Exploring the 1000 Mile Car Battery - Aluminum Air Hype?

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Exploring the 1000 Mile Car Battery - Aluminum Air Hype? Sign up to Morning Brew for free today bit.ly/mbundecided. Even though electric vehicle adoption is picking up speed, some buyers are hesitant because of range anxiety and concerns about lithium-ion battery safety. An interesting battery technology popped up recently involving metal-air technology that could make an EV with over 1000 miles of range. Is it too good to be true? Let's explore aluminium air batteries and whether they're a game changer or only hype.
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11 окт 2021

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Комментарии : 3,9 тыс.

@UndecidedMF 2 года назад

But what do you think? Would you want to drive an EV that required battery swapping? Thanks Morning Brew for my daily news briefing - sign up for free here bit.ly/mbundecided And if you liked this video, be sure to check out Exploring Massless Energy Battery Breakthrough ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-7rJf_n3bc0I.html

@sid1234213 2 года назад

I guess an ev with 10 minutes to full quick charge would be ideal.

@arkatub 2 года назад

I wonder when people get bored of new battery tech videos.... (tech that goes nowhere)

@BillB33525 2 года назад

People have no issue with pulling into a gas station and filling up the gas tank so what's the difference if they pull into a battery station open the hood or trunk and swap a battery?

@CaseAgainstFaith1 2 года назад

Seems like it might be viable for aviation.

@CaseAgainstFaith1 2 года назад

@@arkatub Nobody knows which tech will go somewhere. All we can do is keep up with the advances and make our own bets.

@DaveShap 2 года назад

If they are super light with super high energy density, but require specialists to swap out, then they sound like they are perfect for aircraft.

@Aaron628318 2 года назад

Energy of combustion per mass of Aluminium is 68% that of kerosene, and I suspect the efficiency of a battery/motor/fan would be considerably higher than that of a jet engine. You could be on to something...

@signkutter9218 2 года назад

When gas stations first appeared on the scene...it required trained gas attendants to gas up vehicles

@Psi-Storm 2 года назад

and to replace diesel engine trains.

@CHIEF_420 2 года назад

🤞

@Baminokrat 2 года назад

The issue in aviation is the lack of air at altitude. This battery requires oxygen in the cathode. You would need a compressor to provide enough oxygen to the battery. An electric air compressor could easily use up a significant portion- if not all- of the battery output. It really depends on how much oxygen is actually needed. We could also carry an O2 bottle but it poses a fire hasard and adds weight.

@EgnachHelton 2 года назад

Biggest elephant in the room: what's the roundtrip efficiency? How much energy is needed to recycle the battery for each kWh of the battery?

@TheControlPhilosopher 2 года назад

Even so, for the recycling of the Aluminium oxide from spent batteries, there is a ready infrastructure in place. It is way better feedstock for the Aluminium smelter than bauxite. In contrast recycling Lithium is very complex, messy & not at all viable.

@ccibinel 2 года назад

Yep without a ton of scientific analysis of recycling we cant even say this would be less environmentally harmful than diesel (although it probably is). If the only major input is power (and it isn't in insane amounts) that can come from renewables but if chemicals that get used up are needed then we need to compare that to burning dead dinosaurs.

@peka2478 2 года назад

How is that any kind of elephant? 1 kWh in a battery in a car is worth infinitely* much more than 1 kWh in a factory where those batteries are produced; So what does the energy cost of building & recycling a battery matter?

@TonboIV 2 года назад

@@TheControlPhilosopher A lithium battery lasts a whole lot longer than 1000 miles though, so far less lithium is being used in the first place.

@TonboIV 2 года назад

@@peka2478 It's an "elephant" because it defeats the entire purpose of an electric car. If you're using up 2 or 3 or 4 times as much energy to make the battery than it produces, then it isn't very sustainable. Solar and wind take up a lot of space and we want to use them efficiently, and even if we do have that much carbon neutral energy to waste, fuel cells have about a 45% round trip efficiency, and they can still be used more than once.

@hjohnson143 2 года назад

I'd like to see a hybrid approach using both the aluminum air batteries for long-term storage and, perhaps smaller, lithium ion batteries. That way if you run out of aluminum air battery, you can still recharge. It's always good to have some recharge capability on board for regen. This hybrid approach would be way better than what we call hybrids today!

@TomTerrific1000 2 года назад

The Phinergy demo car has a lithium ion / aluminum air hybrid battery pack. Li-ion is used for short range and aluminum air for long range travel

@AaronSchwarz42 2 года назад

Mixing tech like that the key. Tesla bought up utral-super capacitor makers so given better peak regen & peak power to their battery energy storage system in the upcoming roadster //

@danielvilliers612 2 года назад

I would say the other way round, a smaller 100 miles lithium battery for 95% of trips, and a cartridge like swappable aluminum one that you lease at your local gas station for that longer trip.

@sethkritarth 2 года назад

That's exactly what I was thinking as well, but with ultracapacitors instead for regenerative breaking. Can capture more current for every breaking and one less thing to swap out due to depletion, which is important from the buyers perspective.

@0urmunchk1n Год назад

When I was listen and heard "can't be recharged" my first though was "what about regenerative breaking?" That could seriously deplete an EV's efficiency in cities where stop and go traffic is common. Back up a rechargeable of some form seems like it could overcomes that limitation.

@thezfunk 2 года назад

We'll have growing pains like this as we move forward. My Dad grew up in the 1950s and 60s. Because of poor lubricants and tolerances capable in the cars at the time, he was used to cars needing an engine rebuild every 50-60 thousand miles or so. The 100, 200, 300 thousand mile car engines today still are amazing to him. We'll probably experience something similar with EVs. We'll have range anxiety while our kids will wonder how we became so traumatized.

@roshansivaprakash1930 Год назад

Can Air Aliminum batteries be a consideration for aviation

@w8stral Год назад

@@roshansivaprakash1930 No. Aircraft today are ~1/3 fuel by weight on long haul and less as range gets shorter and shorter. Kerosene with a conversion efficiency of around 45% has energy density of roughly 12,000Wh/kg compared to lithium ion of 200Wh/kg. This aluminum battery specifically this version in video is 1300Wh/kg, or 10X worse than kerosene which only converts at 45% efficient which means the aluminum battery would be ~5X worse in terms of range. So, it technically would be possible to operate a SHORT haul aircraft of say ~1000km, but you would not be going over an ocean. Since it is NOT a universal solution, this = useless..... But for marine use? Where every port has big cranes? Hell yes, this is a solution.

@semireckless 6 месяцев назад

@@w8stral There's a looot of air traffic under 1000 km.

@w8stral 6 месяцев назад

Here is reality: niche products are useless. You must have a UNIVERSAL solution. We have plenty of niche products available that are superior to what we use today. We do not, due to mass manufacturing realities making these superior products uneconomic to the average person. Now if you have some excess $$$, yes, you can buy them and yes, they are superior and yes, I try to do so when I can, just as a lot of people do, but majority cannot DO SO. Same goes for short range aviation. And if you are talking under 1000km, then there are a host of other solutions. And no, we do not have a battery solution even on the horizon for a small aircraft with ZERO load to fly 1000km. We need at LEAST a 5X improvement in battery capacity/kg. @@semireckless

@buddywhatshisname522 2 года назад

First off, I’m a marine engineer, and the thought of replacing the huge fuel tanks with stacks of shipping container sized aluminum air fuel cells in the same space would be great. Fuelling would be fast with no worries of spills probably using cranes and it would eliminate the diesel or heavy fuel generator side of the diesel electric setup. Win win… even if only shipping were to benefit from this tech. Big thing is price per battery change. It’d have to be much lower than overall cost of fuel and engine replacement. Here’s hoping.

@lesto12321 2 года назад

also electric motor require much less maintenance, space, way more efficient (aka less heat to deal with), safer, big container ship could cover the deck/container with solar panel to additionally lower fuel requirement..

@WoutMertens 2 года назад

@@lesto12321 right, and I also wonder if it wouldn't be better to have a bunch of smaller engines instead of 1 big one. With electrics it's easy to do.

@TimothyWhiteheadzm 2 года назад

Sounds great until you realize that the cost of fuel is waaaaay cheaper than these batteries - which are not rechargeable. Unless the remanufacturing cost is magically efficient (I noticed that this video never mentioned the energy required to remanufacture them) this is a monumentally stupid idea. A Lithium ion battery is the main cost of an EV. But you buy it only once. Buying a battery as 'fuel' is just plain stupid.

@lesto12321 2 года назад

@@WoutMertens generally speaking 1 big engine is more efficient that many smaller, BUT if with many engine you can remove other mechanical complexity like the clutch, differential, etc.. it may very possible to be more efficient in total even if less efficient the specific

@eastcorkcheeses6448 2 года назад

For automotive use - the simple option would be to have several standard removable batteries , to be used in sequence if possible - You wouldn't start a long night journey in a rural area without topping up your petrol tank - same here - and if the batteries were commonly used ,the breakdown truck would probably have 1 or standard batteries on board - maybe not enough for full power or "ludicrous mode" but enough to run the car in Eco mode .. thanks .

@Tysto 2 года назад

The obvious thing to do is to build a vehicle with 75 miles of range on lithium ion & 500 miles on aluminum air. Then all your daily driving can be rechargeable, & you dip into the aluminum for long trips. Battery changes are minimized down to once or twice a year.

@Teknomanslade2 2 года назад

Probably should be the other way around in the sense of using aluminum air as daily because of the degradation issues that were posed. then when aluminum is done lithium is an emergency backup that can be used to get you to a swapping station.

