Update: As of today, they have updated the rules to allow the Head Judge to make a ruling with respect to disconnected games. I.E. In the right context a head judge can make the decision to replay the game instead of going to a sudden death. This appears to be a clear response to what happened at the World Championship and is a welcome change.
It's still baffling that a game like League of Legends can "chronobreak" a game but a game as simple as Pokemon can't be bothered to implement a similar system.
@@powwowken2760it would be a pretty niche system. Most connected people can just choose to replay, and if random connect, a game restore feature is useless anyway
Forcing people to use rental Pokemon for official tournaments with customizable IVs/EVs/movesets/etc would not only making genning less essential, it would also remove the paywall of needing to buy multiple games to make a competitively viable team. ...So, don't expect TPC to do it.
Imagine proposing a "solution" to a company by telling them: heres a way for you to make less money. LMAO. Maybe think that through one more time. The fact is, regardless if Nintendo pursues to enforce these bans, players will still play the game both competitively and casually. People scaring Nintendo about players leaving the competetive scene if they dont "fix" their rules, are like parents trying to scare their children to call the police when they dont want to eat their veggies LMAO. Theyre not gonna lose players significant enough to warrant an allowance to hacking in pokemon, thats the truth. And telling them to purposefully lose money by giving everyone the mons they need instead of buying the games is honestly just plain rtarded ngl.
@user-kt2hl5mf1t Your comment comes off so harsh you might be a Gamefreak employee in disguise. Yes, they would lose money, but it's completely ridiculous to try and hold a competitive scene thats locked behind a pay wall. Forcing players to purchase other games to stand a chance is completely unreasonable, especially if not everyone has money to throw around. In a competitive scene, what should matter is skill, not who owns the most games. No wonder people gen, because not everyone has money to throw around for all the games that come out. Any competition that relies on you spending money to win is a disingenuous competition
@@user-kt2hl5mf1t dude explained why the company WOULDN'T make that change in 1 sentence and you made a whole paragraph agreeing with him while calling him stupid. No words.
There was also a controversy over the Unite World Championship were a player got disqualified and their team granted a 1 loss penalty because the player got excited after winning and knocked over a headset. The judges called it Bad Manners
Srsly? It's like we have to be robotic in nature! Ppl can't help if they get excited! It's not like he silent farted on stage clearing the room or anything
The biggest problem is that *for so long* it was essentially impossible to get correct IVs for hidden power, speed IVs, etc. until relatively recently. Having a literal one in a billion chance of getting the correct IV combo for, say, a Zapdos with HP ice and the correct speed/special attack is insane. The culture became so accepting of genning because of how bad it used to be and still is in niche cases. If we had a smogon-level team builder on cart this wouldn't have been an issue
Using RNG manipulation It was unironicaly easier to get those Pokemon. To this day I Stil use gen 4 game to catch Pokemon I can transfer. Last week I literally got a shiniy cresselia with 0 atk and spd in 10 minutes without using any cheating device.
And since then, Hidden Power was removed, accessibility of items to fix everything from nature to IVs has been made trivial if you play the game to completion, and you still have showdown to test teams prior to even starting to build it. TPC wants you to play the game, they have a financial incentive for people who want to be competitive to play the game. Considering what people had to go through back in earlier gens (keep in mind that the Japanese circuit is mostly legit, given their more stringent hack checks that can lead to legal prosecution), it feels disingenuous to complain about a time barrier that everyone is supposed to go through and used to be far, far worse. It also almost feels like there's a stigma against people who want VGC to be clean, with people throwing out jokes about how nobody thinks a VGC champ is really good at hatching eggs. Nobody ever looks at the Superbowl and thinks "Man, that quarterback must be super good at lifting weights." If VGC players want to completely ignore the grind and play the format, they can always just top showdown ladders and tourneys and giving that more exposure.
@@neolordie But if you look at the time needed to catch every team member It has actually gotten worse. The quality of Life improvements mostly regard items and training (Also in general the last gen has been a downgrade from the previous one)
Once again, it is crazy that Pokemon showdown is a better competitive format than the cartridge for high stakes events, given that it can recover from game disconnects/hacking, saves replays, keeps track of revealed information, etc
Its not really "crazy" at all, of course a simulator is easier to play, thats... how simulators work, they cut out the outside game and often cut down on the player ability needed The disconnects are a whole different infrastructure matter(the games are not peer to peer connections they're hosted entirely on the site, etc)
@@mistake1197theorymoning while breeding and understanding your mon is just as vaulted as just having access to every mon and set. You have to think about the mon, what you want to do with it and plan. “A game plan” per say lol. It’s earned skill. Smog players are only skilled due to over whelming games and being forced to see with out thinking about things. A breeder knows what to expect and how a mon works. Smog players know only because they have seen it over and over, and even then, they don’t know the real uncommon things to look out for because they have not seen it. A breeder knows a Pokémon inside and out. Smog players know a meta. That’s it. Same with genners
@@JohnHunterPlayerrbro it’s not that serious, Pokémons are just hard numbers, layered with RNG. You can pretend and play make believe all you want but it’s digital in the end. Pretending you are better than others because you went through the elementary grind to get those digital numbers is crazy.
In magic the gathering, many logistical rules are suspended for day 3. It's OK for someone to lose on time in round 1, but it would be traggic for that too happen when you've fought your way to the top 8 of a field of 300 pros.
the timeframe and format pokemon worlds operates on compared to most esports majors is insanely inefficient and outdated and this situation has finally exposed that, theres absolutely no excuse for the disconnect resulting in sudden death which completely changes the way the game is played and throws competitive integrity out the window, the tournament needs to be structured to allow time for full replays when things like this happen
@@carissapeacock i'm sorry i don't understand... i've been watching pro magic events for about the last 12 years, and if i recall correctly, the best of 5 format has been used in EVERY top 8 match in paper pro tours for like 8+ years? including the most recent one? since arena magic is way faster than paper magic, they moved to a double elimination format, which is even better than best of 5 single elimination. has it been a while since you watched a pro tour or am i missing something?
@@andy4an Having been to Pro Tour Barcelona in Person, they've moved back to paper MTG with a Top 8 and straight single elim bracket (Best of 5). Day 3 of the Pro Tour is literally just the Top 8 with no time limits (although you can be punished for slow play if you take the piss). One match (for quaterfinals and Semis) is broadcast totally live while the others play "alongside", with other gameplay from the other ongoing matches shown inbetween games (or after if the live match finishes quickly)
@@ShursGardenif I had a nickel for every controversy that happened at 2023 Worlds, I’d have 2 nickels. Which isn’t a lot, but it’s weird that it happened twice
The fact that its only contains VGC controversy whilst there are some controversial moments in Pokemon Unite scene as well... Not even gonna mention the decision to do next year Pokemon WCS in Hawaii when there is literally an environmental crisis happening there atm... Yeah man, this year WCS was fucked up.
I'm not a part of the Pokemon scene, but with all of this it seems silly to me that they haven't implemented a competitive/simulator mode that lets you "gen" Pokemon in-game for the purposes of local battles. If you want to beat genning, make doing it "legit" easier.
There's no way that happens. Every single step they have took to ease the pain, like mints and bottle caps, is rendered useless. It isn't in their interests to do that. On the other hand, if they actually did it, prepare to have a microtransaction hell system while they shoot down Showdown.
Better yet, ban everyone that gen pokemon and try to use it in competitive. if they are consistent enough with this not only the scene will be healthier, less cheaters, but also people will stop doing it.
@@kintsuki99 I genuinely cannot understand how you, or others, call genning cheating when there are NUMEROUS other commenters giving legitimate reasons on why they can't construct a competitively viable team to play in tourneys. Some of these people are adults, with 9-5's or more severe schedules. With a spouse, or kids, or other responsibilities that prevent them for sitting on a game grinding for 20-40 hours just to get a team that I hope, that you don't have to remake because of a meta shift, etc. By gatekeeping people like this by calling them "cheaters" you make them demoralized to try something they had genuine interest in, and therefore make the competitive pool shallow as more people give up. What does this solve? There are less competitors, which means more people who can't enjoy the scene and potentially get other friends to try it out, which would have increased the scene and overall exposure of the game that people like wolfey, freezai, alpha, jaiden, word of mouth and others done to show why this game is awesome. How is this healthy? None of these people are bringing in actual hacked mons with illegal moves, stat spreads, etc. it's a process of streamlining, that it seems like people have a small brain scope to understand the difference. And even if "You're jk, or making a point" It feels kinda fucked up. Some of these people legit wanted to try their hardest to compete at worlds. That viewpoint is childish and irresponsible
I feel like pokemon is running into problems everyone else solved 15 years ago. as a smogon guy who has been doing this since late gen 4 its hard to have any respect for vgc or tpc.
@@marcorodriguez8792 me too. I only play some formats on the battlespot beacuse I don't have the time to grind new teams every month (or the ability to gen them). I would like GF to finally put an in-game editor so I can just plug and play like any other compeititive videogame. I'm not against genning though because I know what's the competitive scene about, I've fervently followed it since 2017.
