Ep. 290 | 6.5 Creedmoor vs .308 Winchester. Which is better? 

This is why I love the 7mm-08 it sits right between the two...

I'm confused now. I have believed; - 6.5 CM for long distance paper - 7mm RM for long distance meat. - 308/30-06 for big critters close-in. - 375 HH for fangs and claws.

This is cool. How about the 270 Winchester vs the 6.5 PRC and to make Mark smile how about 300 WSM vs the 300 PRC.

I’m still a 308 man. Mainly because I’m heavily invested firearms chambered in the cartridge and reloading for it, but also I’m a traditionalist. I recognize 6.5CM is a capable hunting cartridge; the Swedes have been taking reindeer for decades with the 6.5x55 which is pretty much a ballistic twin of the CM. However, the 308 has more energy, can shoot heavier bullets, and makes a bigger hole. Within 300 yards I’d argue it has more killing power and the superior ballistics of the 6.5CM don’t come into play.

Hands down the best channel on RU-vid! Thank you for all the $ and efforts put into these videos. You guys have my dream job.

Really neat video. I really liked seeing the penetration test of the two rifles. We know for a fact, based on a long history, that a .308 shooting a 150 grain cup and core bullet is ample white tail/ muley medicine. This proves that the 6.5 is also ample. Even though we have evidence of the 6.5x55 doing quite well as a big game cartridge in Sweden and Norway. we also have a long history of 6.5s being used to great affect in Africa on plains game. But, you are comparing apples and oranges. A 150 grain .308 bullet has a substantially lower sectional density than a 140 grain 6.5mm bullet. I would expect a bullet with a sectional density of .226 to be out performed by a bullet with a sectional density of .287 if we assume similar bullet construction and fairly similar velocities. We can not overstate the importance of a bullet's construction and it's sectional density.

Great job guys, love the show. It’s gonna be the 308 for me. Recently read an article about an eastern hunter with tracking dogs used for finding wounded deer. The owner of the dogs mentioned he noticed more work from his dogs since the popularity of the 6.5 creedmoor. He basically mentioned the eastern woods are much thicker than out west making tracking more difficult. and the 30 cal bullets drop deer much faster. It makes since a 165-180 grain 30 cal bullet just hits harder than a 6.5mm 140 grain bullet. You get more of the “boom flop” affect you guys mention. Huge fan you guys rock.

Really enjoyed this new tact your taking. I commented on the other podcast about comparing the 165 to the 147. But let me share some personal experience that led me away from the 6.5. I shot an Axis doe for meat several years ago. Short shot, 50 yards. Behind the shoulder transversing the body cavity. The load was a 129 ABLR Nosler@ over 2900 fps. The bullet went clean through and the doe ran 100 yards with almost no blood. The shot was perfect as it took off the top of the heart and blew through the lungs. Just a year later I broke out the 308 700 and hit a buck at 50 yards, shoulder shot. 165 @ 2700fps. The deer ran 50 yards and collapsed. Much bigger exit wound, a lot more blood and there was absolutely nothing left of the lungs! This led me to the conclusion that a 308 is a superior hunting cartridge at normal ranges. Key word, normal ranges. Longer ranges,the 6.5 reigns supreme.

I love your guys' unscripted interactions. The dialogue in the cartridge comparison video had me rolling my eyes the whole time even though I largely agreed with the results.

We need to look at the bullet options used in this comparrison and contemplate. The 140gr lead option in 6.5 CM has a much higher SD than a stubby 150gr .308 bullet. Atleast it should've been a 165gr option which would've had roughly the same entry speed as the 140gr and, given the additional weight, penetrate a little deeper than the 150gr. Maybe not equal to 140gr, but much closer most definetly with a much bigger permanent wound cavity because of kinetic energy advantage. Second, he monolithic option for the .308 was on the heavier side than typical options used in .308. If it were a 150gr option, I guarantee it would've penetrated equal or more than the 130gr option in 6.5 CM, because of increase speed / momentum. 165gr mono in .308 takes up significant case capacity and affects its speed. 130gr in 6.5cm would still be doing about 2850 ft/s compared to 2650ft/s from 165gr .308. Re-run this test with the following bullets: Lead options: 6.5 CM = 120gr Core Lokt (SD = 0,248) .308 = 165gr Core Lokt (SD = 0,248) Mono options. 6.5 CM = 120gr TTSX (SD = 0,248) .308 = 150gr TTSX (SD = 0 226) Then you'll have an apples to apples comparison and possibly a different outcome.

you gave the advantage to the 6.5. Now, you have to do one where you use the bullets that have a similar bc and SD

When doing which is better you should not use close to same bullet weight. Use the best bullet for the job in each caliber, like a 6.5 143gr vs a 308 178 gr for big game. Under 500 yards a smaller diameter, lighter bullet vs a heavier larger diameter bullet is going to have a much different result, especially if hitting bone.

