Episode 16 | Ancestors of Chinese, Vietnamese and… Pacific Islanders? Baiyue people | 百越人 

Baba dan Nyonya

I literally hopped off the boat from China and people in Singapore are wondering if I were not Chinese. My family is Foochow

Why don't you do a DNA test?

China is a huge place with a lot of internal diversity. Half of my family are from northern China and I sometimes get mistaken as Korean.

Think about how companies like 23-and-me figure out where you are form when they make those genetic tests. There are in fact, no genetic test to determine where you are from. What they are doing is comparing your genes to those of other people already in their database, and THAT is where your % result comes from. But how do they know where those people come from? Simple, when you send for a test, they have your address. How do they know if you're descended from immigrants or indigenous people? Well, they ask you. And there in lies the problem. There are lots of immigrants from China who have assimilated nearly completely. For example, Bongbong, Digong, Noynoy all have partial Chinese ancestry. But if they're taking a 23-and-me test, and the form has checkboxes for "local" and "immigrant", they're gonna tick "local". Even the king of Thailand has partial Chinese ancestry. These are people who KNOWS they have ancestors who came from China, but they identify as "local" and not "immigrant". There are a lot more who don't know they have ancestors who came from China. Especially poorer people, who don't keep records of their ancestry that far back. Decades ago, when I was in school, I had a classmate who's dad was Malay but his mom was Chinese. Malaysian Chinese. Probably many generations in the country, like, she didn't just immigrated from China. Anyway, he insists that he is 100% Malay, even though at the same time, he says his mom was "formerly" Chinese. But since she converted, she isn't "really Chinese" anymore. I didn't keep in touch with him. But I bet his grandchildren today present as 100% Malay, and none of their friends knows they had a Chinese grandmum. Give it two more generations, and the family themselves may not be aware of it. The only reason we knew was because she came to school one day. Now, there is a lot of overlap in the appearance of Malays and Chinese. Sometimes, it is impossible to tell. But sometimes, it is impossible to deny, despite how she dressed.

That was a great Museum. I was going to mention it as well for people to visit. (I assume you are talking about 西漢南越王博物館 or Western Han Nan Yue King Museum on 867 Jiefang Road in Guangzhou)

I was meaning The Site of Nanyue Kingdom Palace 南越王宫博物馆 in Yuexiu District. Is it the same?

Thanks for your support - please help spread the podcast if you enjoy this content - appreciate it!!

不止南方，整个中国沿海地区古代都居住着百越人

Thank you for your kind words and for your support! Help spread the word haha, 谢谢你!

Baiyue descendants are Zhuang Hmong and Li peoples

You are giving misleading information , Baiyue was never one group of people, but different people /tirbes, you are pretending those are same people . And in ancient time baiyue are not used to refer vietnamese.

U should use they Chinese way for they to understand. Ou Yue and Lou Yue

@kelly ma I never said Southern Chinese and Vietnamese are the same. But they do share similar origins via the maternal side. Some Bai Yue tribes fled to North Vietnam intermix with the locals. Also Nam Viet/ Nan Yue kingdom which consisted of North Vietnam, Guangdong, Guangxi, Hainan and Hong Kong used to be one country. Immigration and intermixing was bound to happen. These are facts I suggest you read the Birth of Vietnam by Keith Weller Taylor. He gives a neutral view with both Chinese & Vietnamese sources. Proto Vietnamese were originally Muong that got mix with Kra-Dai speaking tribes and later with Han Chinese. Your answer in regards to Vietnamese being related to Khmer/ Cambodian is completely false. Vietic Language which should be a separate isolated language it's a mix between Proto Viet Muong & Annamese Middle Chinese. There very few influences from other Austroasiatic languages. The main difference being it's tonal , some of the pronunciation, most of the grammar and structure is similar to middle Chinese and some Tai Kadai words.

@@anhlam7131 ''Guangdong, Guangxi, Hainan and Hong Kong used to be one country''This has never happened before. If they were a nation then they were based on a larger framework, namely the period when Vietnam was unified by China. According to modern genetic studies, the percentage of o3 genes in the southern Han Chinese was 80%, while the percentage of female Han genes was half that of males, which means that when the Han conquered the BaiYue in the south, their males were either slaughtered or driven out, leaving only the females, plus the Han males at that time had a higher status and had access to more marriage resources. The Vietnamese and southern Chinese may share the same maternal genes, but you may have overlooked the fact that they also probably share the same Han paternal genes.

