As a consultant engineer who as part of our provided services designs EVC installations to go into new build flatted developments I can say that to do this properly, all above board and correct in every manner is very difficult. Something many people overlook is a privately owned cable going through common areas. You are then into the realms of legal requirements to put in place the right agreements to allow the cable to go through common areas. The next issue is safe isolation, if the cable is protected from the private dwelling and someone in the future is working within a riser etc. you must provide safe isolation within the common area. Another thing to consider is that this development probably has an ADMD of 2kVA per flat, what happens when infrastructure designed for a far smaller load has to start accepting EVC connections into multiple flats? Where the developer wants to include EVC, generally we put a feeder pillar in the carpark and it is adopted by a back office service such as one Rolex run, to pay the bills, meter the power and invoice the user accordingly, basically it sucks to have a EV and live in a flat where you might find you cannot just have your own power supply to your own EVC.
Having your own supply to your own bay has all sorts of issues down the line if the owner of the bay doesn't have a vehicle and wants to rent it out. Using a communal/landlords supply to disassociate the parking bay from the property makes the most sense - just use a freely available payment gateway (eg. "Tap Electric") that reimburses the owner of the communal supply for the EV usage and everyone is happy. The owner of the communal supply doesn't need to know or care who uses the chargepoints, just leave that to the payment gateway to worry about.
another possible way of doing it could be to maybe replace the fused isolators in the service cupboard with a small 2 way fuse board, feed the flat with 63A (the flats appear to be fed in 16mm² T&E so 80A is pushing it a bit anyway) then 32A for the charger, if surge protection is being fitted then will need a slightly bigger board 4 maybe 5 way, suppose depends on the space you may have available, definitely think the Easee Chargers are the right option for this install too!
@@nzer19 As the owner of an Easee One charger I have contacted Easee twice. Both times via their website and both times have had a response within hours. Can't understand why you would have a problem.
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Concern from the routing I have is taking supplies from one property through another. Going through landlords is one thing but going through another dwelling I wouldn’t recommend. That would all need agreement and would recommend clear labelling of where cables fed from at more than just each end, where visible in loft of apartments
Absolutely. If flat had exclusive use of loft space above it, may need to vary terms of lease to run another flat's cable through it. Else next owner could just remove it.
This was FANTASTIC. Although not in the UK, it gave me some great background info in moving forward with electric vehicle charging, which I hope to do in the future. Nice one!
well explained Jordan, we recently done a similar job and found that moving the electrical meters downstairs to be an easier option to running cabling externally from the building.
So basically in a flat with air-source, heat-pump heating, electric cooking and an electric shower - the only allowable EV would be a Scalextric (at the lower speeds only)
@@alanhat5252 which creates its own problems. If all 118 of the flats in my complex move to 3-phase, with electric air-source heating and EV chargers, then the small (half-garage sized) substation that services our flats would need to be upgraded to twice what it currently is (if not more). Problem there is that the land simply doesn't exist to allow such an upgrade. We would either need the council demolish the local swimming baths, or six (or more) residents would need to completely sacrifice their parking bays.
@@skfalpink123 that's an interesting conundrum. My first thought is that if your current substation is single-phase (I find this unlikely) it would be trebled to add the other 2 phases which would probably add sufficient extra capacity without increasing the scale of any component. My next thought is to question why the substation is on-site at all given that they can fail in a most spectacular manner, possibly leading to a Grenfell-style style scenario. How far away is the nearest sensible alternative site for a substation? Modern electronics can replace transformers, drastically reducing the footprint & adding management capabilities like Voltage control & selective circuit switching, I believe they're cheaper too.
The red fuses mean that the supply is fused elsewhere. Its not the fuse in the switchfuse which protects it. There is individual fuses in the service head! Which is why the head is so big and wide!!
This only works if..... 1. One lives in private apartment/flats. 2. One has assigned parking spots. 3. One has permission from landlord 4. One does not live in high rise block. 5. One does not live in Social/Council Housing. 6. None of the above resolves Real World range anxiety, I drive an ICE Petrol Mercedes which gets a guaranteed 350 mile/tank not upto 350 miles dependent on using lights/heater/Rado/heated screens etc. 7. More cost on top of the purchase/lease of an EV. So many issues with owning an EV including the UK only has 5% excess electricity on the grid overall. Using the 'Green Agenda' to justify owning an EV does not work as most of the UK Electricity is not Green power. All the above comes from someone who would switch to an EV tomorrow if all of the above issues were eradicated.