There's no free lunch with ballistics. The extra penetration of the copper bullets comes at the cost of a smaller diameter wound channel. The bullet only has so much energy so to penetrate further it much cling to the energy. Only way to get a bullet to penetrate further and do the same amount of damage is to change to a cartridge with more energy. My father and I both hunted with copper this year. I shot 2 deer with my 308, 1 at 120 yards and 1 at 250 yards. Both were DRT. I was using the 168mkz from cavity back which expands very large. My father shot 2 deer with his 6.5 creed at 150 yards using the 120ttsx. Both ran 50 yards with no blood trail and tiny exit wounds. He made perfect shots so the bullet still did the job. After hunting season I shot both bullets into gel. At a 100 yards the 120ttsx only expanded to .44". meanwhile the 168mkz expanded to .85". His bullet penetrated much further due to the smaller diameter but mine dumped all its energy, resulting in DRT kills with fist size holes.

I think the better comparison in the cup and core would have had the 308 in 165ish. The 308 was light at 150 and it with more velocity in theory.

It is important to note that some copper alloy bullets are designed to open at lower velocities than others. Not all require 2,000fps, for example. Some are designed for intermediate-power cartridges like the 300 blackout, 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel and can open at speeds of 1,500 fps or below. There are even some designed to open at subsonic velocities. As the guys said, it is important to know what your bullet can do and stay within its operational range.

Great job! It would be interesting to see the gains by going to a cartridge firing a similar weight/design projectile at an increased velocity eg, 6.5 prc 270win

I'd like to volunteer all the shoulder blades and hides from the deer I shoot this year. Please do this test, again, with hide and bone over the ballistics gel!

What a joy on a Monday morning! 👍 well done gents.

6.5PRC vs 270Win. Needs to be tested next. The numbers are so close together on them both. It needs to be tested. New vs Old again.....

You guys did a great job with this.. good info. I appreciate your experience

This is kind of old now, but something i noticed that wasn't mentioned is the 6.5 penetrated much deeper than the 308 did before the permanent cavity started. So the 6.5 could possibly go half way thru the animal before it did most of its damage.

I absolutely enjoyed this video with show and tell. Thank you for all the efforts behind the scenes gentlemen. This is why I look every day for new content from your podcasts.

Have a model 70 classic in .308, have yet to see why I need anything else. the gun far out ranges my eyes. If the target is 500 yards, I stalk a bit closer, that's part of hunting.

Volume of a cylinder can point towards. 6.5 had a depth of 27 and expanded radius of 0.375 which gives a volume of 11.93 cubic inches. 308 had a depth of 20 and expanded radius of 0.4375 which gives a volume of of just over 12.04 cubic inches. There is no significant difference there. Would have liked to see the test with a 165-168 cup and core for 308 to even out sectional density, which would equal out penetration and expansion would be the same. At 27” penetration, the 308 would be at 16.24. That would be a 30% increase in damage.

In my experience the three bucks my wife and I have shot with her creedmore was a fatal shot with awesome placement. HOWEVER even with shot placement the shots didn’t take the deer down. They all ran hundreds of yards before they fell. Yes I know it sounds like we made bad shots, but I assure we made excellent vital shots. The round is moving too fast for how small it is in my opinion. It’s like shooting a green tip 556. Yes it will get the job done but it won’t take the deer off it’s feet and make it clean and over like one would hope. Iv used 30-30 and 3006 and ever deer Iv ever shot other than with the creed more took their last step and didn’t suffer when the shot was taken. I can’t say that with the 6.5. I’m sure it has had different results for other but it’s made us put it in the safe and just leave it as a back up. 30 cal is the way to go imo.

the progression of podcast to gel testing to discussing the results and diving deeper.... LOVED IT!!! I've killed WT and Mule deer with both cartridge's and all deer we equally dead. I would love to see you guys do the same test with 3 calibers: 7mm reg mag vs. 300 WSM vs. 300 Win mag... I think that would have some surprising results too. I'm not convinced 300 win mags are the king of the hill like most hunters think they are

Inside 300 - 308 Win all day long. More energy on target and 27% more frontal area, with negligible difference in drop.