It's utterly contemptible that TPC are this incompetent during "official" tournaments. Highest grossing media franchise of all time but the games suck dick and their events are a mess, give me a break.
I have mad respect for the VGC players who play the game and put up with this absolute nonsense from TPC. If this happened to me, I'd tell the ref to go fuck themselves and walk out of the venue.
The "sudden death" mode hurts stall teams and benefits super aggro teams, regardless of your opinion on those strategies having a loss because the format changed mid tournament and your team may have an injust disadvantage is so infuriating.
Nintendo considers that a good thing, that's why literally every healing move got nerfed to 5 PP this gen. Nintendo *doesn't* *WANT* stall to be viable.
@@AztecCrocNintendo isn’t involved. Game Freak and the Pokémon company aren’t Nintendo. They publish with Nintendo and have a degree of influence in the sense that Pokémon is first party and they don’t need consent for say Pokémon in smash. This is an important distinction because sending letters or feedback to Nintendo is about as effective as asking Microsoft on the basis Steve? Is in smash.
@@AztecCroc What I don't understand is that if Nintendo doesn't want stall to be viable, why make pokemon like say Garganacl a thing? They don't want stall but they keep printing stall pokemon.
@@Skullhawk13 I think most people involved with pokemon know that. It's just that colloquially the whole group of GF, TPC and Nintendo is referred to as just Nintendo.
If players want an Urshifu legitimately they would have to 1. Own a copy of Sw/Sd with the DLC downloaded (or own one of those cartridges with the dlc predownloaded) 2. Play up to the point of the game where they have access to the isle of armor 3. Obtain Kubfu, raise its happiness, bring it to one tower and evolve it 4. Transfer it to Sc/Vt 5. Grind tera shards, vitamins, & bottle caps and if necessary a nature mint. And if you want say spectrier or glastrier on your team that’d take even more effort. This sounds like quite the barrier of entry to do things legit don’t you think?
Step 3 and 4 can be edited. ScVi have the scrolls needed to evolve urshifu into either strike form at Porto marinada. So as soon as you get kubfu, you can transfer it. Though I do agree not having them to get in ScVi themselves through a raid sucks.
And just think of all the other common archetypes! CressLuna? Buy PLA. Urshifu? Buy a SwSh copy, grind through the entire game, buy the DLC, complete it, get the Urshifu. I know, most of the mons are already in SV, but just think of all the time it'd take to get the Chi-Yu with minAttack just to tank like a Foul Play.
There was a controversy in Go because someone got a Pokemon DQ'd and had to play with 5 Pokemon, all because they registered their Pokemon as "Sableye" instead of "Sableye (purified)". The Pokemon was caught and powered up all through legitimate means in-game, but got DQ'd over a clerical error.
The thing about that one in particular is that’s like a competitive game worldwide issue. If you put something on your registration sheet and then bring something else that’s lines for a DQ, it sucks but at the end of the day that’s on the player to make sure their sheet is done correctly and has all the correct information. Gotta be specific about those things if there’s any sort of difference between them. (Keep in mind i know nothing about GO so idk if the purified mons get access to different moves/stats or not, if they don’t then that’s just dumb that that’s even a thing for GO.) Something similar happened in Yugioh I believe it was either last year or 2 years ago where a player had a card called “Dark Ruler No more” in their side deck, but on the card list they auto filled it in and it put “A Deal With Dark Ruler” instead. Under that circumstance he would have gotten I believe a game loss but he had re-sent his list later cause he caught the error, it just so happened the commentators didn’t have the updated card list so when it was played they were under the impression he had an illegal card in his list at that instance. He didn’t get a game loss though cause it was fixed before the tournament it just wasn’t for the list the commentators had access to.
@@HuskyTorchiks In Go, purified Pokemon are functionally the same as any other Pokemon caught in the wild, the difference being that they have access to the move Return, which is the standard moveset for Sableye in competitive. The Yu-Gi-Oh situation sounds like he accidentally registered an entirely different card (I know nothing about Yu-Gi-Oh so correct me if I'm wrong), and even got another chance after clearing up the mix up. This situation is more like, getting DQ'd if a tourney asked you what controller you use and you said a pro controller instead of a pro controller (wired).
@@VideoGamer110 i won't defend TCP too hard, but it does say in the rules that a player has to specify if a pokemon is purified if they're bringing one -- unfortunate, i wish tournaments were more lenient on the more mundane paperwork, but at the end of the day they did break the rules your analogy makes more sense if the tournament asks you to register what controller you're using, and in the rules when you register a controller it says you have to state if a controller is wired or wireless, and you just didn't fill it out tough but it is how it is
@@MajorFuzzelz because it wasn't a incorrectly reported out of malice or trying to cheat, it was an honest mistake. Human error happens. The matter could have been resolved by TPC by simply saying "Hey, you registered your Pokemon wrong, could you just write Purified?" Making him play with a massive disadvantage is far too big a punishment for an honest mistake. The tournament is to determine who the best player of Pokemon Go is, not to determine the best clerical operative. It's not even like he incorrectly reported his moveset either, it clearly started "Return" which is all the indication that an opposing player needs.
It's been confirmed at this point that the winner of the Masters Division Shohei Kimura altered/genned their Amoongus, changing their atk IV from 18 to 0. He's still the world champion. Worlds was honestly a shit show, but Shohei won because of how well he played, not because of how well he bred a mushroom. The genning debate happens every year and it's pointless. Everyone does it to save time, and nobody who is actually playing cares. But people still say it's cheating instead of blaming the billion dollar company for making VGC cost $200 to get into.
No matter how you get your team, be it genning or manually, winning worlds requires you playing against - and beating - some of the best players in the world in the head-to-head. No amount of time saved from genning will make that a trivial feat.
@@aedrarising2760 it doesnt matter whether he had encountered that situation or not. High level play requires you to min max everything to consider countering every possible situation.
@@gladyscjn5669 Define “requires.” I’ve seen someone rocking a 17 Attack Flutter Mane in an official tournament and do well. Because in competitive games don’t usually go for that long you also don’t need to PP Max every move, especially for those over 5 PP base. You definitely should min max stuff like Natures and EVs (and I’d also say 0 IVs in Speed for Trick Room is more important than 0 IVs in Attack for special attacking Pokémon), but you don’t have to be overkill.
@@aedrarising2760 Depending on the level of tournament, sure, can get away with for example not getting 0 Atk. HOWEVER, for something like Worlds, it should be the best of the best, meaning that competitors are looking for any edge they can get, even if it's a 0.1% difference. Completely min maxing for high level competitions is nowhere near overkill.
The sudden death thing is seriously messed up and I had no clue of its existence. Someone would say that what is within your control gets overwhelmingly outweighted by what is not
"Unfortunate" doesn't begin to describe my series, this game rewards blind luck and nothing else, I am beyond convinced at this point. After getting completely tooled by scheduling with my opponent changing times on me last minute and refusing to provide confirmation prior to the day of the match as to play times, losing this way somehow felt even worse than I had thought possible. My preparation was superior, my play was superior, and I lost, so I don't see a reason to continue engaging in an activity where what is within my control is overwhelmingly outweighed by what is not I am done with competitive Pokemon, and you won't get a fond farewell. This community is infected to its roots with a degenerative disease that grows stronger over time but stops short of killing its host. Tournaments used to have a competitive spirit at their heart, this has been transplanted and replaced with an artificial organ that feeds on vitriol and mockery from insecure little boys that heckle by the sidelines and tear each other to shreds over scraps of attention. The environment we fostered has trapped us all like this in a vicious cycle, and escaping it requires acceptance of the harshest reality we all scramble to explain away, that none of the countless straining efforts we put ourselves through here will ever amount to one single shining glimmer of significance. I would make this the end, but World Cup is still ongoing, and I would never leave so many great friends out to dry, so I'll suffer through a few more games for them. One last thing before I leave you all to react with disdain, ridicule, and self-righteous fervor, before you do everything in your power to minimize my words and thoughts, box them up and shove them to some cobwebbed corner of your memory, and hope they disappear forever as a stain on your finite time ground to dust. From this moment on, nothing you say matters to me. The foulest insults you hurl with intent to wound will calmly settle at the earth before my feet, and the venom you spit will bring all the pain of a warm summer breeze. You are less than anything you can conceive, while I carry on, brimming with joy distilled from detachment.
The fact that the only argument people can come up with against genning Pokémon with legal sets and stat spreads is "It's cheating! 😡" should tell you how stupid that rule is. It's almost like most people have lives outside of competitive Pokémon and don't want to spend hundreds if not thousands of hours grinding for a 0 Speed IV Ursaluna.
I mean for all we know GameFreak/The Pokemon Company could be recording total active hours of play so I can see a case where they'd want to inflate a couple hundred hours by forcing players to grind in-game. Granted that's basically a hilarious conspiracy theory with zero proof to back it up and for all I know it could just boil down to "archaic Japanese company running by archaic rules" which is probably far more plausible.
