Eliza Mondegreen: Gender as an Idiom of Distress 

I had a 13 year old client introduce herself as a “trans man”. I asked what it meant personally to be a “trans man”, I was told to “ask Siri”, because Siri would “explain it”. This individual had no idea what to say when asked to speak from personal thoughts, feelings, and experience.

The sort of "evil genius" of our economic system is that it can "monetize" and therefore "profit" off of whatever "idioms of distress" happen to currently be at the forefront of our cultural and societal angst and despair. A wonderful conversation - thank you to both of you!

Oh gosh I SO relate! I’m a former lifelong Dem who actually knocked on doors as a neighborhood leader at one time. I am completely politically homeless now and am saddened that so many sources for news and the institutions I always admired and supported have fallen in complete alignment with critical theory. It’s been super disconcerting finding myself here. And like your guest I fell down a rabbit hole delving into all of this trying to understand why this is happening. I seem to care far more than most people I know, but truly they would if they followed what is happening. It’s a tough place to be. Thank you for providing this space.

Great discussion from two critical thinkers. Thanks to both of you! Many great points mentioned, including the need for clear speech and language. Much of this gender nonsense is people purposefully making language vague and confusing to fool people and further an agenda. Keep speaking the truth. This channel is thriving.

Eliza is absolutely brilliant. Her writing has really helped me to find clarity on gender issues, and opened my eyes to the madness going on behind the gender affirming care narrative. I hope she knows she is a vital voice in helping others make sense of these issues. Thank you so much for having her on, Leslie.

I participated deeply in gender critical as well as many women’s only subs…I contributed to many of these women’s subs for years…one by one, I was blocked from every single one, simply for holding my ground (in a kind, gentle, very communicative way, and I was open to conversation-none of the mods (who ended up including men calling themselves women) were able to converse about what exactly was hateful and bigoted about my words…. When I think of those times all I see is Men Silencing Women and Belittling our experience

Sensitivity competition: The Princess and the Pea. We knew she was a princess because of her sensitivity.

This is brilliant. It's special to hear two thoughtful women discuss dysphoria contagion in quiet tones devoid of aggression. This talk will definitely get shared on my FB page -- where one or two people may find it addresses a yearning for truth that ideology leaves unsatisfied. Eliza possesses the talents and skills to enlighten without the mic drop at the end. Brava to you both.

I like that: 'idiom of distress" the idea of creating a language among a group of people that might be internally consistent but has no mooring in the greater world. "I don't feel comfortable" Here's this condition that makes people uncomfortable ergo, that explains me." and continues into a circular argument. "I'm trans, trans are uncomfortable (in the world) , I'm uncomfortable therefore I'm trans" It's really a kind of hysteria.

Any time I see Eliza is being interviewed I try to watch/listen. She’s brilliant and has such depth of knowledge on the roots and on the current pulse. Thank you for having her.

NPR game! I noticed that too. Every story on NPR goes to racial injustice and climate change within the first 3 paragraphs. Glad other people noticed too.

It's amazing when two like minded people find each other at the exact right time. To reinforce these new awakenings and create new, valued bonds. To remind us we aren't so crazy after all.

This was a quite fascinating conversation. Eliza displays incredible insight in so many ways on the subjects swirling around in these crazy times.

The use of language as a tool to define reality is fascinating. I know this is a post-modern concept, and it is clear that the weaponization of language is encouraged by the trans ideology movement (trying to force pronoun use, "trans women are women," etc.) and by the critical race theorists (diversity, equity, inclusion). When confronted with logic and reason, rather than use logic and reason to debate and/or defend their beliefs, they instead attempt to redefine the language. One of my favorite phrases lobbed about by the activists is "you need to educate yourself," which really means "you need to adopt the definitions of words as we have decreed, and there by adopt our world view." A phrase like "perception is reality" seems harmless, but in actuality the phrase is a subtle gateway into the re-definition of reality. Once again, there is a kernel of truth in the phrase, but this is then exploited into converting people into a very authoritarian way of thinking and acting that does not tolerate dissent. It shocks me that this phenomenon continues to occur, and that people refuse to engage in an actual debate. If we don't submit and adopt their definitions and thereby their world view, their only choice is to silence us (the opposition). Thank you for these videos, I appreciate you both.

As a clinical social worker myself, I thank you for having the courage of having this important conversation. I appreciate it very much!!!!