Great research boys! As a new shooter and hunter its educational to see how these two calibers match up. With 308 being easier to get and affordability of it, maybe 6.5 will get to that point making it easier choice.

🤔 For Future Reference, Mentioning the Barrel Length of Each Gun is Important and Chronographing the Velocities (instead of just mentioning the velocities on the factory loads)! 🤪

Up next .270 vs 6.5 creedmoor!

Excellent video, love seeing this type of testing. And the dialog was waaaay better than the scripted style of the previous 6.5 vs 308 video

There are more high bc 30 cal projectiles on the market now, and 308 can push most of those projectiles at respectable velocities, thus kinda narrowing the gap, and in ways beats 6.5cm. I'll stick with 308 👍🏼

7mm-08 for hunting 500y and in.

I think the argument between the two for hunting is like arguing over a Honda Civic holding up better against a F350 at 65mph or a F450 at 60mph. Shot placement is the most important factor in my opinion.

Imagine using the 130gn barnes in the 308. That was a heavy copper load for a 308.

In the Beginning of the video you mentioned how wide a deer is, and I want to compare that to where the permanent wound cavity is (the most damage). Even something as big as a Kudu or Gemsbuck, is not that wide. I Frankly could not care less if the bullet passes through or not, as long as the widest part of the wound channel is in the chest cavity

This was immensely helpful in my quest for the one bolt gun for all large game in North America. Try to figure out what would cover everything from coyotes and boars to bears. This gives me more food for thought. Thank you for the great information fellas.

Fantastic video and hope to see more just like it. My only suggestion would be to compare bullets with similar sectional densities for a more accurate representation of penetration. A 190 gr. 308 would be comparable to the 140 gr. 6.5 bullet. This would obviously affect the drop and drift as well. The intended use would be the deciding factor for me on which of these cartridges is better. If I was shooting moose at 150 yards I would opt for the 308, pronghorn at 400 yards I would go with the 6.5.

Inside 500 yard dose it really matter. Most game is shot inside 200 yards.

I look forward to seeing more comparisons like this one.

I'm interested in PRC family of cartridges along with the Creedmoor. I enjoy the newer close tolerance chamber offerings.

Damn guys, I'm 6 months new to firearms and looking to buy my first rifle. Coming from the movie industry I have to say this content covers every element in a spectacular way. There's a real 'at home with family' feeling from the vortex podcasts. As an outsider looking in I'd say you could probably punt your glass a little more often, I'm in the market for an optic and the choice is endlessly confusing even after watching podcasts. I also walked away from these episodes still not knowing which caliber is best for hunting certain size game. Example, I'm from south africa and clearly the 6.5 is sufficient for springbok but then I hear thing like it's not enough for blue wildebeest and one needs a heavier bullet. Maybe I missed it in the show but ultimately it comes down to bullet choice between the two and they both have similar take down power? Enkosi kakhulu

Was hoping for a bonus feature of the fabled .308 130 gr Barnes load!

In the 308WIN vs 6.5CM debate, the clear winner is 7mm-08REM. Especially with the 145gr Barnes LRXBT bullet.

Shoot what you love , love what you shoot. Practice makes perfect, been practicing with my 308 for 40 years, guess I’ll keep shooting it. If I had more than 600 meters to shoot I may try something different but I don’t.

Gotta love these podcasts. Well done boys.

When are you going to talk about the Nosler Partition for North American big game hunting and even whitetails?

I don‘t understand the positive connotation of massive penetration depth here. In ethical shots for the average hunter, so at max quartering away slightly inside 300 yards, the Barnes will just come out the other end with significant speed. That means that way less energy was dumped in the target. Even on a perfect lung shot this will lead to longer distances until the game drops, which in low light or rough terrain might make the difference between finding the game or not. Sure if you are a perfect shot, you always hit the high shoulder immobilizing the game and if this is your one chance to get that ticket game, the massive penetration depth of the Barnes is a plus. And if you are not as perfect as you thought there is at least more likely a blood trail to follow 😂

308 for the win. Next question.

Great new format with cartridge talk.

This was very enjoyable. I personally enjoy the longer format vs the first video. I say keep doing both for views but this is the one I am likely to watch. My vote of curiosity is the 300 wsm vs the 6.8 western or 6.5 prc. I bought my WSM back in 07. 300 WSM feels almost left behind on ammo selection since 2021. I don't hunt anything but steel and paper these days an the rifle now weighs 18 pounds (without optic) and most of my ammo fired is reloaded because I can't find the factory stuff I liked. Barrel has about 500ish (depending on how I shoot it) left of "accurate" life. Been pondering the will the next barrel be a different caliber that fits my bolt head and magazines because of factory availability.