I feel like that’s a bit of an exaggeration for the 0 speed iv ursaluna but PCI really messed up this year allowing mons only available by transfer, it was so much better to make those mons legal when they were actually available in the generation instead of having to buy whole games for just single pokemon
Personally, my argument against Genning is that it requires external hardware/software. At some point in the process, the Gen'd Pokémon needs to exist in a rom and be transferred to a legit copy. That isn't possible without some form of emulation. I personally hacked my 3DS, so the option to Gen 1-7 pokemon is available to me, but I don't have a means of emulating Switch Games nor do I want to risk my switch. (I don't mind my 3ds since they shut down the shop.) I literally cannot Gen a generation 8 or above pokemon without engaging in a practice that carries risk for my hardware. And this is doubly so for players that aren't tech-savvy.
@@NotSpecialDudeNot true, I think the most popular way to gen is with a discord bot. You send a message with your phone, get a trade code for in-game, and trade with an NPC. No extra hardware that you wouldn't already have, no hacking your devices, no emulation (the bots legitimately control a Switch and trade to you) Edit: This is also free, there's basically no risk unless you're taking the mons to a tournament
Genning is odd since it basically is the same thing as a non-constructive proof (I.E Genning is faster than grinding for the 0 atk iv cresselia) but I’m really hoping the DLCs and those mochis allow specific IVs, and we get a full move tutor (who can teach ANY move a mon can learn in this gen)
The problem is the morons that got caught couldn't even be bothered to try and make the mons seem legit. They all got caught for their mons not having the right catch flags like Enamorus and Urshifus being caught in Scarlet/Violet instead of Arceus or Sword/Shield
@@KyhronLunaNot only that, but you can continue the tournament even if you had two hacked pokemon since you only get DQd after having less available mons than the minimal requirement (four).
The only reason it’s a problem is because actually training ur Pokémon legit takes an insane amount of time so to j bypass the training gives u more time to prep in other ways
@@orkodork2764 that shouldn't be a problem because yes, people who are prepping for a tournament shouldn't need to take that time grinding. you aren't gaining skill by mindlessly engaging with RNG, youre gaining it doing more relevant things. you aren't bypassing real training, youre bypassing farming numbers for digital pieces in the most complicated game of rock-paper-scissors.
@@orkodork2764As he says in the video, even if you make it as low as half an hour per team, people would still gen because it's only five minutes, and at that point you aren't getting more significant time to prepare. It's a matter of convinience, not accessibility.
In general, I do blame competitors for choosing to compete in a way that breaks the rules that they agreed to. That being said, genning is a pretty low-damage crime.
@@holyknightthatpwnswhat are they supposed to do? climb gamefreak corporate ladder all the way and become the guy in charge of tournaments just to change the rule?
@@windwaker0rulesi mean dexit will allways be the right decision in the long run due to how many pokemon get added with each gen since we already have over 1000 pokemon. And the number will just get bigger and bigger in the future
Honestly not allowing genning is what drives players away from competitive because it’s tedious to spend several hours making a team just to realize it’s bad in practice
@@metapowm4881Nor is a couple more switch games (that comp players surely own) an economic barrier given you have to spend thousands to actually travel around tournaments. There are some good arguments for genning, but there are so many bad ones it's astonishing.
@@metapowm4881To be both for and against your point, showdown is a whole different beast. A lot of them have tight knit groups that bounce ideas and teams back and forth. So showdown isn't the best example to go with since people cook all the time there and sometimes end up burning water when put into real practice. But in favor of for showdown, that also allows you damage calculations and Stat comparisons for EVERY event you can forsee. So you can give slight alterations.
@@metapowm4881because you can just bring those Pokemon into the game easily /s Just cuz you can train doesn't mean you can easily adapt your changes to the actual team
@@metapowm4881 Being forced to use an unlicensed third party software to effectively play the game is an issue IMO Last minute meta changes also make it so you have to completely rework a part of your team or some of your EVs several times shortly before the event I've probably seen a box full of battle-ready Gyarados at this point
My thoughts, as someone who admittedly quit at dexit, is that this is embarrassing to see. Tcpi is essentially saying 'your time doesn't matter' with one hand (genning is illegal, get to soft resetting and replaying all of legends arceus again) and saying 'our time matters so much, we didn't come up with an acceptable solution to a problem we shouldn't have' (ties resulting in sudden death).
The fact his defense was 'its the culture' and 'everyone does it' was bizarre. Pretty sure learning a football team dopes their new players to train them to match readiness wouldn't go down well. If you can't put in the effort or the grind you're a sub par player.
@@xedalpha1what does manually breeding/catching/raising a pokemon teach me about the competitive game? It's like telling the football players to go make their own football, socks and jerseys.
@@opgroundzero2.0 invalid comparison. Football players aren't expected to do that. They are expected to have trained their bodies themselves. Pretty sure a football manager would get in trouble if it turned out they'd used genetic engineering and cloning to artificially create a perfect team of players. Don't get me wrong. There are plenty of unofficial online Pokémon battle simulators that often have their own tournaments. Those are designed to operate like that and if that's how you like to play all power to you on those. I just think you shouldn't also be allowed in any official Nintendo tournament as playing the game in full as intended is meant to be part of the process including training your own Pokémon. There are places for both preferred play styles.
@@KinderDaCatI'm sure they're much more strict on randomizers, but when you consider that nintendo is the company that shuts down any non-intended way to play their games, I doubt they're very fond of normal nuzlockes either
@@ExalosiaThat is still a normal way of playing the game. They sponsored Wolfe while he was doings bunch of nuzlockes on the side. Don't alter their game and profit an they're fine.
yeah, and it's easy now. just hack in a bunch of ability capsules and shit, and do all of it ingame. the main barrier to getting top-tier mons ingame now is literally just pokedollars
They did the Ditto Spotlight Raid Event a few months ago, it's supposed to help you breed the Pokemon you want, especially that 0 Atk IV Ditto and that 0 Speed IV Ditto that you could encounter. The thing is I never encountered that 0 Speed IV Ditto in the only 3 days that the Event lasted so you weren't even guaranteed to be able to catch a Ditto that would really help you with breeding perfect competitive Pokemon. Also these Ditto can only help you with breedable Pokemon anyways, if you want a 0 Atk IV Cresselia there is no other "legit" solution than resetting over and over again until you get it so I understand why people would generate it instead.
honestly, that is bad enough, but another commenter brought up Enamorus from legends arceus. basicly requires you to beat the game every catch and due to the different iv system, you wont know its iv's till you can send it to home, which by then means if you didnt get it, you have to play the entire game again. legit about 4-5 hours per attempt to get a 0 speed iv trick room mon.
imo, giving that warning only 8 days before seems like a deliberate move, to not give people much time so as to make sure to catch them at it and send a message, there's all kinds of travel and stuff involved, so 8 days can go by quick
Imagine needing to get a new legendary Pokémon that you had genned previously in those 8 days, you might have to beat a whole game again. Get to the end game, and then catch it, check IVs, and if some aren’t as low as you’d want (like 0 atk, or 0 spd) you have to reset until you get it. That’s so ridiculous to spring it on people. Totally agree with ya.
The fact that genning is still by and large the most reasonable way to build teams even taking into account the advancements in shortening the grind nowadays (like IV training or nature changing or ability capsules) speaks VOLUMES about how inaccessible VGC is. I mean, when I was building stuff for VGC all the way back in S/M just to play in the Battle Tree, it took me dozens upon dozens of hours to breed for IVs and hidden abilities, and that's because I lucked into a 6IV shiny obviously hacked Ditto holding a Destiny Knot that essentially cut the grind in 80%. It's just ridiculous. Either let players gen on cart or just kill VGC outright.
I agree that proper team building just sucked prior to Gen 9 (maybe 8 idk never played), there will never be any point where doing it yourself is faster than genning. Bottle caps, mints, vitamins, and ability capsules can be bought, and tera raids take five minutes at most for a slow one and give out xp candies, ability patches, selling items, and items that the stores also sell. Excluding Home transfers and 0 IV scenarios, its not hard to get a competitive team going. Sure, it takes time, but its not nigh impossible like in older gens.
@@GamingEelektrossexcept for the tera type that exists now… so now you also need 50 tera shards every time you want to change a tera type, when you could just gen a mon that also has the Tera type you want instead. idk about you, but grinding hours upon hours upon hours for tera shards to change those types sounds like a major slog, and extremely unfun. that’s another reason for genning in SV
@@GamingEelektross It doesn't need to be *faster than genning,* just not insanely time consuming. If it took like 2 hours to build a team in cart and the tasks were varied for the different items, it would still be faster to gen, but nowhere near as frustrating as it currently is and far more accessible. Genning will always be faster, that's true, but at some point doing it legit could be just feasible enough that the average player would consider it as opposed to just hit up the gen machine
In my opinion, genning is fine, as long as the mon genned is something people are able to obtain legitimally. If you generate a Shadow Tag Chandelure in Gen 5, we have a problem but genning a Ursaluna, just to get a IV combination, is perfectly fine. Also, genning should not be use to profit. You shouldn't gennerate a mon and then start selling it.
