F-15 vs MiG-21 - The Closest Call, Lebanon 1982 

True, it's a well known incident. And it was a Skyhawk.

I worked for the pilot of the F-15 you mentioned. Crazy story to hear first hand .

@@waterboy4056 Talk about a great cocktail party story. You've had an interesting career.

The pilot would go on to say he hadn't even known that his wing was ripped off, and that if he knew in the moment that it happened, he would've surely ejected.

I believe you but it doesn't make alot of sense to me that he didn't know about his wing. He was forced to land at almost twice the normal speed. Wouldn't he think that something extremely unusual was the cause? Plus, he knew he had a mid-air so he had to suspect major damage. Between there probably being other planes in the air and ground observers (including the tower at his field) there were probably those who were able to inform him of the problem. @@epi_dormania2273

True. It almost worked here twice.

Yup exactly what I was going to reference was Vietnam. However the main problem in the Syrians trying to use this tactic now is back in Vietnam this was used against Thuds and Phantoms. Quite a bit less powerful and capable than the Eagle.

Look down, shoot down radar on F-15 did well plus they had early radar warning

اسمعي لابد من تدمير اسرايل. وكل الابد

@@user-gm5wf8dm8m If only that were possible. Our job should be to contain them to prevent further growth and preserve the nation state to prevent their one world government

It often takes a lot of tries to get it at least remotely close to how it is described in the sources :) The MiGs have Atolls here. It is possible that some of them had R60 during this conflict but I think mostly it was the older type. They were probably painted the same as AIM-9. Also, they say that parts were interchangeable between them :)

There were actually multiple eagles "damaged" (shot down) in Lebanon. The odds of damaging it over and over without a kill is low.

They are R 13Ms just more modern AA2 (also called advanced atoll) about comparable to AIM 9Gs

@@markingraham4892apparently they damaged only 2 F-15 out of 90 Israeli aircraft

That's true. Their chances were not great (end even before this war, they tried and results were bad for them)

So our Syrian Brave pilots knew that their planes were incapable although they were brave enough to challenge and fight to the death

@@raptor-syria4551 - Braveness alone could not defy the laws of physics.

They had no choice; refuse the mission and you'll disappear forever, accept the mission and you have a chance to survive if you eject on time. The bad thing for me is that I was about 9 y/o at the time and completely oblivious to what was happening. Maybe if I go there now, I could find some Mig 21 wreckage? 😁

82-0, as it should be. Syrian pilots fighting for a genocidal dictator got what they drsrved. Good riddance.

Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for commenting!

You might be surprised to learn how many tricks I have to use to get some of these scenes even remotely close to the historical :) Thanks for the comment!

🤮🤮🤮🤮😪😪😷😷🤒🤒😖😖

@@showtime112 Love your videos

@@1olddirtroad Thanks for your support!

Glad you appreciate it!

Thank you very much, I'm glad you appreciate them!

So, you just like the cinematics? 😁😁😁

@@showtime112 I like many things, but most of all I like your attention to the story and details - the effort needs to be recognized. 👍🏻 I only got to taste a little bit of DCS on my computer, but it was very laggy and about 0.2 fps on good days (1.2.16 works pretty well, though), so I live my pilot alter ego through channels such as yours. Also, I'm only interested in fun aspect of the game - multiplayer colaboration being on top of that list. But, that's OT. 🤭 Cheers!

Hvala na pozitivnom komentaru!

Thank you for the very positive feedback! I try to be as neutral and objective as possible. But still, some find me biased 🙃

@showtime112 No matter how you make it, there will always someone saying you are biased. You are doing a really great work.

@@Danko05 Thanks for that!

Thank you for your comment! Keep watching!

Who is guilty ? As of today the Syrian government still refuses to recognize the right to exist to the State of Israel. They continue to believe that Israel will be eradicated one day.

Thanks again!

Thanks for the feedback and opinion. You could say that the late variants of MiG-21 were not obsolete on some average level of early 1980s. Against most air forces of the world, they were quite useful But against the latest 4th generation fighters, I think they were next to useless. Not only in this conflict, in the Iran-Iraq War MiG-21 could only fight well against F-5s while suffering badly against F-14 and even F-4.

Nice to hear, thanks!

It sure is. I can recommend it to anyone interested in the subject.

I believe that was the day when one of the most intense air combats happened with modern jets. I was spending my weekend in the Bekaa valley at my in-laws and was able to watch the whole thing from the ground. All we saw was Syrian planes dropping down everywhere. They lost 82 fighter jets and none for Israel. One of the Syrian pilots landed meters away from us and got stuck on an electric pole until the Syrian army came and rescued him. It was a chaotic and scary situation to say the least. The air battle lasted less than 20 minutes for all that loss on the Syrian side. This story brings memories of the most intense moments in my life.

@@rafkend1422 Well, this experience must have been traumatic but then again, you had the front row seat to an extraordinary historical event. Thanks for sharing it!

Thanks for your comment!

ECM matters...

@@user-qn3xu5ee3t : Definitely, you almost can’t spend too much money on it.