EV ownership is going to become a lot more expensive. The government cannot go without the petrol/diesel duty and tax going into the coffers. They have already talked about separate meters for domestic and EV charging. Road charging based on your 'car' calling home and telling whoever how many miles you did and was it congested. They will take the money right out of your bank
For setups like these, someone should make a switchfuse unit which also provides a second output via a DP RCD, so you could effectively split the flat's tails without needing much more space in the distribution area.
That DNO supply head looks like it has additional unprovisioned capacity. Would suspect the DNO could upgrade the management company's supply to a 3-phase relatively easily in this property. Could then put in a 3-phase board and some faster chargers all fed from the main DB using back office billing. Probably wouldn't even need to go into the flats.
I was thinking this. Why not just run them all from that meter cupboard. You can still run each charger off each flat's feed so you don't have to mess about with a billing system, but now the cables all run together from the single point without having to do seperate cabling in each flat. If the supply needed to switched off for maintenance of some kind in the future it makes it easier if the switches are all there together as well.
Just a small correction Jordan... The protection is inside the 3ph service head box below the redhead units. The switchfuses are to protect the cables to the flats :)
This was really interesting. One of the reasons I moved to a house from a flat is that the management company didn't want to install EV chargers, but that was before the grants for more than 5 spaces (the whole development would have about 50 spaces) so maybe they'd be more receptive now. If I ever look at moving into a flat, I might run this video by them if they aren't into the idea. However, since I'm still renting, I went for a charging solution where I can take the charging infrastructure with me. I have a commando (blue) socket installed and an Ohme Go charger to charge the car. When I leave, I can just bring the charger with me, and the cabling for the socket I can cheaply get removed and move to the new house (Unless the landlord decides to pay me what I spent on installation).
I spent 2 years arguing with and then replacing my factor so I could just ask my fellow owners if we can install a charger in our space. Finally got the vote and have approval. Also going to the Easee charger for the 4g connection and fortunately there is a run from our 4th floor flat down to the bin store that's 8m from our space. The only real issue is having a trench dug for the final part of the run. All in with grant it's £2,500 for us to get the install but something I feel confident we would get back from the sale of the property in the future.
@@aljames7345 Sounds like a challenging situation but we'll done for persevering with it. Maybe you can get some others I the building to join in with it. If you got 10 installed rather than 1 I'm sure the cost each would be lower.
I've been after a point at my property for ages but always hit a brick wall when it comes down to getting approval from the landlord, without it costing easily £400-£500. Then theres the cost of having the point installed. The best option I found was PodPoints Apartments system, but the cost is still insane. New flats are not built for EV charging at all. I've given up.
Great Video thanks for making it. You were talking about grants but said you needed 5 for biggest grant. Could you make it 5 by simply adding one charger on building visitor parking spot and on landlords circuit.
This might be a dumb question as an American, but is there not "guest" parking? They could install 5 chargers and have the one extra for guests, and either use a public charging network (ChargePoint here in the US) or allow the guest charger to use any resident's RFID card. That seems like it would greatly simplify getting the grant and the work completed.
If there is guest parking it would be simpler to still have the 4 chargers 1 per apt and just have a guest who needed to charge park in the residents spot and the resident in the guest spot. Also avoids the issue of the LL having to pay full install cost for what would presumably be a very infrequently used residents charger.
Ask the DNO to upgrade the single phase Landlords supply into a three phase supply? And fit a 3phase CU in riser above? And do the back office payments etc. Looks like there are spare ways from that 'grey box' - thats a Lucy multi service distribution board, MSDB. Saves faffing around with multiple flat CUs and the routes. MSDB- from left to right; first 3 ways are L1, next 3 are L2, and L3 gets the next 4, looks to be a spare one of each 😁 Nice vid. Cheers for the content👍
This is a very timely video! How do you cope when there is no wall to which to attach the charging point? E.g. the wall belongs to someone else or - as in my case - the parking bay is across a pavement from the flat (so a pedestal is also out). You also mentioned that you can only get the grant if you have an EV, but that's a chicken-and-egg situation: many people won't get an EV without also having a charging point installed simultaneously, and there are long lead times for vehicles. So is there any flexibility on the installation time and having an EV time?