Nobody profits from genning. The tools are free and easy to use, so in reality NOT genning mons would be used for profit. Rich players would be able to pay people to grind for legit mons, giving them an advantage
@@selfloathinggameing I mean, people sell pokemon with specific statlines. If those people gen those pokemon to sell em, that's definitely using genning for profit.
Unless it is the dish washing championships. Which I’d argue these cartridge formats are like. Part of the competitive aspect is overcoming the logistical challenges of obtaining the pokemon and testing them. If you don’t want the hassle of this, there are other tournaments (showdown) that you can play instead.
@@oatmongen4263Uh, no? The competitive aspect is literally just a pokemon battle. For your example to track, that dishwashing competition would have to require you to make your own dishes. Doable, but ultimately irrelevant for what the competition is about. Now if there was a competition about actually RAISING the pokemon perfectly, I'd agree
@@oatmongen4263 No, it's a battle tournament. It is about perfectly using pokemon, not raising them otherwise you would have to capture and raise them as part of the tournament, not just battle
@@scmontgomery Capturing and raising them is part of the tournament. There are different pokemon tournaments where you don't have to obtain the pokemon by playing the game.
I think the genning thing is real dumb. Imagine if something existed for fighting game tournaments where you had to train up a fighter to use them. That sounds real dumb, right? If the company has a problem with it, they should make a 'tournament mode' that's only used for official tournaments that lets you create a team..
A better comparison is probably tcgs. As team aps puts it, it's like using proxies in officially sanctioned tournaments. How does the comparison look now?
@@duelme1234 I mean I personally wouldn't care, but I understand why it'd be a bad thing. There are, however, a number of substantial differences. Cards don't take time to make viable, they take money and/or luck to acquire. And they're a physical object with a real world value that exists in financial ecosystem of the game. The company wants you to buy cards because that's how they make money. Pokemon (the videogames at least) start and end their transactions with the game purchase. And DLC of course. I would be more inclined to make the card game comparison if pokemon (the creatures in the games) were bought with microtransactions, but they aren't. The single, give or take, purchase of a pokemon game allows you to acquire every, give or take, pokemon in the data. Having to do the training grind to make a competitive team exists solely as a barrier to entry, which doesn't happen in any other kind of videogame tournament I can think of. So, I disagree that tcgs are a better comparison. I think it sounds real silly, like having to level up a fighting game character for a tournament. But like I said, if the company has a problem with it, they could easily create a tournament mode that allows you to use temporary pokes for tournament purposes.
@@duelme1234also cards are physical objects that can be distinguished. To make the comparison valid, pokemon data would have to be an NFT or something.
@@duelme1234 Dead TCGs and older formats allow proxies to alleviate the accessibility and paywall problem which are the same issues Pokemon is facing Most TCG also have online tournaments
Imagine having to play 50 hours of Street Fighter just to unlock a character. Imagine finding out that a week before EVO, your main gets hit with the nerf hammer. It is completely asinine to expect people to spend time breeding, leveling, and statting when such time is much better used on practicing.
If you take 50 hours to build a team you suck at team building. Just cause it’s a skill you lack doesn’t mean you can conveniently ignore rules you don’t like. Why spend time reading the material when you can study the answer sheet you stole right?
@@Skullhawk13 You do realize there are generations other than the current one, right? Ignoring that, my point is not that it takes 50 hours to make a team; my point is that PEOPLE HAVE LIVES. Not everyone is a basement dwelling NEET who can sit around all day RNG manipulating perfect IVS because you still can't bottlecap 0 IVs. Expecting people to spend any amount of time grinding out a team before you can even practice with it is asinine. im a blisy did a video where he made Freezai's team. It took him about 18 hours which, even assuming someone has 2 hours a day (which is generous for some people), it still over a week to make a team. It also costed him about half a grand to be able to access all the needed Pokemon. Are you seriously going to tell me it's "cheating" to use a service that is available to everyone but totally fair when someone with more money to burn is able to straight P2W his way into a "competitive"? Because that's what current Pokemon currently is; whoever is able to afford more games and more DLC has more access to more Pokemon. Now go be an idiot somewhere else.
you actual idiot. when did he say it takes 50 hours to team build? it takes 50 hours to catch / breed / manip an entire team + other pokemon builds you considered but decided against, way to comically miss the point and prove that anti-genners are paint huffers@@Skullhawk13
@@Skullhawk13I a blisey built one of the most used team in VGC this year using older games and RNG manipulation it took him almost 40 hours to build a team so no it's not a "skill issue" I recommend learning a little about team building before commenting things like this
„Im a blisy“ has some good challenges where he recreates world champions teams from the past using legitimate means - it provides a good point of view why genning is absolutely necessary for anyone who isn’t playing for fun
Yeah, sudden death should only be for day one. And I really like the idea of a different system for competitive pokemon where we can tune everything, maybe a separate game where you can’t transfer anything in or out but it has everything. Or maybe we make it like powerlifting and have natty and enhanced competitions! 😂
Historically I've been opposed to genning because it really did feels like cheating. However, as a person who has legitimately ground out countless teams I'm just tired. I haven't done a single competitive thing for any of S/V because the burnout is just that strong. It feels so bad that i sometimes just sit and look at my 12ish constantly open vgc resources (including Showdown with ~200 Sw/Sh teams) and wonder why I can't get back into it. Honestly this might have convinced me that I should have been genning since I started playing vgc in X/Y.
ultimately, I think the thing most harmful about the grind is how it gatekeeps potentially great players behind who can spend an arbitrary amount of hours wrangling with rng. even in a world where everyone does everything exactly by the books, wouldnt it just be better for competitive pokemon if we all spent the hours doing mindless repetitive grinding on actually learning and practicing and trying new things? when building a team isn't a days long ordeal, you get more dynamic, creative play from people who have the space to experiment. while I think its fine for pokemon to want to retain Some aspect of having to "raise" your team, theres ways to do that without encouraging tedium over actual practice and pvp would benefit a lot from that balance vs all the infighting caused by the barriers grinding and rng present to playing "ethically"
@@lupeylycan I wholly agree with this now - especially as someone who adores, and aspires to build teams as innovative and creative as players like Ryota Otsubo. The grind personally killed my desire to play and you're right that it hurts the ability to test new ideas in game.
Your case is exactly why genning is bad tho. You worked hard at every aspect of the game, and some cheating punk dared to say he had the same right to be there because training your Pokémon isn’t what they like. Where do you draw the line? If we condone cheating to save time then wouldn’t it also be quite a time saver to rig matches so you don’t have to bother with regionals? After all if I only think worlds battling matters that’s ok? Somehow that’s not ok but skipping prep work is? Suffering burn out in sports isn’t a sign the sport is bad, It’s just that life is about variety, and a sign to expand your horizons more.
@@Skullhawk13RNG is not work, it’s wasted time. Every minute you spend creating a team is time you just threw in the trash. You don’t improve at the game while grinding. You don’t develop new strategies while grinding. You’re just waiting. The “bastard that cheated” didn’t cheat, he just didn’t waste his freaking time and money. Not allowing genning does’t help anyone besides Gamefreak’s wallet and it’s time players started seeing that.
If you have a problem with genning, you should also have a problem with the TCG players buying singles instead of buying booster boxes until you get the cards you need. Obtaining the cards/mons is secondary to what you do with them. As Mewtwo says in the first movie: "I see now that the circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant. It is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."
@@nicoataiza7850No it isn't, if people played with proxies they'd lose money. With genning they don't get financially affected at all. Not that proxies shouldn't be fine too but at least banning those is more reasonable.
@scoutbane1651 GF loses money when meta centralizing pokemon come from games outside SV and are DLC exclusive - see Ursaluna, Urshifu, ... etc. If you don't gen then what are the proper legitimate ways to get it? By buying the other games. People also forget that some pokemon are behind dlc paywalls now
I think the biggest thing genning haters will overlook is how many times you have to change your team when building it. When genning, making changes is simple and doable within minutes. Without genning, you might have to spend hours just to change a tera type, relearn moves or get specific IVs
Except that’s just how it is in the non English world. Emulation is pretty much illegal in Japan, And genning is taboo. This isn’t an American tournament. It’s just insane that you all a knowlege how much of an unfair advantage genning is in the SAME BREATH you say it’s not cheating, even if you lack the self-awareness to realize this.
