Another issue is dot. Dot skills in this game doesn’t look all that different from hit skills. And you can deal with hit much easier. There are some cool defensive layers in this game such as blocking, dodging, glancing blow, and god forbid, parry. Maxing out any one of these require some actual investment and they do protect you against hits. However, dot says nope sry, you are still getting melted. As a result, almost every build pushing end game ends up stacking armor and armor applies to dot. Even with all that, your character still gets “one shot” by dot quite often without high enough hp/ward. Kinda defeated the purpose of nerfing ward when at the end of the day, building defense in this game is still stacking ward or hp, aka the worse ward.
I think it just clicked why i loved the gameplay feel of the ARPG warhammer 40k inquisitor martyr. I never got one shot a single time. All damage was consistent and predictable, given perfectly visible visual ques and warning. And the health pool was high enough to actually give you the ability to react and respond. If you were taking too much damage and things were looking grim, you had a second to do something. In LE i find by the time my finger starts reaching for the potion hotkey, im dead.
Thanks for the explanation. I had been wondering about the inconsistency of damage, and honestly the damage spikes are the thing that I most dislike about the game. I never have a good sense of whether I am pushing corruption too quickly until my character is already dead since typical hit damage (which is what you get consistent feedback for) is apparently not what you should be designing around.
Thanks to put this sh!t in light. I always say (on steam forum)/feel the damages we get sometimes are stupid and we die in 0,5s with no time to react. You put two points that are bad designed; if players have damage range, the game have to shows it. And second, damage ranges from monsters have to be reduce because we have to feel the increase of difficulty/damages in a smooth way to estimate where the limit of our builds are. Crit avoidance is a nice stat but it have to be get for very end game content if well designed. We have to put our defenses + sustain against monster's damages, and our limit have to be determined step by step of difficulty. And for me the values in this game are not very well designed, HP pool is to low, the base damage of skill have to increase with lvl of skill/character and don't have to depend for 90% of weapons flat damages (a fire ball have to make fire damages) because a good item come from affixes and not from base damage value. Number of monster have to be increase too. Edit: Another bad designe for me, the resist and armor, 1 affixe to mitiged all damages vs all types of resist (so 1 affixe for one damage type) which are juste here to compensate damage penetration from monster, I m not sure about math behind but it's feel not very well.
yea I think it just feels inconsistent especially early on because we have no crit mitigation yet, and that coupled with damage ranges that aren't shown anywhere can be very confusing for players
I have been noticing this more as of late. I guess the addition of last hit damage on the kill screen has helped but even besides that I think I am now dying more frequently and suddenly than I used to. Claiming an enemy did more damage in a single hit than my whole healthpool. It tends to say crit, but not always even that. And regular mobs too mind you. It's very bizarre, very hard to read and get data to avoid it.
Math is the most constructive way to vent the anger! Joking aside, I figured I would be upset by HC rips but it surprisingly didn't actually bother me. I knew going into it that would happen sooner or later and I'm just happy it wasn't a RIP to a disconnection, or game freeze, or something else beyond my control.
I just had a lvl 90 character with all maxed defenses get one-shotted by a normal mob. Nothing had caused my health to drop even by a tiny bit for hours at that point.
I would like for hits to do more damage but much more consistent than rng fiesta with hits from same mob that can tickle you or one shot you depending on star alignment. More math you show behind LE, less I want to play this game further. See ya in 1.2 :D
Yea I would be okay with higher baseline damage but more consistency, at least pre-monolith where you don't really have a chance to get good crit mitigation
I'm currently playing Frost Claw + Static Orb at 1800 corruption and tbh I'm not really experiencing anything noticeably different from when I was at 5-600 corruption. My gear is exponentially better and yet the rule seems to be that regardless of corruption, if I get hit I die.
Love last epoch. But there are way too many one hit mechanics in this game. It revolves completely around just dodging colored shapes on the screen. Like some sort of roleplay angry birds...
From one side it should be pretty obvious from the very beginning, that some randomisation exists, when you start seeing different damage numbers for the same attacks and skills. The only problem, as you mentioned, it's not mentioned anywhere In the game (I think), so you need to google it, if you really want to know the range or test it, like you did. I've played since launch and didn't really care about this info, but I found out that all hits have some specified range maybe a few weeks ago. And it was a random message from developer and I can't find where (discord group or patch notes or some forum). Anyways, good video. Even if you know the range, it's useful to go through math and understand what are the exact potential numbers and risks. P.S. RIP to your HC mage. That's why, when I first decided to try HC, I went with full tank Sentinel (old Hammer and Anvil was a bless). Got to lvl 98 without any problems, but very slowly, but didn't even risk T4 dungeon lol).I'm too old for this *hit :)
Yeah, technically you could do the math before a fight and know exactly how much damage you could take in a worst case scenario. I did roll another mage yesterday though and got to level 70 fairly quickly, will see how far that one makes it
Hi Frozen, you are absolutely right, I have been testing and experiencing this very much on HC and SC - where I finally ended, because of this stupid game design - it is basically just luck and if you know the game simply avoiding some monsters. Since the new death screen it is so apparent what happens and how stupid the damage design in this game is. I was killed in a 21lvl zone where a normal monster crit for 415!!!!! damage. I was lvl 24 my physical res was 40 and void 30% - these two types were what killed me, but in my opinion in a 21lvl zone no monster should do such a spike damage especially when there is no way to access crit avoidance at such lowel. I just do not understand why there is no lets say just 20% effectiveness of crits increasing with the zone level. This really not fun when you do absolutely fine and then all of a sudden a one shot. We, as ordinary players, do not have a voice to speak, but I think you and other content creators could address and send a voice to EHG that some of their mechanics are just stupid and perhaps they do not play their own game enough to experience these situations.
