Everything Wrong With Commander Precons In Modern Horizons 3 | MTG Discussion 

As a primarily EDH player, we don't want this. EDH is best when WOTC interferes less

Make no mistake, people aren't getting into Magic because of these products. They're getting into Magic because of the people who play it.

MH3 has EDH precons but not Modern precons?!?!?! What the fuck???? This was going to be my moment to finally try out modern!!

Modern Horizons is the reason why I stopped trying to get into modern, and just shifted to pioneer and pauper. Honestly, I am really happy with the pauper panel, and I feel like every major format (modern, pioneer, pauper, and maybe legacy) should get its own panel

wotc noticing edh was where the trouble started

I absolutely agree. I think they could easily make modern precons that are budget versions of popular decks. They had no problem making a Pioneer Izzet Phoenix deck with only two phoenixes so why not just do the same kind of thing? It doesn’t have to have a play set of shocks and fetches. All the decks would have to do is provide a playstyle that inspires players to keep playing and upgrade the deck. Also, power level isn’t an issue when making precons. People frequently complain about Commander precons being underpowered and that hasn’t stopped them from printing lower power decks anyway

Having Commander precons in Standard and Modern sets where the cards in the precons are not legal in Standard or Modern is absurd.

what's nice about commander is that you can spend $40 on a precon and play casually with friends but getting into modern is just an impossible thing no one will venture into a format that cost +$500 to play

Well said, as a mostly EDH player I want everyone in their formats to feel catered to and not shoved towards something they’re not into. Since I stopped playing yugioh I realized how good it is for Magic to have different formats for players to seek out, not be forced into

This is a problem of WotC's own making. It started back when they tried monetizing Standard hard by making the only playable cards in a set chase rares. So they pushed people out of Standard into Modern and Legacy, but then pushed the power of Standard sets and even made straight-to-Modern sets that forced Modern and Legacy players to buy product and effectively turned non-rotating formats into rotating ones. So the Modern and Legacy players said screw it and just played EDH. Now we're to a point where WotC is printing primarily into EDH to force people to buy new products

I can’t wait for them to preview commander only cards in a print to modern set. EDH is alright and all but holy hell did it ruin a ton of sets. Remember when it was just a pile of pet cards? Nowadays, it’s just a pile of commander only cards and top recommended from EDHREC.

Why don't they just make commander sets only commander legal. It would make so much sense.

It's a Commander world now, Standard, Modern, Limited, etc. are just living in it.

I think one thing to remember is that enfranchised players will play. Whatever the state of the meta is, they'll buy what they need and play that. Casuals are the ones that need encouragement not just to get them in the door but to keep them too - when I started, Standard was the focus format and neither commander or Modern were a thing. It was evident then that because the products, events and news were so focused there that it was losing casual interest. I can't tell you how many times I heard people say things along the lines of "why bother buying anything if It will be useless in a few months". They switched to Limited focus and that almost worked until people saw that those who could afford to buy-in more often were buying the training to stomp anyone new dipping their toes in. Now we have two focuses both getting attention and because one is eternal and the other has such a long rotation, neither will ever exist in a bubble separate from the other - the only way to make cards solely for one or the other would require them actually making them different games rather than formats of the same game. So yeah, we are going to get commander decks made of Modern product and we are going to see cards designed with commander in mind find homes in Modern decks. Its unavoidable and healthier than the alternative where each card would have to be bespoke designed to invalidate its existence to one side of the player base or the other.

I’m mostly an EDH player and yea, I feel commander works best if we just have to build up from cards that were meant for other formats with a few cards for the format like arcane signet. Also, I would love to play modern or pauper or other formats, it looks fun but I just don’t find it worth it. I tried making a relatively budget standard deck and you’d need to pay more for less cards unless you want to have fun (at my LGS most people uses Esper legends, Domain, etc. that uses sheoldred and other expensive cards)

Hmm why not modern stater decks? Could be a thing!

You almost touched on this, but I wanted to say it anyways. The demand for these products is no longer being driven by average consumers, that is, people buying boxes to open and use the cards they want, maybe sell the rest. There is now a much larger portion of the demand being driven by 3rd party retailers buying products to either hold onto in order to sell later after printing stops, or stripping the product and selling singles at high prices. With the secondary market being such a big part of MTG in general, there will always be mass demand for every product. Heck, there are even individual consumers who occasionally buy products to speculate on in order to sell later.

