Mr Weingartner, this was a great video. I learned alot. Thankyou for the thorough explanation of engine dyno correction factors. It helps to explain why some ridiculously over-corrected engine dyno #'s never translate to 1/4mile mph, nor chassis Dyno numbers. One of our famous old guys, who takes advantage of correction factors to advertise truly questionable numbers, even made a video suggesting HP lost to drive a supercharger should be added back to the total GROSS HP. It gets ridiculous
On your ignition box it's not a rev limiter you are hitting it is a misfire caused by lack of spark energy ..... Because it's programmable it could be phasing on the rotor eating the energy it showed up more on methanol because it's harder to light ... To late to test now but gap the plugs down could help .... But once back in the truck check phasing
The largest difference I`ve seen between real time numbers and corrected nunbers down here in Florida is at best 3% usually less using the STP J-607 corrected power algorithm, there`s like 4 different ones. Those dynos can be made to say anything the operator wants, those numbers are called "advertised" numbers and look very much like your first dyno sheet from the Gaines Grinding people, I consider those advertised numbers only good for bench racing. Accurate information is paramount.
I appreciate a guy that don't cheat his dyno numbers with CF... I work for a guy sometimes that is strait up honest I know exactly what you're talking about. I build a very similar engine to what you have here, mine had 13.2 to1 and brodix trac 1 heads, and was 3.48 stroke and 4.125 bore, made massive tq and 500 hp at 5000 and 597hp peak. Only run it on 110 race gas.
That is one nice SBC. I'd be very proud to have built/designed that engine. People may like to talk smack, but it is not as easy to make that kind of power unless you pay someone who knows how to get it. Another item to note: making high horsepower & torque numbers doesn't equate to low E.T.'s. A drag race vehicle requires numerous components working in concert to make a low/quick E.T. That is one healthy SBC. With the right trans, rear gear & converter it would be an amazingly fun street/strip engine. Thanks for sharing. Terry
Pump E85 can be *up to* 85% ethanol, but is not guaranteed to be that high. Boosted engines really like E85 and methanol, because of their ability to remove heat from the charge air through vaporization, single 75mm LS turbo applications can see 100+ hp gains, easily, going from 93 pump premium, to E85, and more with meth, for exactly the same reason, more timing. You can usually turn up the boost, too. With dedicated methanol fuel systems, no imtercooler is needed, the fuel does all that.
@@timothybayliss6680yeah I thought the same thing as the chemical compound is the same, pump is all made from sugar and the race stuff is corn, pump is 107 and race is 116, all I can refer to is every time I see race ethanol its always boasted as being "made from corn" not sugar so unless they are using mtbe or something along those lines or very high octane unleaded that's all I can refer to.
@@ezmny1387 another thing you MAY be seeing. The gasoline portion of pump e85 is made with cheapest available fuel stock. The gas portion of race e85 is unleaded race fuel, which may account for most of the increase in octane rating
octane doesn't make power unless you were knock limited and the higher octane let you optimize the timing. but in this case he wasn't knock limited on any of the three fuels. I'd be more interested in the calorific value of sugar vs corn E85.
@@bradmcgrath358 Sugar vs corn E85 probably has a lot to do with the fermentation process. Sugar is pure sucrose. Corn has other things in it, and likely requires a few modifications to the formation process.
Sweet results. You're in-line with data I have sitting around. Methanol should be a minimum of 7% more power than any other fuel, just as a baseline. -- A compression optimized setup can be as high as 13% better. About 14:1 compression. (I like 13:1 currently) -- I think methanol is capable of inflating your V.E. values, and it's the only way I can justify the huge power some people get from methanol. The total temperature change offered by methanol is as high as 348F (190C) at 6.3:1 AFR, which implies an air density factor of 1.8. If we can just get HALF of that cooling to happen, there's a 25% power gain. That implies that the fuel is converted to gas phase though, which reduces the total density. -- Another thing I'm considering with methanol is the Ledenfrost effect. An engine with raised ports and a 190 thermostat will have everything above Methanol's boiling point, so the fuel will Ledenfrost off whatever it touches. Ideally, a thin piston height like 1.165".
Direct port methanol injection 60/40 mix with a flex fuel E85 would be a very versatile setup for serious tuners. Could add more timing and boost on the fly just by turning on methanol and filling the tank up with some ethanol
I knew a lot of this already but it's still quite interesting to see the differences on paper. Thanks for doing this study so we could all see it. I've run meth on the race car for, decades-it works, has a lot of advantages but also some disadvantages as well. But I'll still use it.
Not mentioned is the manipulation done to many dynos to make their engines look like they make more power than the competition. I've had a couple of BIG name USA engines, one in particular was a 704" that was claimed to make 1550 HP, it made 1308 HP on our dyno.