Thanks mate!

壮族就是百越的一支，我福建福州人，古代的闽越国，福州话已经汉化，但是还残留有一些百越语词汇，我发现这些词汇和泰语老挝语壮语一样或类似

Bai Yue/Bach viet tribes .Ethnic groups who inhabited the regions of Southern China.InThe local minority speaks a Thai language related to northern Thai, a language spoken in Chiang Mai! When I tried to speak with a lady at a ‘Thai’ restaurant south of the Mekong river, I realised they use words in common with central Thai like ‘mai’ (wood), ‘nam’ (liquid) and ‘phak’ (vegetable), but their words for greetings were totally different from central Thai (‘sawasdee krap’), and so was the their word for rice (‘kao’ in central Thai). The touristic concrete architecture is Thai-inspired, but there are old houses with Thai style too, and there are buddhist monks. If the current hypotheses are true, the Thai population of Thailand emanate from the Shan states in Burma which emanate from southern Yunnan.

While the original Vietic culture in Laos and Thailand are nomadic peoples who practice Theravada Buddhism and shamanism have complete absolute zero Chinese influence

​@@cudanmang_theoghow does there have original Vietic if the Vietnamese in Vietnam used the culture of China from 111BC?

@@lmvietnamchannel8715 i think the answer is founded in how the first words that any baby able to say ( which is father and mother ) is directly comefrom Thai Lao Language (Tai KaDai) : Bố/Dad & Mẹ/Mom (North Vietnam way of saying those word) and Cambodia Language (Mon Khmer) : Ba/Dad & Má/Mom (South Vietnam way of saying those word) . Any other words that any baby learn to say in any time history is not as essential in defining the lineage as that two words. (Cause even if all the families fled for war, and marry another nation citizen , the way generations of kids still not use Han Chinese words mean that how generations of kids get to learn about their root)

Ruan is the dynasty of the Champa people. Even the old Dai Viet people considered them not to be of the same race

Bai Yue/Bach viet tribes .Ethnic groups who inhabited the regions of Southern China.InThe local minority speaks a Thai language related to northern Thai, a language spoken in Chiang Mai! When I tried to speak with a lady at a ‘Thai’ restaurant south of the Mekong river, I realised they use words in common with central Thai like ‘mai’ (wood), ‘nam’ (liquid) and ‘phak’ (vegetable), but their words for greetings were totally different from central Thai (‘sawasdee krap’), and so was the their word for rice (‘kao’ in central Thai). The touristic concrete architecture is Thai-inspired, but there are old houses with Thai style too, and there are buddhist monks. If the current hypotheses are true, the Thai population of Thailand emanate from the Shan states in Burma which emanate from southern Yunnan.

even the word yue(越) mean far or very far so ....😂😂😂

中国古代百就是泛指特别多的意思

all baiyue are the same type of asian as vietnamese not chinese. baiyue in china assimilated into chinese culture due to qin dynasty invading. So yes they are more like vietnamese than chinese people, since vietnam is the only baiyue kingdom with baiyue minorities. Baiyue are hoabinhian, they are different to Han Chinese. Qin invaded South China which was south east asian at the time.

Qin dynasty caused a lot of baiyue to fled to Champa Kingdom.