@danielweston9188 2 года назад

How about a small attachable Trailer/pod to carry a couple of Al's for long trips.

@vahidkhorshidi600 2 года назад

Been thinking about the same with Hydrogen fuels cells; now if the degradation issue is fixed with Aluminum air, seems there is a better match.

@francisboyle1739 2 года назад

@@Teknomanslade2 You can solve the degradation problem by simply not installing the battery until you're ready to make the trip.

@jhonsqueaks4573 2 года назад

@@francisboyle1739 Just Reported A Bot.

@thinkingoutloud6741 2 года назад

9:03 Imagine missing the fact that your long range gas tank is almost empty and you run out of gas. How much harder is it for a service to deliver a battery than to deliver a can of gas? And recognize, delivery of a battery is like delivering a complete full-up of gas, not just a gallon or two of gas. If this is implemented, the infrastructure will adjust and running out of aluminum will be no different than running out of gas. And if I’m designing a system for a car, it would have two “cells”, exactly as shown in the video, so you could swap out half your capacity while running on the other half. That way, the half way point is your trigger to find a new battery pack, not the empty mark. When I started driving many decades ago, my dad stressed that it costs the same to keep the top half of your gas tank full as it does to keep the bottom half full, so I already see the the half way mark as time to refuel. It’s not a difficult concept to learn or follow in your daily life.

@2ndAveScents 2 года назад

It costs more to run a full tank than half a tank because half a tank is lighter, so you get better mileage out of the bottom half of your tank, so Dad was wrong

@thinkingoutloud6741 2 года назад

@@2ndAveScents Hair splitting. Quibbling. I’m talking about the cost of the gas. You add in the cost of carrying the gas. So, okay, go ahead and add the ancillary costs, I’ll add ancillary value received. The cost of running out of gas more than offsets the few cents you are talking about in mileage. And that doesn’t consider the value of the safety/security and peace of mind you get from knowing you won’t run out of gas. You can go ahead and run on the last ounces of gas in your tank so you can get your .01 miles per gallon more. But if I stop to offer you gas as you sit on the side of the road, I hope you will refuse my help and stand your ground. Oh, and, go ahead and continue to be a troll. It’s cute. The world needs more obtuse (intentionally ignorant) people. The entertainment value you provide is a gift.

@shailendrachauhan592 2 года назад

Common Sense

@thomasrebotier1741 2 года назад

You also lose time by refueling twice as often...

@metalmann385 2 года назад

@@thinkingoutloud6741 I believe the term for your kind, incidentally, would be "head-up-the-ass", then.

@Berzerklight Год назад

It sounds like a good alternative for city buses. They could figure out how long between swaps and do it back at the motor pool. Especially for places that might lack good power infrastructure.

@marcb65 2 года назад

The idea of it being like a aux tank for current lithium batteries isnt bad. If you plan to go on a long trip, throw one in, get there and swap it out when you are heading out again.

@MySuperman112 2 года назад

Maybe a setup similar to plug in hybrids, where the li-ion battery can drive around 30mi would work well, but i think the reduced downtime lends itself really well to public transit, like buses that can travel all day on a single charge, no smelly diesel necessary

@user-yb5cn3np5q 2 года назад

For most in-city trips lithium battery would be enough. If aluminum-air battery stays in the car for a month, it degrades. Also having an unused battery at car all the time would take more energy to move it around. It really makes most sense to put it into the car only if a long ride is expected. This idea is lit.

@rehaesen8374 2 года назад

At first I thought it is stupid to loading up the swappable batteries onto trucks and carrying them to swap stations because it is a waste of resources, but then I remembered we have been doing the exact same thing with Petrol. Therefore I think it will boil down to the energy density. With a 1000 mile capacity, I would roughly be making a visit to the swap station every 3 months, which is awesome actually. As long as the proposed solution instructed a significant increase in energy density it is a strong candidate.

@Tore_Lund 2 года назад

Why only have an Al-Air battery? I consider this as a range extender: You get an Al-Air battery for Christmas, to visit family. The rest of the year you are perfectly fine with you small 40kWh Li-ion pack for all your driving. You can store a stash of Al-Air batteries dry indefinitely in you garage for emergencies like prolonged blackouts or even the prolonged camping holiday in the wilderness.

@rehaesen8374 2 года назад

@@Tore_Lund Considering that they are using silver in Al-Air batteries, it would likely be an expensive battery and would likely constitute a significant percentage of the car's price, therefore you probably would not afford to stash a few batteries in your garage. I agree with the smaller capacity batteries being suitable for most, especially inner city travel scenarios. The only downside of that is the frequent 20 minute wait period during the charging, which could sometimes be a bit hard to manage. Swapping the batteries is more practical, cause they say it takes less than 3 minutes, that is roughly equal to the amount of time it takes to fill up your tank.

@rehaesen8374 2 года назад

Wow, my comment got a bully and even a porn ad. So much attention, I feel like a celebrity :-P

@janami-dharmam 2 года назад

@@Tore_Lund these batteries will have a poor shelf life.

@janami-dharmam 2 года назад

@Joe Shumo For these batteries, the weight will increase as they get discharged. Forgotten basic chemistry? 100kg Al fully consumed will be 189kg - got it?

@ARSacco 2 года назад

Wow! My first job was research in Al-Air batteries almost 42 years ago. The exact same problems, especially with regard to corrosion of the Al. We approached it by playing with alloying agents. This worked to a degree, but not nearly as successfully as the MIT approach. The video really took me back. Thanks for making it.

@mattiafrancescobruni8318 7 месяцев назад

I have read about Ga-Al alloy in hydrogen production processes for preventing Al passivated and became unreactive....But they probably test it already

@DanielMRamos 2 года назад

Yes, a recyclable battery swap every few thousand miles instead of daily charging… count me in! Many people would be interested in this after all conventional ICE cars need periodic oil changes and people put up with it.

@scottmcshannon6821 2 года назад

i didnt hear anything about costs. is seems like if you throw the battery away every 1000 miles its got to be expensive.

@terenceennis2904 2 года назад

Costs are indeed primary.Fleet vehicles and leased cars could have their own depots particularly if they stick to one manufacturer.The potential here is unlimited. I would sign up to it.

@Mr.Mister001 2 года назад

3 minute swap is faster than filling up your tank with gas. Charging lithium isn't free like people think. Maybe it would cut down on child labor as well. Depends on cost but sounds great to me. 300 mile range is worthless to truckers for instance. Carry a few extra packs and you could cross the usa...

@Mr.Mister001 2 года назад

Forgot to mention how ev lithium are putting even more strain on the grid..

@kfl611 2 года назад

Lets say where you live has 10,000 cars that use Aluminum air batteries, will there be enough Gas stations with 10,000 + air batteries, just sitting there waiting to be used? I think not. Now if they could figure out hot the stop the degradation issue and be able to recharge them, then you have a game changer.

@davidwho8215 2 года назад

It could work, though I think a combination of Aluminum and Lithium batteries would be best. You could recharge your lithium pack normally, but insert an Aluminum pack for road trips.

@Daniel-rd6st 2 года назад

Thing is, you would carry around double the amount of weight. Also when you go on a roadtrip, especially with family, you will carry luggage with you, which means available space would quickly become an issue. The viability of those batteries for me hinge on the fact how good they can be recycled. Changing them every 1000 or so miles wouldnt be a difficult issue to overcome if you could simply get them from gas stadions. Also the problem mentioned in the vid with what happens if you should run out, isnt difficult too solve. Just call a servicecar that has a new batterie for you to use and you are good to go again.

@Teknomanslade2 2 года назад

@@Daniel-rd6st well im not sure it would be a weight increase if you are assuming the same space of the original batter compartment. I think he may be referring to using "partial" for lithium batteries and the rest for the aluminum. like 80-20 split which would actually be lighter than all lithium but still get maybe 2 to 3 times more range. the Lithium would then only be used a Reserve when the aluminum batteries runs out you would still have maybe 100 miles of range for emergency purposes to get you to a swap station. You could make the battery 2 compartments so when you go to swap station you are only swapping out the aluminum.

@MRTOWELRACK 2 года назад

@@Daniel-rd6st I would imagine limited range rechargeable battery for city driving with an expansion slot for optional swap when necessary.

@Anonymous_Man 2 года назад

@@Daniel-rd6st I think what he means to say is - you get your 50 mile lithium battery for the city which can be recharged in minutes and then when you'd go long range you slide in the aluminum oxide battery. Not a bad idea actually. In fact, makes much more sense than whatever the hell Tesla is doing right now. A 600 km battery on cars which would be driven 99% of the time in cities? What a waste of resources.

@josephdadey 2 года назад

I like the idea of standardized modular energy cells. Whether you're using Lithium Ion, Aluminum air, or maybe even a future technology, you can just swap these out in a minute or two, especially if there's some automated process that inserts/removes the modules, it would take moments to "refuel". Users could have a battery "service" that just swaps them out for replacement modules wherever they go, and modules would be rotated out of service as they became degraded.

@antimatter4733 2 года назад

I think this would be a great addition to a lithium ion battery as a sort of range extender. For 90% of your driving you just have a small lithium ion battery, but if you want to do a long trip you get one of these installed before you leave and suddenly you have like 1000km of range.

@alaric_ 2 года назад

Great idea but in practice would add more complexity to already complex electrical system.

