Espresso Shots Compared: Fresh Ground vs. Pre-ground Coffee 

Hi Lauren, Thanks for taking the time to comment. I like your idea will try and work that in to a very long list of videos. Marc

Hi FWTB, Thanks for the comment!

Hi manxman, Thanks for the comment!

Thanks Ruben! Will do.

Hi S, You are welcome and thanks for the comment! Glad I was able to help you get your grind dialed in. Makes all the difference! Marc

You are welcome. Thanks for the comment!

Hi 0, You are welcome and thank you for taking the time to comment! Marc

Alex Hawkins thanks!

You are welcome. Thanks for watching and the comment!

Hi Daniel, Thanks for sharing your story of grinder evolution! Marc

Maybe a silly question, but what brews the best coffee? pour over, drip, moka pots, coffee machines…

That's mostly a matter of taste. Some would never give up their French press and others swear by pourover. We mostly brew pourover and sometimes I get the urge for stove top espresso and get the moka pot out. I've got my eyes on a Gaggia Classic Pro. Then we'll spend some time dialing in some shots.

@@danjv I always use the moka pot and I'm also thinking about getting the new Gaggia Classic. Christmas is around the corner. Thanks for your reply.

I was considering a cheaper machine and saw a video about depressurizing the $100 Delonghi. Marc steered me clear of that and stressed that the Classics full sized brew group is essential for quality espresso shots. There's really no other choice for the price.

Makes a HUGE difference!

Good question. When originally conceiving this video, one thought was to get some pre-ground espresso from the grocery and see how it did. Nixed that idea for this video as I really wanted to do an apples to apples comparison of the same coffee. But planning on doing the supermarket pre-ground in the future. Thanks for your comment and question!

Yes, that would be a good idea, too see how it goes, as for old been in the cupboard for ages pre-ground we know how it would turn out anyway. Even old beans to me smell like an old hot water bottle in other words like rubber.

Hi FI, You are welcome and thank you for taking the time to comment! Marc

Hey D, Glad you think so! Thanks a whole latte for the comment. Marc

Hi NG13, Grinding fresh is soooo much better! Marc

Hi Pedro, Thanks for your comment and video suggestion! That's definitely one we want to do.

Hi Simon, You're welcome! Thanks for the comment.

Hi GP, You are welcome and thank you for the comment. Grinding fresh (at the right grind size) is the one easy step to a better coffee! Marc

Thanks. Yes, fresh is best!

great video, WLL :) I send it to my friends who don't believe me when I say FRESH is indeed the only way to go :) Thank you. PS. I love what u do.. keep up the good work

Scotty d'Angelo I converted my neighbor from store bought Maxwell House to fresh, home roasted beans! To thank him for helping me with a computer issue, I roasted some beans for him. He dusted off his old blade grinder to use to try them. The following week I received a text from him showing me a picture of his new coffee bean roaster! A couple of months later I got another text with a pic of his new Baratza grinder! Lol!

helpfulnatural People just don't get it until they taste it!

Whole Latte Love Amazing, isn't it? :)

Hi GM, Don't do the blade grinder!!! Not usable for espresso. You might consider a hand grinder with a burr. Hario have some widely avaialble. Not my favorites - the burrs wobble a bit on most models but you can get by with one. For a little more money I do like the ROK manual grinder: www.wholelattelove.com/the-rok-coffee-grinder If those are not an option stick with the pre-ground and pressurized filter baskets.

Thanks for the likes!

Hi RL, Thanks for the comment sharing your process - hopefully it helps other in similar situation. Marc

Hi AB, Thanks for the comment and questions. In general, fresh is better. I always prefer to grind fresh right before brewing. Once coffee is ground those aromatics start to float away - The wonderful smell of ground coffee... it's flavor in the air that does not end up in the cup! Grind size plays a role in how fast a coffee degrades after grinding. For coarser methods like press you have more time. For espresso, with its much finer grind things go downhill fast. I wouldn't go more than a few minutes.

Hi S M, Thanks for the comment! Marc

You bet! Marc

Hi t, Thanks for the comment! Marc

Hi Hector, You are welcome and thanks for your comment!