Thank you Leslie, this was fascinating. Eliza seems so thoughtful and compassionate in her approach to these issues, I hope she writes a book some day.

Prostate cancer researcher here and lifelong liberal. There is a NYT opinion piece with one of the developers of Lupron for prostate cancer treatment sounding the alarm about using this drug for puberty blockade. I think there were 4 opinion writers, 3 of whom were vigorously in favor of puberty blockers (all non experts), and that one Dr., one of the world's leading experts on this drug and it's side effects, standing out as the lone dissenting voice. That was when I realized something is amiss with the medical establishment blindly supporting this treatment in children

Thanks for another great video. I’ve a few seen interviews with Eliza, and she seems a natural reporter, immersing herself in a subject, becoming very knowledgeable. In the past she’s come close, to my ears, to blaming the “patriarchy” for the trans movement, a argument I find disingenuous. e.g., the “sensitivity arms race” she describes is more feminine, though not exclusively. I’ve figured feminists blame the patriarchy for trans because it’s a reflexive response. On another note: I liked the too-brief discussion of “I’ve seen this before” and why some people balk at being asked to accept lies. It’s come up before on this channel and always interesting. Why and when people are able to carve out the mental space to listen to nagging doubts and resist social pressure. It’s been a big theme in my life. Feeling mentally from early on like a naive kid lost in a dark jungle of ideas, from gaslighters, bullies, exploiters, etc. It took decades to develop a mental immune system to defend against that. Sometimes when I hear someone who blissfully accepts “trns women ARE women” I wonder if they weren’t thrown into a jungle and hence aren’t suspicious.

Yay Eliza!!!! Can’t wait to listen. Two amazing women ❤

I had been on the outside and not too interested in people doing their own thing until the day I met a female in an online sewing group. I belonged to quite a few midwifery, doula, female based groups including sewing. I started noticing a trend ...owners of the groups started chastising people for using the word woman. I happened to come across a conversation of a young female explaining in her college graduate terms why she supported gender ideology / trans movement Now remind you, this group was mainly for females to learn how to sew cloth menstrual pads. Many of the women in the group sewed them for church projects to send to villages, etc... And now women are being chastised for mentioning females. I saw this older woman try and converse with this gender ideology "professor", wanting to understand what made her feel she wasn't female and why it was offensive to use feminine words. I made an effort to check this female's profile and there was nothing to indicate she was anything but a 20 something female. I came into the conversation and asked her, what exactly is it that made you feel you needed to drop being called female. I expected quite the impressive expression of self after reading her psych book terminology to the other woman. What she said to me: "Some days I don't feel like wearing makeup and a dress. Some days I might want to wear jeans and a flannel shirt." That was it. I asked her again, .. There had to be more than this. Women have been wearing flannel and denim forever. Most women don't wear dresses everyday. Nope, that was her foundation for changing everyone's biological terminology and declaring she wasn't a "cis" woman, or female. After that, I started rabbit holing it. I've spent countless hours listening and reading & honestly, the stories never deepen past the dreaded make believe stereotypes mixed with hotel billions / power / porn / fetish / kink / casual sex culture intertwined to become gender ideology. It's pure frankenscience I had 4 hospital births with my grown kids. Every form I had to fill out for them would either have gender or sex, they meant the same thing...now here we are about ready to face the next few decades of kids being destroyed by adults & horrific decisions.

I’m a detransitioner (FTMTF) and it’s frustrating to me that trans care providers don’t take into account detransitioners’ stories in prescribing care to their patients. If we found ways to cope with or resolve gender dysphoria besides radically altering our bodies, shouldn’t our techniques be suggested to trans-identified patients first before transition is ever considered? Yet when we try to bring these things up we just get attacked and shouted down

It took me a little while to get on your guest's style of measured communication, but when I was able to, what was revealed to me was an incredibly intelligent, well educated, rational, thoughtful person. I may have to listen to this discussion several times. In listening to other channels, it's clear that there are, in actuality real transphobes, but, the two of you are far, far from them, have very rational and thoughtful concerns about the talking points of the activists on this topic. I also enjoyed and agree with her political view.