@JackTalyorD 2 года назад

Would be less complex than the mass amount of charging station that need will have to be built. Gives ev a great market world wide to both long distance driving and less developed countries that don't have the electrical grid to support ........ Personal I'm on the fence about them but the should have a positive effective and make ev more viable over all

@antimatter4733 2 года назад

@@alaric_ I mean it's pretty simple compared to how complicated everything else already is

@michaelsteffeck6114 2 года назад

@@alaric_ Would it be any more complex than the gasoline hybrids we have now? You'd just be adding a different kind of battery to an electric circuit. Sure, you might have to account for things like voltage, amperage, phase, etc., but that seems pretty minor compared to an entire gasoline engine.

@Apafej627 2 года назад

@@michaelsteffeck6114 there is no complexity, you match the voltage of the car and that's it, the only complexity could be a separate battery management system for the aluminium air battery to make sure smooth operation.

@hans-peterklett8586 2 года назад

If the "refueling stations" are just a machine that does the swap in a few minutes, then the not-rechargeable thing doesn't sound so bad. Didn't Tesla hype that idea at some point?

@k-osmonaut8807 2 года назад

@@vablo7198 also you have no guarantee of the quality and integrity of the pack

@oliverkrause2799 2 года назад

Who guarantees , that the electricity companies or the goverment with a new green tax will not raise the price for your electricity at home? Happens here in Europe the last couple of years. The highest energy prices ever, thanks to new taxes for the support of green electricity. Everyone always wants our best and that is sadly our money :-)

@michaellanning9836 2 года назад

The big issue would be if you could recycle it into a new battery at a gas station what happens when you pull up and there isn't a battery for you

@k-osmonaut8807 2 года назад

@@michaellanning9836 yup, also no guarantee of the battery integrity

@monad_tcp 2 года назад

Its like with the methane in my house. Here we don't have piped gas, we just swap gas canisters, it gets the same result in the end, which is what matters. As long as switching is faster, what's the difference between replacing the battery versus filling a tank ? none.

@JGoodwin 2 года назад

I could see using these as a "spare tank" where the electrolyte is dumped into the battery only after you end up stuck and need to go another 50-100 or so miles. It might be an affordable way to have emergency range.

@DavidDornier 2 года назад

This looks like a better option for Electric Airplanes. High Density for point-to-point locations, then swap at the other side. All the infrastructure for swap + storage of the pack would be at the airports/terminals. Hopefully the recycling/manufacturing would happen nearby as well. Battery swap for cars would be a no-go for me, it could possibly make sense for long-haul trains or trucks, but I don't think regular cars need the range as much.

@phuckyoutube5927 2 года назад

You just copied the top comment you 🤡

@DavidDornier 2 года назад

@@phuckyoutube5927 well I was replying during the video so... "Great minds think alike"

@Chris-hw4mq 2 года назад

Only a moron would fly with an electric airplane, you just go from 600mph to 300mph

@leekebouw 2 года назад

Or just make it easy swap out and yes there is lots of need for long range vehicals and trucks.

@cerverg 2 года назад

@@Chris-hw4mq Who cares if it's cheaper (which most likely will be the case) That's why Concorde or similar planes are no longer even considered. Faster is not always better

@RyuuKageDesu 2 года назад

If there were two batteries, and the system was designed to switch as the first one dies, then vice versa, convenient swapping becomes much easier. Not to mention, effectively doubling the range, or allowing for half sized batteries.

@CBC460 2 года назад

Would that make it heavier though?

@johnkeck 2 года назад

Excellent!

@bhatkrishnakishor 2 года назад

@@CBC460 comment was alluding to the possibility of dividing the battery pack in to two halves. May be a marginal weight gain due to extra packaging. But definitely not twice the battery capacity or weight.

@bhatkrishnakishor 2 года назад

Or maybe have a small secondary lithium ion battery to facilitate quick charging when in dire need.

@stevesedio1656 2 года назад

My thought is a lithium main battery, that meets the daily commute range (50 miles , or less), that can charge quickly. Three slots for aluminum air batteries, as range extenders. The daily drive, one slot would have a 50 mile, aluminum air battery, just in case. That minimizes car weight. On a longer trip, install three, 100 mile aluminum air batteries. Swap used for new batteries at a service station.

@Apafej627 2 года назад

"When you run out of juice " have you heard of roadside assistance, 😉 they can bring you a module (I presume the batteries will be modular) to get you to a swapping station. ICE vehicles don't need to be towed to petrol stations either when they run out of fuel. 😊

@jiffypoo5029 2 года назад

I could see these being very viable for Commercial Fleet use less viable for Private use. These batteries seem ideal for a taxi service with a fleet of 300+ cars that are on the road for 23 hours a day with a dedicated depo for battery swap.

@ryanjamesloyd6733 2 года назад

This seems like an excellent option for things like planes, trains, and boats- where they all come to dedicated ports. Seems like it would be easy to build a swapping/recycling infrastructure for those. For cars, it seems like it would make for a good Emergency charger for ev's, but unless the whole auto industry went that way and they were available as quick swap universal batteries all over the place, I don't think it's a good general auto-option. I would absolutely keep one of these in my car for emergencies though (as, it would be easy to keep the aluminum separate from the electrolyte until you needed it. it would be like the E-version of a spare gas can. Also seems good for camping and such, provided there was somewhere to get it recycled/refurbished. I wonder how hard it would be to just make it so you could pull out the aluminum plate when not in use? that would help with the degradation issue, it seems like.)

@danielppps 2 года назад

Great point, it's not like plains can recharge midair anyway.

@jackhemsworth7515 2 года назад

@@danielppps if they made the tail lift up like some cargo planes used in the military, they could be swapped out really easily.

@patelk464 2 года назад

You have the problem with landing weight when using batteries in airplane. Batteries does not lose weight when used and therefore the landing weight would be the same as the take off weight.

@jellevm 2 года назад

@@patelk464 So? If it can take off surely it can land also.

@jonjohns8145 2 года назад

@@jellevm Not exactly, the designs of the tires and landing gear would have to be changed because most of them are designed for lighter aircraft on landing. It's not undoable, just will require changing things up a bit.

@prakrithkeshav9425 2 года назад

I think it's interesting that an oil company is taking the plunge into electric vehicles. It seems like a smart move as it theoretically would keep the company relevant, especially since their model involves swapping out batteries at their already existing petrol bunks

@trappedmoss1172 Год назад

That oil company doesn't make its own oil that's why

@GameDesignerJDG 2 года назад

Reprocessing the spent aluminum from aluminum oxide is effectively just restarting from aluminum ore. Making aluminum from ore is an energy intensive process so I wonder whether the ratio of energy required to make the batteries to the energy available in the batteries is comparable to recharging lithium ion batteries. If there could be savings there, maybe we should consider this option, as it would simply be energy that, instead of being transported over wire, pipeline, or tank, is moved by freight. Instead of gas stations or recharging stations, we all go to our local aluminum reprocessing station and exchange our used batteries for new ones.

@KS-mt1lb 2 года назад

Then the smelting can be sent to a geothermal site

@Panda_Gibs 2 года назад

I imagine the aluminum plates get coated in oxide to the point of unusability long before they physically run out of metal. If they can be reprocessed where an automated system scrapes the oxide from the plates and puts it back together, it might get a few lives before they need to put in fresh plates.

@AdlerMow 2 года назад

What about cooking aluminium oxide with hidrogen from electrolisys? At high temperature, it will combine with the oxygen and turn to pure aluminum and steam. Still energy intensive but less than smelting.

@jonathankarlsson1766 2 года назад

Maybe not the most optimal solution for cars, but what about aviation?

@slaya070492 2 года назад

or shipping?

@maxsinn402 2 года назад

@@slaya070492 I belive that a mix of kite power (great space to thrust ratio) and hydrogen (great weight to energy ratio) would be more viable

@slaya070492 2 года назад

@@maxsinn402 probably.

@arunlaljayaraman1554 2 года назад

yeah...if you think about it, aviation suits these batteries more than day to day commuting

@Yorick257 2 года назад

No... it's the most optimal for cars. Short range easy/automatic swappable multiple cells. Drop off at a charge station, take new ones. With aviation, as I understand, there is a weight spiral: need more power cells to take off -> takes more weight -> need more power cells to take of -> ... And these batteries are 1.5 times heavier than jet fuel (as in you need 1.5 kg of batteries instead of 1 kg of kerosine for the same energy capacity). It might be possible, I don't know how the final efficiencies compare (energy density combined with output from the cell and efficiency of the engine)

@JoelGustafsson 2 года назад

I guess you could bring a smaller backup battery on the road and have a full spare at home? I'm curious about the how much one of these batteries would cost.

@danielstark8258 2 года назад

The issue would be battery degradation during storage

@fparent 2 года назад

@@danielstark8258 unless the electrolyte can be added separately.

@grimfpv292 2 года назад

My guess is it would probably cost about the same as making a lithium battery today... so probably not at all practical for most uses.

@hubertnnn 2 года назад

@@grimfpv292 I dont think so, the silver that is expensive is not consumed in the reaction and could be reused without issues, and aluminum is cheap. It might be that you will have to pay a large price for a new battery, but get a refund of 90% of that price when you return the empty one. edit: Looking at the numbers from the video, you would have to pay ~$1.96/kWh plus any manufacturing margin plus the mentioned refundable cost. You can decide if that is expensive or not. Lithium batteries on the other hand cost about $500/kWh, but can be recharged (plus costs of electricity to charge it)

@juniorperry8757 2 года назад

There are a whole lot more things to consider, than, if one person would or wouldn't, Own a car with this type of Battery, . Like, will an backup charger Be available to carry along with the E.V. OR of course there not rechargeable, So, i think not, just for that reason 🤔.. I've often wondered if I could get an older model truck or car,. Put the work in to Converting it into an Electric vehicle 🤔, that i build myself, maintain myself, Change, battery's out myself, do everything that needed done, to it, ( THE CAR OR TRUCK) Myself,.