Kra-Dai Zhuang were likely native to Taiwan before being pushed south by Austronesians and other “Bai Yue” groups. This is a copy for another troll but it still applies: With dna testing of burial sites, there’s now a widely corroborated two layer model that explain “bai yue” (austroasiatic, kradai, Austronesian, Hmong-mien) migration into SEA. First wave were the hoabinhians which were black, they were hunter gatherers that have been there for 10s of thousands of years. Second wave were austroasiatics neolithics starting in 2000bc which were not black. These people were rice agriculturalist who were being pushed south by other “Bai Yue” rice agriculturalist like Thais/Zhuang, Hmong, and Austronesians, way before the invasions by millet farming Han Chinese. This happened over the course of a 1000 years so the first austroasiatics that came to SEA mixed with black hoabinhians until hoabinhians became extinct. These people became modern Mon, Khmers and Chuts, etc. Remember that hoabinhians are sparsely populated hunter gatherers mixing with larger population Neolithic rice farming agriculturalists, meaning negrito hoabinhians play an important, but tiny part in even Mon, Khmer and Chut genomes. Believe it or not, Kinh Vietnamese do not have hoabinhian dna. This is because by the time Bronze Age (aka Dong Son culture) rice farming agriculturist austroasiatics arrived to the Red River delta (1000bc) the pure hoabinhians were already bred out of existence. Ancestors of Kinh Vietnamese didn’t understand the chuts and Khmers were our mixed race Neolithic cousins and treated them like barbarians. Kinh Vietnamese are native to the Red River Delta for any Zhuang Chinese reading this. Y’all didn’t even know you were cousins of the Thailand Thais until three decades ago so I can’t imagine the CCP gives you freedom to do honest scholarship on this topic. The CCP likely doesn’t want to risk you guys fighting for independence so they allow the release of scholarships that keep you busy and focused on claiming the Red River Delta and Dong Son culture. Recent Dna testing of Dong Son burial sites in the Red River Delta show the natives were austroasiatic showing CCP and Chamberlain “research” from before 2010 utter nonsense. Remember, by 1000bc, all rice farming Bai Yue tribes south of the Yangtze River became Bronze Age metallurgists. An Duong Vuông admittingly was a Zhuang/Thai man that conquered the Red River Delta unifying “guangxi” (kra-dai speaking Au Viet) and red River (austroasiatic speaking Lac Viet) into Au Lac. But only for a short time until the Chinamen Zhao Tuo conquered the whole area and created “Nanyue”. Sadly, you guys never gained independence. Vietnamese language today has a Thai substrate because of that history. Doesn’t make you guys native to the Red River. Instead of trying to claim other people’s history, fight for your own independence.. 🇻🇳🤝🇹🇭 leminhkhai.blog/viet-origins-nguon-goc-nguoi-viet-2021-version/ leminhkhai.blog/how-vietnamese-genetic-scientists-are-erasing-the-past/

Bai Yue/Bach viet tribes .Ethnic groups who inhabited the regions of Southern China.InThe local minority speaks a Thai language related to northern Thai, a language spoken in Chiang Mai! When I tried to speak with a lady at a ‘Thai’ restaurant south of the Mekong river, I realised they use words in common with central Thai like ‘mai’ (wood), ‘nam’ (liquid) and ‘phak’ (vegetable), but their words for greetings were totally different from central Thai (‘sawasdee krap’), and so was the their word for rice (‘kao’ in central Thai). The touristic concrete architecture is Thai-inspired, but there are old houses with Thai style too, and there are buddhist monks. If the current hypotheses are true, the Thai population of Thailand emanate from the Shan states in Burma which emanate from southern Yunnan.

They all and even Vietnamese have Han blood mixed in 2000 years

@@dk.magic.mobile108 No. You are wrong. There is no evidence that Vietnamese people have Han blood. Genetic and DNA testing showed that Vietnamese people do not have Han Chinese DNA

Tattooing is also Vietnamese culture. During the 2nd Mongol invasion of Dai Viet (Vietnam), all solders are tattooed with Sát Thát.

This is definitely a strong theory and something I raised in the episode! The approved theory these days is that Polynesians originated from Taiwan, however it is said the Taiwanese aborigines themselves migrated from southern China, and were perhaps the Baiyue people.

Baiyue people more look like Dayaknese people in Kalimantan

More look like Filipinos and native taiwanese more like it​@@Bolansnoopyngang. Dayaks are mix of austroasiatic and austronesians.

Austronesian men migrated to Papua and intermix then created the Polynesian race

Parts of Hmong and Tai population were also in southern China until they got pushed south.

Khi bố bạn phải chạy loạn bạn mới biết được cũng giống như người du mục vậy

I cover this in Episode 57. If it interests you, please check it out!

I didn't know about the tadpole script - thank you so much for your comment! It's always great when you learn something new :)

Baiyue =Chinese Han peoples（South China Fujian/Guangdong ) /Vietnamese peoples

That Chinese who replies you saying baiyue is a Han never read current research about DNA of Viet and Chinese. Everywhere he goes he says Baiyue is Han. He is even saying Dayak is Malay. Based on current research Malay is in one are of dna with Java and Thai. Dayak one area with Vietnamnese. He only depends on wikipedia but never read the real book and the real research Y DNA o haplogroup and MT DnA.