I have the MSD digital 6 plus ignition box. I have my rev limiter set to 7800 because it actually kicks in closer to 7300-7400. With the new engine we are going to switch to the MSD Grid.
Glad you explained the way a dyno works and what it actually measures. A lot of people don't understand that the only 2 things a dyno measures are the torque and RPM. The correction factor can be used to try and make all things equal or fudge the numbers. We need to be careful when reviewing dyno sheets.
Very informative 👍 If there was a correction for compression available, a curve showing the potential for the methanol would be interesting. As it was your video is great
Thanks for the video. I guessed 10 hp high on gas, and about 20 ft lbs of torque. I was thinking about 1.35 ft lbs per cid, you were at 1.3. With those heads, I would imagine a cam adjustment could get you to 1.4 ft lbs per cube. Nice engine.
When he turns the dyno cell fan on you hear pretty significant air leaks in the control room. I wonder if the cell is actually under a bit of depression (vacuum) due to insufficient supply air, which would steal some numbers from the engine output.
Great video Eric thanks for sharing. I am glad the E85 carb was close enough to at lest get your testing done. I am guessing all the work I put in it to get decent economy on my 400 did not work well for the 355.
@@WeingartnerRacing This is a very good video with some very good base of information which most are unaware of about fuels and these measurements. Eric am glad You used a 'race' E-85 which is commonly called C-85,[correct ?] which is 85 % ethanol - not like the E-85 at the fuel stations which can be 40% ethanol often in the winter months up to 55-65% ethanol. Do You have access to 100%Ethanol or the racing ethanol which is used in IndyNTT - they had switch to ethanol from methanol since 2007. NASCAR use the racing E-85 or C-85 for their events. It would be interesting for You to perform the same measurements with using racing E-100 . the measurement may be much closer to methanol also. Also, as most re not aware, that both methanol and ethanol have far less carbon in the molecules, and fuel thus far less carbon in the burning resulting in far less carbon deposits, build up on the spark plugs, inside the cylinders, heads, combustion chambers, on the valves, exhaust ports and pipes. =>Thus, the benefits are beyond just the simple measured power improvements too. The combustion result in maintaining cleaner engines components and more consistent performance during longer operation and longer use. -> common 'gasoline' has many higher order hydrocarbon molecules which have much higher carbon content, but nigh higher level power from combustion. -> also similarly another common misconception is using race fuels with high octane via tetra ethyl lead, as with C100-16. the higher amount of carbon is worse with the tetra-ethyl lead. The purpose of higher octane is to slow the burning, as require with higher compression, It does not provide more power nor good for lower compression nor with induction, air compression using turbochargers or superchargers. -> as we know the addition of NO2, nitrous-oxide into the fuel increases the resultant power from combustion, and burns very rapidly, thus must be controlled properly since can burn so rapidly it nearly explodes. -> would be interested to see if You or someone can perform Hydrogen injection and measure the power increases from combustion -? since Hydrogen combustion [H2 + O2 + heat] is the most essential power with the hydrocarbon molecules. All The Best Sincerely
@@newtonfirefly3584wow, I just learned some things reading your post. I think you just touched on things that every hot rodder should know or at least try to understand. I’m thinking that 90% of the engine people I know really don’t understand octane/compression relations and how to utilize them together to get a viable outcome. If you know where I can get more information/videos that go into this more in-depth, I would appreciate it very much. Thanks again! Tony
@@grendel.6.531 Your comment is a rare, positive awareness; also much appreciated. Am not able to properly asses, evaluate the actual portion of individuals which lack these basics. However, from the many videos, channels which are certainly limited, a large portion of them are clearly lacking, unaware, confused along with basic distorted ideas, concepts, information about fuel, compression, ignition, along with lubrication, proper-optimum operating temperature, air flow for the engine along with aerodynamics, traction, mechanical structures, forces, electrical, electronics, full use of a computer including ECU-ECM-PCM, TCM. The few which has some various correct basics are immediately apparent, obvious as those which lack. Thus, all proper, professional racing teams have necessary experts including engineers for proper design, development, racing, results, All The Best, Sincerely
There is nothing basic about trying to explain how air works. Something that 99% of the time is invisible requires logical imagination. Well done on the explanation on correction factors. The best take away is stick with the same dyno, and compare testing to past readings from only that dyno.
I would get with Mark on the methanol carb set up. I bet he can tweak the emulsion to give you the best of both worlds, rich down low and leaner up top
Thank you for the explanations. I am hear to learn and this is my half hour TV show. Further I hate searching for someone that has done something I am looking to do but then they leave out all the details to know if it really is what I want planning to do.