@bobertbirkely 2 года назад

I feel like they would make tons of sense in applications with really structured infrastructure and logistics chains. Applications like airlines, heavy trucks, buses, railroads, construction would work well be cause a lot of those vehicles need decent range/capacity and are often weight limited.

@TopShelfMontana 2 года назад

I need to know more about the recycling process. Fantastic video thank you

@lucasatilano8008 2 года назад

Not rechargeable, 80% degradation after a month? This sounds like a “solution” an oil company would get behind…

@rylaczero3740 2 года назад

Its not really an oil company, its a subsidiary of Indian Government.

@snowstrobe 2 года назад

There does seem to be solutions for the deg. But yeah, my ears prick up when an oil company gets involved, like the 'blue' hydrogen manufacturing...

@crk0806 2 года назад

@@rogerstarkey5390 You need to dig more. Indian Oil is a PSU (Public Sector Undertaking), which means it acts like a company i.e it has a CEO and a board and is listed in the market but the majority shareholder is the govt of India. It follows the directions of the Indian oil ministry .

@niteshsarkar 2 года назад

@@rogerstarkey5390 yeah

@niteshsarkar 2 года назад

@@rogerstarkey5390 the mining and distribution is done by Govt Of India though

@Helix535 2 года назад

This would be great as a range booster for electric cars using a rechargeable method for sub 400 mile ranges. Just hitch a small trailer on and boom, 2000 more miles of range.

@kylek29 2 года назад

I was thinking the same thing. But why a trailer? There's plenty of trunk (or frunk) space on many EV's, they'd just need to provide the optional port in one of those areas.

@snowstrobe 2 года назад

And coaches...

@DavidStrchld 2 года назад

@@kylek29 When someone has a long range/distance trip they are least likely to have room in the trunk for a set of aluminum plates. A roof mount or trailer mount makes the most sense for that extra range, though it doesn't need to be a wheeled trailer, but more like bike mount trailer.

@jonjohns8145 2 года назад

@@DavidStrchld While I don't know about a trailer per say, I think your main point is very much valid. Part of the problem right now is that car shapes/designs have been locked into 1 over all shape because of the internal workings of an ICE. There's the front engine compartment, the passenger cabin, then the trunk. With an EV, you can completely redesign that and come up with more optimized shapes that would allow for more charge capacity.

@ahtoshkaa 2 года назад

This sounds like the perfect solution.

@cesartrujillo4190 2 года назад

I’m most interested in the recyclability of these. How long does it take and how much energy is used to re make batteries. These sound great for trucks not passenger cars. Instead of waiting for the battery to reach zero we would replace at the end of every trip and use the excess battery as part of a larger battery use system perhaps to assist in peak shaving for EVs or other high demand cases. Also possibly a great use for rail since trip energy use variability is likely minimal.

@liamstacey419 2 года назад

Think e: bicycles

@RobyDavis 2 года назад

Matt! These videos (and puns) are so good. Is there a behind the scenes video of you recording. I assume you are using a teleprompter of some kind but it feels so natural.

@gschweiger 2 года назад

I can imagine a Rivian RT1 as is, with the pass-through being used for a swappable Aluminum Air battery. You would have a vehicle with long range capacity and a smaller Lithium-ion system for everyday commutes.

@bassam_salim 2 года назад

I will invest in that

@JBloodthorn 2 года назад

Or it could work as a tiny swappable backup battery for emergencies. Just enough range to get to the charging station, or to the hospital.

@emperorbruce1551 2 года назад

I have a Jaguar i-pace with a range of 235 miles. Once or twice a year I want to go on long trips and if I could put one of these batteries in the front trunk just for the long trip it would be VERY attractive.

@danielvilliers612 2 года назад

I would see it in every car. 90%+ trip would not need a bigger than 30-40 kwh battery. Just have a space for a swappable system when these are needed.

@zber9043 2 года назад

Good idea

@vinnytube1001 2 года назад

One thought that comes to mind RE: the Al/Air battery running out - what if EVs were designed like PHEVs? I.e. there's a ~40 mile range lithium ion battery pack in every car, but an aluminum air battery is used as a secondary tank. You can still charge the lithium part with a plug, just like a PHEV, to spare your aluminum/air battery, and then only replace that when it's fully gone. You'll be able to "top off" and get around without the aluminum air battery, so long as it's not a long road trip.

@SemiMono 2 года назад

@@truantray They aren't mythical. I have plenty of friends that do them multiple times a year, some that do more like 1500 mile trips multiple times a year. I dunno where you live, but it's very easy to do here. I do a road trip that long certainly annually, and I consider myself to be a bit of a shut-in (hehe, after all, I'm here commenting on youtube!) Granted, I know other folks who do it very rarely, so it's not a valid excuse for everyone in this country, even in the midwest where 40 miles is often not enough range for a normal run to get groceries. I personally had a 100 mile round-trip commute for over a year, and there are many who drive hundreds of miles a day for their work (I know several). It is most definitely not mythical. Out here traffic flows fast and miles are racked up very quickly. Electric would be nice but only with >= 200 mile range, and even then many of us would consider it a nuisance unless the charging network gets more dense and the charging time goes down dramatically. Out here, without a car, you usually aren't employable. It's not a lifestyle, the economy and society is completely dependent on it. The first time I met an adult american without a drivers license I was shocked. I thought such a thing didn't exist. And while this isn't necessarily most of the population, it is most of the land-mass of this country, and likely the majority of car purchases (inner city folks often don't own a car cause distances are short and traffic is awful).

@SemiMono 2 года назад

All of what I just said kept in mind, having a short range vehicle which can operate in a long-range mode could be useful even in the midwest. I like the thinking, though I may push the lithium range up closer to 100 miles.

@vinnytube1001 2 года назад

@@truantray We do track these things you know. The *average* time a family spends driving for summer vacations, annually, is 23 hours. Figuring 40mph average that's 920 miles. It also doesn't include Thanksgiving and Christmas, the heaviest travel holidays in the country. You non-Americans really don't have a grip on how big the country is. I know Australians get it at least.

@johnsaunders8315 2 года назад

@@vinnytube1001 As an Aussie, I was just going to make that point. We travel long distances in our vehicles because of the size of the country. Yes, people who live in urban areas (where most Aussies actually live) doing their daily commute can get by with and EV or a hybrid. But, when it comes to weekends or vacations, we hit the road and the distances get racked up. Another interesting question would be the torque generated by motors when towing. Aussies love their caravans (i.e. "trailers") and for that you need torque. For that torque, you need a power source which can sustain it. Will the Al batteries be able to do that?

@raam1666 2 года назад

@@truantray The U.S. is bigger than the entirety of europe, from the Ural mountains to east coast of iceland (only counting land area obviously)

@TopShelfMontana 2 года назад

wow... just found this channel. Amazing. Thanks!

@roidroid 2 года назад

6:56 _"of the same weight"_ But because aluminium is so light weight, that equivalent weight battery would be GIGANTIC in the space it takes up. It's like the "1 ton of feathers vs 1 ton of rocks" question, 1 ton of feathers takes up a LOT of room! The more realistic scenario would be a car with an aluminium battery of the same energy capacity as lith-ion, and probably taking up the same sized space (coz easy swapability will increase the size), but simply lighter weight. If this ever becomes a thing it'll be a bolt-on "500 km range extender" for your normal rechargable lith-ion electric car, that you return once it's used up. It's sort of like a 1-time use "jerry can" you'd use for trips out to the middle of the Australian outback.

@seneca983 2 года назад

"But because aluminium is so light weight, that equivalent weight battery would be GIGANTIC in the space it takes up." That logic does not hold. Aluminiun is about 5 times denser than lithium. By this logic it would be the lithium-ion batteries that would be gigantic, not aluminium-air batteries. "The more realistic scenario would be a car with an aluminium battery of the same energy capacity as lith-ion, and probably taking up the same sized space [...] but simply lighter weight." No, aluminium carries a lot of energy so for a given amount of capacity it would be both smaller and lighter than a lithium-ion battery.

@roidroid 2 года назад

@@seneca983 Surprisingly Lithium is only a small part of a lithium-ion battery, approx 2% by volume. The batteries are mostly made of Nickel & Graphite.

@derekjenkinson8014 2 года назад

The energy density is impressive, but one thing you never mentioned was it’s volume. How does it compare in volume for an equivalent 85kwh battery pack?

@jeffbenton6183 2 года назад

That's what I want to know (hopefully the algorithm gives this comment more attention if there is a reply).

@satwik1395 2 года назад

same question

@aidanprior5045 2 года назад

He discussed it when talking about the energy density. He compared it to lithium battery’s with maximum 2000watts per kg where as aluminium air was theoretical 8000w per kg

@jeffbenton6183 2 года назад

@@aidanprior5045 per *kilogram,* we're talk per - for instance - *cubic meter.* We're asking about the *spatial,* or *volumetric* energy density, not the mass-based energy density.

@aidanprior5045 2 года назад

My apologise. After posting the comment I realised this. Very good question to ask.