Baiyue Chinese legend =Fuxi /Goujian

@@Bolansnoopyngang Austronesian language ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-TYEBCqSP61A.html Dayak language ru-vid.comEeyamMG6cPU?feature=share different? similar?

Not true - the Yue Kingdom was not a Duchy/Franchised Kingdom under the Zhou Dynasty. Your point raises an important thing about the nature of the kingdoms during the Spring & Autumn Period - that NOT ALL of the kingdoms during this period were "zhuhou" kingdoms created by the Zhou Dynasty. True - many of the kingdoms in the Central China Plains e.g the Qin, Jin and Qi states were of Huaxia culture and had been created by the Zhou Dynasty kings, but other kingdoms - such as the Chu, the Wu and the Yue - were culturally much more distinct from the Central China Plains kingdoms. There have been records that the Yue kingdom had existed even before the establishment of the Zhou dynasty and that it was founded by the son of Shao Kang, a famous general in the Xia Dynasty - which was before the Zhou Dynasty. However, during the Zhou Dynasty, the Kingdom of Yue entered into the Huaxia Chinese sphere as they would pay tribute to the Zhou kings - which was recorded in the Bamboo Annals that in the 24th year reign of King Cheng of Zhou, the "kingdom of Yu Yue sent people to the Zhou court to visit". The theory that the Yue kingdom was ruled by Baiyue people - and not Huaxia Chinese (where Han Chinese comes from) - is stemmed from descriptions of the people of the Yue people that are similar to other Baiyue peoples.

I would also like to add that another example of a kingdom that has been part of the kingdoms of the Spring and Autumn Period were the "Ba" and "Shu" kingdoms in modern day Sichuan - they were also not states created by the Zhou kings under the 分封制 and were recorded as being barbaric and "man (蛮) like" in their ways

​@@bamboohistorypodcast5250 First you should know Chu is a Huaxia kingdom , there are never any doubt about that ,they expand far south but that dose not mean they are not Huaxia in origin. Wu are not sure , but they are thouht to be semi Huaxia

@@bamboohistorypodcast5250 I really doubut that your theory , . There have NOT been records that the Yue kingdom had existed even before the establishment of the Zhou dynasty. I don't konw where you get that . Yes they entered Huaxia Chinese sphere during Zhou , and hence been seen as Huaxia groups . And you are confused with the name , Baiyue and the kingdom Yue are totoally different people . there are shared traits but still different . like the difference between Filipino and Thai . And genetic test shows despite they all beong to the O1 groups ,but two were separated for more than 10000 years , which can hardly say they are the same group.

@@bamboohistorypodcast5250 Shu is in the Sichuan ,Ba is in the Chongqing ,those two are different groups too . Zhou /huaxia group have close tie with Shu but not ruled them , While not have close tie with Ba but ruled them .Shu is an independent kingdom back then ,while Ba is ruled by a Huaxia King .Shu is not considered Man , they have close tie with Zhou's royal family ，The name Man usually refer to the native of Chu kingdom , We don't exactly who they are . And it's more a contempt than refer to specific groups

Dayak themselves are decendants of Austronesian.

Indeed! apparently people from Fujian are said to be a mixture of earlier Bai Yue groups and Han Chinese that migrated from Northern and Central China. This is reflected in the Min dialects :)

are the Lisu people related to Bai Yue, or Minnan Hokkien ? @@bamboohistorypodcast5250

Vietnamese language is more closely related to Cambodian (Khmer) than to Thai though. Both Vietnamese and Khmer are part of Austro-Asiatic family. Yue was not a singular entity, it was made up of many diverse and distinct people groups hence the name Hundred Yue. Specifically in Fujian, Zhejiang it is more likely some Austronesian language was spoken. In Guangdong, Guangxi it seems Kra-Dai / Tai-Kadai languages are possible and in Vietnam AA languages probably native to Laos and north Vietnam.