Four sub-switchboards can be placed in the cupboard on the ground floor. In sub-switchboards, we can separate the cables to the charger and home. And install fuses, RCDs, etc. As a result, there will be less voltage drop on the wires.
From an aerial installer you would have to be careful running high current cables parallel to the aerial cables on the cable tray in that riser cupboard, as it could cause a lot of interference.
There will be main dno fuses inside the main 3 phase incomer. These may well be 60A. The switchfuses are there as the meter tails exceed 3m, they belong to the customer, not the dno.
Interesting video, I live in a block of 9 flats and as an owner have a directors share of the management company and its financial affairs, what's not so great about the £850 per parking spot is the electricity from the management meter supply, I doubt that would be fed on the 7p tariff unlike my own consume unit through my own supplier, so any saving of the £850 compared to the £350 would be lost in a matter of months due to higher cost of tariff per KWH on the management supply. Correct me if 'm wrong.
Thanks for a very interesting video! When you have the opportunity please could you do a video for a large block of flats where running cables (power or data) from each flat to the parking spaces just isn't feasible. Lots of people will be in this sort of situation who'd like to get an electric vehicle, but getting a charging point installed seems really difficult. Many thanks.
From a technical point that's actually a really easy case, there are a number of chargers (like the aforementioned easee) that are designed to be connected in groups of up to one hundred to one supply and then meter the usage. The real issue there is to get the management company/landlord to have those installed, manage them and handle the billing. Sadly this is nothing an electrician can help you with. But we are approaching the point where landlords will realise that trying to rent out a parking space without a charger is the same as trying out a flat without a bathroom. In about 30 years, when EVs make 80+% of all cars on the street...
@@HenryLoenwind look at Tap Electric for "free" (transaction fee only) billing - they're an Easee partner, and don't charge a monthly per chargepoint subscription (plus transaction fee) like Monta, Fuuse etc.
Regarding the WiFi/Internet issue, if you use EV ultra cable with the CAT5 cable, use one pair for your CT and 2 pairs for Ethernet, just use pins 1,2,3 & 6 when crimping a RJ45 end on, it limits the speed to 100 Mbps, rather than full gigabit but still works
Another Q around funding... could they have had FIVE charging points - 4 with actual chargers (£850) and then one that came off the landlord supply that was just provisioned? That way they'd get the max funding and also have a spare zone in case they ever extended the car park, or made the bays slightly thinner to fit more parking?
In Germany we have meter cabinets installed in the utility room of apartment buildings with enough space (DIN rails) above the meters to mount the backup-fuses for the consumer units and three-phase RCDs and MCBs for EV chargers there. Of course there are also challenges to run the cables to the charging points, but it is a lot easier to get the power from one place instead of the individual flats. That also prevents the expenditure of providing a billing system, if every parking space belongs to a specific flat.
I live in a small apartment block. We are considering installing EV system and found Jordans explanation incredibly informative. I am sure their are many pitfalls however the issues requiring consideration are clearly laid out. It's a pity for us that Artisan are not on Solihull? Keep up the great work.
Interesting video Jordan😊 You mentioned the owner of the tarmac not wanting it cut up but the owner of the fence and back wall could have an issue with you drilling into it? Helpful explanation of the grants too 😊👍
Also, if my lease gives me exclusive use of the loft space above my flat, you can't run another flat's cable through it. (At least not without relevant clause in lease else subsequent owner of that flat could remove the cable!)
You mentionead the EasEE charger with a back-office system to run from the landlord's supply or more likely a dedicted one, but does the EasEE have the required MID approved metering required if charging people for electricity? Also, you mentioned adding to the electricity price to cover costs, AIUI this is illegal for general use ( e.g. landlord charging tenant) unless you are a licensed supplier - is this different for EV charging?
Don't Wallbox do a system that satisfies this? They are controlled/monitored by a Commander unit.