Thank you for this positive feedback!

Thanks! Python is not available in DCS so it's represented by AIM-9L. There are three F-15 kills credited to AIM-9G in 1979. and 1980. In fact, on 31 December 1980, one kill was credited to AIM-9G and one to Python3. After that, it's all Python3.

Thanks! Dogfights were the direct inspiration for this channel, I always felt bad because that show was cancelled after only two seasons. I couldn't find any emergency net mod for DCS. Maybe someone makes it someday.

Thank you very much!

Thanks! It's a tool not specifically designed for this purpose :)

Thank you very much!

That's what a cool, analytical assessment of it looks like :)

Ground control was a radar hidden in a valley (not on a mountain top) and was completely blind as a result, not to mention the jamming from the Israeli side 😆 The poor pilots were on their own.

I'm happy to hear it, thank you!

There could be a similar show in the future but I haven't heard anything about it yet. History channel cancelled Dogfights after two seasons probably because they could make more money on reality shows. This kind of a thinking is probably still very strong.

Thank you very much!

@@showtime112 My pleasure!!

Thanks for the comment!

@@showtime112 You're doing an amazing job! Lots of not so well known, yet interesting encounters are covered - the Venezuela dogfights for example. And getting all this to look right in DCS ain't easy. Keep it up!

Thank you very much for your positive comment!

Oh, there are many people interested in that. Believe me.

I’m not the biggest fan of the welfare and Grifter state of Israel, but I’m always on their side when they are killing off Soviet stooges, better known as the armies of Arab dictatorships.

Glad to hear it, thanks!

I've done a few Vietnam videos. Mind you, there's no map of Vietnam in DCS so you need a bit of imagination. Assets from that era are a bit limited too so I mostly focused on A-4, MiG-21 and Mig-19 because that's what's available. We will get F-8, A-7 and A-6 in the future.

True. I'm just not sure why he didn't launch all of his missiles. I mean, how many more times in your life do you expect the have an F-15 in your sights?!?

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

Bad mistake the Israeli pilot Made. I’m almost in disbelief that he followed the kill down. He’s very lucky he survived.

@@showtime112 : I was just wondering the same thing. But I don’t know if multiple missile launches are even supported by an old MIG 21, I suppose not

@@steveperreira5850 They are. It's just an IR seeker that's completely independent of the radar or other missiles. There was a case in 1973 where a Syrian pilot launched all four missiles at a Phantom and managed to damage it.

Thank you so much 😀

Thanks for commenting!

Thank you very much for your comment!

Thank you very much for another donation!

Sure will, thanks for commenting!

Thanks, I'm glad to hear it!

You fight with what you have, not with what you wish you had.

Thanks one more time. It seems hard to understand the Syrian decision. Maybe it was a political thing. Maybe Assad Senior simply told his generals that withdrawal from Lebanon was not an option. Apart from superior fighters, Israelis were apparently superior in electronic warfare, jamming Syrian radars and comms effectively.

US pilots are trained on ww2 ish era F-80 deriviative...

@@user-qn3xu5ee3t About the F-80 Don't know where you got that information from 🤔? To my knowledge the USAF is currently using the, T-45 Goshawk which is used by the United States Navy as an aircraft carrier-capable trainer, and the Northrop T-38 Talon also a Trainer used for Military Pilots.

@@LockOnNow hm, yes, you're right, the last shooting star retired in 1997

Thanks! I guess it was an oversight by both pilots. Bekaa Valley is surprisingly small and it has mountains on both sides. That probably makes sneaking easier.

@@showtime112 Overall Good video, I was thinking of the MIG 21 tactics against the F4's. Because the RIO in a F4 definitely had problems with ground clutter. My college friend in a Intruder, wouldn't of had a issue according to him.

@@ronaldwatson1951 It also depends on the variant of F-4. Earlier ones had no look down capability. Later versions had it but a lot still depended on RIO skill I think. Not so much help from older computer systems.

@@showtime112 got it thanks

Thank you for your feedback!

Glad to hear it. Keep watching!

True, pilots have much less freedom under that doctrine.

Yes they can, lol. And it's not like us/jewish pilots do whatever they want in the air

Thank you for commenting!

