Entering The Realm of The Unknown | Engels Coach Shop

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How to build the seats and top of this mud wagon is unknown since the whole top portion of this coach is missing. Using what little we have, along with years of past carriage restoration experience, I am trying to figure out what would be appropriate as to how to finish this project. I explain some of the difficulties involved that I am experiencing. Thanks for following along!
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#wheelwright #stagecoach #blacksmiths

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2 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 287

@railroad9000 Год назад

With your extensive knowledge and experience you are a great historical detective!

@saltycreole2673 Год назад

And an historical treasure.

@railroad9000 Год назад

@@saltycreole2673 Absolutely!

@darrenblattner2508 Год назад

Your attention to detail is a big reason I like your videos, not to mention your craftsmanship. Nothing feels better than standing in front of a warm fire so stand there and think away. lol Keep smilin

@ellisc.foleyjr9778 Год назад

Conan Doyle would be proud of your Analytical Mindset on this build. and once again your Table saw never ceases to amaze me.! I love all of its functions and I'm not a big fan of table saws. use my Radial Arm for most of my work (which is limited by the way. weekend warrior, and pushing 80 yrs old so no needs priorities!) Any way I digress, I'm sure the end result of this Mud wagon will be beyond our expectations. and maybe yours! Thanks for sharing Dave God speed. ECF

@1pcfred Год назад

A great video on the topic of analysis paralysis.

@milt7348 Год назад

Stay safe and we'll see you next week.

@catfishgray3696 Год назад

DAVE YOU ARE DOING GREAT, IT WELL BE BEAUTIFUL AND FUNCTIONAL, GREAT VIDEO, TELL ALL HELLO, I WELL TRY TOO ON TIME NEXT WEEK TO WORK / MAYBE...SEE YOU WHEN...

@MrEdwardhartmann Год назад

My wife and I just did a 1000 piece puzzle - it took us 3 weeks. I wonder how long it would have taken if I only had 1/3 of the pieces and I had to make up the rest as I went along.

@joaobarulho9124 Год назад

Talvez um pouco de tempo mais.

@dtoad48 Год назад

Pretty easy. You just look at the box front. :)

@PatrickLabelle Год назад

Hi Dave! 👋

@GentryTA Год назад

I truly enjoy listening to you talk about your process for sussing out information.

@jonson0721 Год назад

I saw an opportunity to attach the driver and the first bench together. That may mean redoing the side skirt….

@BigPete7407 Год назад

Hi Dave, regarding the seat spacing, perhaps you might consider the facing seats needing additional legroom due to people sitting knee to knee. Love the channel, keep on going with everything. All the best, Pete

@ridgefieldjohn9041 Год назад

If you trim the #3 seat so it can go back that amount that is free legroom. If you move the front seat forward the back of said seat becomes close to 90* making it uncomfortable. You are doing a fine job.

@robertrobert7924 Год назад

I always enjoyed the challenge of building something in my head and on paper, before I actually built the object. I have really enjoyed watching this project and witnessing your visual accuity during the building process. And yes, you can always make something smaller if you intially make it too big.

@joaobarulho9124 Год назад

Ola Robert, veja os vídeos anteriores, a corroça de mulas para transporte de Borax, um projeto enorme, veja na descriçao dos videos.

@daviddudley1655 Год назад

The detective work continues. Love the progress

@pete_ski Год назад

So much figuring goes into your reconstruction. Hats off to you Dave.

@mwaynem Год назад

Most of the joy in accomplishing a big project is in the journey. I can tell you are enjoying the journey. Thanks for including us in your projects.

@RaymondWKing-dn8wf Год назад

Hi Dave, this old Mud wagon has gown through a lot! It's a survivor of a wreck and neglect, I see no reason not to give it a face lift and make it really nice and of core Historically correct. I'm waiting for the Day when you Hitch a Team to it and take a first Ride. Do you suppose it had Lamos on it, your brother-in-Law Rick Shure does a great job with Lamps! provided of course if they would have driven this Mud Wagon at night.

@Goman1244 Год назад

You should have worked for an airline builder. They could easily get 8 or 9 seats in the same space you are working with. Standard sitting position would be with your knees right under your chin.