I agree with every word you said in this video... I do not play Commander and have been playing since 1999... I wish I could click my heels 3 times and go back to the absolute best days in this game. You got my sub

How could a 60 card deck possibly cost more than a 100 card deck to print. It doesn't cost WoTC anymore to print a fetch than a basic, secondary market prices. That wizards legally cannot acknowledge, don't suddenly make ink more expensive

I play literally every format and love that there is constantly new things to experience or try. I hate buying packs though the only way i get packs is through winning draft and modern events. But I like the fact that precons you know exactly what your getting amd they are relatively inexpensive compared to many other things in mtg.

As a modern player, we are in EDH hell

Honestly you hit the nail on the head, I was mad with universe beyond but it’s not the IP or the set itself, it’s the fact that bowmasters is destroying legacy and modern.

Absolutely agree, I also think it impacts current and future metas for multiple formats. There's a lot more diversity push for Midrange strategies in Modern, Pioneer, and Best of 3 Standard. These decks can stabilize a lot faster than 5 - 10 years ago. Meanwhile, it feels like top tier Aggro and Control strategies are in the decline and we've even had times when they were practically non-existent.

There's no physical on-ramp for any format other than Commander. Arena is too flawed of a platform to be the on-ramp for constructed 1v1. The profits first model will eventually crumble when there's no one left to sell to other than Commander players.

Preach!

So i have a question. I used to play legacy, from 2013 thru 2017 when top got banned from my favorite deck blue/white miracles. Then i moved to modern until hogaak winter and then i stopped playimg 75 card formats all together. I now only play edh and cedh tournaments. I consume tons of media for legacy, modern, and cedh. Am i a "casual"????

Hi EDH fanatic here I love this format and in paper its the best. I love how popular commander is and that there's always something for me That said this product does not need to exist and I don't want it too I don't think anyone else does

Heck yeah the decks are awesome, im excited. Already preordering Assasins Creed.

I agree with your frustrations I think we can see evidence of the long term effect of EDH on other formats in standard, if this continues to happen to modern you will have to accept it or find a new format.

It feels like there is too many releases and i can't keep up

I think the best way to go about it is just say that in eternal formats like moderna and legacy anything with the little universes beyond triangle isn't legal, that makes it so what the casual players want isn't affected the meta game of competitive players, and it still allows new players to get into the game with these cards

I primarily play cEDH, and the product fatigue is wearing on me heavily. I uses to play Standard pre pandemic and I wanted to try getting into Modern, but when the pandemic hit plans changed. By the time I got back into the game all I could find was commander playgroups and whilenits enjoyable I'd love the chance to buy into a 1v1 format again at a reasonable price point. Maybe then I could convince a couple friends to build Modern decks with me and we'd be able to play something fresh.

If new franchises keep getting added to the game then when does it stop being magic the Gathering and when does it become the card game about those franchises? Are we going to have more cards from universes beyond than normal cards at some point?

I play mostly commander and kinda like precons but I think commander is usually most fun when you find cards that just plain don't work in other formats and make them work or even good in commander. I mostly find all the mechanics that were made specifically for commander are just too much, be it venturing, the initiative, partner and so on.

Hear ye hear ye!!!

As a Commander player I would be way more interested in Modern precons than yet another set of Commande Precons. I'd love to play some 60 card magic and my local LGS is playing Modern every other Friday. I'd be interested, but between the cost of Modern decks it's just not accessible. A way to get people into formats other than Commander is to print decent, competetive decks at an affordable price point and completely disregard whatever the secondary market says so there's an easy entry point.

No idea why there are no Modern precons. I do think it's an admission from Mark that if they included the fetches, shocks, and bombs to be competitive that they would essentially crash the market. Which for us, isn't bad, but after Magic 30 I think it's clear they're absurdly in tune with Whales. I never actually knew Challenger decks existed until I heard about them on Prof's channel and that absolutely sounds like a product I'd want to buy.

Everything could be resolved if they just said: "these are commander only cards".

I've shifted away from EDH, and now my two dozen commander decks sit on the shelf. I've stopped buying product. Premium price points and the huge focus on commander have driven me away. Now I play only pauper and brew and build my decks for super cheap. I miss how I used to feel about MTG, but I'm happy sharing my new favourite format with my friends.

I strongly agree with you. I play in a LGS in a small town in Italy. We play Modern and Pauper on a weekly basis. We are struggling to get more than 8 players... the vast majority here is of casual players -> they play Commander at home. So my LGS will soon be forced to fire only Commander Events and drop other formats.