2 года назад
In Belgium with our very strange tax system, your employer is encouraged to pay a part of your salary in the form of giving you a leasing car and pay for all the fuel (!). When EV became a thing, the charging point manufacturers immediately made a consortium and defined an open standard for communcation between charging points and a back-office system : the OCPP protocol. The charging point are of course equipped with MID approved metering. There is a free market for back-office services. Usually for a company car the back-office is configured to have your company refund your home electricity costs needed to charge the company car. I think about all EV charging points sold in Belgium have MID metering and are OCPP compliant. Beware domestic installations in Belgium are always TT with local earth so the protection is more simple than in UK from that point of view (no PEN fault detection stuff here).
My understanding is that the rule about reselling having to be at cost only applies to supplies for domestic use. I'm pretty sure a public EV charger doesn't count as domestic use, but I have no idea how a charger in a block of flats would be treated.
I believe you said these were owned by separate tenants (leasehold) rather than the landlord for the whole block, so how is it acceptable to run another flats supply through another’s loft space ? The fence looks to be owned by residents of other properties, the brick wall you want to fix the chargers to looks to be owned by someone else (possibly a garage), all of these issues need to be addressed first. Looks a nightmare install though, good luck.
I would have thought that a wayleave would need to be obtained from the lease holder of the flat that will have two cables going through their loft. Whether there is a charge for the wayleave or not will be up to the leaseholders to discuss between themselves.
I live in a terraced house (tenant), and both my supply and CU are inside the property, in a cupboard under the stairs. The floor is all concrete, and access to the top floor from that cupboard is very limited. It's absolutely impossible to pull the cable in any reasonable hidden way beside just dropping it through the living room, and then go outside via my landlord's garden and then to our small dedicated parking lot. So, I'm never getting a proper charger in this building, despite it being only 15y old 😪
Really interesting and useful for those of us in flats, especially as I'm in flats with a few large buildings and possibility of the home owners association putting in five or more units in some of the shared parking spaces. Unfortunately, none of the spaces have walls nearby so then it's a case of how much extra does it cost for pedestal installs and are there any that actually look good in a garden setting with grass areas near the parking bays. I can imagine a lot of people being upset by the look of some of those poles and huge black boxes. Ideally, the charger would be something telescopic that disappeared into the ground when not in use! Maybe one day.
Pedestals are cheap enough it’s realy the digging of trenches do cable runs etc . All the pedestals need is like a 600x600x600 hole filled with concrete ( approx)
@@makg4655 There are pre-made foundations that just need to be lowered into the ground, but yes, that size is about right. And, nettlesoup, multi-unit chargers are usually not "big black boxes", just google for the aforementioned easee chargers.
Looks like an ideal scenario for thieves to steal all the exterior exposed cabling that will appear if charging points become the norm .That surely will be a major problem in the future .
Why not install a smaller (garage) consumer unit with surge protection in the supply cupboard for each dwelling, instead of running cables all the way up to the flat? I used to be a Wylex rep and would have thought that this would be the easier option? Good video by the way.
If this block of flats were a little bigger, and it therefore wasn't really possible (or convenient) to run cables from each flat's consumer unit, could you not take power just after the fused isolator via a henley block and have 4 little consumer units just for the EV chargers in that main cupboard?
@@artisanelectrics as suggested by a couple of other commenters, rather than Henley blocks, a neater solution could be to replace the KMF switchfuses with small CUs - load them with a DIN rail mounted fuse carrier for the 80A fuse, main switch and MCBs/RCDs to cover the flat and charger feeds. This way you can take your charger supplies all from the same cupboard and put the CTs in there too as you can monitor the overall current being drawn by the flat and its respective charger. P.S. the fuse in the KMF is not the only fuse protecting the flats. There will be individual cutout fuses inside the large service head below. There have to be otherwise that landlord supply, having a red link in its cutout, would be unprotected!
@@timbo19 thats all good...but 80amp fuse on din rail with 32amp mcb means the 100amp main switch is over its rating. Better to fit a 63amp fuse, 32amp type A rcbo and 100amp main switch or 125amp to be safe. We always over engineer our installs. Also use quality switch gear like hager and check with there techincal that it would still meet there type approval adding a din rail fuse!! If not a another approach required
Interesting, I hadn't really thought it being reasonably feasible to run power from the apartments themselves but... sure, then (at least for this kind of low-rise). At least it's straightforward for the billing part.