@@Skullhawk13 its not an advantage you dolt. Whether a mon is genned or "legit" has no impact on matches all the way up in Worlds level play. If genning was genuinely a way to make winning more likely then 100% of competitors would use it. Instead, the only reason people do it is for convenience. And your cultures argument is braindead. Freezai is a non US channel, and the competitive pokemon community is massive worldwide. And literally EVERY corner of the community agrees genning is not cheating and should be legal. Filthy casuals like you dont know shit about competitive mons, so shut the fuck up and leave a community you know nothing about alone
There's basically no successful competitive player who is a genning hater for a reason. Genning haters are usually: - salty former competitive players who couldn't manage to progress through tournaments and blame it on the "cheating" - casual players who had never played the game competitively and don't know what they are talking about
Because they don't know how much of a timesink getting it legit actually is. And then there's V*rlisify, who doesn't know a single fucking thing, and gets off on being Holier than Thou
@@borby4584Ummm I play competative and I'm against it. Cheating is cheating. If you want to play exactly what you want, grab pokemon showdown, if you want to play a tournament run by a company, you adhere to that companies rules. It's not hard. You can't just go smoke pot in a country where it's illegal because it's legal somewhere else. If you play in the tournament. Follow the rules. It's that simple.
@@LucasFleming-lq2ry But those rules are stupid, arbitrary, and there's literally no way to consistently enforce them. The only thing genning provides in a secure, competitive setting is increased accessibility.
@@LucasFleming-lq2ry yes cheating is cheating, but a rulebreak isn't the same thing as a cheat obviously. For example the rules also forbid the wearing of political symbols, but if someone wears a political symbol while battling, does that mean they cheated?
13:55 technically because this is VGC and all Pokémon levels are reduced to 50, if you want a Pokémon’s star to have the lowest individual value (iv) possible (ie. Speed for Trick Room Teams) you only need a Pokémon’s stat to have an iv of 0 or 1, or for base stat ending with 5: 0,1,2 or 3 , reducing odds to get a with a specific stat iv from 1/32 to either 1/16 or 1/8.
Its also worth mentioning that the time sink in training a team legit is time you are losing that you could be testing out a team theory, and that if everyone else is going to generate anyways you risk having the meta evolve as you are tediously building your team and you just lost potentially several hours to get a significantly weaker team. The people who think genning is wrong are exclusively people who do not play or know/care about competitive.
I don't even know how to train pokemon in a timely manner anymore. I miss the minigames from Gen 6. That, and the candy in the current game is annoying to get unless you solo every raid, which sucks imo.
That’s definitely true. It seems like whenever I’ve built a team it’s outdated by the time I get to use it. Especially in SMOGON formats. Legit players simply can’t keep up with the meta and rapidly changing formats. Hacking has also ruined the online trade economy & it’s always fun to face off against a team of obviously hacked shiny legendaries.
And then we all know that the first team you build is not going to be perfect. For instance with Ray Rizzo’s 2011 team… perfect RNG and seeds make the grind take around 40 hours. Ok… team needs to change X, Y and Z. Then its another 20 hours. Oh, this Legendary needs EV changes, either grind a new one or get the berries needed somehow to reset EVs. I used X TM on Y pokemon that is now obsolete for my strat? Time for Battle Tower grind or reset again for the only free copy. It is insane how much of a grind it was with perfect RNG. What would it take for a normal person?
Even if nobody genned anything, the time you spent rolling the dice still leaves you at a disadvantage compared to someone who got lucky enough to get their pokemon in a timely manner. There will always be inequalities when it's left to RNG, and genning being commonplace is simply the community collectively saying "let's not and say we did, and may the best trainer win."
I played at some VGC tournaments during gen 7 and creating teams was a big issue for me. There were multiple tournaments where I was still grinding EVs while travelling to the tournament and sometimes I couldn't finish my team in time. I also used a team without tapus at the only regional I went to because I would've had to replay the entire game to get them and since I only had 1 copy I would lose all my progress in the game which would also be many tens of hours in other progress I had on the cartridge and require pokemon bank so I wouldn't lose the pokemon I already had. I also once used a Kartana I got from the gts (or whatever it was called in gen 7) which could've been genned without me knowing (I had to use bottle caps on it so I think it was fine). The pokemon companies are also very incompetent and out of touch. The way they handle tournaments is infuriating. I also tried to become a TO but due to life I didn't get around to organising enough events in a given time and got banned from organising for half a year or something like that and didn’t get back into it. The players were great and so were the people who were organising my local events. I had fun in spite of the higher ups who decide how terrible everything should be done and the terrible games, but in the end I quit due to all the frustrating and time consuming things that surround VGC. Edit: Many of the pokemon I got were also imperfect. Special attackers never had 0 attack IVs which makes them take more damage from foul play and confusion. I also never even considered trick room due to having to get 0 ivs in speed and sometimes a pokemon wants a very specific speed IV like 13 to outspeed some pokemon in trick room while outspeeding another pokemon outside of trick room and you can never know if you get that while hatching an egg or catching a pokemon without some external tool or grinding it up to a high level.
In this scenario, youre just grounded and mom says you cant use the dishwasher. Just think of the grounding as the already set rules and regulations, though admittedly some of the soap is dishwasher only (Home transfers and 0 IV) because mom forgot to buy the right hand soap.
One of the reasons for genning is the tedious grind of resetting for legendaries. I may be burning food instead of cooking here but what if Pokemon banned legendaries from competitive? No more resetting for perfect IVs since you can just breed the mons instead
@@SilvaShadow1990Even with legendaries banned, people will still run the same 4 Pokemon. That's not an issue with legendaries, that's just how Metas develope. Look at just any competetive game, only small fraction of the roster is used competetively in every single game If legendaries are gone, then 4 regular pokemon dominate. Nothing really will change
BUt to start still take some a lot of time, so some people will gen. Also, the one guy who says legendaries are too centralizing doesn’t really understand Pokémon competitive. If there are no legendaries, other Pokémon are now the best ones for whatever play style is being used and are are now the one so that everyone’s uses instead. Look at singles OU, which isn’t exactly the same as VGC, but you can see exactly how the people who play a lot vote in the suspect tests for banning or unbanning things. Almost no one thinks great tusk is banworthy right now, even though about half of teams use it.
@@randomprotag9329 fr tho shoutout the the devs on showdown, for all its issues they def made a hella good site and 95% of the complaints towards it are to the actual series not the site.
@@randomprotag9329 I seem to recall the game actually having a game record feature in what... gen 4, gen 5? The DS games had the capability of recovering games over a decade ago. It's no secret that GameFreak is run by incompetent complacent idiots at this point.
imablisey does a reallyyyy good video series showing how long it takes to make competitive teams, for example Ray Rizzos 2011 (or whatever year idc really, not really a major historical event, its pokemon) world champ team and each one takes him at least 20+ straight hours of grinding, soft reseting and RNG manipulation which most people cant even do. I got a job, I got friends, I got family, I got other hobbies and I think 99.9% of people who play pokemon, including top competitive players, also have those things. Aint nobody got time to do all that. No idea why genning is banned. To even compete in VGC you gotta have the current generation console and most recent game anyways, not like its cutting into their profits. Idk this is why I always hated people like Versilify "calling out cheaters". Not everyone wants to spend a majority of their day grinding in a literal childrens game. Calling it cheating is just kinda sad and pathetic tbh. I love pokemon, its one of the few games I play and I play some sorta gen 1-7 game (dont own a switch) or get on showdown at least once a week for most of my adult life Would love to get into VGC but saving up money for a switch isnt the issue. Its the amount of time you have to put into it that has nothing to do with learning the game. Its just repetitive, mundane, grinding. For a childrens game. I mean at least with yugioh you could just buy a deck and get going. It was expensive but I had a decent, meta relevant deck. Imagine if you couldnt buy cards and had to rely on pulling what you need out the pack everytime. If you wanna roleplay being a pokemon trainer in the pokemon world where you catch, raise and bond with your pokemon play single player. Thats what its there for.
The only issue I had with the genning bans was that they issued the warning, and then instead of providing some avenue for players to check Pokémon that they got through trades and had no means to verify to the standards of the tournament, since no method up to the standard used is available to the players ingame, they just gave an entirely unhelpful "dont use traded Pokémon" while running a regulation where several of the best Pokémon aren't natively available in the game being used for the competition. Like, I hadn't known that the warning was that far in advance and that just makes the handling even more bullshit than I thought-the beefed up hack check was a planned move, not a spur of the moment, day of decision as I'd thought due to the lack of context from Twitter, and they couldn't be bothered to ensure players had the means to ensure their traded Pokémon were up to snuff? What a fucking joke. Editing to add: I forgot to mention my MAJOR negative sticking point for this format: Allowing Enamorus was a _stupid_ idea. It's a hard trick Room mon, currently exclusive to Legends Arceus, a game you can't check IVs in due to the heavily altered way that stats work. It's ALSO a special attacker, so you have TWO minimum IVs to shoot for. But since you can't check the IVs in Legends Arceus, you can't traditionally reset for them. Every additional attempt you want to make for it's IVs is going to require a _full playthrough of Legends Arceus_ up to _right before the final postgame story superboss,_ as Enamorus is basically the last legendary you catch before that event. And since it's a legendary Pokémon, getting a 0IV in one stat isn't a regular 1/32 roll. You also need that stat to dodge the effective coinflip of ending up as one of three stats with a guaranteed 31 IV, rendering the cumulative probability 1/64. And you need this on TWO STATS, so you can square that for...1 in 4086, aka base shiny odds from Gen 6 onwards. So it's one of the best TR Pokémon in the game, but getting an idealized version of it amounts to a full odds shiny hunt where every reset involves a full playthrough of an extremely involved game. This one in particular I applaud people for having the respect for their time necessary to just gen it instead.