I used to be a competitive standard player then I left and now only play EDH. What underpins all of this is that EDH is the only non-rotating format where you can use your cards until the end of time, sans vintage bc that’s hell@ expensive, with no forced rotations where you loose $$$. That’s the reason I and so many others play it. It has nothing to do with the casuals ruining things for enfranchised players as you said. I get you’re annoyed but broad generalizations aren’t good argument.

Even as a mostly commander player, I'm not waiting on all the new decks and the other universes stuff!

As a Commander player, I have very publicly voiced my frustrations with how Commander is everything. I miss having delineations and lines between the different formats, how every now and again a standard release card has some kooky interaction with Commander stuff but now everything has been catered to this format and it bothers me a lot. I've seen entrenched Modern and Standard players slowly lose more and more of their brand of love for the game because they now have to suffer cards made specifically for our format in Standard releases and that's not fair. The other formats have suffered. Our wallets have suffered. Commander as a whole suffers because they are now pushing and pushing more and more frictionless Legendaries to get us to consume consume consume and we simply just can't keep up and it's gotten to the point where my playgroup started instituting some restrictions just to stop games from ending on turn 4. I love this game, I hate to see what it's becoming :(

Well said. By the way, price of a Modern deck is about 35-50% (Hardened scales - Rhinos) of my country's average monthly salary. Maybe it doesn't relate to your video as much, but try to get into Modern if you're still student. Point being, I feel like I'm literally not allowed to play, as a consequence of WotC decisions to create MH. Which forces me to build EDH decks and upgrade them over years. Which makes me engage with EDH products, making it a viscious cycle.

I was really hoping for intro modern decks. Just like GW has start collecting boxes for miniatures. That lure you into starting a new faction a small discount initially. I want to get into Modern 🤷

There is no counterpoint. Consumers are consuming so why wouldn’t they keep on selling? The community needs to stop gluttonously gobbling everything they force feed us

I don't play modern but the idea of a modern commander deck is really strange. Also what if one of the new cards is like super playable in modern (so awkward to get)? Or are they not legal cause they are commander cards? Then why include them in MH3?

The funny thing is that commander is the hardest format to play, try playing a control deck against 4 people.

Hey atleast wizards is acknowledging the secondary market more and more now, cant wait for them to get in trouble for it

If were being honest the commander precons exist because they sell, and commander is a much more appealing format for beginners. Now the goal is to bring players in through UB and commander at a reasonable price. Hope they get hooked, and then dip into cEDH and other competitive formats like Modern and Standard.

You’ve made a fair critique of WotC and essentially any TCG. I however suspect you will still buy into the set despite your dissatisfaction. The only solution to your woes is a true competitor to Magic, that captures what you love about your format. Hopefully one where all cards are priced equally, and affordably. Although they lacked the luster of Magic, Ascension and Keyforge were great attempts.

I 100% agree with most of the points you are making here. MH3 doesn't really need to have commander precons to be successful, but that ships sailed and we got them. The collectors edition is dumb seriously dumb like I get it for something like a UB release (40K comes to mind), but for a set like this it's unwise at best but it'll still sell. My biggest thing that I disagree with you is how you differentiate between enfranchised and casual players. Let's take me for example. I've been playing for 13 years now, since Mirrodin Besieged came out. My collection has cards in the thousands and value to match. I'm nowhere close to casual about this game, it's the thing I'm most passionate about outside of my fiancee. But I don't play anything close to competitive tournament magic. It's not my vibe. This set is not aimed for me, for the most part, and yet it's constructed as though it should be. MH1 was definitely not for me, but there was a lot of great cards for me in it and I loved that about it. Same with MH2. It's just that this? This is not exactly what I want in a product. I'd take another MH2 any day. Cards like fury are great for the more competitive players, and I think that they're not the cards for players like me and honestly we need more of that than we need 4 more commander precons this year.

I started playing Magic with the 60-card format, I bought like 4 precons, and then everybody just switched to Commander...

as a commander player im exhausted... you say "eating" im already way too full! And everyone around me is too...

Luv Modern. Luv me early days (for me 2018-19) of play. Luv me sideboarding tech for the great mush of Tron, Jund, Burn, UW control (and occasional Mill) that was around in the local meta. Luv the occasional new cards that came in from standard. Simple as. 😢I miss these days, fuck straight to Modern, hoping Pure Modern picks up. Yeah I was burned in Hogaak Winter cause I only owned one Leyline if the Void. I'm an Etron player: yes Karn Creater is a bit much and Chalice is cunty, but those were some great days.

People seem to think MaRo can make decisions about or even knows what goes into these decisions that are way above his pay grade.