@davidbaulch3223 Год назад

So glad you talked about standing in front of the stove and, not only keeping warm, but contemplating how your work is going to go together. I, too, have spent a fair amount of time in front of my "little" heater in the shop looking at a project I am working on building changes and additions and corrections in my head before I even set hand or tool to the project. I feel better about it now.

@robertwoelk26 Год назад

I understand your contemplating, I built a log bed for my Nephew and his wife, I probably spent 3 to 4 times more time looking at it, thinking if I do A how will that effect B to Z. It came out nicely and they were very happy .

@Kaptain13Gonzo Год назад

I went back to the photo you were using as the most likely one of the mud waggon, the front row seat had no side. It seems, through the graininess of the photo, that the seat(s?) had legs instead. Also, and this is a guess, the seats may have been narrower, maybe more like 12" - 14". Still, at this time as you rightly point out, we're in the realm of experience and guesswork. Still amazing.

@petehenson3755 Год назад

I look forward to every video you put out! Thanks for doing it!

@rustyrobinson8027 Год назад

I heard people were smaller back in those days so they would have had a little more room thanks for the upload

@massoud999 Год назад

Thanks Dave. I am learning from every video you make.

@jeffclark2725 Год назад

Great video

@thisolesignguy2733 Год назад

I had to laugh, when you talked about how this was an inexpensive version of a Wells Fargo it made me think that it was the old Chevrolet of wagons :) "Sometimes she runs, sometimes she don't More than once she's left me on the side of the road The older she gets the slower we go But there ain't nothin' wrong with the radio" haha

@redrockplumber5124 Год назад

This is so much more interesting/value added hearing your perspective. Thank you.

@occasionalmachinist Год назад

I would have thought an argument against those mystery irons being for a seat back was that the bolts on the 'originals' would have the nuts on the top, possibly snagging passenger clothing if used in that way.

@Garth2011 Год назад

For sure a puzzle job. Taking into consideration that us humans were smaller back then in height and weight compared to todays humans, I'd agree with the extra inch or so gained between the seats when modifying/trimming the seat mounts. I'd also agree with the irons were mounted side to side vs. front to back for the seats. Once you are set on the method and design for the seats, it seems that you will simply have to move ahead with "how it was" based on your past expeiences and the fact its a "mud wagon" vs. a stage coach. If the client is looking for an outcome based on those pictures, at least thats a fair point on the compass to steer the design. If the client isn't all that sure, I would simply move ahead based on Engles Coach Shop experiences especially if thing are to be done correctly and a tad nicer/higher in overall quality. Hopefully when this is delivered, its not stored outside ever again.

@tomtruesdale6901 Год назад

Another great video Sir, I am sure that you will be able to figure out the twists and turns of that mud wagon.

@chrismilne4511 Год назад

One hell of a lot better than the saws they make today.

@horacerumpole6912 Год назад

Never seen a Martin, or an Ulmia I'm guessing-

@MrJeffro56 Год назад

Looking forward to seeing the final version of the mud wagon. Since the rest is not there for reconstruction, I believe that with your wealth of knowledge in this area that whatever you come up with will be just great. The owner of this coach will show it off for many years and be proud of what you did for them. So just go for it!

@D989501L Год назад

Evening Dave and Diane, I hope you are well. What if you positioned the seat/back irons towards the outer edge of the seat as back irons, then you would bolt down through the framework and it would I think put a bolt through the lap joint adding a bit of strength as well.,only an idea, Regards Richard 🇬🇧

@veccio65 Год назад

Hi Dave and Diane, good episode.

@thirzapeevey2395 Год назад

I was wondering about the curve on those sideboards when you did it, and not so much from a leg room perspective, but from a getting in and out of the coach perspective. The spacing is tight enough that you are going to tend to kick that sideboard and fall getting in and out, particularly if you are in a hurry. If you have a team that doesn't stand well, that could be a nightmare. If you cut the front seat back so it can slide further forward, and the back seat so it can slide further back, it will make getting in and out much easier. Going back and looking at the picture, I think those irons are supporting the top. The seats in the picture don't look like they have sideboards at all.

@goldcountryruss7035 Год назад

At 17:15 I was screaming turn it 90deg., I think it would work great at the outer edges of the back seat and it would tie the seatback to the bench.