Guessing it was either the fat heretic guys or a void horror, lol Tbh the early on insane spike damage isn't really that much of an issue for the majority of players, which mostly play SC. They will just click respawn and continue on. Yeah I personally think the early crits before you can realistically mitigate coupled with large damage ranges isn't great design. Crits literally do more bonus damage than you take for having 0% resistance while being a 1 in 20 base chance of happening. Either provide players with early access to mitigation (avoidance doesn't count, it's useless if not 100% which is hard to get early on), or give monsters significantly less crit multi during campaign.
@@FrozenSentinel Exactly. It is quite miserable experience when you stand by boss or a rare monster and perfectly sustain the damage and then you walk and get one shot by a normal monster from nowhere. Anyways, it was the dude which sends the sawchain forward then makes him a ball and rolls - I dont know his name
The timing of this video is great. Just lost my 94 sorc in a regular old 100 mono to an exile mage... this is after clearing 9 100 mono's without ever taking real damage. Like 20 hours without taking damage to die to mage... i've never died to a mage before on any character smh
@FrozenSentinel I didn't see a spinning beam. I think it was the really slow snow storm that's hard to see on a snow map... could be wrong. I was gone in an instant... 100% crit avoid, capped res, 4k armor, 5k ward. Gone in an instant. Claw cleanse too, so not sure how a dot could kill me. I was so mad, I alt + f4, so I don't even know what it said on death screen
Yes, all non-DoT damage (so Hit damage) has a +/- 20% variance applied after it’s been calculated. So a 100 damage hit will do anywhere from 80-120 damage, which you've demonstrated beautifully in this video. As a long-time player of LE I've known this for a while now, but agree that it should be included in the Game Guide and elsewhere so that players understand it's happening. Another important variable are the monster modifiers, such as 'Deadly If Not Damaged Recently' (which will double the enemies damage) or 'Increased Damage' (which will increase the enemies damage by 40%). These types of modifiers, in conjunction with the hit damage variance already discussed, can create some very dangerous scenarios if you're not careful, as it can be difficult to see all monster modifiers in the heat of battle (considering it requires you to hover over each monster to see them).
@@FrozenSentinel Correct, bosses have static modifiers, if they have any at all, with some having modifiers unique to them that can't be found elsewhere (like Abomination for example), whereas magic and rare enemies can have an assortment of random modifiers that can applied to them which can make them pretty dangerous. Like bosses, some of these modifiers can be inherent to the enemy (such as Imperial Guard enemies always having the 'Blocks hits from distant enemies' modifier).
This is dogshit. Such a large incoming damage range is all negative and no positive. I hope GG changes this. Incoming damage should have no variance apart from crits which is very well explained in game.
This is what pushed me away from this game. I was in Corruption 500 with 2k armor and over capped on all res and I was still getting random 1 shots all the time. Felt horrible. Made no sense. The game still doesn’t feel good to play.
I think beyond 300 corruption you get into the territory where random oneshots aren't unintended. Every build eventually gets oneshot at certain levels of corruption. Still, personally I found monos a lot more consistent than campaign because you have a chance to get crit mitigation by that point
Thanks for the break down. Although very interesting, "feel" is very important in these games. I think cycle2 is a pretty huge letdown, considering the "rework" on ward that pretty much messed up mitigation for everyone (except maybe 2/3 builds). Not to mention melee classes are just overall bad and not very rewarding. Hope they'll get it right in cycle3.
My necromancer had 48K stable ward thanks to shackles Cycle 2 same gear ward is 1.6k max Even my runemaster on cycle 1 can hit 65K ward but cycle 2 is disgustingly low Keeping cycle 1 game files was the best decision i made, i can still play my overpowered characters offline
To be fair ward was insanely overpowered in 1.0, it was making you basically immortal with mediocre gear into thousands of corruption. I don't think we should use an unintended power level as a baseline for what to expect going forward. EHG has shown they don't want the kind of power that trivializes all meaningful content to exist and likely anything coming close to that in the future will be nerfed / bugfixed. You can still get to 10K ward in 1.0, low life builds are still viable, FC is still very strong, etc. I find the game gets boring when there is no risk of death personally
@@FrozenSentinel I agree ward in cycle1 was too OP, I was not a fan either. what I'm saying is that the situation now is not great aswell, there are too many squishy build that could use some mitigation changes. StaticOrb is not really a spec that resembles the current situation I think, it's one if not THE most OP build still in the game rn. Melee are so much worse in terms of ST and mitigation compared to casters... I think there's a lot of work yet to be done. I don't personally care for corruption push, find it pretty meaningless, but I care about class/mastery balance which is still all over the place rn.