I'd like to see a .300 WSM vs 7 PRC comparison, and a .270 Winchester vs 7mm 08 comparison. Maybe throw the 30-06 in those, too, as a "control" base to compare them.

I enjoy the comparison, but not sure the comparison is necessary. As others have pointed out one flies flatter and one hits harder. Choose the one that best fits your needs. If the .308 kicks too much for you drop down to the 7mm/08.

“I’ve heard you make better slapping sounds” 👀

I would love to see you place a flat hard plate 6 or 8 inches inside the gel as it’s formed to simulate bone.

Seriously, no joke, should have included .223 Rem. to this discussion with a varmint load, a cup/core, and a monolithic copper load out of a AR/bolt gun. Would be interesting to see how similar or dissimilar the results would've been.

Absolutely love these podcasts!!!

If you are only hunting paper, steel, and deer… 6.5CM is pretty efficient. If you are hunting paper, steel, deer, moose, and elk the 308WIN with 175-180gr bullets is a better choice. The 7mm-08 is arguably the best of both worlds… the sweet spot balance. Of course, having one of each in your safe is the best if you can manage it. 😉👍🏼

Would of been awesome to see what each round would do to the gel block though a piece of hide or even bones

After listening to that Hornady Terminal ballistics podcast you guys did, and also looking into Trauma surgeon findings, I find that the most important part of the bullets work is that first 'big' wound cavity. Take time and learn how things die, then you will know that all this knock down, pass through, energy dump stuff makes very little to no difference in killing the animal.

I’m skeptical of shooting monos for whitetail deer. Very little blood loss. I shot a few whitetails with Hammers (love loading them) and they dropped but noticed very little blood. Good video. Have to keep in mind actual harvesting of game is somewhat different than gel but understand have to use something. Thanks

Pincers vs pinchers LOL. If you're of a certain age, you may remember Pat McManus. He once wrote about his expert use of hand tools: the squeezer, the twister, the banger.... Many good laughs over the years.

I wish you had thrown in the 708 just for fun.

This is exactly 💯 right. This is what i was talking about yesterday. Good job guys.

Ryan, you said you would do anything for cartridge science... Would you love to work with... An elk, ballistic flesh, 'dense ballistic gel' for muscle, ballistic gel for organs, Something lighter for lung space, and something printed for skeletal structure.... Or even... Elk. Skeletal, with ballistic gel bodies? And then shoot through the bones, to see what it does to the wound track after bone impact?

What an absolute great series

I've gone through alot of your guys' videos and I gotta say excellent video fellas. Sad Jimmy didn't get to appear as well. I hope we get to see more of these direct Cartridge comparison tests. Some things I think would help entertain and show the results little better would be, after excavating the bullets, pouring some hard setting wax or resin down the wound channel to be able to take some more exact measurements and show them off in a cool way. Keep up the great work fellas

Great video and info! I think your breezed through one of the most important categories. COST! 308 in most cases is half the cost. If you buy more ammo you can shoot more and become a better shooter!

The 6.5Cm is a more modern and better all around cartridge than the 308. Much like 243 or 270 was to the 30-30 back in the day. This is coming from a 308 user with no plans to change.

The TSX loadings interested me, learned things I have never been able to see. One thing that I would like to see tested is the Federal TSX loading for 30-30, because it seems to not line up with the first thought in my mind talking velocity needed to expand.

I'd like to see this comparing cartridge in the same caliber, like 45-70 vs 450 bushmaster, 7mm-08 vs 7mm Rem Mag, or 300 Win Mag vs 300 Weatherby

Amazing video guys! Problem solved I bougth both, 308 for me and 6.5 for my girlfriend. Keep doing!

I think the 6.5 gets a bad reputation sometimes because some people don’t understand bullets. Some people are shooting a bullet that’s to tough at to long of a range or to soft at to close of range. It really is a fabulous cartridge but it’s not a fast one so bullet selection can be more important sometimes.

Used an M110 in 7.62x51 in service, it's a very solid performer. After service I purchased the SW Performance Center MP10 in 6.5 Creed. 0 to 500M they are essentially equal. After 500M I'll take 6.5 on game (whitetail and smaller) or targets. Love a .308 but nowadays I shoot 5.56mm, 9mm, and 6.5 Creedmoor, don't need or want anything else

My state has a minimum caliber requirement for Elk of .277 so that could factor into choice of rifle if you could only have one. Something to consider.

What is the minimum amount of velocity and energy recommended for copper bullets to expand effectively?