Hi 2012, Thanks for the question. It's not something I've tested but my guess is little difference. If both were fresh from roast the main thing happening initially is C02 off-gassing. Don't think nitrogen flushing will change off-gassing. For longer term storage keeping in original nitrogen flushed bag is best IMO. Marc

Kshitij Mathur Hi KM, thanks for the kind comment and question! Speaking of roasted beans. Marc

@@Wholelattelovepage You were saying Marc??

Sorry if I was not clear. I mean pre-roasted beans. Beans roasted prior to grinding. Marc

To be perfectly clear, roasted and rested prior to grinding. Fresh roasted beans must be rested for 5-7 days prior to using to allow for degassing. I know you know that Marc, but just trying to be perfectly clear for @Kshitij Mathur or anyone else who comes across this thread.

Hi TCR, Thanks for the suggestion! That's something we will definitely do!!!

Hey j, thanks for the comment and question. Yes, grinding fresh would be best. Of course if grinding fresh might as well go with non-pressurized basket if machine is capable. Marc

Hey Ralph, Thanks for the comment and question. Maybe the Sabres will get there someday! I know a little about hockey. a few decades ago I directed broadcast games for the Rochester Americans. Still video direct in-house game presentation at the BCA for fun. The Maromas Orphea is one of my favorite (customers love it too) classic Italian style bean blends. I personally prefer it to Super Crema. I find it more balanced a bit more chocolate and less bitter. If you want to go next level check out Crema Wave. It's a modern take on the classic Italian style bean blends. It uses only 100% specialty grade beans - blends roasted in Italy generally do not. Even better? Crema Wave is roasted in WNY. Freshness is not super critical in the classic roasted in Italy blends but with Crema Wave micro-roasted every few weeks it's a heck of a lot fresher than coffees that come by ship from Europe and in the same price range. Check out Crema Wave customer reviews here: www.wholelattelove.com/products/whole-latte-love-crema-wave-whole-bean-espresso Learn more about Crema Wave in this video:ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Vvu2b4ejFQE.html Marc

@@Wholelattelovepage Marc thanks so much! Go Sabres/Amerks!

Hi DF, Thanks for the question. Crema when fresh depends to some extent on the coffee variety. Italian style bean blends (especially those with some Robusta beans in the mix) can produce good crema for many months - even a year or more after roasting so long as the coffee was properly stored. Good storage for those types are in the original bag, unopened away from heat. For specialty coffee like lighter roasted, single origin, high altitude pure Arabica you will tend to get more crema when fresher. FYI those types of coffees are generally not roasted dark. Hope that helps! Marc

Glad I could help! Marc

Hi AR, Glad you like and thank you for the comment.

Hi nana, Thanks for the question. According to every roaster I've asked beans need to rest for a few days after roasting before use.

Hi Z, I hear you! As mentioned in the video I did attempt to use the same 17.5g dose with the 2 day old grinds but it came close to choking the machine. What you would have seen with a 17.5 g dose would have been a very slow drip. The double using that coffee extracted at >45 seconds. My guess is the grounds dried out and tamped tighter reducing the flow with that dose. My only option was to reduce the dose to get a reasonable extraction time.

that makes sense, thanks for the quick reply and the informative videos.

zombietyree You are most welcome!

Too bad the Maromas is not available in Canada! No micro roasters up your way? Lavazza is very consistent and with you on the over roasted beans!!!

Hi, We do not recommend refrigerating coffee. It tends to pick up other flavors in the fridge - kind of like baking soda. There's a lot of debate on how to best store beans. For long term, there's some consensus among espresso geeks that freezing is best - assuming you start with a good coffee that's within a week or so of roast.