@Gena_1309 Год назад

Спасибо. Интрига однако.

@sparkyprojects Год назад

When you positioned the irons as a backrest, i was thinking more that they would be mounted at the ends of the seat to support the back, then both bolts would be in the frame But looking at that photo i think you are right Which raises the question, what supported the seat backs, or were they part of the seat sides purely wood.

@alansandom1681 Год назад

Love the way you think everything through, question- doesnt the old photos you showed before assist with the top carriage assembly

@minbannister3625 Год назад

I like to hear what your thinking.

@gordbaker896 Год назад

Since none of the wagons and sleighs are identical, your version is as correct as any of the others. If you can improve upon the design, I would do so.

@carltodd1486 Год назад

Dave, if you can’t figure this project out then who could? I think the end product will be awesome. Your end product will certainly surpass the repair work done long ago. Besides, if you change your mind later you can make changes to the coach if you want.

@cliffmorgan31 Год назад

Respectful suggestion. Those cross wagon seat board’s thickness probably was adequate for the size of people back then… With as heavy as us modern Americans are now, I would suggest gluing a doubler under under the cross seat boards for more functionality in these modern times. I enjoy your videos.

@jaayjones5937 Год назад

Something to remember about room in the mud wagon, In 1898 the newspaper reported that the average weight of a man was 140 pounds and a woman 123 pounds, with the average male height at about 5 feet 6. Only one out of 208 men exceeded 6 feet tall.

@jjudy5869 Год назад

My family must have had them all, because you have to go back to two greats on the paternal side to find men who were short-n-wiry on one leg of the family, according to the pictures. On the maternal side, even the women were 6-footers. 😀

@chuckmiller5763 Год назад

I would take some of the old rotted wood, router out spaces and inset them in a nice piece of new material, and clear epoxy the old pieces into it.

@johnbirkett-smith7658 Год назад

Hello, A lovely series - perhaps my favourite on RU-vid. The mystery irons - could they possible be set at right angles to where you thought they went, I.e. that they supported the BACK of the seat, not the arms. That would explain the double angles and, if fixed to the end frames of the seat, the hole spacing would work. Maybe the mystery third iron was a replacement for a damaged one which would have been placed centrally. John

@cyclingbutterbean Год назад

That table saw is incredible! Especially in the hands of a true craftsperson like yourself Dave. Thanks for sharing.

@garrettswoodworx1873 Год назад

That saw is probably my favorite piece of equipment in Dave's shop, in spite of the fact that he has designed some pretty cool machines to help him do the work he does.

@Page5framing Год назад

I already dibs’d it. 😂

@garrettswoodworx1873 Год назад

@@Page5framing 🙃🙃🙃🙃

@wellsmarshall2297 Год назад

Boy oh boy... I got to tell ya, this one adventure is the best. It's just as good as Terry and the Pirates and The Shadow shows I used to listen to every week on the radio. What a treasure you are!

@johnalexander4356 Год назад

When I study that photo, I see a vertical board behind the driver's right elbow that connects the driver's seat to the top. It also appears to be a slightly curved support three inches of so outboard of the vertical board. The man with his foot on the Adel huh looks to have his hand on the wooden And rest. And on the rear seat, it appears that the steel seat back supports extend all the way up to the top. Since you only have the two original seat back irons, the ones you build for the back seat are different than the others. I just don't know if that iron would be strong enough to support the back of the roof all by itself.

@glennmoreland6457 Год назад

Remember that people were a good bit smaller back then... 36" chest was seen as large back in those days... Look at a lot of early film of newly enlisted men stood outside recruitment stations back in 1914 as a rough guide... You'll see how weedy. stunted and disadvantaged most of em look... ☹🇬🇧

@robt2151 Год назад

Another factor when considering seat placing is the dress code of the day - the ladies in particular would not have been wearing jeans!

@stephenhenion8304 Год назад

I think it's great how you think out loud! Going back and forth about what you feel is going to be correct on your Mudwagon! Combined with your many years experience, its really fun to watch and see it come together. Thanks Dave...