@@HL-kt3ib right, the hyper training that reduces its atk to 0 for confusion self damage and speed to 0 for trick room, that mechanic that exists in gamefreak's Pokémon Scarlet and Pokémon Violet for the Nintendo Switch
The more accurate comparison would be in say soccer or the Olympics 'so what if they doped their new players during training? Everyone does it. They're just getting them ready to play faster so it'll be even between them since everyone does it. it'll still just come down to their skill in the end. What's wrong with a little doping? It's the culture.'
the fact that competitive pokemon has been around since gen1 and there is still no way to buy pokemon from a pokemon breeder with the exact qualities (moves, ability, ivs, evs, and nature) you want with pokedollars/battle points is completely ridiculous
The ability to buy any pokemon is great for competitive, but potentially ruins the game for casual or collecting focused players. You know, the people who shiny hunt or enjoy the social aspect of trading. That's why I suspect they're hesitant to implement anything like your idea. I've been thinking about this for months. The collecting and competitive sides of the pokemon franchise are inherently in conflict with each other. The thrill of collecting relies upon varying availability. But a perfect competitive environment should have all options equally available.
obviously it would be a post game feature, and could be locked to mons in your pokedex. it would also be a terrible method of shiny hunting, and could be shiny locked like most special pokemon now.@@thecaveofcreatures1728
@@thecaveofcreatures1728 theres the perfect solution of have it be an endgame unlock once the story has been beaten and adding a symbol to the breeded mons name so they can be identified.
It would not be hard at all to build a replay system for battles that could be used to resume a battle at least a turn before the disconnect happened. They had a battle replay function in third gen for christs sake. Game Freak simply doesn't care because they'll make the same amount of money either way.
The sooner pokemon turns the multiplayer battle mode into a system where players can gen in the pokemon they want, the better. Call it a "Virtual Pokemon Colisseum" or whatever you need to call it for lore, but let players make the pokemon they need to enact the strategies they come up with. Especially if you're going to have 3 or 4 formats in one season like this. How fucking cruel that they finally enact gen-checking at worlds during a season where they intentionally made a format that encouraged genning more than any other season. They could also do round-by-round state saves in this mode for offline/tournament mode battles. Even if its only for special mode circumstances such as tournaments, it is amazing that in this day and age, a simple, turn-based battle simulator such as pokemon can't have some kind of "battle record". Each and every RNG roll can be recorded as a line in a fucking .txt file. Seriously, here's how a "turn" of combat between two pokemon looks like by the game data - "Player 1 == Charizard; Player 2== Landorous; P1speed > P2speed = true; Charizard selected 'flamethrower'; STAB check = true; SuperE = false; DMG roll range ((75,83)*1.5)= 117; Landorus HP = ((Current HP - (117)) = -5; HP check
Honestly we just need to revive the pokemon stadium series and use that for competitive battling. Having competitive battles tied to a story driven RPG is what creates this mess in the first place.
I would have much more of a problem with genning if there wasn't a paywall behind acquiring every Pokémon legitimately. Like, if I'm playing a tournament for one game, I should only need to spend the money on that one game and the system to play it. Instead, for a tournament like this, I'd have to pay for one of the two games of the generation, AND Sw/Sh, AND DLC for both games, AND Legends: Arceus AND a subscription to Pokémon Home. That's over $200 spent before even putting in the effort in each individual game to get to the point where you can get the Pokémon you want to use. Not everyone can afford to spend that kind of time or money, especially any younger players. With all of that in place, it would be pretty stupid NOT to gen, wouldn't it?
Imagine that in order to participate in VGC, or any video game tournament, you first had to 100% Elden Ring 4 times as a barrier to entry. That is about how long it takes to fully optimize 1 team legitimately, and that doesn't even take into account practice time afterwards. Now imagine that you were a tennis player going to a local tournament. Imagine that before you can even start practicing for the event, you first you had to spend some 300 hours hand crafting your tennis shoes, racket and clothes. That is how absurd the barrier to competitive Pokémon is.
Traded mons getting snagged is the biggest issue for me. If a pokemon is illegal, the in-game trade feature should block/flag it. You should be able to rely on the game to enforce the rules, as otherwise there's no internal way to hack-check your own pokemon. You basically have to use cheat tools to determine if your pokemon are hacked, which seems completely silly.
I always thought it would be cool if they took a page out smogon showdowns book and have a game that is its own separate thing for battling specifically. Maybe update it throughout the years. But unfortunately that wouldn’t happen because like you said, they are banking on competitors buying all the games in order to make a good team.
I have heard some pros talk about what it takes to prepare legit teams for these tournaments. Months of preparation and sometimes even employing people just to make your teams. It really cripples the chances of everyone who is working a normal job or doesn't have a sponsor. I think the skill ceiling would be a lot higher if it was more accessible and more people could participate.
it's very funny and pretty sad that basically every single thing tpc does these days causes at least one controversy and gets huge backlash. they can't host an event, post a tweet or walk across the street without disqualifying someone or implementing a stupid rule
In my opinion, the problem is that people gen their mons so poorly that GF can detect them, Kurt has so many documentation and checks to gen them perfectly, it doesn't take long.
Some people were caught because they did really obvious genning (Pokemon not in SV 'first met' in SV or from other games but no Home tracker, such as an Urshifu from SV or Ursaluna whos never been to Hisui). Others were caught even if they looked real. Probably something else with the internal code TPC wont say because they dont want the third party genning softwares bypassing it.
There’s even an autolegality mod, though in fairness it’s not very good because it just has like 1 preset for every Pokémon that’s guaranteed to be legal
I personally feel that genning takes away from the actual point of playing the game is. It takes away the grind and what part of pokemon truly is. I understand its to save time but then again it also is in the rules that it is not allowed and it isn't fair to the people who genuinely follow these rules. If you aren't willing to put in the time to grind for these pokemon and these enforcers find out these mons aren't legit then you deserve what's coming to you.
The ideals of "what pokemon should really be" end real quick once you're playing competitive against other players for money. The difference between genning a 'mon and doing it legit are the hundreds of eggs discarded from the latter method.
The fact that a warning email was sent and so many people were saying that the hack check “came out of nowhere” baffles me. I don’t take issue with someone hacking, but it is technically against the rules so if you get caught, it’s on you. Don’t be salty and just cheat better lmao
I agree wholeheartedly with your conclusion. Genning is perfectly fine, but why would you risk that for Worlds, of all things? Moral argument or not, it's in the rules, and they have the right to DQ for that. and are people really that willing to die on this hill? ESPECIALLY when there was a warning Gen all you want when training, since that has tons of iterations and refinement, but for fucks sake just make the final iteration legit
I was waiting for the "but" or the turn and it never came. It was hinted at briefly with an "in the west" comment, but the true driver of the genning check being much more stringent this time around was never addressed. Worlds took place in Japan, where it is illegal to modify game data or consoles. Japanese players, at least the vast majority, play with this understanding and by these rules/laws. This is all about a level playing field as well a bit of cya as far as legality is concerned. TPC sending an alert 8 days in advance shows awareness of the genning outside of Japan. I get a chuckle out of the message essentially being "hey please don't break the rules (but for real this time)."
How is putting up a massive paywall and time sink into getting a basic competitive team going leveling the playing field? If anything it makes it skewed heavily in favor of people with money to get all the games and the free time required to get stuff up and running.
For what it's worth, I've heard that it's actually a crime to have modified video game save files in Japan, and considering this is the first ever World Championships in Japan, might have something to do with it
No it's not. Modding Game files is illegal, save data or simply mods which don't alter the original games code are totally legal If you have a game on a cartridge as example, it would be illegal to modify what's on the cartridge, but legal to change the save data on your SD card
@@otozinclus3593 According to the Japanese news source "Asahi Shimbun", back in 2021, someone in Nagoya, Japan was arrested for selling Pokémon genned on a desktop computer. It *is* a prosecutable offense in Japan. The exact boundaries of legality when it comes to software modification are unknown, but it seems likely that any modification to software (including save data) that is not officially allowed by the owners of the software is prosecutable. [Edit]: After more refining of the translation, it may have been specifically due to doing the genning for other people, thus giving them a workaround for the software's technical restrictions...? The exact wording is a bit ambiguous and a bit inconsistent. It could be interpreted either way. [Edit 2]: Looking at the act itself from the Japanese government's law lookup website as well as outlines of the laws from Japan's patent office, it seems like it falls under part of a loose bit of definition as part of Article 2, Section 1, Subsection 10. Incidentally, due to broad definitions outline in subsection 10 and the implications from subsections 10-13 plus further corroboration by definitions defined later in Article 2, there may be pretty firm legal grounds for 1) 'knowingly possessing of genned Pokémon' and 2) 'knowingly trading genned Pokémon to other people' both being prosecutable offenses, let alone creating genning software or using software to gen Pokémon. It's unlikely that criminal charges will be placed on everyone who gens, but, if the companies that own the Pokémon games wanted to, they seemingly have firm grounds for prosectution.