@@kamm3021 This is a very bad approach for the game, you play with a very very bad designed feature, look like a cheat, unbalanced as hell, and to continue to enjoy the game you want this to keep. Game need balance, and with this balance all have to enjoy it. Ward have to be around your life pool if you focus one both mecanics without puching far one or other.
GJ man! I hate all of this hidden mechanics in games. You just cant rely on what you actually see. Can you make math about how and why tooltips works (it is not) in LE?
The tooltips in LE generally work, they just don't have complete information. For example Frost Claw tooltip doesn't know you are applying a bunch of spark charges scaled by enigma, and spark charge tooltip doesn't know how many times you are applying it per second from Frost Claw.
@@FrozenSentinel Well, yep, also static orb tooltip doesnt count more dmg to shocked. But overall tooltip dps isnt your actual dps in most cases. It is also tricky for dot dmg.
those fucking cows that throw knives at me always melt my ass, and the fire explosion mobs too. I've only ever died to those 2 using the frost claw build.
no idea what the knife cows are but yeah the fire explosion enemies are insane, they drop my FPS to single digits when I attack them making it hard to avoid the damage
It doesn't prevent you from getting crit, it just means instead of 2X damage you take 1X damage, so no increase. If you had 100% crit avoid that would mean no crits
Between this, damage over time to players, wengari/poison spikes when looking at items and enemy damage circles being completely invisible because of visual clutter (for example player meteors covering the screen) I don't understand why people play Last Epoch on hardcore. Even on a strong defensive build it feels like you have a low chance to die at any moment in this game
Yea that and inconsistent enemy skill indicators (like shade's meteor not following the indicator), or 4+ second game freezes when mishapen boss spawns in echos, etc. The challenge can be a bit unfair at times.
definitely sucks this isnt explained anywhere... however, I 100% think this is good for the game. I am not sure of the range in poe but I know poe lightning is 1 to 302 for example. so imagine taking 1 damage or 302... would be interesting to compare how wide the range is in poe as I definitely think its WAYYY higher than 1.5
1.5 isn't that bad true, but it is further compounded by crits which are hard to get mitigation for pre-monolith due to the rarity / inconsistency of blind and crit mitigation affixes, uniques, and base types. You could get hit for 100 damage then immediately get hit for 300 damage (1.5 * 2 multi) with the same ability right after as early as chapter 1, with no reliable way to mitigate that until post campaign. The crits themselves have only a 5% chance early on but if that happens at the same time as a high roll, you very inconsistently but eventually will get blasted. (eg. the 80th+ percentile hit that I took with a 1/20 crit was less than 1/100 chance of happening, not even considering the other stars that had to align). In PoE I feel like the skills with big damage ranges often rely on many smaller hits which "averages out" the total damage received making it less spikey. With a massive hit ability like meteor that range is a lot more significant, a high roll crit at that point in the campaign would kill most characters.
@@FrozenSentinel in hard-core runs, you should NOT be getting hit AT ALL. your build should very strong in early game such that it nearly 1 shot almost everything. Typically what smurf-runners do for mage leveling is they level Flame Reave because it has 160% scaling on damage and they slam TIER 7 "Melee fire-damage" On the 4 LP fire-starter torch and then second prefered stat is Tier 7 Melee Lightning damage. This allows you to MAJOR cheat the base damage in early game because base of "Melee Lightning damage" and "melee Fire damage" is 93-119. If you have two of these affixes, you get like +200 base damage which is absurd for campaign story. Hardcore really requires you to cheat your gear hard. It is not difficult, it is just annoying. after that, it is about safe-leveling, getting to 100, doing monolith safely, building up defensive gear so you don't die. tedious gameplay. you do same with defensive gear. you take a low-level boot and you slam tier 6 reduced critical-rate on your belt and unique boots. your rings should also be slammed with tier 6 int, tier 6 mp regen. take some trash-low level rings like quicksilver ring or that pointless crab ring. campaign all about cheating ur stats with low level uniques till you can equip correct gear.
@REIwAlexY Hard disagree. For the record, just because PoE does something doesn't mean it's good game design. However monster attacks having min and max damage is not what happened here. This happened due to an extra +/- 20% variance on the final damage roll which does not exist in PoE. You can read up on the wiki.
@@thendcomes it is not bad design. every ARPG has huge spike damage. it is entire difficulty scaling is there to make engagement as unexpected as possible. that is whole reason why people play hardcore because the whole idea is mitigating risk and developing strategies to minimize risk. Some people find this fun. they like min-maxing the game and minimizing risk. I don't find this fun because it often relies on exploiting poorly balanced game systema and poorly balanced skills. Like the fact the game treats a level 5 unique with T7 affixes as T7 instead of level 80 gear or certains skills that are just broken for leveling like... thorn totem or chaos bolt+bone curse or shadow blades on rogue etc. etc.