You should have chosen the projectiles that were similar in SD as you used penetration as a key metric. Higher SD projectiles in any caliber have thicker jackets and penetrate better- generally. The penetration differences go away with copper, then it is the velocity at impact and bore/frontal area consideration. You should repeat the test with a better projectile selection to remove some of the variables. Normalise for impact velocity as a minimum with similar projectile construction and SD.

Here's something a lot of people might not know about bullet diameter and killing ability.Germany made the 8 mm cartridge then they designed the 7mm cartridge and everything they did as far as testing went said it was the better round so they switched over to 7 mm. However, after using it on people they noticed that a 7 mm wound could heal itself over whereas an 8 mm wound could not. So Germany switched back over to the 8mm round for that main reason. That slightly larger diameter bullet would not be able to close itself off without medical attention. After reading and talking to a lot of different people , it would seem that if your shot is off a little bit.You will have a much smaller Blood Trail and stand a higher risk of losing the animal.

308 is deadlier 300 yards and in. The 6.5 is better option past 300

I have a 308 BLR for in the scrub pig hunting and a Sako A7 6.5mm creed Moor for deer up to 350m. Neither has ever let me down on a hunt

I really enjoy yalls cartridges talks and Ryan's perspective on these things. PS. It's. 300 W. S. M. Not wissum.

just so on point with so much,, had my wife watch a bit of it,, i told her this was us when i worked at the gun stores

Such a great video guys! Thanks for sharing your thoughts and all the information.

Great presentation and very informative. Looking forward to more of these.

To add more data to the equation. Hornady 150gr Inter Bond 308 gave a complete pass through on a 1400+ lb American Bison under 100 yards. The was a rib shot heart/double lung hit.

Whatching end of video... I have idea for video... Instead of Picking a cartridge.. Ryan mentioned once pick a region, a rifle,.. then a cartridge... It really got me thinking!!! Most all people pick a cartridge first lol And really thinking about it... That makes little to no sense to me now!!! To pick the best cartridge.. First probally should be species and area... And on down the list, caliber and bullet selection?? Once velocity needs are balanced.. then cartridge?? So Maybe a video on all that!?!?!?! The importance of all the other things to figure out before the cartridge!!!?

I have a Mossberg Predator 7.62x51/308. I reload with IMR4895, 165gr Speer, Federal magnum primers and Federal, Winchester or Remington cases. I downed my first moose at 228 yards. The bullet entered the right side through a rib, took out both lungs, and took out another rib on the way out. My father in law who has always used a 30-06 was very impressed as he thought the 308 was inadequate for moose hunting. The moose stumbled 14 yards and dropped. I will never stop using my 308 unless the shot is over 300 yards, then I use my Parker Hale 300 Win Mag. Stay safe and happy shooting.

How do guys from Vortex get bullets out of ballistics gel? With a Docter cut

that was great and appreciated

I know what that gel slap sounded like 😂

My thoughts on why the solid metal bullets get better penetration vs their cup and core counterparts. The distinct four petal design of the mono bullets act more like a four blade broad head. Less surface area to slow them down as fast. Which leads to that propeller type effect in the gel that they are known for. And over all better penetration. After my youngest used my AR with a cup and core on her first deer. I decided that we either needed to use a copper bullet or a bigger caliber. The cup and core killed the whitetail, but didn't leave an exit. Making blood tracking impossible for me. Thankfully a body hunt with a neighbors help, recovered the little buck. I think the 70gr Barnes TSX might give a better result. Haven't had on game experience with it yet, to confirm.

Do a 357 mag review like this or 44 mag (rifle vs pistol)

6.8 Western vs ... up to you! . When a episode with Nicholas Laufenberg talking about his new Book: "The Precision Marksman".? Thanks Mark and Ryan.

Naturally I think the 6.5 creed vs 6 creed should be next. How small is too small? Where do you ACTUALLY lose killing power with bullet diameter/weight

Well done! Have been using the .308 for many many years, however have just started using the 6.5 recently due to having eye surgery. Love both. With that said I also have a love affair with the .260 remington. recently built one from a Savage model 11 and love how it shoots. Would love to hear your thoughts on the .260.

But you can load 180 gr bullets in a 308 and at most hunting ranges that makes a huge difference in terminal performance.

Very informative you guys are funny, entertaining as you fire back and forth

I agree 308 all day it's barrel life is way longer than any 6.5 and if i need or want to shoot i then go to my 338Lapua magnum

Can we look at .350 legend and .300 blk specifically with subsonic proformance PLEASE?!

These are great talks