Excellent video!! Thank you for doing this!! The only thing I didn't like was all the darn commercials that RU-vid put in the video there must have been 8 to 10 of them
Its a really nice 358 no doubt One of most important things I look at is how much fuel the engine used, you can calculate how much horsepower engine makes from the amount of fuel used
Theoretically yes.... if the air/fuel ratio is perfect. Where the bsfc really comes in - is when someone is trying to claim HP numbers that don't match anywhere close to the amount of fuel used. It's just another data point to take into consideration. I'm not worrying about questioning Eric's dyno results.
What are 3 problems you've had with methanol, and how long did it take for them to happen? -- I'm focusing on stopping corrosion. -- I'm not going to do anything about getting methanol in the oil, because I'm focused on running a 0.95-1.05 lambda 6.0-6.5:1 Air fuel ratio. I'm on the renewable energy side of things. We want to use methanol to replace gas on boats, because if the boat sinks, the methanol is safer than diesel and better than batteries.
@@Dr_Xyzt Only three? Here are three immediate problems you'll need to consider. First is storage, you'll burn about 4 times the amount of methanol so storage and weight and cost need to be considered. Second, methanol is hygroscopic so keeping the fuel "dry" is an issue. Third, methanol is very flammable and is hard to see when it ignites. This is one main reasons why boats like diesel fuel as it is much harder to ignite. There are other issues of course but cost, weight, and safety I believe would make methanol a bad choice for everyday marine use. It's an interesting idea from your perspective though.
@@paullatham3411 I see what you're getting at. The racer guys run a low air fuel ratio. 4.2-5.7:1, which is where the quadruple consumption comes from. -- I'm focused on emissions compliant stuff, so near-stoichiometric is a requirement. -- I'm committed to safety. Have you had any leaks where a flexible hose connects to a solid one? Have you developed leaks on vehicle tank caps or had the caps seize with corrosion? -- Did corrosion fill any of your vehicle tanks with particles? -- Has your fuel been stored for a period longer than 3 months? -- Has the vehicle sat for a period longer than 2 weeks and experienced an issue?
@@Dr_Xyzt Ok, here are some thoughts I have about this project. Us racers run about 3.8 to 4.2 a/f. At 5.7 my engine runs too hot so the extra fuel keeps temps down. (Something about 25psi of boost may have something to do with that😎) Stoich on a gas engine is 14.7 a/f and Stoich on methanol is 6.5 a/f so you’re going to need about 2.5 times storage to achieve the same time/distance calculation. And you’ll need to use appropriately sized lines to ensure adequate fuel flow. Storage: stainless steel and anodized aluminum is your friend and I use an aluminum fuel tank anodized inside and out. I use ptfe hose for my flexible lines. Also use A/N fittings so you don’t need o-rings wherever possible. If you need to use a o-ring make sure it’s viton. Storage tips: keep the tanks as full as you can. Air (water vapor) is the enemy. Make sure the tanks are air tight and sealed. I’ve stored 55 gallon drums in my garage for 6 months or so with the drums sitting on 2x4 blocks. My garage is insulated but not conditioned and I have had no problems. You have to provide tank ventilation when the engine is running but I have a ball valve on my vent line that seals everything up when I’m finished for the day. (Be sure to open the valve when the engine is running or you’ll collapse the tank. Don’t ask me how I know) As an aside I don’t know what emissions system you’ll need to address as methanol is not a hydrocarbon. As always YMMV. Cheers!
Great video Eric. A little off topic, I noticed on your engine that you have a re-routed cooling system. We used to plumb them like you have when I built circle track engines back in the 90s. Any chance you could do a video about this subject alone with some data??
How can I find out if I'll have enough Piston to valve clearance before I order a cam, mill the head, thinner head gasket, or different pistons? Can I check my numbers with the stock setup and calculate it? Do I have to factor in the angle of the valve to the deck surface? Id like to build a high compression 5.3 but I'm afraid that I won't be able to run the correct cam after making everything closer together.
Well..... Two things. During this video. I could not make out any numbers on the sheets. So I really could not follow along with seeing the results. But its fine. I got the idea. Still good to watch. So thanks. The other thing was. I must have been drinking when I made my power guesses. I clearly didnt pay enough attention to the combo or I would have guess'd much higher than i did. Oh well. Thats life. Anyway. Thank you. Good watch as usual.
The biggest benefit of E85, but especially Methanol ever more so, is not just that in a gas engine it can make more power - but the fact that running Meth allows you to crank your compression way up and advance the timing way more than you can on gas; and THAT is when you start seeing power numbers separated by hundreds. So, yes, on the same exact engine, gas may make 500, meth may make 520; but on gas, you may have the highest compression and spark advance you can, and 500 is all she got. Take that engine, shave the heads, swap the pistons, advance the ignition, and now you can't use gas - but you can use methanol, and you're making 700hp instead of 520.