Was *just* lamenting the loss of Fresh Air; used to love waking my brain up with Teri Gross’ adept intelligence. So many losses have been incurred on the human race; it feels like we’re just getting started. Stay strong and bright, & thank you infinitely

As a trans widow, I appreciate that Eliza has "liked" my comments here and there on her blog. I am collecting data on trans widows, ex-wives, @ YT chan: Trans Widow Ute Heggen

This is one of the most pithy and we'll thought out conversations I've listened to on this topic. You girls got to alot more of the heart of the problem with this issue than I've heard discussed on other more right wing shows. Big fan of your work

I recall the "study" that came out a year or so back about suicidality among trans youth that was actually just results from a survey run by the Trevor Project. Mid-way through the survey was a link back to the Trevor Project website which says something to the effect of "trans people are at a high risk of suicide" and "many will attempt suicide". So in the middle of a survey asking a respondent whether he/she has been suicidal, the respondent is told he/she is probably suicidal. This was touted as "proof" that trans people are suicidal. That one blew my mind.

Wow. Very enlightening and helpful. You are both doing brilliant work. Thank you ladies.

in 2015 when I woke up from my mom death grief and I heard the term transgender being used like it always was a part of our reality , I had to take a step back and I got a grasp on what was happening

Sorting by Newest First shows about a dozen extra comments that are otherwise invisible.

NPR has become inappropriate for families. Eliza - you'll be at no shortage of friends. The world is full of people who think as you do. I want to read your book.

"I fell down a rabbit hole and have been reporting from down there ever since."

A school that disregards parents wishes in this area...criminal IMO. We must have them wait till they're adults, please!

This is a great interview. Thank you! I completely relate to what Eliza said about Terry Gross on NPR. I used to listen to both her and NPR all the time, but I don't anymore.

Excellent, intelligent conversation. Thanks

Great interview. Thanks.

Primitive envy might lead to idioms of distress and vice versa 💚

"Trans women are women" - “The essence of metaphor is understanding and experiencing one kind of thing in terms of another.” George Lakoff. Metaphors We Live By

Eliza, you're fucking great

Has anyone else studied the effects of atrazine on the human biology, and how prevalent it has become in various elements in contemporary society?

We all experience distress. Esp as preteens/teenagers. Young girls transitioning into womanhood is traumatizing. Going from a skinny boy body to developing purple stretch marks all over the thighs and butt, getting a period every month and feeling hormonal. That’s a letting go of your old body-a natural process that is distressful. Convincing children and distressed teens that they are in fact born in the wrong body is dangerous.

Keep up the important work. It feels to me like the tide is turning, in part because of the mounting elucidation taking place all over the place.

This totally does not sound like a bizarre cult at all.

Fascinating and enlightening interview. Eliza is a great communicator with clarity and insight on these issues. Really appreciate listening to both of you on this subject.

One of the RU-vidrs I watch, Aydin Paladin took Lupron for her Endometriosis. She only talks about it now because of the Gender stuff. She has a lot to say regarding what her body is like now, such as (what you mention) massive reduction in bone density. You should reach out and see if you can talk to her about it. I think you would find it productive as her content is very academically oriented. She analyzes academic studies all the time.

Elisa is a high cognitive human

Mondegreen is a very intelligent, perceptive, and honest intellectual, and I agree with 99% of what she said in this video. The one gripe I have is that she seems to be saying that gender dysphoria and transgenderism is “not a thing”. There have been transgender persons since time immemorial in just about any culture you want to name. Now, this in no way justifies what amounts the genital mutilation of children or trying to make women disappear as a gender, but to say that transgender persons “do not really exist” is a bridge too far. I admit, however, to the possibility that I misunderstood her.

Blind faith is different from authentic faith. Authentic faith starts from a solid foundation and steps into the unknown based on trust in your worldview which is built from deep reflection and personal experience. Blind faith is based on nothing and thats why it is so fragile and prone to enrage people who employ it.

I am grateful I listened

Leslie Elliott couldn’t be more attractive, both inside and out. When is the book tour? Cannot wait!

Smart framing.

Look up Peter Boghossian's videos about "Why I left NPR." One of the commentors mentioned the "NPR concern voice" to discuss Any Problematic, Traumatic, Insane topic they present as the received wisdom of every enlightened, moral exemplar they think they represent. I was a regular listener to NPR for 25 years but have given up unless I am stuck in traffic and my blood pressure is not high enough. 5 minutes of NPR and my pressure will bust the cuff. Thank you both for a great conversation.

Brilliant discussion!

Yes! The divide is between the liberal and the illiberal. It would be great if we could have a whole separate video with Eliza discussing this framing.