Another question... If one grant covers 5 charging points and gives double the grant money. Why not do 4 for the flats and one public with a back office payment system, like you were talking about? Is the cost of that system more than the difference of the grant money? Because in my mind it would be a win win. Get more grant money and be able to charge for the public parking charger.
Great videos and straight forward important information. Im from New Zealand and some things are similar but seeing the chargers and features are the best tips to take away. Interesting that you didn't mention a new connection to the street grid for this?
I assume there is no space in the main meter cupboard for a second EV dedicated consumer unit for each flat to reduce EV cable runs? Or could you use the riser cupboard to site dedicated EV Consumer units for at least some of the flats? In that way you could leave the consumer units in each / some of the flats untouched?
I think this is the best way. running cables inside flat is horroble. this way u can run all cables from loft to down. And no need to get complicated charging system. How big is the main fuse for the house? 4x 80A =320A? I would like to install chargers with active load balancers- (to the main cable). this way u dont blown the main fuse when every flat is using 80A.
😂 😂 Nice little safety check on the main buzz bar with the he power on. Even if it is a insulated screwdriver, noticed on more than a few videos someone pokes around a live consumer unit.
@@stupot_64 That would be clever right? A major developer we do M&E design for simply assigns it to one of the bays, then lets the residents fight for it. I am not joking.
@@peterpeterson9903 ... while you could let the neighbors fight over it, who pays the utility bill if they start using it? OTOH, I suppose the landlord could just flip the breaker off till it's sorted out.
Why is there no segregation of the AC and Comms. In Australia its 150mm or a durable barrier, so conduit. Yet I see 220v and coax sitting on-top of each other. Cheers keep up the good work.
Very interesting. Obviously electric vehicle infrastructure is a lot more advanced in the UK than it is where I now live Qld Australia. Still not big here yet. The scale of the country and the distances involved and let's face it the urban travel capabilities of most of the current electric vehicles make them not viable in a lot of situations. Plus the things are still stupidly dear considering what they are. Another factor here is how green is running an electric vehicle if your power is coming from coal. But enjoyed watching what is happening in my old home.
@@stupot_64 could be and then with rfid badge that each tenant would have could be charged to their account on some daily rate. Seems plausible anyway.
One of the biggest things to consider which I don't belived was mentioned is that from a user point of view it would likely be advantageous to have it connected to your supply rather than the landlord supply as you can choose the rate of the supply (for example have cheaper overnight rates etc).
We have 110 flats & no numbered spaces & sharing will never work on an estate. But sending Managing Agents your link - after Ive planned Leaseholders EV spaces - rented flats will be without !! Plus the 100 houses - there is not enough Electric cable power before estate goes boom. Very interesting, our spaces are far away from block but maybe you can get electric from the light cables ?? Damn not Cambridgeshire either just down though 😁
probably just the way it's usually done... with fire rated caulk and conduit for penetrations. A job like this will absolutely need to be inspected when finished.
In that install, was the landlord supply not fused? You pointed out it has a red head in the DNO termination, but it didn’t appear to go via its own switched fuse holder. Just curious if that’s ok?
The main fuses are in the main multi service cutout below so it's fused in there it's only accessed by the DNO the red links are for meter operators so it's fused before the red links
7:24 no one does that anyway aswell… Install a distribution block after the main switch and install a small RCD/Breaker/Surgeprotectionboard that feeds the charger and you‘re done!
Very useful thank you. I live in a second floor flat with consumer unit in the flat and the meter on the ground floor. I have had two survey quotes done and neither mentioned the consumer unit and the need to run cables from it, yet in your video you will be doing just that. Is there a way to avoid having a wired connection between the consumer unit and the meter? Thanks
Thanks for the update on grants etc. It becomes a full-time job just to keep track of all the changes in our industry. I'm curious as to why, when talking about max demand, you didn't qualify it by saying that the possible problem of excessive load could be overcome by the use of load balancing with a CT clamp, or in the case of the Easee charger - an Easee Equaliser.