@bernardsulman1506 2 года назад

You'd need 2 batteries in your EV car. When the first runs flat switch over to the second. Then you have time to go into a swap station and get a new battery before the second battery runs out. Any business that has ever run a forklift on gas bottles adopts the 2 bottle strategy.

@JoePolaris 2 года назад

Great content Matt. Keep it up!!

@sproglode 2 года назад

Another excellent and informative video - thanks...

@pauldenney7908 2 года назад

So let's say you can go 4 times farther than a Tesla M3. The cost of charging my M3 four times is about £90 of 135 dollars, for a Aluminium battery to match that you have to lift the battery out, send it for recycling, clean it, rebuild it and ship it back to the swap station and make a profit. I can't see it to be honest. It might have a future in electric aircraft, ships and trucks but not cars.

@FalkonNightsdale 2 года назад

@Ross Radford You take into account only transport (and even that you simplify, as hauling fluids or powders is way different than hauling solid objects) - but you are not going to summon those batteries from thin air - both at the beginning and end of their use, there has to be a foundry, smellting them, which in case of alumininium means A LOT of energy…

@jellevm 2 года назад

@@FalkonNightsdale Yeah the energy cost for the recycling becomes the main issue. It'll come down to comparing the cost of extracting and refining oil, and mining and smelting aluminium.

@TheControlPhilosopher 2 года назад

I've posted a reply that addresses this. Unlike the US, India has vast surplus of labour that is always looking for any kind of work.

@HorzaPanda 2 года назад

@@jellevm Yep, what's the energy efficiency of smelting aluminium, turning it into a battery, transport, then recycling it into a new battery again compared to just charging a normal battery? My gut feeling is it'll probably be similar to hydrogen. But also, agree with others, with such a high energy density this might fit in perfectly in bigger applications, like short-haul aeroplanes

@lilcourtny08 2 года назад

@@TheControlPhilosopher cheap slave labor, will never work in the US

@alsmith358 2 года назад

The non-rechargeable aspect makes it DOA, no? What happens to the batteries once they're full discharged? Do they have to be melted down/recycled to make a new one? This doesn't seem eco-friendly or economically viable AT ALL.

@ericzaiz8358 2 года назад

Think of it as less as a Gas full up and more of an Oil Change. So once every 2 to 4 months depending driving needs. Also with how the materials are made are far more clearer and recycle friendly then Lith-Ions. Aliuminun and Sliver are at 90 percent recycle as we speak so its not that bad.

@nuxis351 2 года назад

@@ericzaiz8358 we're not talking about recycling aluminum, but converting aluminum trihydroxide back into aluminum which takes a HUGE amount of energy. This isn't a free lunch or more green compared to lithium, this energy intensive process has to happen every 3 times you would charge a model 3 according to this video.

@alsmith358 2 года назад

@@ericzaiz8358 If these batteries need to be replaced every 1,000 miles, you would need 1,000 battery swaps to equal Tesla's next gen 1,000,000 mile battery or about 500 swaps to equal current gen. That's a lot of energy spent recycling.

@trelldavis09 2 года назад

Recycling aluminum trihydroxide back to aluminum probably is energy intensive. It would be a simple fix to pair these with renewables like wind and solar that produce too much energy at times. It’s a good idea for a spare range booster that can support 50-100 miles. Then for trips swap out the spare for a larger battery. The Frunk would even be a great place for it. Would make a ton of sense if, the tech can get to the point where the only thing that needs to be recycled is the aluminum plate and the electrolyte, and not the entire battery pack/structure.

@qwqw100 2 года назад

Just replace one when you are low! Or just carry it in your car! So damn easy.. love it!

@cosmicerror2924 2 года назад

I feel like using these in combination with lithium batteries could help with range anxiety but still maintain easy use/recharging for short distances, and the replaceable aluminum batteries would be great to add range or for more remote applications where charging might be impossible or inconvenient. Plus if the battery swaps could be done quickly there would be no major downside over fossil fuel cars (aside from the new infrastructure for batteries).

@w8stral Год назад

Apparently you missed the fact it loses all its charge quickly.... Though MIT with an oil based electrolyte partially solved the problem as long as you changed it out every once in a while.

@magnetospin 2 года назад

In regard to running out of power: you simply keep two, or more, batteries in the car and use them sequentially. You replace a battery once it's empty thus ensuring you always have power.

@jsmxwll 2 года назад

In Taiwan we have scooters where you swap the battery at charging stations at convenience stores. Feels sorta similar. As long as they are relatively convenient, then I'm game.

@002tar 2 года назад

NIO is doing that with cars in China

@staciemosier Год назад

Great info! Thanks!

@AsadAaliii18 2 года назад

This is some good stuff ..thanks for such a detailed video

@Knights_of_Zurg 2 года назад

No, one of the biggest advantages of EV's is the ability to plug it in at night and wake up to a charged battery. These require swapping, which keeps you dependent on the battery supplier, and the locations that can do that work.

@shaun4772 2 года назад

If you drive an ICE vehicle, you're already dependent on your gasoline provider; and given that these batteries can be swapped out in three minutes, it shouldn't be difficult to design an interface that would allow an owner to swap a battery out at home. I can change the 12V battery under the hood in my truck in under ten minutes, and that's not a process that was engineered specifically for user friendliness.

@volodumurkalunyak4651 2 года назад

@@shaun4772 gasoline and diesel fuel aren't vehicle-specific like aluminum electrodes can be. With a Audi gas car you don't have to (and also can't, Audi doesn't sell gas) go to Audi for gas. If there would be an Audi car with Al-air battery you may be forced to go to Audi for replacing single-use batteries (for example non-standart cell dimensions). That is way inferior than both current cas cars and current electic cars.

@bugfeatures 2 года назад

Not everybody has a house with and garage.. so thats only an advantage for maybe 30% of people

@LG123ABC 2 года назад

@@volodumurkalunyak4651 That's why the auto manufacturers need to get together and agree on standard battery types. If I buy an electronic device that runs on AA batteries it doesn't matter if the device was manufactured by Sony or Toshiba because the manufacturers all agreed on standardized battery types a long time ago.

@amconsole 2 года назад

@@shaun4772 that’s kind of the point. If You still drive an ICE car, You’re used to the cost and inconvenience of having to go to the filling station. Just the materials and production of such a single use battery pack would cost more than the $50 equivalent kWh one needs for a 1000mi trip in a lithium battery pack EV. It might be cheaper than loading Your trunk with single use AA batteries, and then replacing them every 1000mi, but there’s a reason pretty much none of the electronics You use runs on single use batteries anymore. It’s just cheaper and more convenient to be able to plug them in and recharge.

@basicnpcc 2 года назад

In my opinion, battery swapping is arguably better than waiting 30+min for an EV to recharge. In fact, it could even be faster than normal gas refueling. As long as it is economically viable (and not environmentally terrible) to recycle or reuse the batteries somehow, it would not be an issue for me. In fact, I'd welcome our change to the green future and likely look at buying one of those cars.

@LG123ABC 2 года назад

@@rogerstarkey5390 Naysayers are boring. You should get another hobby.

@basicnpcc 2 года назад

@@rogerstarkey5390 Sounds like you don't understand the notion of incremental change. Any solution better than every driver burning fossil fuels and releasing massive amounts of CO2 is better than nothing in my eyes. Your notion of a 'fantasy land where no compromise can be made' will get absolutely nowhere in the real world mate.

@basicnpcc 2 года назад

@@rogerstarkey5390 Again mate, you don't understand incremental change. If people like you ran the world, nothing would ever improve since we'd always be 15 years away from the perfect solution.

@LG123ABC 2 года назад

@@rogerstarkey5390 Logically, we shouldn't have put men on the moon. But I'm glad that we did.

@samsawesomeminecraft 2 года назад

I love the idea of battery swapping. When I tried to implement battery swapping in an engineering videogame (Space Engineers), I ran into the issue of (1) the tracking and control mechanisms to make sure the valuable, discharged battery isn't lost were larger than the size of a car, and (2) there was a rather rough clearance issue that made it very difficult to insert and remove the battery because of its size and weight.

@joshhiggs7487 2 года назад

I made one like this in high-school and was amazed and the issue I mainly faces was sawping it out with hot and cold Temps it was getting deformed as well when the alkaline process began it was eating its self a bit and leaking but I went back and a inner plastic case worked better but needed to be a special plastic and the pumping the water would definitely work you would need a filter in that process and to solve the changing battery issue it see if you can do something with the aluminum so that it's like most modern batteries in cars

@22bizbee 2 года назад

90% of the time you don’t need anywhere near the range of your ev. It would be interesting to see something like this available as an addition you could add on to your current ev when you are going on a road trip. Swing by the charging station for a bag of ice, beer, and a battery for the weekend trip.

@Enderlad 2 года назад

This is a great idea

@SebastianSchleussner 2 года назад

@@truantray They still have landfills where you live?

@jimurrata6785 2 года назад

This is not a battery as much as it is a fuel cell. You're 'recharging' it with more than electrons. It's a 'battery' in that it incorporates multiple cells.

@peterjf7723 2 года назад

It is a non rechargeable battery. Once used up you have to recycle it.

@jonathanodude6660 2 года назад

@@peterjf7723 the oxidiser is not stored in it, thus it cant be a battery. its a fuel cell.

@internetdumbass 2 года назад

"battery" means an array of cells. it's definitionally a battery, in the same way we call non rechargeable AA batteries batteries, but i get where you're coming from.

@jonathanodude6660 2 года назад

@@internetdumbass non-rechargeable AA batteries are batteries though? their components arent replenished because theyre stored in the battery. unless we are now saying that an array of fuel cells is still a battery?