How long ago was the original Dyno run ? It used old J607 correction not the current J1349 these are set by SAE to help make sure the HP reads the same from Dyno to Dyno .... The major difference is temperature
Uncorrected HP numbers vs atmospheric conditions and corrections at any race track or dyno make perfect sense. Adding HP numbers from internal inertial weight is garbage. It is the same as folks wanting to add supercharger parasitic drive loss back to the total.
806 heads are from early 5.7l Camaro firebird. They are supposed to be the worst ls head. They also use perimeter valve covers, different from 706/862/243/799/317. I wouldn't bother with them.
I enjoyed your explanation of a dyno, but I wanted to hear the hp difference between these 3 fuels! ( that's what the title was? ) I got gas and meth, but no numbers on e85?
Hey bud I got a set of AFR 195CC heads renegade cnc, the springs that come with them are to wear and was wondering if the afr-8000 springs will work I believe they're white stripe solid roller, my springs are 1.270 od, white stripped are 1.550 od
I gotta comment because of my years of experience with methanol in kart racing. I know, y'all are saying tiller motor etc whatever....pay attention you may learn something here....I have 0 knowledge of E85 but I've always told people why bother, why not just run str8 methanol???? Now let me say methanol feels like a second engine when compared to gas. Point number 2, you was taljing about how methanol made more low end torque, let me tell you a trick I use to do on starts and restarts to drag and pull off from everybody else. I ran a Tillotson carb which has a high and low adjustment screw. Just like any old school chainsaw, if any of you have ever tuned a chainsaw then you know what I'm referring to. Except on karts you adjust with your fingers, no screw driver needed because you may need to tweak while racing. Ok I would open up or way richen up the low side or low jet on starts and restarts with methanol. This extra fuel would allow me to pull off, and by the end of straight away I'd turn it back in to race setting. Only 1/4 turn or half at most is all thats needed. Also with methanol I had carbs so rich when idling methanol would be dripping out the exhaust, and yes this was a race winning engine or sometimes 2nd at worst. How does this translate to cars, trucks. Try going way rich with methanol at lower rpms, say the lower half of your band and see if it pulls harder and your et's or track times drop. Methanol when way rich at lower rpms makes a ton of lower end torque, try it, what do you have to lose. Now fir 2nd half of rpm band you need to lean back out, try it everybody and see.....
What electronic fuel pump for the methanol pull would you use for the gph rate needed. From what I understand it would need around 110gph on methanol at what ever psi your carb is set at ?
Hey Eric, does that methanol carb have replaceable air jets? Thinking upping air bleed size another .002-003" might help tailor that A/F curve to leave it fat in the middle, but lean it a bit up top... ...but if you're not Superman, I'm not even the Green Lantern (and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn in the last month) - so I don't feel comfortable recommending you hack a non-replaceable bleed. (but, if it's a removable piece... cheap/easy to try) Hope you're recovering well from the doctor stuff!
Only dyno numbers that matter are raw numbers. Correction factors can be manipulated to read whatever the operator wants...Raw numbers can't be argued as easily....
I'm kind of wondering how the comparisons would have turned out if the best doable compression ratio was used for each fuel... I've read that in the case of methanol, the compression ratio can be up around 20:1 or higher!
I wish when we click on a video that says Gas vs E85 Vs Methanol, that we could get straight talk???? Instead of spread sheets we can't read, just tell us the HP differences between theses fuels? Sorry if i'm missing something?
The dyno sheets are in the video showing the difference. It’s closer to the end. Most people never make it to the end of the video. I also say out loud the numbers and differences at that point. Got make it all the way through not first 30seconds.
True E85 will make a little better power at all RPM. Sadly, E85 doesn't really mean 85% ethanol, it can be various ratios of ethanol to hydrocarbons. I'd stray away from it for carbureted engines.
Ethanol and Methanol have different stochiometric air/fuel ratios, I'm not sure how this ratio changes with E85, but do you think this would change the power numbers using the Methanol carburetor to feed E85? Or did you rejet for that?
@@Ragnarok1979 Well not everyone is in your area. Pump E85 can legally go down to 53%. and I would guess your 87% to be a faulty test. Also, not everyone has a mild setup like yours. Glad it's working out for you.
@@taylorsrus9543 you guess wrong. I know people who have tested pump E85 as high as 90%. I don't know where you're getting mild from, but E85 can handle high compression and/or high boost. The only thing special about "race" e85 is the sticker on the pail
@@Ragnarok1979 If that was an accurate test, then whatever that fuel was is out of spec as it does not meet the standards of E85 which is 51% to 83%. Mild is based on your dyno video, but maybe that was your break-in run or baseline. Either way, enjoy.