There's been a similar controversy in Magic: The Gathering. Decks for the Legacy format use very rare cards and typically cost $2-5 thousand dollars, but Wizards of the Coast forbids players from using counterfeits (or proxies) in any sanctioned tournament. The majority of players agree with this. A minority of players disagree and argue "it should be about play skill, not how much you can afford", similar to the Pokemon arguments. However, no one owns every single Legacy-relevant card-- having a playset of all of them would probably cost between $100,000-$200,000-- so card availability and price affect just about every single Legacy player. There are a minority of players who do use counterfeits and hope to not get caught, but those players are at a pretty substantial unfair advantage versus players who perhaps couldn't run every single card they wanted to, either because they couldn't find or couldn't afford the cards they wanted to run. I don't think it would be fair to those players to stop enforcing the rules against counterfeits. Seems pretty similar to the Pokemon arguments, to me-- when you don't enforce the rules against genned Pokemon, it's extremely unfair to those who chose to play by the rules.
There is an issue with counterfeits though: those are actual fraud as they hurt the market. I think a better tcg equivalent would be exclusively buying boosters vs buying singles from the secondary market. There are actually players who consider the latter to be cheating, and well someone who buys singles will have a substantial time advantage over those who try to pull all their cards in the same way a genner might have a time advantage over a breeder.
@@drunyon214 there are really casual groups who utterly stand by that, sometimes with justifications like "the excitement of pulling a good card is part of the game", "buying singles gives an unfair advantage over those who buy boosters" or "when everybody just buys all the good cards, then everybody will use the same stuff". Ironically those players in my area will still use shocklands or sheoldred the apocalypse, but "it's fair because they pulled them". The main difference is that magic is much more predominately made for, well, multiplayer, so the competitive group and mindset are much stronger there than with pokémon, a game mostly focused on its single player mode, where the casual mindset is stronger.
You realize that tcgs are the perfect example of inherently unfair games? We all accept that not bcuz it makes for good games when being rich gives you a huge advantage, but bcuz tcgs are primarily about getting ppl to spend money on cardboard and enough of the communities actually like doing that. I mean id never play a tcg seriously bcuz im not here to spend hundreds of dollars to even start competing let along get good at it.
A big reason for TPC enforcing the hack checks to this degree is because genning (more specifically the means of genning) is illegal in Japan. To access data and import the data of genned Pokémon you need to make modifications to your Switch, and these modifications go against certain laws in Japan. Having players who made these modifications play puts TPC in legal risk, so minimizing the number of hack mons present helps them in court. We don’t have hack checks like this in North America or Europe because the modifications required to gen aren’t illegal.
How’s this for a “b-but fair play” argument: If it’s no longer decided by who is the best pokemon battler, but by who has the most free time to grind out teams, then your competition is not about finding the world’s best pokemon battler.
It’s such a gross move that we got a new ruleset 2 months before Worlds that requires completion of 2 $60 games to get meta-relevant Pokemon. It’s such a middle finger to people who didn’t play Gen 8. Of course people will cheat, some of them have to.
It's really simple: make an end game mon genner that creates competitive ready mons that can only be used to ladder & battle in tournaments. If someone wants to go through the slog of grinding to build a team, give them some kind of special mark on their mon so they can show it off (I personally enjoy the grind in some games, not all of them). I'm sure it wouldn't be too challenging to track if a mon has been hatched at lvl 1, fully ev'd & trained, etc. Then, crack down like hell on genners all you like (I personally don't care)
Ive always been in the mindset of "Its not the Pokemon, its the player" Sure anyone coukd have a perfect IV Pokemon, but will they actually know whatre theyre doing and how to predict their opponents? Probably not.
Its a mix of both, in the video it was stated how much stats matter, with the Empolieon vs Terratria example. If it was really about the skill of the player people wouldn't be going to such extremes to get 0 speed IVs.
A youtuber named ImaBlissy did a comparison between making a competitive team from gen 3 up to current gens and I believe it was less time doing it back then. Even with him using RNG manipulation it still took over 60 hours to get a competitive team made
@@JameShark_ He did go pretty overboard in that one though. Why did he decide to use HGSS to get Ursaring again? You can get that in base Scarlet and Violet easy and then send it to PLA to evolve.
@@aedrarising2760 rng manipulation for its stats and shininess is the likely reason. Probably is faster than breeding is SV without any manipulation at all.
@@JameShark_ Didn't Game Freak literally have a Tera Raid event not that long ago with 0 IV Ditto to catch so you could use them for breeding? I'd imagine if you're a competitive player that's something you'd have an eye on. Like, sure, you can say a NEW player wouldn't have that, but you're not starting VGC literally at Worlds, you're ending a whole season there.
3:08 I want to point out two things about that poll: First, though it might seem to show that the vast majority of people don't care if someone gens in a tournament, most people who watch Freezai's videos are overwhelmingly more likely to be competitive players or people who know about competitive, genning, etc., so there's definitely a strong bias in favour of the first option in the poll which has certainly affected the results. If this poll was presented to a different audience, the results might be more even. Second, although Freezai explains the definition of genning in this video, he didn't do so in the poll. This means the few people who found this poll but aren't too familiar with competitive battling might have thought genning is defined as "getting Pokémon with a third-party software" (regardless of whether they are is functionally identical to regular Pokémon). Some people in the comments might to have this definition in mind too (i.e. 3:24 "as long as the pokemon is something that CAN be obtained without genning its fine" this seems to assume you can gen a Pokémon that's different from the ones you get in-game). Some recent articles that cover the genning controversy explicitly use this definition of genning (e.g. Charlie INTEL) or do not make the definition clear, which means some people who are opposed to genning might be more tolerant towards it if they understood what genning actually means. I would be curious to what a poll that doesn't have these two biases would look like. I think if it included both casual and competitive players and if everyone understood what genning actually is, the results would be more even, but the "don't care if people gen" would probably still win.
i think with the sentiment of this comment section alone, given a large portion of freezais page is also casual players from how the tera smogon stuff was handled i think this IS the outreach we would get. most people genuinely do not care as long as it’s not actually inherently something with an advantage.
Finally someone competent covers it. The only other person who I’ve seen cover it is Garbagefly and you already know he isn’t gonna give an unbiased and fair opinion
This was originally a reply to a comment but this is the bare minimum you would need to get legit Pokemon for competitive, assuming that you needed a GBA or DS-exclusive egg move: - 3 consoles including Switch (Nintendo DS OG/Lite, 3DS, Switch) - *Around ~$600 if you get a good deal on consoles* - At least 2-3 games (you will likely need more than this to access specific egg moves or Pokemon, this is the bare minimum to transfer from GBA/DS games to Switch) - *can cost anywhere from $200 AUD to significantly more depending on the games you need and what language you buy in, and none of them are cheap unless you get lucky with 3DS or Switch games. Expect to pay at least original retail price for most GBA and DS games.* - Pokemon Bank/Transporter, on a console which already had it downloaded prior to the eShop closure on 3DS - *free but you need to make sure the 3DS you buy has this* - DLC for the Switch games in order to access DLC exclusive Pokemon and features - *at least $45 AUD* I could probably do a price estimate with a bit of digging but that would easily add up to close to a *thousand Australian dollars or more* for everything, assuming you want to do everything with legitimate, un-tampered with copies of the games and consoles involved. A PS5 console is cheaper than that. The price will obviously vary depending on the games needed, but considering that Game Freak isn't even making money on second-hand sales, it feels a little excessive.
Really the right solution to genning is to make it official. Offer an official tool to gen your pokemon for a tournament, and now it's both not hacking and not exclusionary. The ideal world. But of course, they would never do this because they've dug in their heels and they hate their players. Ruining peoples' tournament experience is the whole point of banning genning, so why would they want to solve this problem? They've always seen the grind as vastly more important than enjoyment and fairness. But perhaps they'd like to prove me wrong and solve this in a sane way.
This is why I was always in awe of people who got competitive gift only legendaries where you could only get one per game, needed a limited time and code availability and needed not only the right nature but right IVs
Training is fun....for people who like the training. Most competitive battles are not those people, genning makes the game better and doesnt get rid of the fun of training mechanics which still are very very applicable in things like challenge runs or maybe other styles of play. Genning can also be mode limited too to keep it only in the competitive realm so it doesnt affect the collectors or whatnot. They really really should just create a rental system like so many people have asked for.
Another advantage of genning is that you don't have to spend extra money to buy another pokemon game to get older gen significant pokemon. At least here in Latin America, there's a lot of competitive players that doesn'r have PLA or even SS, so here the genning is pretty common and no one cares about it because of this.