@danielwalker5088 2 года назад

@@internetdumbass bsttery a container consisting of one or more cells, in which chemical energy is converted into electricity and used as a source of power.

@SvenReinck 2 года назад

Really interesting to hear what alternatives are there on the battery market 👍

@musabelamin2747 2 года назад

thanks for beneficial Info

@maxxod1 2 года назад

The one battery I haven’t heard much about is the graphene-aluminum. From a glance it looks interesting but it’s still in R+D. Wouldn’t mind hearing more about it.

@Homegaarden 2 года назад

From what I’ve heard, we still haven’t figured out how to “mass produce” graphene. We can’t even produce graphene in a lab with high repeatability

@fex144 2 года назад

Graphene seems quite a ways off.

@maxxod1 2 года назад

@@Homegaarden They have produced large quantities of graphene reliably, just not large sheets. Probably what you meant but just wanted to clarify.

@user-hc9qv9yb9m 2 года назад

@@Homegaarden a printer perhaps?

@raam1666 2 года назад

@@apple1231230 So just mass produce not at scale and sell it as a valuable commodity....

@cavemaneca 2 года назад

I wonder if the energy density of alu-air batteries is high enough to make electric commercial air travel feasible? Airports can be better set up with battery swapping infrastructure, and generally the energy requirements for a specific flight are calculated beforehand so they'd only load what they would need.

@RyanTosh 2 года назад

1. Make planes use aluminum batteries 2. Make planes use AI 3. Make the rest of the world use AI, making humans redundant 4. Remove passenger space on planes 5. Fill with more batteries 6. Use human blood as electrolyte 7. ??? 8. Profit

@seekerofthetruths 2 года назад

Battery swapping has been suggested for Li batteries too, as a way to overcome charge times. Kinda like going to the gas station and swapping out your propane grill tank rather than having it filled. I think having an emergency reserve Li battery on your Al battery car could be viable. I mostly worry about the waste coming from a non rechargeable battery myself.

@sirt8684 2 года назад

Battery swaps have to be the future...

@nujjigram Год назад

@@sirt8684 why? At 150kw charging speed, i can get a 200mi top up in 10 mins. That's definitely faster than the time i have to use the washroom have a coffee and come back

@sirt8684 Год назад

@@nujjigram Why ? Because I,like most people, don’t want to wait. That’s why…. And, extra removable batteries are just Iike jerry cans ( for those of us who do one distances ) Also, swaps allow for later battery tech. L.I. Batteries are like B&W TV in the 50’s. One generation after radio, and one generation before colour. Have you ever seen how a full battery swap is done on a Tesla for $24,000 USD ? Stupidest idea ever

@nujjigram Год назад

@@sirt8684 while most people like yourself don't "want" to wait, it's been shown that most people do end up spending close to 40 mins at any stop. Very few people exist like myself that spend less than 10 mins at a stop, provided i even stop at all since i do drive 400mi without any breaks at high speeds. Nio car battery swapping network showed that there is a under utilisation of their battery swapping stations because their customers just plug in since it's just easier to plug in and go have a break than spending additional 5 mins to complete the swap before/after taking the break. The tech to swap batteries should exist along side gas/LFP and even hydrogen m it's all gonna be working together for different purposes If you have a different purpose than me, you will choose the tech that benefits you the most

@sirt8684 Год назад

@@nujjigram Thats where you are wrong... All current research stats on PHEV shows people do not want to wait - they are not being chared... PHEV are being considered to be banned

@russelloppenheimer3970 2 года назад

The biggest advantage I see to this tech is actually what is currently considered its drawback, recharging. One huge issue with current electric cars is all the time you have to spend waiting for recharge during long trips. By forcing battery swaps, this eliminates that. So long as swaps can be done in similar time it takes to pump a full tank (and infrastructure of battery swap stations), eliminates range anxiety.

@peterbrown6610 2 года назад

No recharge, no regenerative braking one of the things that makes EVS so efficient.

@nosslived 2 года назад

So make it a hybrid solution, just as gas/electric hybrids have been for the past 15 years.

@thebrowns5337 2 года назад

But the range...Teslas can only manage 370miles despite regenerative tech. This aluminium battery is a 700% boost without it. Regenerative tech is also one morething that can degrade and need replacing...using resources and costing money. Swings and roundabouts really.

@peterbrown6610 2 года назад

@@nosslived perhaps a super capacitor ... That would work. I still like recharging in my garage ... But I can see how cool this would be in the city with limited charging availability.

@raam1666 2 года назад

What are you talking about? We use ultra-capacitors for regen braking, not the batteries themselves.

@RyanTosh 2 года назад

Combining this with a smaller lithium ion battery was one option mentioned in the video, and one that I think would be really promising. Recharge the lithium battery every night for ordinary driving to work and back, and use that for regenerative braking, and for longer trips start drawing from the aluminum battery instead.

@randynovick7972 2 года назад

"These batteries aren't rechargeable." - well, there's your problem, right there. In a flashlight, that's not a big deal. In a car, it is. Too good to be true? Nope. It's just not good at all.

@Rakstawr 2 года назад

Unless we are talking using this to supplement rechargable systems that aren't as efficient. Think of using this tech as your gas can in the back rather than the main tank

@joshcryer 2 года назад

As another commentator said, but his comment was buried in the top comment thread, this is definitely something an oil company would come up with and invest in. Their whole market is having people buy "their" fuel. Electricity comes from all manners of markets and generators (and in some cases if you have solar, you can generate it yourself). "Fuel" (gasoline/oil) comes from a central conglomerate. They can't think beyond that.

@joelau2383 2 года назад

@@Rakstawr The problem is you don't pull your large tank out to refill it, so nobody want to pull a large object out to refill it, no matter a can, tank or battery.

@vinodhiyer7229 2 года назад

The aluminium air battery can be used to extend the range of a lithium ion battery. Lithium can take you inter city, imagine going across Delhi to Mumbai with just one aluminium air battery supporting the lithium.

@ricks6250 2 года назад

That's a misunderstanding. They aren't "rechargeable" but they're entirely recycleable. The aluminum doesn't disappear when it "degrades" it just changes to a powder in a solution. The batteries can be "recharged" by just melting the aluminum back together in a factory setting.

@manwgr8handsnca 2 года назад

Hello Matt, I'm wondering if some type of piezoelectric applications have ever been considered as a type of Battery assist?

@dineshkumar-go9mb 2 года назад

Matt sir, very interesting video. Thanks. Have a nice day.

@GET2222 2 года назад

Man… after 65,000 miles on my 2016 model X, I love my permanent battery. Battery swapping seems like such a waste of materials, transport and time. Charging my battery to 80% every night since 2016 and I have seen little to no degradation. I still get 267 miles today, just like I did back in 2016. If this is any indication, I can easily see my Model X going to 300,000 to 500,000 miles in 10-15 years and by that time batteries will be way more dense and less expensive. JB Strobel said recently the TESLA engines should go a million miles. He went on to say, “they’re electric, there’s not much to them and should go 1 million miles”.

@malcolm_in_the_middle 2 года назад

That's fine, but most of the concern is about road trips, not intra-city commutes. Your 267 mile range is not much good if you need to travel 600 miles. That's where the advantage of battery swapping comes in, as it can give a very quick turnaround time.

@SirBalageG 2 года назад

Not to mention not everybody has 60-100k disposable savings to blow it on a car

@jonathanodude6660 2 года назад

@@SirBalageG isnt that why financing exists?

@justinfowler2857 2 года назад

@Joe Shumo I'm sure you're cool with the billions of dollars in subsidies to multibillionaire oil companies every year.

@Misophist 2 года назад

@Joe Shumo Cars in general are no longer feasible for efficient moving. Moving around and owning 2 metric tons of toxic waste, that sits around about 20 out of 24 hours corrugating unused is the epitome of uselessness & inefficiency. And it has been made possible by constant subsidies in roads by the American tax payer. To an amount of about 1.000.000 times of what has been put into EVs so far. And, remember: you might cut your amount of subsidaries to EVs by not buying a car, which gives you a choice, which you can't say about taxes routed into road construction.

@maximthemagnificent 2 года назад

Most people's driving patterns make the hybrid of a small day-to-day lithium battery coupled with a swappable aluminum-air battery for the occasional long range trip logical.

@ripLunarBirdCLH 2 года назад

True. Especially if aluminum-air battery packs would be modular and relatively small, small enough to be carried by a single person with ease.

@4203105 2 года назад

Or just quick-charge that "small" day-to-day lithium battery on your occasional long range trips and don't waste a ton of space in your car...

@lexslate2476 2 года назад

Put a power hookup in the trunk, stick a self-contained aluminum power pack in there for a long trip.

@theview613 2 года назад

Excellent idea.

@hefftoneGA 2 года назад

Longer trips are prone to have more cargo, so some alternative mounting solution would be handy.

@bohicajohnson7203 2 года назад

Hey I have a 1000 mile diesel battery. Easier to replace the diesel than add another chunk of aluminium. Is this a battery? Or a fuel cells. DO they regen?

@tomaszbudnik521 2 года назад

battery swap seems for me a better solution than hours spent on charging station. Biggest issue is cost. If cost for 1kWh of energy will be lower than for current batteries than metal air batteries are winner. if not than we will still wait for something like solid state batteries hoping they will be better than current ones.