From a technical and sustainability point of view: Choosing the consumer units in the apartments as a distribution point is such poor practice, IMHO. You're installing loads of extra cable runs, wasting copper. You'll have a need to increase the diameter of the cable because of the long runs, again wasting copper. And you're loading the existing tails with lots of extra power, generating heat, rather than charging a car. I've seen installations where the cable runs ended up being close to 100m long, whereas a connection from the distribution area would have only taken 25 to 30 meters. Imagine the amount of power and copper wasted in such installations! And it only adds complexity, as regulations now start to dictate a means of safety disconnects of all EV chargers in a parking garage by pressing a single safety button. Imagine the complexity involved once you need to start running back signaling wires to all these apartments over these long 100m, hard to access, runs. So, despite the complexity in using the landlord connection, or the distribution area, I think there could be a lot more effort involved in making that one work. It would be a much more sustainable solution in many respects.
Thanks for this video, as a flat owner it’s been very educational in terms of the practicalities but being in Scotland I’m not sure how relevant the regulatory side is. I’m in the unfortunate position of having the furthest space from the block for flats so good to know it is doable, albeit going EV is are the furthest thing from my mind at the moment!
It probably is not doable is the thing. You would not be able to freely run a cable through any common areas without a lot of red tape. Find my comment on this video in the comments section and you will receive some insight.
If the parking is nowhere near the flats then they need a separate power supply, but installer prices never allow for this and the management company and land owner have to give permission and won't.
Are there any "ownership" issues with running cables for other flats through the loft space of just one of them? If you can run them all together, I'd use the "dummy" drain pipe as a 65mm conduit, although you'd need some decent support at the top.
Depends on what it says in the Title Deeds. I used to have a top floor flat with a loft and it was stated in my Title Deeds that I had to grant reasonable access to my loft for maintenance issues. For example the communal TV aerial was in my loft and all of the Virgin Media cables for the flats ran through my loft. So whilst legally it was my loft it was also in my Title Deeds that I have to provide access if maintenance is required for these things, also provide access for roof repairs etc. So yeah really depends what the top floor flats title deeds says.
6:12 why not put a "henly block' in after that main switch fuse, then you won't have to bother wireing via the attic of every flat back down To the ground
As you would be installing a new circuit you would need to complete a DEI certificate. This means the ccu installed in the escape route would need to be fire rated. 💷💷💷💷💷
One question I have is the MD ,should the correct process of calculation of MD should be done by an amp meter. I know that part of an eicr inspection must use a meter to measure the max demand using a amp meter. In many cases it's calculated only.
If an EV was a viable form of transport, it shouldnt need subsidies or tax breaks. We certainly shouldnt be forced into buying an EV by governmental policy/laws
If petrol and diesel was a viable form of transport, it would need the billions in taxpayer funded subsidies handed to the oil industry each year..... And you you won't be *forced* to buy an EV. You will always have the choice whether you want one or not.
They're adding effectively 1.5x another flat. 120Amps sustained demand. Has this been run through the service supplier. What is their spare capacity for the block or region? Middle of winter with backup electric heaters going, every device on and running plus another 120Amps is there adequate supply? Once done a new tenant would be denied a shower, air-conditioning, instant hot water heaters (electric) and this installation effectively limits any tenants options for modification of their home, without massive upgrading expense, that THEY will get hit by, because all spare capacity went on a charger they may not even use. It's an usual flat having gas, most I've seen are 100% electric and therefore have electric heaters (sone overnight storage heaters) a shower 7-10.5Kw and maybe a large or multiple small instant hot water heaters? Capacity disappears on most flats... This is not a typical installation... Wouldn't a new supply to a custom distribution point (separate to the flats) with independent meters be more reasonable. Then they simply hire out the space and charger independently of the flat without altering the flats electrics at all... 120 Amps is the equivalent of building a large house, you'd think with that kind of demand a new supply makes sense? You're not talking peak 120 Amps your talking sustained 120 Amps and all drawn through those flats and their wiring... If there are any weak spots or problems I wouldn't want to find out the hard way? The next logical thing after deciding and agreeing on fitting these charges is redesigning the parking bays as it's far easier to move the cars than the chargers. They've already come to agreement on the chargers it seem logical to group them together and design around them? As for security RFID tags are so easy to copy it's ridiculous to consider it security. Physical locking security is required otherwise you're going to end up in contention over the bills. If the point is rented you give the tenant a key to access it. Plus CCTV would seem essential to support any billing or billing contention. Which means more wiring. Plus with such a major investmemt security is only reasonable to prevent vandalism.