They could have done to modern horizon 2 for modern. All they had to do was take a look at what are the tier 2 and tier 3 decks and build them to upgrade them. Instead of putting two they can put one. I think they would have said perfectly. I guarantee Big Daddy Hasbro wouldn't let him do it. Hey you could have made them in the middle to commanders and two precon for the modern game.

I love commander but this product mill and push its tiring to try to keep up and I don't have the money to keep up with other players out there at my lgs. I don't want to be forced to by precons and singles that just keep rising in price

MH3 should come out with some modern decks maybe, if keeping in line with the perspective is the idea (but don't know, it seems that they just want the money)

As someone who ONLY plays commander, seeing commander decks in MH3 I am furious. They do not belong there and I'm honestly just tired of how much stuff is being printed with commander in mind. It's hard to keep up, to afford it, and it's just getting worse. I wish we could go back to one commander deck cycle a year. Let modern have their fun.

I’m excited for the Eldrazi, but this wasn’t the place for these precons.

As a legacy player, I support commander products always haha

As a person who is starting to get fully into modern I think they could easily make decks for modern precons that people would be even up to 100-150$ for them, but they GOT to be worth it. Take hardened scales for example, put the 4 ravanger, 4 ballista, and 4 sagas, and only 1 ozolith but then you leave out the 3 cauldrons, chalices for sideboard, and the other ozolith. Make that deck cost 120$ I am willing to bet my life it would sell like wildfire. They are okay with putting more then 40$ of value in EDH but god forbid it's not a 1-1 transaction for challenge decks

Lmao this is like a hardcore tdm player being upset about heartbeat sensors

powercreep goes crazy 💀💀💀

I hate it, what I love most about commander is the "jank", Trying to make a lurris as a companion deck work for example, no permanents that cost more than 2 cmc. Or similar commander stuff. All these new commanders that just do their thing are why?

Do we really need more precons tho? 2 1/4 months into 2024 and we have 12 precons with 12 more confirmed by like August. It’s going to be a 30+precon sort of year. We really didn’t need more in a set that was meant to feature another format. Especially so soon after masters.

Hey Modern players, here are precons for a different format! Isn’t that cool…. Isn’t it…?

The market has spoken. Commander is where the money is, not to mention the overwhelming majority of the player base. Can't hate on WOTC for giving the people what they want!

I was a modern player. I completely stopped playing after MH1. As time goes on ive become even less interested in the format which is a shame considering i have 2 modern decks still. At this point changing their design methods and banning like 15 cards is the only way I'd come back to modern. But the list of cards I'd need banned i expect to only rise over time not fall. As for commander, when they started printing so much shit i just decided to stop paying for anything from WOTC. Now i proxie my commander decks with black and white print outs and if i decide i really like the deck i go buy proxies at .25$ a card.

Not Maro second handly admiting WOTC aknowledge the secondary market by saying priting modern precons would be too expensive

I'll buy MTG x Matrix 😂😂😂 aka Keanu Reeves

What frustrates me is that Wizards constantly harps on about how "not every product is for everyone" when people complain about the pricing of collector boosters and the like, but when it comes time to make a product that is meant for Modern players, they insist on making a Commander product to go with it? It distracts from the core purpose of this product, which was to allow new cards to enter the modern format. Hell, they could have made Modern Event decks that were nothing but cards from the new set alongside some core cards needed for those archetypes to work and you could have sold them as $50 entry points to modern without issue.

How does the power level of the cards affect how expensive the cardboard is to print and sell? What a load of crap. Also, the precons always being commander means that any new player immediately goes straight into the edh playerbase, creating a feedback loop of demand for that format's products.

Had there been a modern precon id have given it a try..

I'm mostly a commander player. You can't blame them for focusing on making commander players happy. Honestly, I think the real problem is that they gutted standard when they got rid of the pro tours. That, and the design mistakes that standard was making at the time, forced WOTC to take this direction. I don't think commander should be impacting Modern or Legacy as much as it is, but I think this can be traced back to when Wizards lost the plot with standard, and the game shifted as a result. For wizards to fix this, they need to make another format a focus. I really think they should be focusing on Pioneer. But that's long term thinking. Not sure they will do it

I don't mind the commander precons but to my knowledge they don't have any precons for modern.

“The power level needed to be viable in modern does not line up with the price point players are willing to pay for a pre-constructed deck.” They’re cardboard rectangles. It costs you no more to print one card on it than it does another. Printing a tier 2/3 modern deck for like $40-$60 makes the format more affordable to enter

when in doubt, just become a pauper player lol.

the commander decks would be less egregious if they had only modern legal cards and no commander exclusive designs, but they could have done modern challenger decks and that would have been so cool. At this point if they're selling decks for 150$ they could make modern decks and maybe make the format more accessible.