@KenricBird 2 года назад

Easy solution to running out of charge in the road: All EVs should have a universal port that allows you to plug in an external battery. The chemistry and build for the battery shouldn't matter, just the output voltage and current potential. So any given tow company can just bring you a single use battery to plug in. Or you carry one from any of numerous manufacturers, in your car, like a you would a gas can. It could even be rechargable in a standard 110 outlet. Like those portable "generator" battery banks.

@fatguyalwayseats 2 года назад

There would have to be some type of regulation. Battery composition effects discharge capability. On top of that it would be difficult for the bms to monitor a different battery. Also thermal management would be an issue. There is probably more but that's a good start. Like the idea though.

@boulderbash19700209 2 года назад

Make it two banks. If one is run out of juice, the other take over. So you buy anew one to replace the dead one.

@boulderbash19700209 2 года назад

@@fatguyalwayseats Do we need more regulation? Drycell battery didn't. Its various forms are the result of prevailing designs, weeded out by market forces. The same as usb ports, tyre sizes, water gallon shapes, etc.

@KenricBird 2 года назад

@@fatguyalwayseats a certain level of regulation would be necessary. There would need to be specifications met as with any universal device. You could easily standardize BMS output signal and pipe that back to the car over the power cable. I'm not sure cooling would be a significant issue for smaller banks, but then I don't know what kind of wattage is needed to move a car.

@fatguyalwayseats 2 года назад

@@KenricBird from what I've seen and worked on, approximately 400 volt battery packs are pretty standard for passenger vehicles and a discharge rate of up to 900 amps. I haven't worked on larger trucks but I could see them using up to 800 volts and not sure about discharge rate.

@Desarrolladorweb 2 года назад

if all the "battery" stations sell a compatible cell like it is now with the fuel stations, then I will don't mind to make the swap, we already do it on a fuel station

@LG123ABC 2 года назад

@@rogerstarkey5390 I'd say something that can fit a Fiat 500e -- which I think has a 24 kWh battery pack.

@rickway2039 2 года назад

What if instead of getting batteries from a gas station, you subscribed to a battery service and had fresh batteries delivered to your door as soon as you hit 25% (or earlier of you're planning a road trip).

@thebrowns5337 2 года назад

@@rogerstarkey5390 a city car may require one battery a luxury saloon may need two. Same swapping station. No problem.

@excillisbank2611 2 года назад

Magnifique vidéo ! merci

@stanislasbertrand8679 2 года назад

What about the efficiency aspect compared to lithium? How much energy goes it need to make the battery again aka the aluminum? How much energy is extracted while the battery is on use?

@justinpeterson7246 2 года назад

Now that I have experienced the ease and comfort of plugging in at home I will never go to any place to recharge, refuel, replace again. For those who do not yet understand the ease of at home refueling or who live in an apartment and cannot plug in at home then this might be viable.

@wallykramer7566 2 года назад

This is one of the most "different" battery technologies I have seen! It provides a distinct choice of advantages and constraints. No doubt that means it is highly desirable in some applications and not-a-starter for others. The key variable completely missing from this summary is battery cost. Is a replacement 60 kwh aluminum-air battery a $35 item, or is it $3000?

@A-tech 2 года назад

if its just replacing the aluminium it could be $35

@seb3090 2 года назад

It's a dumb idea on a thermodynamics level. As essentially this battery turns Al into AlO (actually a hydroxide, but this is dehydrated to alumina before conversion back to Al metal), and you can therefore never get more energy out of the battery that it costs to make it. Al -> AlO releases a maximum energy which is the minimum energy to convert AlO -> Al. Add on the hugely inefficient Al electrolysis (no more than 40% efficient; 250% of stored energy in battery to produce battery) and you've got a huge cost to produce the batteries (even assuming you can just cast the Al electrodes, else further manufacturing is required and therefore much lower efficiency) for very limited benefit. Transporting batteries around (to changing stations) is again another expense on the energy calculator. Basic thermodynamics show these to be dumb ideas that can never do anything like they claim. If you can make it easy (90% or above efficiency) to convert the used metal oxides back to useable metal, then these would be more useful, but when you are wasting more energy than you get out to produce the battery you've just created more problems. Why does no one understand thermodynamics?

@hamzahabugosh 2 года назад

At economies of scale and recycling id assume the cost would be lowered but idk

@seb3090 2 года назад

@@hamzahabugosh Not really, we already have the scale of aluminium hydroxide dehydration (the Bayer process) and electrolysis of the resulting alumina (the Hall-Héroult process) which is what this 'recycling' needs. We've been looking for cheaper and easier methods of reducing alumina for centuries and that's the best we've got. That's what this process requires, because the output is aluminium hydroxide. If there is a more efficient method for producing Al metal from Al oxides and hydroxides I'm absolutely certain you would be extremely rich if you can find it.

@DukenukemX 2 года назад

@@seb3090 Seriously, this right here. Transporting aluminum and making aluminum is more energy than the 5% loss you get from the grid. Not to mention we're going to increase the cost of aluminum which is needed to make new vehicles.

@rahulsahu5025 2 года назад

We can use combination of Li-Ion as main battery and Aluminum Air battery as power bank. Or Aluminum Air battery as main battery and Li-Ion as a backup battery. With this approach, we can avoid cons of both batteries with only 1 major disadvantage which is cost.

@jeffgilleese6332 2 года назад

They sound perfect for a recharge pack for li-ion powered cars stuck on the side of the road. Just make auxiliary power connectors in the cars standard for receiving one of these packs. Then tow trucks and road side assistance vehicles could just have a bunch of these to help people get home or to a recharge station.

@omega52390 2 года назад

I think these would be good as an add-on system. where you have traditional lion batteries for daily use and a spot to slot one or two of these packs in for long road trips

@Stratus41298 2 года назад

Yeah, that's honestly the best of both worlds. Can even have an auto swap-over system or something.

@Diablokiller999 2 года назад

I was so glad when I discovered rechargeable batteries as a kid, never had to buy new batteries for my Game Boy again and still doing this for all my wireless Gamepads, Remotes and other stuff because I hate swapping batteries and the need to buy new ones.....now this should become a trend in cars again? I don't know, one of the major advantages for me in BEV is the possibility to load it with my own generated electricity froma solar cell - never pay for driving your car again. Think the biggest problem will be to get this into market, I don't think that many solution for BEV could co-exist and recharging is, in my opinion, still the easiest one.

@volvo09 2 года назад

Yes, i was obsessed with rechargeables as a kid, thought they were so cool. I remember asking for a radio shack charger and pack of batteries for my birthday! I was so excited, hahaha This concept looks like an "investment pitch" more than anything else. It's not even viable for stationary backup. And with silver being a component, how much would this cost? It sounds like a consumable fuel cell. Without being cheap and easy to find as dirt, and as easily recycleable as a lead acid battery, this is pretty much pointless aside from a few niche things. Everyday me and you? No way.

@clown134 2 года назад

i remember being extremely dissapointed with the rechargables that were around pre-lithium. they had all those problems with battery memory and stuff it turned me off from rechargables for a really long time until i got into vaping and realized how good the lithium batteries are, i just wish they were ethically sourced

@Diablokiller999 2 года назад

@@clown134 Maybe you should've looked again after some years, NiMH batteries don't have memory effects anymore and also the capacity improved (Sanyo Eneloop). Main issue is still the lower voltage compared to batteries (1.3V vs 1.5V), most of my devices last around 20% less than with normal alkaline batteries but that's something I accept for the luxury of recharging and saving a lot of money.

@seankenny2153 2 года назад

Battery swapping stations has been suggested as the new petrol/gas/filling station model, even for lithium batteries due to the time required to recharge. In countries where it is not uncommon to drive 1,000 klms (600 miles) in a day this is probably the answer.

@davesworld7961 2 года назад

Seems like this might work best in a suitcase form factor. Put it in your trunk or the car maker would have an extra battery storage compartment built into the vehicle and have a port where it can plug into your power supply for longer trips but most of the time you wouldn't even use it.

@livetrades4086 2 года назад

This can be an excellent range extender for Lithium-ion EVs. You can build 4X more teslas with 80-100 mile range with smaller, much cheaper, Lithium-ion batteries for daily driving and have a backup aluminum-air battery for occasional road trips. This will be a game-changer for EVS.

@SuperGreyfox99 2 года назад

So if the batteries on your tesla fail you get to replace 2 expensive batteries. LOL Think forward a bit.

@TheSandkastenverbot 2 года назад

@@SuperGreyfox99 Read more carefully a bit

@DIYBill 2 года назад

Shouldn’t it be the other way round ? Aluminum air batts for daily use and swapping when it’s down. Lithium ion as a secondary battery to help you get to the nearest swapping station.

@Panda_Gibs 2 года назад

@@DIYBill Modern cars are smart. I'm sure they could automatically choose how to do this balancing act while leaving suitable reserve.

@namAehT 2 года назад

As it stands with existing charging infrastructure and battery tech, a Tesla Mode 3 LR can go basically anywhere in the US with a 20 minute charging break every 2-3 hours. When I realized that _we're already there_ when it comes to EV viability, I placed my order.

@Jason608 2 года назад

Yep. The driver needs a break to use the bathroom and eat anyway, so the charge doesn't really affect travel times on a Tesla. Engineering Explained has an episode where he does something like 1000 miles in one day in his Tesla.

@NaumRusomarov 2 года назад

Nice. Congrats on the new car.

@stevechance150 2 года назад

Wish Tesla had a $25k model.

@SolGuy42 2 года назад

Battery swapping: No

@LG123ABC 2 года назад

Yeah, but you're stuck driving a Tesla.