What a wonderful, thoughtful and intelligent woman. ... Not sure how to say this but I hope she's eating enough. I have a family member with an eating disorder and this woman looks close to some of the people I saw in the inpatient center.

I wonder if you have or plan to expand upon the loss of identity in relation to these political shifts. I really related to the end with all the cultural institutions we've lost to this ideology.

How wonderful this was. Gives me hope.

Another great conversation ❤

important

Eliza starts out pondering the fact that not everyone has found this objectionable yet. I think the Big 5 personality trait model is yseful here. I think that people high in trait Openess and low in trait Agreeableness will tend to be aware of underlying patterns. I think this might explain how people can swallow this bunkum hook line and sinker. A better term for low in Agreableness is independant or strong mindedness. People who like team sports tend to be more agreeable in that they have a need to be part of a crowd.

Why is Leslie so calm, rational and intelligent?🤔

The term come from a Border Ballad, The Earl of Murray, in particular the line, "They hae slain the Earl of Murray, and laid him on the green", which in broad Doric was almost incomprehensible to Americans, who thought it was "Lady Mondegreen".

Ladies and Gentlemen. Now introducing the next great heavy metal band. Raise your lighters and welcome: Idiom of Distress!

It’s just like with Foucault’s Social Panopticon theory and it’s all by design...

Reminds me when I used to attend a Unitarian Universalist church.

Had a student of mine say that his pronouns (biological male) were "they/them." He said he wasn't a transgender, just that he didn't feel the pronouns correlated to his sex were right for him. Kid also had a troubled home life where the older brother acted as the father since the father was an absentee parent and the mother worked too many hours in their family bar to properly watch the boy. Add to the fact he also had a stutter and showed symptoms of paranoia.

There is an absolute fear, even from those who strive to expose the nonsense, of pointing to the source of this latest social contagion that originates from academia: feminism

This channel needs lots more views because it is a place where the concerns about what you might call “ the big picture” are aired. You know…the “What DOES it all MEAN?” How will this all analyse out 100 years from now? Will the current secular religious movement and its increasingly hysterical adepts succeed in doing any permanent damage to academe, to the “university”? As a friend…like me an academic…pointed out the other day…one of the integral aspects of scholarly papers is what is called “the Discussion” (In a PhD thesis this is a whole chapter.) where ALL scholarship is considered and analysed will in current thinking constitute Hate Speech”. Counter arguments only deserve to be deplatformed. As that evolves the university must perforce come to represent universities in totalitarian states where covering all scholarship in writing your paper, your thesis..can’t get you sent to prison.

What was "normal" 100 years ago? 50 years ago? 20 years ago? Today? What was the attitude of the "normal" towards the "abnormal" 100 years ago? 50 years ago? 20 years ago? Today? And how will we chart our course for the future? Will the individual be allowed to be an individual or will conformity to a "group norm" be the new "normal"? If you must join a group, be sure you know where the exit door is located. The minute the "sieg heils" start, get the hell out!

1:00:02 that’s a fun way to pronounce Cohn!

Holy hell! I’ve gone through the EXACT things as this girl, and am also dancing around facts so I can keep my “friends”. I think that this is the new Mysogyne, and when men finally feel so cornered they will dominate at all costs. Boobs and Estrogen don’t erase a lifetime of Male aggression and privilege. This is so scary 😖

Anti-gravity, no grounding concepts or even some grounded end point. Its just this disorienting/weightless vacuum created by quickly and endlessly shifting hierarchies of "marginalization". Shifting and vacuous language as well.

This channel needs lots more views because it is a place where the concerns about what you might call “ the big picture” are aired. You know…the “What DOES it all MEAN?” How will this all analyse out 100 years from now? Will the current secular religious movement and its increasingly hysterical adepts succeed in doing any permanent damage to academe, to the “university”? As a friend…like me an academic…pointed out the other day…one of the integral aspects of scholarly papers is what is called “the Discussion” (In a PhD thesis this is a whole chapter.) where ALL scholarship is considered and analysed will in current thinking constitute “Hate Speech”. In this regime Counter arguments only deserve to be deplatformed. Not referred to. If that evolves the university must perforce come to represent universities in totalitarian states where covering ALL scholarship in writing your paper, your thesis..can get you sent to prison.

I can't stand how the trans movement weaponizes language. A doctor asking questions to a patient askng for medical intervention (puberty blockers, hormonal treatment). Is deemed as "interrogation"? If that is in interrogation, most patients have been interrogated at some time.