@paulwhitehouse3690 Год назад

Do you notice just above your yellow circle, that to the immediate left of the person looking out there is another vertical support going up to the roof. Does that help your thinking? So enjoying your video, Paul, Johannesburg

@thedevilinthecircuit1414 Год назад

I'm not a farrier... but like you, the farrier's hammer gets used in my shop just about every day. It is the perfect size and weight for these small hardware-knockin' tasks.

@RaymondWKing-dn8wf Год назад

Hi Dave, Were Mud Wagons used year-round? What about Wind, Rane, Cold and Snow. I wouldn't want to ride very far in a Mud Wagon in Strong wind and blowing Snow. So, I too am wondering about the rest of the Framework and the Oil Cloth or Canvis cover.

@nowayjerk8064 Год назад

the center seat comes out right,wheres it go when its not in place to sit on is there a hanging place or some ware to carry it ? thanks for sharing !

@railfan439 Год назад

Dave. if the mud wagon was made as cheaply as possible, all three seats could be identical, - interchangeable. Try turning the front and rear seats around without trimming the sides to see the spacing. Then you can trim them later. That center seat, with the "J" iron, could it have been hinged on that center vertical side brace? Then again, what I'm seeing through RU-vid is different than what you are seeing. Thanks for the video. Jon

@justlost2010 Год назад

The average height in 1860 was 5.4 to 5.8. I think you are right about the distance of the seats.

@timeflysintheshop Год назад

If the seat irons are supposed to go on the back, why could they not be on the ends where you have the full thickness frame? Maybe there was another one with the shorter bottom as you described in the center of the seat?

@FarFromN0thing Год назад

I always wonder about the strength of the hardware for today's passengers/riders (weight)

@elkskiutah8204 Год назад

That set frame did flex quite a bit when Dave sat down'

@stevenpederson1645 Год назад

Instead of cutting down the sides of the seats for more room, what if you were to turn the front and rear sided pieces around ? or swap front and rear locations?

@jimbayler4277 Год назад

Do the photos you showed a few videos back, give you any clues on the placement of your irons ?! Are there other photos in the historical records that could give you additional understanding ?! Flikr, Historical societies, and Museums will also have photo archives.

@glencrandall7051 Год назад

With all the thought you have been putting into this project I would bet when you are done it will be pretty close to the original. Thank you for all your effort. Have a great day and stay safe.🙂🙂

@Jeddco66 Год назад

so my question is how is the back of the roof supported. second question is this a 4 horse power or 6 horse. second a play on "horse" power.

@mrsbobbinlacer Год назад

I love to see your thought process. The people who used these would have to be smaller. There is an old bed at Wheeler farm in Utah that if I lay on it, my feet would hang over the footboard, and I am shorter than a lot of people now. Thank you for sharing.

@AdelinoGambiarras Год назад

It is quite a difficult puzzle but I am shore you will get there in the end. Kind regards from London.

@marlinkojak9882 5 месяцев назад

thanks Dave for a enjoyable program love watching your progress

@MichaelKingsfordGray Год назад

That is the beaty of CAD. You can simulate various options, watching for interference, and when perfected, get accurate measurements for manufacturing. You have "EngelCAD". In your head!

@RaymondWKing-dn8wf Год назад

In looking at the Pictures of the Mud Wagon I'm wondering if the Set behind the Drivers Box wasn't squared up with the back of the Drivers Box. If so, it might be a little uncomfortable riding but that's what it looks like to me. This would give a little more leg room.

@BachZhaa Год назад

What I find unfortunate is there are no examples of this wagon crafting left for you to study. Thousands of these were made and yet you're having to reinvent the wheel, sort of speak. Good on you for adding at least some of this knowledge back. Kudos.

@bobuncle6962 Год назад

I was wondering if the back seat for sitting on was a solid piece of wood. Then the bolts would have support. I don't know how common that large a piece of wood wood have been at basically 48"L by 8"W by maybe 1 inch thick. You are the specialist; the rest of us the willing students.

@GICK117 Год назад

Your dedication to actual against function must be perplexing. It sure is a puzzle you got yourself there. That wagon must have been a very rough riding wagon. I am surprised not to see leaf sprung seats on such an heirloom. I can build a building without blueprints but I definitely couldn't build a wagon like your project from information you've got. You are doing a great job as you go, for sure.