@tracemiller9628 2 года назад

Their is also wireless charging from the road, where there is a changing cable buried in the road, you cell dillweeds. And there is also libear electromagnetic induction motors using the same platform. But your right, nothings perfect.

@cherylreid2964 2 года назад

An electric 2 seater plane was just flown across the water from the Nth Island to the Sth Island of AotearoaNZL last week 🙌

@CrypticFoxGaming 2 года назад

Swap stations? Seriously? Can you imagine the amount of waste this would generate? Not surprising it’s an oil company pursuing it…

@roy04 2 года назад

depends on how efficient we are at recycling it

@DaveShap 2 года назад

Probably just need to scrape the cathode (or anode?) and resurface.

@Nobody-Nowhere 2 года назад

Sounds more like a solution to industrial applications, like the marine use and shipping container sized batteries.

@lesto12321 2 года назад

you can simply replace the water and add new fresh aluminum, the old water containing the oxidized aluminum, that can be smelted back. And we already have big aluminum recycling center since it is way cheaper than making new one and the material does not degrade. Not sure how this translate in reality, but to me sound like recycling the battery would be cheaper than making a new one

@Evan_Springer 2 года назад

Aluminum is one of the few resources where it's actually worth it to recycle it vs electrolysis of new Aluminum

@BraveRock 2 года назад

This would be perfect for the Renault Morphoz. It’s a concept car that has a normal lithium battery for driving around town, but the car can expand to fit an additional larger battery for long distance driving.

@SpeedyNautilus 2 года назад

That's what I thought. This sounds like the perfect supplement for a car that fits in the category of the Leaf or Morphoz. 40-80 ish mile range for driving around town, and when you want to take a trip you pop one of these in the back to keep you topped up until you arrive at your destination.

@paulvangorp8621 2 года назад

He said it is not rechargable so forget it being a energie saving sollution. 6:19 So not a good battery.

@BraveRock 2 года назад

@@paulvangorp8621 that’s what makes it a perfect solution for a battery that is only borrowed for long distance travel.

@paulvangorp2674 2 года назад

@@BraveRock it doesn't make any sense how you want to have a baterie that is at least 30% energie efficiënt when you need to replace parts. It will be way to expensive.

@dannyb9223 2 года назад

Bauxite! I first learned about Bauxite from playing Gregtech, a Minecraft mod. It's pretty fun. You have to electrolyze Bauxite to get the aluminum out of it, yielding lots of hydrogen and oxygen. It also gives you small amounts of Rutile, a mineral containing Titanium (which is quite challenging to process). But a search on Wikipedia shows Bauxite doesn't contain any Rutile; instead, it contains Gallium, something rare and vital for making circuits in Gregtech.

@jorgemach___2162 Год назад

yes swop is a good idea .Just have a think you can pick up a few extra batteries for that rainy day. .or late for work and don't have time to lineup at the gas station for a pack replacement just use the extra one you purchased earlier and get to work on time

@nathanbroadbent4950 2 года назад

I can see it as an add-on when you’re going on super long road trips were you might be far away from charging stations doing some back country driving. Think cyber truck Boondocking. But the ability to recharge at home with your own solar panels is definitely a big attraction for rechargeable batteries for me.

@Robothut 2 года назад

If they just add a "reserve battery" that is good for say 50 miles of driving then swapping out the main battery when it goes dead is not a problem.

@flinx 2 года назад

For cars braking and going downhill a small rechargeable battery can store that energy. A few to several kWh battery would handle that most of the time. When the aluminum-air battery nears depletion, software can prevent the rechargeable battery from being drained as much so it stays closer to full in case the big battery get fully depleted. If both batteries run out of power the small one can still be charged up by a rescue truck.

@kaydinlear 2 года назад

@@flinx Exactly A small rechargable battery with good Charge discharge reliability backs up the main for emergencies and regenerative breaking, thus main battery death isn't an issue and you don't need a massive battery.

@lastofthebest5102 2 года назад

So you are advocating using more resources than what would be required in just using current EV's? How would these batteries be delivered, diesel trucks? How about energy required to recycle said batteries?

@flinx 2 года назад

@@lastofthebest5102 resources aren't all equal. That's the appeal of aluminum in a battery because it's relatively abundant and affordable. We'll have to wait and see how much energy is used recycling them compared to staying with rechargeable technology.

@kaydinlear 2 года назад

@@lastofthebest5102 clearly you haven't heard of opportunity cost. The market will decide what is best for each instance. The amount of resources used will be based on the demand, balanced by the cost and availability of the different forms of batteries.

@jesperborgquist89 2 года назад

Hallo there, great video, I think Renault tried it with battery shaping, that didn't go well....

@wardkline935 2 года назад

i could see something like this for a first time buyer, when the 1st battery dies thats the end of a "test run". kind of another way for dealers to ensure repeat business? or...military application for one way R/C vehicles probably short range

@mithrandir491 2 года назад

If the swapping is available at gas stations then it wouldn't be a problem. The fact that there is no waiting to charge the battery is even a plus.

@howdlej123 2 года назад

It would be so much more expensive though to transport and store these batteries at each individual station / rest stop. For example for a rechargeable EV there is no storage or transportation requirement at all, the local power grid provides constant electricity premises, no HGVs, cargo ships or planes transporting these batteries all over to the place on a regular basis. As for Petrol & Diesel, they are liquid which makes it easier to transport than a battery which even if its light, takes up a reasonable amount of volume per unit, mean while liquid fuels and oil can be transported via pipelines. I think the idea is great and might be very useful in specialised industries, as others have mentioned maybe for short flights, trains or buses where batteries can be swapped en mass for multiple vehicles at once and only requires delivering to one location to service many vehicles. But unless it becomes rechargeable I don't see it becoming feasible for the domestic personal transport market as the the transportation of these batteries to swapping stations alone would probably negate any environmental impact these batteries have.

@mithrandir491 2 года назад

@@howdlej123As long as there is a demand, logistics won't be a problem. That was how it started with petrol and diesel vehicles. The need for gas stations, and maintenance services was not apparent at first but as more people started buying gasoline vehicles, the infrastructure supporting them began to emerge. I can tell from my experience that people generally do not like waiting, they want instant gratification at every stage of their lives. Even range anxiety wouldn't matter if there were charging/battery replacement stations every few blocks.

@howdlej123 2 года назад

@@mithrandir491 My point wasn't that people wouldn't use it, but the logistical side of it negates a lot of the benefit of the environmental benefits of a battery like this and thats the whole point of EV, to be more sustainable. Additionally at least here in the UK, you'd be able to find an EV super charger pretty easily as long as you pay attention to where you're going and think a little before setting off. Also battery anxiety is usually more of an excuse made by people who've never researched or drove an EV before. Average persons daily commute is under 30 mile one way. Most cheap EV have around triple that with options for much higher capacities, especially on more premium models. Most of Europe now has decent enough infrastructure to handle longer distanced commutes. I feel that most EVs have adequate range and very few people are ever actually pushing them to the empty on a regular basis in the domestic market.

@philiphawkins4684 2 года назад

@@mariat5860 would likely be loaded via a robot.

@1voluntaryist 2 года назад

There are two ways range anxiety can disappear, 1. Higher density/longer range, e.g., Aptera's 1000 mile range achieved by a paradigm efficiency. 2. Shorter charge time. Both are happening

@christopherpedersen1820 2 года назад

Why do you ignore that this is an explicit greenhouse gas emitting process if you recycle the batteries? You act like there is a mystery around turning aluminum hydroxide back into Aluminum. There is none. It's a process that is done when Aluminum is mined. In the end you end up using the Hall-Héroult process which releases CO2. I thought our whole goal was to avoid CO2 emissions?

@wcoenen 2 года назад

This is a good point. An alternative smelting method which does not emit CO2, referred to as "inert anode", does exist. But presumably that is more expensive and not what Indian aluminum smelters are currently doing.

@dakotadorsey2294 2 года назад

I could see this being really popular with the U.S. military for vehicles, aircraft and fobs. A long lasting battery that could be swapped in just a couple of minutes could probably replace things like diesel generators, if the price per kw/h was cheaper of course.

@SkepticalCaveman 2 года назад

The only use of aluminium air batteries is as a replacement for emergency generators. Battery degradation have to be fixed though.

@ChrisBigBad 2 года назад

If they don't have to last long after initial activation, then they can probably just come sealed. "Just add water!" Like hearing-aid batteries. Those are something-air-cells, too. And those, too, have great energy density. and those, too, will simply die within 2 weeks (ish?) with or without being used. If you have a non-stop emergency, you'll have different problems anyway.

@MarcusHouse 2 года назад

Batteries that aren't rechargeable... yep... that is realllly going to take off.

@_PatrickO 2 года назад

Your plane will take off once. This truly feels like an april fools joke.

@slavko321 2 года назад

LFP FTW!

@birphon 2 года назад

I mean its not rechargeable but its recyclable. So its more akin to swapping out your gas can for your BBQ

@lilcourtny08 2 года назад

@@birphon it will cost too much and not practical. Its a waste of money. Non rechargeable batteries that will be very expensive to replace. Every gas station would require a massive warehouse to store replacements.

@drunkcat1713 2 года назад

But mr Big Brain those batteries gives u 7x the range per swap 🙄

@ferdinandhendriks3507 2 года назад

It could be a nice range-extender for low range lithium ev’s going on an occasional long trip. But it does become less interesting when 600kw quickcharging is the norm.