Hi Francisco, Thanks for your comment and question. As mentioned in the video, my favorite entry-level semi-auto "machine" is the Gaggia Classic. It's currently under $400. I put machine in quotes, because it's built so much better than the pressurized basket only entry-level "appliances". In my opinion the Classic is the best value single boiler machine out there. As a single boiler there are some limitations. You cannot brew and steam at the same time. Also the Classic comes with an autofrothing wand. These are not really capable of producing a superfine microfoam required for pouring latte art which requires manual frothing and user skill to pull off. What's nice about the Classic is it comes with both pressurized and standard baskets. So if you can't do a grinder to start you can use the pre-ground. Also, it's a full size and weight commercial 58mm portafilter that locks into a substantial group head for god thermal stability. A step up and more $$ is the Rancilio Silvia. It will not brew better than the Classic but does have a slightly larger boiler, manual steam wand and more steam power if frothing for multiple drinks. Gaggia Classic: www.wholelattelove.com/products/gaggia-classic-ss-brushed-stainless-steel-semi-automatic-espresso-machine Rancilio Silvia: www.wholelattelove.com/products/rancilio-silvia-m-espresso-machine

Wow, thanks so much! I will consider both for an upgrade in a near future.

Francisco Mendez Very welcome - always happy to help!

Francisco Mendez For a while I was in the same exact position as you. although it is not quite a Silvia, I decided to pick up a Breville barista express off Amazon for $550. It is a great choice, since it it has an integrated grinder equivalent in consistency to the Dose Control (although I wouldn't recommend it for multitasking.) Although it does not have a commercial sized portafilter, it has semi-commercial components in all other areas. At $100 less than the Silvia, I think this is a great steal. As I said before, it comes with a good grinder so that is not something you have to worry about. I used a classic before, but when you factor in a decent grinder, it comes out to $20 more, and I hate that steam want that looks like it belongs on a Fisher Price toy from the 80s. However, if you are on a tighter budget, the EC pro from Capresso is also a good choice. It has a weird portafilter configuration, with a double pressurized spouted portafilter and a single non pressurized bottomless portafilter. The bottomless portafilter cannot be found below $4500 stock on a machine, and it allows you to really dial in your grind, tamp, and technique. The one problem with it is that you can only make single shots, but it's still mind blowing at this price point. The machine also features a single boiler and traditional steam wand, but lacks the ability to make double non pressurized double shots, programmability like the Breville has, or any kind of preinfusion. But there is no competition at $250, 400-450 with a decent grinder (I recommend a baratza vario or any Breville grinder)

Hi OMC, Depends on what brew method you're grinding for and level of use. A good multi-purpose grinder for home/office is the Baratza Vario: www.wholelattelove.com/baratza-vario-grinder-w-metal-portaholder

Amirhosein Herandy It's because of, 1 freshness of the beans, meaning time from roasted and, 2 grind settings. Flavor is very subjective and even though i love my latte in the mornings, i find espresso crema not very tasteful by itself but only a good sign of freshness.

The Maromas Orphea is a coffee known for copious crema! Understand crema is not everything. I was once set a sample of some Mexican coffee. The shots it made were all crema top to bottom and it looked incredible - unfortunately, it tasted horrible! Some of the worst espresso I ever had the displeasure of tasting. What's nice about the Orphea is the easy crema production in combination with very good flavor for those that like Italian style blends.

I know but the crema really helps for creating latte art.

Amirhosein Herandy Yes it does!

Hi BS, There is no "Best Number" you need to dial in the grind as demonstrated in this video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-iwHdm5GtNHI.html

Hi ty, As mentioned at the end of the video the middle shot did not taste all that great compared to the shot from fresh ground on the left. We did not weigh the shots so the finished ratio is unknown. It depends on the coffee, but don't think too much crema is an indication that a shot will be bitter. Shot on left in the video has more crema than shot in middle and I can assure you it was not bitter at all. Some might associate Italian blends with lot's of crema with bitterness as some of those blends contain a healthy portion of Robusta beans which do produce crema and in some cases can be bitter. That was not the case with the Maromas Orphea coffee used for this video. It does have some Robusta in it, but it's a quality double washed single origin variety. Robusta coffee often get a bad wrap. In many cases it's deserved. But not in this blend.