@DeereX748 Год назад

Dave, if you moved the rear-facing front seat even a little toward the front, wouldn't that make the passengers in that seat have to sit bolt-upright, and limit their headroom to the back of the driver's seat?

@Qrail Год назад

Just a comment from the peanut gallery. People were smaller back in the day. I can’t prove it, personally, but anecdotally you might find it to be so.

@bigbossimmotal Год назад

I see exactly what you mean about that upright steel where the young man is holding on to it at the front, and I think you are 100% right, for the front ones. But in the picture, I do not see anything on the sides in the back at all, it looks (to me) like the roof back there was held in place by the seat back. Could the front two have been sideways as you have them, and the rear two be part of the seat back? That may also explain why there are two different sizes/styles. They might be two different things. Also, from the footage of you snipping the bolts off of those irons, you can see from the length of the bolt how much wood they went thru. It doesn't look like any of them are short enough to have only gone thru the 1/2" (or so) part of the seat. They look like they went thru more like 3/4 or 1" on camera. So if those two were seat backs, something must have been different on that seat. Perhaps that one seat was narrower than the other two. Just my thoughts, maybe it will help somehow.

@christophermaurer1271 Год назад

My thought would have been to swap the seat supports to their opposite side. I like to try alternatives that require the least amount of work. This is just my thinking, and should not be misconstrued as my offering, Mr Engel, advise.

@stefanandersson9616 Год назад

I suggest that the steel should be placed on the drivers seat in front of the pole supporting the top. Why? My guess is that the top is like a flat boatbottom turned upside down on the poles, easy to lift of. The holes in the steel maybe for a cleat or a handle or something else. I guess the young man is holding the passengerseat or a handle on it. The lady on the wagon is holding a hat partly hiding the hand.

@stefanandersson9616 Год назад

Or is the young man doing a presenting gesture with the palm of the hand facing upwards.

@patrickmcgroarty9601 Год назад

Looking at the picture of the young man with his hand on the steel brace, it doesn't look to me as if there is a seat side panel there. I believe that the coat of the person standing in the wagon can be seen where there should be a panel blocking that view.

@tolbaszy8067 Год назад

14:00 Finally, there is a skill I am equal to Dave's! Standing in front of a woodstove thinking! Do you think there is some sort of batten under the seat frames to stiffen them? Maybe there was a threaded rod that went from side to side with a central block to form a sort of truss, much like bracing on wooden stepladders. Those frames should also have some mechanical pins in the corners to help maintain the cross grain glue joints. One other observation about the front seat is if the driver's seat angles backwards, it will hit the back of the passengers' heads. Ouch, my pants are on fire! Thanks for the superb video! The camera work and editing for the seat frame stock prep is exceptional!

@cecillanter3207 Год назад

the same guy who laid out the seating on this afterwards must have progressed to the airlines

@1machinist1 Год назад

I know from watching you tat you are a very busy man, I wish you could take the time to watch an old Paul Newman movie named "Hombre" a good part of this movie is filmed aboard and about what they called in the movie a mud wagon. it looks a lot like what you are building. you tube has this movie for free I think this will be a big help. , Scott

@phillipsmith7081 Год назад

Mr. Engles, are there boards at the ends of the seats as framework? The picture does not show wood or am I not looking with two good eyes? There seems to be metal rising from the driver box frame to the top canvas. It looks as if the rider in the driver seat near side has an overcoat hanging behind and through a metal frame. Something is between the photographer and the man sticking his head out from the rear facing seat. Just an observation. You are the master and I am sure you will come to the correct conclusion most historically accurate. I enjoy your videos and your commentary keeping us in the loop. Look forward to the next video.

@garyruark9506 Год назад

The original seat flat bottom design wasn't very innovative. I would have the seat bottom tilt lower front to back a few degrees so when you sit down gravity puts you back in the seat.

@Vikingwerk Год назад

I think from the picture, you are correct that the iron is the top support in the front, and that the seat support should be trimmed an inch. The picture looks like that support and seat is slightly further forward than your test placement, and it does look like the top is not connected to the drivers box, just like you explained. Major detective work on your part!