Many Chinese culture architecture food garden music come from south China which was part of Vietnam in ancient time but Han Chinese were outnumber Vietnamese 20 times so easy to overtake part of Vietnam. Yes lot Vietnamese culture come from China but then who to say who copied whom not concrete evidences. Even Vietnam learn lot from China but must remember China had over 20 time more population so more invention more culture. Even Vietnamese culture n people from China dont make them inferior same go Canada and US are from European countries culture and people but Amerikkka is not inferior than Europe right? Just evolved more better later.

Han Chinese in central China had lost their countries already to Turk Mongolia Manchua and even Japan just Han Chinese are part of empire of Mongol and Manchua. Allies won Japan not China alone.

Most Vietnamese are very prideful of their country. Cant be said for Chinese.. i heard even chinese in china want to separate themselves from mainlanders. They start using terms like Shanghainese, Beijing people and hkers.. that tells a lot.

When the Ming Dynasty ruled China. They determine land ownership based on genealogy. Therefore, many people in southern China fake their genealogy, claiming that they are Han people who migrated from the north a long time ago. They are essentially the indigenous Yue people.

Baiyue =Chinese Han peoples（South China Fujian/Guangdong )/Vietnamese peoples

@@user-nv3bl2kw7l Baiyue is not Han. Han people is not AustroAsiatic, Han from the North. Viet people is AustroAsiatic which immigrants from the South, SouthWest. DNA show the difference no matter what your agenda is.

@@nhanNguyen-wo8fy he doesnt read current research about DNA Y O Haplogroup and MT DNA. He is just depend on wikipedia. He said dayak is taiwan but based on research dayak is closer to kinh and vietnamnese. Taiwan is closer to Philipine. Chinese has their own area of DNA. He is not updating his knowledge.

@@nhanNguyen-wo8fy and he said Austronesia is a race hahhahah 🤣🤣

That Chinese man even say Dayak is Malay which is completely wrong. Based on DNA research Malay DNA closer to Thai and Javanese. Taiwan Chinese close to Chinese. Taiwan Aborigin close to Philipine. Viet and Kinh in one area with Dayak of Borneo and he still say baiyue is Han. Cuz he hasnt read current research DNA and only depend on wikipedia knowledge. He hasnt read book about China and Ancient Yue written by Cambridge proffessor Erika Fox (who is Europe mixed Chinese) and never read complete research of Y DNA O Haplogroup and Mt DNA, so everywhere he says Baiyue is Han. And one more thing he says Austronesia is a race while Austronesia and Austrosiastic are groups of language not group of DNA. I am speechless about him. Just let him be. He doesnt understand English also.

The important point is to differentiate "Chinese" with "Han Chinese". The Han Chinese and the Yue are two different ethnic groups and cultures and yes, if that is the case, then the Yue are not ancestors of Han Chinese. However, the modern definition of what is "Chinese" encapsulates ethnic groups that live in China besides Han Chinese, such as Miao and Zhuang ethnic minorities, which are said to have been descended from Baiyue tribes. Added on the fact that later Han Chinese migrants to southern China during the Qin and Han Dynasties intermixed with native Baiyue groups meant that their descendants, who are "Chinese", had Yue or Baiyue blood. Hence based on this, it is fair to say that some Chinese people nowadays have Baiyue ancestry, which is why I argue is the reason behind many genetic similarities between southern Chinese and Vietnamese peoples!

@@bamboohistorypodcast5250 The "Han Chinese" tribe or ethnic group you refer to in your video seems to be referring to the original Huaxia tribes that originated from the central plains near the Yellow river in ancient China. However, today's "Han Chinese" has assimilated many other tribes and cultures just like the even broader "Chinese", the majority of the Chinese today are classified or consider themselves as Han Chinese, including the descendants of the Yue people from the Wu/Yue Kingdoms and the Baiyue tribes (this subgroup is estimated to be 190 million people). Therefore, I would argue that the original Yue people are also ancestors of today's "Han Chinese".