"BrO jUsT gRiNd FoR tHe MoNs" you can just tell these mouthbreathers against genning would've all been OK with the state Battlefront 2 was in at launch
…so by ignoring the rules you agreed to you’re less childish? You’re how old playing a “kid’s game” professionally? Mature Adults don’t participate in events they refuse to follow restrictions on. It’s like saying Steroids are fine because gym equipment costs time and money and the Olympics are about SKILL.
Should have mentioned that the guy who overall won was found to have a modified amoongus that somehow didn't get noticed but the legality checker. It was caught with 18 speed iv but was overridden with items to 0 speed, which isn't possible as there is no item that does that
It seems TPC not only needs to change the time they take to make a new Pokémon game, but too change so many things about online battle and official tournaments.
There's too much ignorance on the casual side of pokemon and this video helps mitigate it a bit. Thanks for this video. They need to learn how competitive pokemon works and always worked.
Remember mastering the craft of Gen Pokémon, entering every single detail you could think of to enter a local tournament because they was gonna check for genned Pokémon. I then lost to my friend who had Pokémon with every stat maxed with 250 Evs . I didn’t find out until a couple months later when I was seeing why my calculations on outcomes was always off. Wasn’t mad just impressed I was able to even sometimes
To me personally, I don’t think that genning is inherently wrong but the fact is the rules says it’s illegal for the tournament and the people who do generate their team should know the risks they are taking when explicitly going against the rules.
this + announcing the next Worlds in Hawaii, a place where the natives are VERY against tourism (rightfully so), along with the Maui wildfires (not TPCs fault obviously), there's been a lot of issues with Worlds recently lol. at least they made a 200k donation, but that's basically pennies for them. I really hope they reconsider and host Worlds somewhere else, like a region in Spain (y'know, for Paldea) edit: Paldea is Spain, not Latin America. got confused lol
I think the core of the genning issue is how Japan handles hacking game consoles/games. It is strictly forbidden there you even have to pay a fine if you get caught. Most japanese players never do it for that reason. If a whole scene can not use that resource, having to waste money/time to build teams instead of just getting them instantly while another one can it is obviously not an even playing field for a tournament(imagine one football team has to organize their infrastructure while another can snip with their fingers and its there). It is genuinely just terrible gamedesign i do not understand how they can run tournaments without giving the players a system to get perfect Pokemon in a legit way that does not require buying 8 games and spending hours or hacking the game and bypassing the mechanics they put in the game.
I used to be against genning, all the way until I actually played the game and wanted to make a VGC team for myself and realized what a time consuming process it is. While I am the kind of person who enjoys the hunt and the grind to make a team with my own specifications, I seriously do not blame people for genning mons, as long as they are legal. I'm lucky enough to have zero responsibilities and no family, so I can just rawdog it out and grind for whatever I need. The MAIN issue comes along when you have mons like Enamorous-Therian that you definitely want at least 0 speed IVs, and I can almost guarantee that's why there was effectively no Enamorous-T present at Worlds/Regionals even if it's not the greatest mon. So lets say it's someone's first time building a team: 1. Own a copy of Pokémon Legends Arceus 2. Play through the entirety of the game's main plot 3. Catch 3 genies 4. Get the 4th genie revealed. 5. Catch Enamorous. 6. Transfer to Home. 7. Tera shards/vitamins/bottle caps/mints to your liking. 5 is the part where it gets dicey if you don't specifically know how Arceus' stat system works. Since PLA uses a different stat-system, you need to know what you're looking for. Legendaries from PLA will come with a minimum of 3 perfect IVs, as designated by what effort level is has 3 in. Problem kicks in when you DO get an Enamorous with 0 effort levels in speed, but in PLA's system 0 effort level means somewhere between 0 to 20 IVs and there's no way to check specifically without saving your game. So you can have a speed that makes Enamorous-T too fast to function properly under trick room. So, if you played through PLA casually and wanted to make a new team using Enamorous-T, you might (probably) now have to replay through the entire game just to catch one. Then when you do catch it, you need to know that if you want your optimal Enamorous, it's speed needs to be exactly *168* and it's attack (unless you're going physical Enamorous) needs to be 149 (which are it's 0IV stats at level 70, when it's caught), otherwise you can save reset and try again and that's me assuming from memory that the stat system actually shows the correct pokemon stats in PLA, which isn't for certain with how different the game works in general. The issue here comes along when if you don't know when and where you can save reset and you just casually want to try an Enamorous-T team you can effectively brick your save by just saving and have to play through the entire game again. Not to mention that the genies are a bitch to catch to begin with because of PLA's mechanics. This is one of the main reasons I think Trick Room teams are never as relevant in the meta the moment legendaries are introduced into the formats, because it's such a hassle to get legitimate mons, Trick Room ends up becoming an anti-Tailwind strategy rather than having a team focused around TR. Some people would say "oh but that's on you for not knowing when and where you can save, should've known that beforehand if you wanted to use that mon!!" to which I say, it's literally just fluff to be as inconvenient as possible for people who DON'T know how it works. We should be wanting more people to play, not less. At least all of this is in a game without version exclusives, let alone from the same console/generation. The fact that I had to start playing Pokémon Go to get myself an Alolan Muk for a team I was testing out is stupid, because I didn't want to pay extra in Pokémon Home, and I don't even know if you can transfer from 3DS anymore anyways. Paradox mons also has this problem to some extent since you can't breed them, it's an unnecessary amount of grinding for people who want to be able to put in practice games with their teams instead of either hoping to find somebody to trade a min-IV speed/attack mon from a version exclusive - hoping THAT mon is legal and going through the process of getting it ready. If you don't want genned mons to appear in your official tournaments, stop making it so excessively time-consuming to get your teams going and include the anti-hyper training to reduce a mon's IVs to zero. I mean I'm of the opinion that we moved on way too quickly to include legendaries at all but I'm also one of those people who like lower power levels. By the time the Ruins were allowed into VGC, most people that were going to play VGC had already caught them which means if you want something like a min-speed Ting-Lu or one of the previously mentioned situations, you'd have to restart your save or buy the other version of the game to be able to still transfer to Home within the same profile. It's a complete mess honestly. Edit: I forgot I still had Enamorous-T's stats open and not regular Enamorous, so fixed the stats mentioned. At the very least I can try to be helpful if someone wants to try to catch it after reading my post.
I just love how Freezai communicates information. He's just really good at talking through from A to B to C in a straightforward way. It's really nice.
Genning is a service issue in Pokemon games. People generate teams instead of building them by hand because of how much time it takes to make a competitively viable team. You could play the game 6 times over by the time you've built the first mon on your team. You could finish some JRPGs by the time you finish making a team in competitive pokemon. It's also an accessibility issue with the games, making it so potentially great players ignore pokemon in favor of other things they could do with their time. People still play Master Duel even though there are better alternatives to online TCG battling with Yugioh. Pokemon could take a page out of that book and make a battlesim in game and more people would use that than something like Showdown.
Think I remember someone suggesting that there’s a big disconnect between how comp players want to play vs how Pokémon wants you to play. Pokémon wants you to bond with the creatures available, while the comp players want a pretty looking number simulator with rpg elements. Also I can get the issue for getting the hisui Pokemon, but for others like Cressalia and Urshifu, I feel most of these players would of already have played those games to have one laying around.
That is incorrect. I know multiple people that don't have easy access to those mons, myself included. I haven't played vgc in months because I cannot legitimately get the mons required to play competitive teams right now. The only way I could is trading and hoping the mons aren't genned.
Well people who do these tournaments are just in for the tournament they don’t give a damn for the actual game most probably just played LA just for the Pokémon not to actually play the game like yours supposed to
Great takes overall, man. And now with worlds done, you can get back to Real Mons and get that number 1 in randbats. Honestly tho, I’ve loved VGC since 2009 when I was a kid. And nowadays, problems like the lack of an in-game team builder and the general lack of support from TPCI just makes me sad. It’s tragic really. This is one of the biggest media franchises and it has a pathetic competitive scene. It deserves better :/
this is why I always gen my pokemon myself - i catch the pokemon in game or take it from the encounter database then just modify the tera type, moves, ivs, item, evs and then put it back on my save file
I feel that the only reason they're enforcing genning now is because genning completely removes the necessity of Pokémon HOME, and TPC isn't about to give incentives to drop your sub
The solution is actually very simple. Add Tournament mode, at the current state it's just takes longer to grind than test out theories. Tbh i am more interested in the metronome korean debacle where this is the result of TPC implementing an inherently a shitty competitive format, which means god only knows how many shitty competitive formats (organizing-wise) had happened in the peast
Your point about the warning email and not taking the risk of outgenning the checks is fair, but i've heard more veteran players (like marco silva) say that the same email was sent the years prior when the rule ended up not being enforced. So in the end it does feel a bit unfair to me that those checks were made without any additional warning
@@Skullhawk13 yes. if a rule is generally going to be ignored and only exist on paper than any time than if the rule is suddenly not ignored there needs to be clear communication that is distinct from the times it was ignored.