@tinachambers4887 Год назад

Now I know why the bustle was popular those seats would make walking a pleasure lol have a day love from TEXAS

@davemarshall2203 Год назад

Also was there even backs on the seats? The front seat has the drivers box for a back and the back seat would have the front of the boot for a back & was the center seat was like a backless bench to take extra passengers when necessary. People expected less when traveling on these inter towns routes. Your on my bucket list to just stand and admire some of the equipment in your shop that I grew up with.

@MARKLOCKWOOD2012 Год назад

another trick if your glue hardens up nuke in microwave thirty seconds or less depending on age of your microwave yea it stinks pew wee just on whim once [if the bottle isn’t too old]

@walterulasinksi7031 Год назад

Dave, one consideration comes to mind. The action of the center seat, has a similar function as a folding seat back of a two door vehicle. It flips forward to provide extra entrance into the rear seat. So reshaping those seat supports provides a safety feature.

@billandrew8134 Год назад

I agree , any restoration with poor documentation you spend more time head scratching then noise making , Bill

@richparker7778 Год назад

Thank you Dave for sharing . I just started my first rebuild which is a horse drawn grain wagon and i have been scouring your videos to try and glean some knowledge.

@OddBall1958 Год назад

Just curious as to, would the bolts/holes line up with each other for the upper and lower irons? And would that dictate the width of the seat? Great job by the way!

@MsRazvan29 Год назад

Respekt Meister Bravo ❤❤❤

@mailleweaver Год назад

Those irons are definitely not seat back braces unless they mounted underneath and had a mid stile to bolt into. If they were on top, then passengers will end up sitting on the irons and (more uncomfortably) the ends of the bolts that stick up through them.

@pauls4708 Год назад

good work.I woud imagine that you would be a larger man than the average man of 1900 or so??

@outlawflyer7868 Год назад

From what the pictures you have shown of the old wagon, it doesn't even look like there are side boards to the seats. It looks like if you just moved the middle seat past those irons, it would space out evenly. The side boards to the front seat just need to be flipped around. put the right one on the left and the left one on the right.

@aaronneumeyer5572 Год назад

One thing I notice from the picture is that the front rear facing passenger seat does not appear to have a solid side to it, unlike those you have crafted. The area under the seat, straight below where the young man's hand meets the cuff of his shirt looks to be wide open with perhaps just a straight, slender board supporting the seat bottom on this end. This would be a bit less sturdy but might be exactly in keeping with your thoughts of a less expensive version of the Wells Fargo coaches.

@tombuffumjr1509 Год назад

Hi Dave I do understand your pain as to working from little to nothing in no plans I work in Conrad mt for the theater hear Ann’s once to three times a year and i build stage sets no plans. The derector try’s to tell me what they want and have to put in the stage and it has to be moveable and a lot of time is spent trying to work this out and spending time looking at a pile of wood and make it work. Men like us think differently than others we try to look at the project and build it in are mind first because we don’t want to build it tow or three times to get right

@davidoliver2826 Год назад

What if the seat back irons were in a configuration that made them for a short back. In other word flip the iron so that the long end fastens to the seat. Does the picture show any clues?

@samuelspencer9194 Год назад

Mister engale I think you need about 10 more clamps lol love your videos be safe and have a great day Sam

@MARKLOCKWOOD2012 Год назад

why not see if the Mrs. and you sit in the wagon fool around [ha ha] get your mind out of the gutter but seriously see how the dummy bench seats spacing

@GlenPorter1 Год назад

Dave, Your work is fascinating! My grandfather was a boilermaker for the Pennsylvania Railroad. After he retired, he kept all his blacksmithing tools in his garage (a giant anvil, a blacksmith's vise, big S shaped wrenches, lots of hammers, tongs, and other tools, hundreds of carriage bolts and rivets in wooden trays, etc.). I remember seeing them when I was a child. This inspired me to become a metallurgical engineer. I have some ideas about the reconstruction. If you flip the lower part of the seats around “backwards” from how they were positioned in the video, then the shorter side of the risers will be where you want them. It’s an easy fix and it allows you to retain the beautiful curves. Why not move the irons for the seat backs to the outer sides of the seat with the horizontal part parallel to the length of the coach? That way the bolts would be on the outside of the risers and would be bolted to the thicker wood in the seat. This would also provide the framework to attach the top to. All the best~!