@@bamboohistorypodcast5250 You are confused with the names . First Yue was not a single group of peoples , but many different peoples . 2nd Yue is Han but not vietnamese , as both history records and genetic evidence can prove this , many of those tribes unique genetic are only found in Han chinese ,but not in vietnamese .you are confusing with the name Han and Huaxia , Huaxia tribe are core of the Han chinese ,but those two are not equal concepts ，Han was created after the Huaxia tirbes merged with the people in south China . 3rd Zhuang is one of baiyue tribes descendants but miao is not . Miao people are sincized baipu , Chinese never called them yue .Miao are desedants of Baipu in the southwest , the migrate to southeast form time to time . 4th ,Like i said yue are not the same people , not the same tribes , yue and yue are different . the yue kingdom in Shanghai are considered as huaxia kingdoms ,while others are not . 5th , Chinese never call vietnamese Yue people , Chinese call vietnamese people those live in the south of yue people , chinese call them annan instead of vietnam . and i don't know why vietnamese keeping insisit that they are yue people ?cause form linguistics and archaeological discoveries all show that Han chinese was correct .Vietnamese was not the yue groups but instead linked with Khmer, their Y chromosome proved it. check this commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:World_Map_of_Y-DNA_Haplogroups.png

@@ianchen8582 That is a good point! Yes prior to the Han dynasty the reference to Chinese as "Han" was non-existent and that Chinese people were a confederate of tribes in the Central China plains known as the Huaxia. I do mention in the episode that some Han Chinese people that live in south east China like Fujian would have more pronounced ethnic origins that can be traced to the Baiyue peoples - however the Han Chinese have undergone hundreds of years of mixing from other groups of people too and I believe that some Han Chinese subgroups, particular those in the north, would have less pronounced ethnic ties to the Baiyue

@@kellyma2992 1st, I do mention in my podcast that the Yue are a confederacy of different peoples - they have simply been bunched together by Han Chinese historians as "Yue" and "Baiyue" peoples due to a few cultural similarities. 2nd, I agree that originally the Han Chinese was from the Huaxia peoples, however a group of the Baiyue people, the Luoyue or Lac Viet, are said to have been ancestors of the Vietnamese. 3rd - just because the Miao do not fully descend from Baiyue peoples, doesn't mean they have a part of them which contains Baiyue origins. 4th - like I said in my other comment to you, not all kingdoms during the Spring and Autumn period where of Huaxia origin, and these included kingdoms of Wu, Yue, Ba and Shu kingdoms. 5th - the reference of Vietnam as "Annan" was much later in Chinese history and used during the Tang Dynasty and the Vietnamese peoples do share DNA with many people in southern China - and major reason why is because they do have shared ancestry. I would not be surprised that the Vietnamese people do share DNA with Khmer people due, given their geographical proximity and historical interactions, however the same can also be said of shared DNA with Chinese people too.

@@user-nv3bl2kw7l Han people conquered South China the land once was belong to Baiyue people that's it. Just like Vietnam conquered Champa the land was belong to Khmer people. Khmer is not Viet(kinh). Cambodian is Khmer they're not Viet.

@@user-nv3bl2kw7l people live in South China at that time was not Han. Just like people in midle of Vietnam was Khmer and they're still living there till this day. Viet people is not Khmer ancestor.

The word colonization you use here looks specious. Imagine that you guys learned this concept from france but use it onto the relationship with ancient China So did we colonize your country? I think the answer is equivalent to the one when people ask "did ancient Vietnam colonize Champa". If you think it stands that you've colonized champa, then i would agree with you that we colonized yours (*Champa 是越南人对占婆的称呼，直到清朝占婆还是一个柬埔寨人的国家，后来通过通婚、战争，占婆的土地逐渐并入越南，这也是中越方言和北越差异较大的原因）

@Jacob D. Yeah, you don't understand Vietnam. The US is not really the country with true diversity celebrations, Vietnam is. Why did Khmer (Champa ethnic) call themselves Vietnamese, fight for Vietnamese, and be well respected after we invaded Champa? What did the Han do while they here made Vietnamese don't call themselves Chinese after a thousand year? Yes, that's why the word "colonize" was true, and also, that's why Vietnam didn't belong to China after a thousand years under Han rules.

@@nhanNguyen-wo8fy OK, understand. Every society has their own beliefs (*I do respect Viet Nam and people there. But I can't accept that we'd ever colonized Vietnam. Because at least from what I was taught, the ancient China didn't treat Vietnam as badly as France

hum lae yuh!!!

Why don't we use hokkien while we are at it? Which descends from older Chinese still? 😂

又来百越代汉了, 滑稽程度类似于印度人认为印度英语才是正宗英语, 而英国英语是法语.

1953 lol

Coming from a pariah