Hi MVR, Good coffee does help. But pressurized baskets fake the crema to some extent. Squeezing the liquid thru the tiny restriction in a pressurized basket causes bubbles to form on the other side of the tiny hole when pressure is reduced. Those bubbles look similar to crema but are typically a bit larger.

@@Wholelattelovepage Of course yeah. B Sometimes, I get black bubbles in case of over-extraction . Turned out the grind was too fine. So I ended up tamping lighter and voila. The problem is that any other brand would cost too much for too little.

@@Wholelattelovepage Another problem is that a grinder would cost really high here. Hence, I'm forced to use pre-ground coffee.

Hi, Thanks for the question. a couple of problems with a blade grinder... very inconsistent coffee particle size. Some will be very small and over-extracted. Other chunky particles will be under-extracted. This combo will cause bitter and sour flavors in the same cup. On top of that blade grinders generate a lot of heat when grinding which causes release of aromatic compounds which will not make it into the cup. Marc

@@Wholelattelovepage I've seen some modifications that can be made in order to partially fix the problems (grind in small intervals so as not to rise temperature,use a strainer to separate the thicker particles and grind them again to desired size,use paper towel to get the very fine ones stick in there) . But my question is,will the result still be worse than buying pre-ground? Thanks!

Hi JK, Thanks for the question. ESE pods sacrifice quality for convenience. Fresh ground coffee makes far better espresso than pods.

Also if I do invest in a grinder. I've narrowed it down to 2. Smart grinder pro at £150 which is on sale or a eureka mignon specialita at £350. Does the specialita warrant over double the money. And once again it would be mainly for cappuccinos/ lattes etc. Any help appreciated 😀 Love your videos by the way

hey man I was in the same position. I wanted an espresso machine yet was told on Reddit that I had to invest double money just for a grinder! I said screw that, and just got the machine (Gaggia Classic) with the idea that I could add a grinder later. IMO the Gaggia Classic with preground espresso is plenty good, especially if you're making milk based drinks! Even the raw shots are nice and bold. I'm sure going with fresh ground will taste better, but honestly just using preground with the pressurized basket will get you drinking lattes just as good as anything from Starbucks. Also, I def give the Gaggia Classic a 10/10 review. Calling it "entry level" is somewhat insulting. That machine is a BEAST, and it comes with all 3 baskets (single shot "pod" basket, pressurized double shot basket, unpressurized double shot basket). The only thing you need to buy extra is a backflushing basket for cleaning (and of course the cleaning supplies). Check out the new Gaggia Classic Pro with the upgraded commercial steam wand!

Hi there, Congrats on your Oscar 2! To help you with grinder recommendation, it would help to have more information like: What is your grinder budget? Do you grind for espresso only? What type of beans to you prefer: medium, darker roast? Ever use oily beans? How much would you grind per day?

300$ maximum i will grind for espresso only and i will grind one ot two time a day and i prefer medium roast coffee and i don't intend to grind oilly beans

Xrx1982 With that level of use and medium roast coffee you would do well with the Breville Smart Grinder Pro at ~$200 www.wholelattelove.com/products/breville-bcg820bss-smart-grinder-pro

Whole Latte Love thanks for reply What is the best between breville smart pro and nouva simonelli grinta and rancillio rocky?

Xrx1982 Not familiar with the Grinta. Between the other two the SGP would be a better choice if you want a multi-purpose grinder - goes quickly to grinding for other brew methods. The Rocky has a more robust build so would probably last longer.

Hi AR, Most people like more crema and ground fresh the same bean will produce more vs pre-ground. Beyond the crema one just gets better/more flavor from whole beans ground fresh! Marc

@@Wholelattelovepage Marc, what's so different in weighing 17-18 grams as oppose to weighing more or less? Is it the flavor, stronger, more crema?

lol

Hi Steve, You are welcome! Can't find your reference to the split screen labels? Was it a comment on the video you linked - is so could not find it. Yes there is some Robusta in the Orphea. It's very common in the Italian style blends although we are seeing more and more 100% Aarabica blends coming out of Italy. Maromas says this about the Robusta in their Orphea: "...In a unique blend with fine Arabica, and the incredible qualities of a very special double washed Robusta from only one plantation." Robusta gets a deservedly bad rap sometimes but there are some good ones out there!