As a fan of commander I can tell you we also are tired of the product fatigue. used to be able to build a deck and enjoy it for a rather long time before chomping at the bit to see what a new set brought us...now that wizard's greedy eye is watching I just can't keep up. It is tiresome thinking you have a deck built only for another commander that is specifically designed to top last years commanders to come out and you need to build around it. look at commander content most videos have no commanders from 6 or 7 years ago show up. when it does happen it is because its a quirky one off episode. My brothers and sisters I am tired so very very tired.

I would honestly be content with a quick fix, that being that every format has a counterpart without a certain cardpool, that mostly being Modern Horizons (which would be the cherry on top of the irony cone as it is already) for Modern and Legacy and, especially for me, Universes Beyond in general. I hate UB beyond reason and I'm tired of justifying it: foreign IP's have no place in the game that I learned to love in late 2013. I'm by far noz the only one with that sentiment, at least give players like me a space to play the game without this that isn't Standard or Pioneer...

I lost the ability to play at my LGS. Everyone sold their modern decks for commander decks. I was left exiled from the game I played EVERY FNM, store champs, Comp REL, etc. as they no longer occur. I was removed from the "gathering" because of commander. Also, before anyone asks, no I have no interest in commander as a format and never will Taking opinions, I've been working on new structure for formats where the new commander cards (Not reprints) are legal in the formats they were printed in based on time frame. (IE current standard commander decks are legal in standard, pioneer, etc. True name and Opp Agent is legal in modern. Give us a chance to eat some of the crumbs the commander players get for our formats. Does that sound like something that would interest modern or pioneer players?

If the price of a Modern deck was closer to the price of a commander deck, you'd see more players play Modern

As someone who got really into competitive magic during Kaladesh block, I was honestly super excited for MH3, and hopeful Energy could be Modern competitive. After seeing the precons though, it made me sour on the set due to the direction WOTC wants to take the WHOLE game. Let format specific sets be for that format. Let's stop catering EVERY product to EDH.

I like commander. But I haven't played MtG in over 3 years now. They need to stop cross pollination with commander products. Go back to like 1 commander release a year. Saturating the hell out of it. More over they are confusing the shit out of things - are these modern horizons commander exclusive cards also modern legal? Just make standard. Let Modern be what modern was - cards from the standard pool after Ravnica or whatever it was originally. They just push power on everything they pay attention to. I stopped giving a damn about pauper as soon as they announced a committee for iot. Next set we get Tolarian Terror and other power creep shit at common. They have the Midas' touch of trash.

If they wanna do EDH Horizon, I say they just unban everything in Modern and let it run hilariously!

DIFFERENT COLOR FOR FOIL AND NON FOIL IS CRAZY

I left the modern format, standard, etc. Because it was far too expensive AND (at least in my community) was far too toxic. Comander was better to get into and there were kinder players. You could spend the same on a modern deck that you could on 2 or 3 commanders that would do well at a more competitive table.

Yes but even commander players are getting tired of all the cards as while way to much stuff. I also started playing some modern but the forced rotation is making me not want to keep playing modern.

Precon modern decks that are mass produced to crash the secondary market

How about the new sword they spoilered that reads like an 8th yr old wrote it It doesnt actually work if you understand englisb

i say let them eat cake

Monopoly the Gathering

Womp womp

Is says modern horizons Bc that’s how to justify selling the precons for double despite having the same card value as a traditional precons… oh… but put the good reprints into boosters so people will buy those too. I’m pretty sure that’s the answer.

Commander decks sell because they are worth the money and if you buy the set are better than spending the money on a box of boosters... well theyve proven that with ixlan and murders

Ive played magic for almost 2 decades, almost entirely in commander. I almost feel like I owe other communities an apology because of how narrow minded WOTC has become in their product lines and design spaces (almost entorely targeting commander audiences). I dont think Magic is dying, but its decisions like this that are starting to push veteran players out of the game- obvious cash grabs that dont support the community that has supported the game the longest. Premade modern decks wouldve been sick. Sorry the commander-ification of magic is ruining every set release. This sucks.

😂

I am mainly a commander player and never cared much for the competitive scene, but this still baffles me. Why are there commander products coming alongside modern ones? Just give modern the respect it deserves and acknowledge the existence of other formats. Commander used to be about grabbing splashy cards from normal sets and making them work, with some moderate official support, this is not how it was meant to go