5:36 also got rid of /ChapoTrapHouse. Making it much harder for me to understand what I disagree with.

You are such an incredible and ravishing beauty Ms. Radical Centre.

She is so intelligent and well spoken, but she sounds like someone whose also been through serious trauma. And that’s unfair, though one can understand how it could happen, especially to a sensitive person with good reasoning skills.

“The Strange Fruit of Feminism” Here’s the title for someone’s research paper.

I sort of see it as the progressive left, the right, and the regressive left.

I identify as a post-industrial shovel...

16:00 Yes, I will not be bullied by the threat of suicide to deny reality

Liberalism needs defenders - let's step up. A book I read a while back that seems relevant to the idea of idioms of distress: "Crazy Like Us" by Ethan Watters A book I read recently that was inspiring (toward the end, anyway): "The Rise and Fall of Communism" by Archie Brown Next up: "A History of Fascism: 1914-1945" by Stanley Pyne There's nothing new under the sun!

The argument that people in wheelchair can't stand up for themselves or stand up for something that care about is really offensive and "Ableism", isn't it? It's not like they have no spine. Stephen Hawking could stand up for himself, in that context.

The progressive movements of the 70s and 90s were also undone when devolved into identity politics and language games, leading to in-fighting & bad backlash. A lot of feminist pomo theory was about shifting from identity politics to a politics of subjectivity and intersectionality to avoid these traps. Misreadings of pomo theory are now being used to re-establish essentialism (now as psychological not biological), collapse categories and definitions, and promote a distorted Donna Haraway type of cyborgian trans humanism. The point of "language constructs reality" was to question how social ideologies, institutions, etc. exert coercive control through language to shape our understandings of ourselves and our experiences such that we don't question the patriarchal etc. values implicit in these understandings. This theoretical premise has been misunderstood and weaponized for individual (narcissistic) attempts to control language to erase "woman," deny biological reality, and undermine feminist projects to safeguard women and children. It also creates a contradiction: if language constructs reality in toto (I am a woman because I say I am one) then we don't need to medicalize the transitioning of child or adult bodies, just change their pronouns. There is a big difference between deconstructing gender roles and collapsing the separate categories of sex (biological reality) and gender (social constructions of what that biology means). Thank you for the thought-provoking conversation!

Medical experts know about prenatal endocrinology and maternal stress with gender fluidity and does animal science

If one understands reincarnation, it can help in understanding the trans phenomenon. When one has been, for instance, a woman for many lives in a row, it can be immensely difficult in the following life to be born as a man. There are other reasons, of course, for transitioning.

Yeah, it is, that murky water where trans ideologues want us to swim in; like, NAH..

Self publishing isn't an option???? Do a genuine reach out to Abigail Schrier

And why don’t they ever feel the need to say trans men are men? 😅

Poor Eliza - everyone mishears what she says. (Lets see who gets the reference.)

So much mental trauma being ignored

What is the ideology behind trans ideology?

One facet is something I've experienced, that if, for any reason, you don't conform to the WASP norm, then society rejects you. Why the 80% who don't allow the 20% who do to get away with it is beyond me: we see exactly the same intolerance between each of the subgroups, too.

I can understand identity based around skin color or religion, but I never guessed people would base identity on what's between their legs. Just low aspirations for society.

I believe there are two sexes (and have stopped using the word gender)

Interesting graduate project. Good luck finding a reputable journal to publish your findings. One critique: While I am skeptical of using puberty blockers for transgender youth, your statements about the extreme circumstances for which the drugs have been used in previously, such as end-stage prostate cancer, chemical castration, etc., strike me as potential cheapshots, because you said nothing about the doses at which the drugs are used in each case. I would imagine the dosage used for chemical castration would be substantially higher than for blocking puberty. I could be wrong, but it seems like it would have to be the case or else all people who go on these would end up chemically castrated, which does not seem to be the case.

:)

Thanks for the excellent episode. When Eliza said draining the pool I thought, I know a song for that! Hope you get a smile out of it: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-CW10_YMH4kI.html

. . 🕎(((Sacrifice At The Alter)))🕎 .

As much as I agree with the points brought up here, I can't help but notice how horribly inept this woman is as telling her story, let alone at explaining her opinions and topic-related concepts.

Why hello ladies. He/him here. Can I buy you a drink?