I'm wondering if the split-screen side-by-side clip at 0:44 might have been mislabeled with respect to the pressurized vs non-pressurized basket. I mention it because I saw the clip was reused from last week's video, and noticed that the shot labeled "Pressurized" had the very fine-textured crema and the "Non-Pressurized" shot had the larger-bubbled, coarser-textured crema - but this coarser texture was exactly what you had noted about the PRESSURIZED basket. A mix-up in the editing room?

Just ordered a 2lb bag of the Maromas Orphea and we'll see how it pulls compared to my usual Peet's!

Oh boy - you are correct sir!

Awesome, Let us know how it does!

Hi AF, Thanks for sharing your experience. Marc

Maybe buy a vacuum sealing container. I live in Japan and found it helps.

We love her too! She's taken on some other responsibilities but does appear in videos from time to time.

Hey CLC, Thanks for the comment! Marc

Hi Angela. I'd be happy to help and send a link. But, need to know more in order to give you good info. What type of machine are you grinding for? How much coffee will you grind each day?

Whole Latte Love haven't really thought about it. but definitely for home use. i make my coffee with pour over but i really like my coffee from fresh beans. i grind my beans before brewing. just got my handpresso and plan tp get a machine eventually. i have a small grinder but it can't give fine grounds for espresso. Any recommendation? i have my brew at least 3x a day .

Thanks for the additional info. So, sounds like you are looking for a good, home use, entry level grinder which can grind for both pour over and espresso. Based on that, I'd recommend the Breville Smart Grinder Pro. It switches quickly between grind sizes and is set up to grind into a portafilter, can accommodate a pour over cone or grind directly into an included container. Definitely goes fine enough for espresso. While not the "best" for espresso It's a versatile grinder and serves light home use well. The next step up in espresso grinding is more $$ and you lose the the ability to quickly change grind size for different brew methods. My only reservation would be if you will grind dark roasted beans with visible surface oils for espresso. If that's the case let me know and I can recommend something more suited to that task. Hope this helps. Let me know if you have more questions! Marc Here are links to video and website: Review Video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-siYJZlLScac.html Smart Grinder Pro: www.wholelattelove.com/breville-bcg820bss-smart-grinder-pro

Whole Latte Love thank you so much. really learning a lot from your videos.

You're welcome! Always here if you have more questions.

Hi M, Thanks for the question. A pressurized filter basket has one very small hole beneath the coffee bed. The restriction from the small hole is what causes pressure to build up. In a standard non-pressurized filter basket there are hundreds of small holes and it's the grind of the coffee which creates the pressure.

Well then we only have non-pressurized ones. I guess if someone wants it he/she can also get a pressurized imported but i have never heard of any. Edit: I just googled it and it was totally unknown to me. Maybe an American thing?

Stick with non-pressurized! They are capable of making much better espresso. Pressurized baskets are generally found on lower cost entry-level machines. With a pressurized basket grind size is not as critical (espresso not as good either) so you can get into espresso without a grinder and use pre-ground coffee or ESE Pods. Here's an example of an entry-level machine which uses pressurized filter baskets: www.wholelattelove.com/delonghi-pump-espresso-machine-ecp-3420-in-black Fairly certain Delonghi machines are available around the world - definitely in EU.

However, the single shot baskets are pressurized by design, right?

A standard single basket is not pressurized.

Hi LG, Thanks for the question. Beans were not 2 days from roast they were ground 2 days prior. I typically drink only espresso made from whole beans ground right before extraction which makes a far better cup than beans ground a few days ago. The Gaggia Classic in this video can use pre-ground coffee in the pressurized filter basket which comes with the machine or freshly ground coffee in the non-pressurized filter basket. Marc

Leonardo Rezende Alles because when yo grind the bean the oxidation process goes 100 times faster and all the flavors locked in that bean start to go away, grinded Coffe has a flavor expiration date of 2 hours, they are like humans we get older because oxidation happens

Hi Leonardo, Always best to have fresh beans. However, we find with Italian style blends and darker roasts in general it's not as critical as it is with lighter roasts. Beans used in this video were 2-3 months from roast date. I've used the same beans that were 4-5 months from roast and really no difference in flavor or crema production. That is not the case with lighter roast single origin beans - a topic we will explore in a future video.

Great video as usual, & we are really eager to know the maximum period that a roasted whole beans can last before losing its taste.

Hi Shareef. Thanks for your comment! In the next couple of weeks I'm going to try and do a video comparing the same beans at various ages. Will use a single origin medium roast as they seem to be more sensitive to aging. In the meantime, while fresher is generally better, we do find that darker Italian style blends tend to be less sensitive to aging when stored properly.

Thanks, & I appreciate your help.

Thanks for the comment and idea! Marc

Hi Sana, Thanks for the question. You will not get good results from a food processor or any grinder which uses blades. Blades hack coffee up into random size particles ranging from dust to chunks. Consistent particle size is key in espresso grinding. What you want is a burr grinder. Brewing thru a pressurized basket is a limitation as well.Marc

@@Wholelattelovepage thankyou for your reply . I think then i will choose a manual burr grinder. I didnt know about the pressurized and standard basket . Until now . My machine has pressurised baskets so i guess that was also not an excellent choice. From the preground coffee i am getting almost the same as instant coffee ☹️ .

Really makes a huge difference!

Whole Latte Love It really does.

Hi Robert, Every once in awhile YT gets flaky with the card links in upper right corner. I assure they are there. If it does not show up on its own you may need to tap screen (on smartphone etc) to get the icon or mouse over on desktop. Hope that helps! Marc

Thanks for the comment - fabulous advice!

Hi cubsfan, By how long do they last I assume you mean how long do they stay fresh? Well, that depends on what kind of a coffee drinker you are. From geek level espresso enthusiasts the answer you get is a few weeks at most from being roasted. At that level there's a preference for making espresso from beans that are within 10 days or so of being roasted. Understand that at the geek level I'm talking micro-roasted specialty beans. Often single origin and medium roast level. Those beans can have some very distinct flavors that will fade as the coffee ages. Question is, and it's hard to quantify, is just how much does the coffee change as it ages. Some would say a lot and others (average coffee drinker) might struggle to find a difference between a coffee roasted a couple weeks ago to the same coffee that's been on the shelf and properly stored for a few months. Moving on to beans that are not at the level of specialty coffee like bean blends roasted on a larger scale, there is some initial degradation following roasting. But it's not huge and these blends are put together knowing that they will most likely not be used withing the first couple of weeks after roasting. Properly stored in airtight containers away from heat and light these blends can go for many months with relatively little change. Hope that helps and thanks for the question. And, congrats on the series - my daughter lives a couple miles from Wrigley!

thanks for the info!! ya and that was one of the most intense world series yet!

You are welcome! Yes it was an intense series!!!

Fresh makes all the difference!

Hi d, Well, pre-ground is a valid (if compromised) way to get into espresso without a grinder. Grinding whole beans fresh will produce a much better espresso! Marc

@@Wholelattelovepage Happy New Year, Marc

Hi im, Fresh ground is the best! Marc

Hi LY, Thanks for the comment - I get your point. I had to use different basket - a pressurized one for the pre-ground. Marc

Sorry you are having problems loading the video. Have not heard of others having any problem.

Hi, Thanks for your comments. As mentioned in the video I tried numerous times with an equal 17.5g dose in middle shot. For whatever reason it always nearly choked the machine. Only option was to reduce the dose for that shot. Totally agree with you that crema can be irrelevant to taste. As a side, I was once sent a Mexican coffee that made the most incredible crema I've ever seen while having terrible flavor. Do think in this test visual quality of the crema is a valid way of appraising the effect of freshness/pre-grinding on the extractions. Also, think most every modern barista and geek level home espresso hobbyist would agree that grinding fresh makes a huge difference in finished espresso quality.

Frigidaire FD7189