I know about that particular case of F-14 being shot down by a MiG-29, Tom Cooper who actually wrote the book you’ve mentioned told me that MiG-25 could be credited for this kill as well, but it was probably a MiG-29… either way it was an Iraqi jet that shot down the Tomcat. I am also wondering if there were F-15s lost in air combat… The Iraqis for example claimed to have shot down one or two F-15Es with MiG-29s and Americans would always contribute their losses to a SAM… It is quite possible that Americans and their allies are hiding their true losses… For example the Iraqis claim to have shot down an American EF-111 with a Mirage F-1, they even offer a serial number of the downed jet together with date (sometimes in January) and name of the Iraqi pilot, but Americans once again told that their aircraft was shot down from ground and a month or so later than the Iraqis reported (sometime in February)… We also know that a MiG-29 was responsible for damaging USAF EF-111 and B-52, and another EF-111 was damaged by a MiG-23… The Iraqis also claimed to have shot down an RAF Tornado on January 19. but the Brits told they lost that plane few days later due to ground fire… So from “0 losses” reported by the US/Coallition we now know that AT LEAST two planes were shot down and three got damaged… AT LEAST! But this is not the whole story… what about the alleged 35+ air to air victories that the Coallition claimed to have achieved? Here are some interesting examples: At first, they claimed to have destroyed up to nine MiG-29s, but later they lowered this figure to five MiGs, while Iraqis themselves said that three were lost and one got damaged in air combat (all to F-15)… One F-15 pilot (Cezar “Rico” Rodriguez) decribed his engagement with an Iraqi MiG-29 and how he was able to force his opponent to crash into ground… before that, his wingman managed to destroy a MiG-29’s wingman… Turns out, the Iraqi pilot in question was alive and well and later described what really happened - how he managed to pull his aircraft seconds before crashing while evading a missile fired by an F-15 which detonated and allegedly that’s whaf made Americans thing a MiG exploded… What is interesting is that “Rico”, the American pilot, said that he didn’t fire a single shot… Not only that, but the other MiG-29 pilot which was shot down priror to this dogfight (Jameel Sayhood who on the same mission just minutes before brought down a Tornado), in his story said that F-15s targeted him with two missiles and after successfully dodging one of them with high-g maneuvering, he got hit the second missile and was forced to eject (breaking his leg and transfered to hospital by local population)… this is quite possible becase, there was an egagement over Bosnia eight years later in which a pair of USAF F-15s both fired two missiles at a pair of Yugoslav MiG-29s and according to both US and Yu pilots, one missile was dodged but the second one got the job done (this is because in cases of both Iraqi and Serbian pilots they were just to close to their enemies and had insufficient time to react). The other engagement that I would like to point out occurred on January 26., I believe, when four F-15s destroyed, at least, according to official version, three Iraqi MiG-23s… the Iraqis admited the loss of two fighters… once again, before mentioned “Rico” was involved 😅 and if you think this is the end of his suspicious shotdowns, than you are wrong… let me explain: on March 24. 1999. “Rico” and three more F-15s entered Serbian airspace from Albania… Before that, a MiG-29 was sent to patrol at a hight of 3.000-3.500 meters over Kosovo (a province of Serbia that leans on border with Albania) and wait for the enemy… “Rico” and other F-15s were tasked with escorting German Tornados which were heading towards Pristina (a capital city of province of Kosovo)… official story goes that Rodriguez fired a single bvr missile which destroyed this MiG-29… the interesting part of the story is that the MiG pilot later found out that SAM units operating in that area reported to have shot down a Tornado flying at… 3.000 meters! 🤨 Now, while it is possible that American pilot was actually “the one” who shot down a MiG, there are reassons to believe that the MiG-29 was a victim of friendly fire, since there were three to four other Serbian pilots who flew combat sorties that have reported being acquiered by ground radars, and one of them even claimed he was shot down by friendly SAM (this particular kill was officially credited to a Dutch F-16)! My point is that many of the US/NATO claims aren’t valid and they are proven not to be always honest… History is written by the victors, right?

@@flanker8724 Certainly, and militaries have ways of doctoring statistics, like not counting among the losses aircraft that suffered battle damage, made it back to base and then were deemed written-offs. In the case of the F-15, there have been acknowledged 5 losses in combat situations, all of them USAF F-15E Strike Eagles, 2 in Iraq in 1991, 1 in Iraq in 2003, 1 in Afghanistan in 2009 and 1 in Libya in 2011. Of these 5, only one, the second of 1991, looks like a plausible air-to-air kill, and it is interesting that its loss is usually credited to an SA-2 SAM, the same weapon system credited for the F-14 loss on January the 21st, now considered most likely to have been an air-to-air kill. I would however not be the least surprised if there has been some F-15 loss, Israeli most likely, that hasn't been acknowledged so far.

@@maximilianmax6996 I wonder which aircraft could be responsible for F-15E kill… you said MiG-25, but I’ve read on many accounts it was MiG-29… The same goes for that F-14 Tomcat, it is uncertain wether it was MiG-25 or MiG-29…

@@maximilianmax6996 Btw, there was an American pilot back in 2021. I think and he said that during NATO’s bombing campaign of Yugoslavia there was another F-117 hit by a SAM, so now there are two known F-117 victims of Yugoslav SAMs… God knows what else we don’t know about American and Israeli losses in air combat…

@@flanker8724 When it comes to the loss of the second F-15E in 1991, on January 19th, usually it is attributed to an SA-2, but the Air University publication CSAR at Desert Storm also mentions a MiG-25, I have never read about any MiG-29 involved in the particular incident, you can find this very easily online in pdf form, just search air university csar at desert storm. There is also Iraqi TV footage with the crew of the particular aircraft (Eberly and Griffith) available here on youtube, who when asked what sort of weapon shot them down, said they didn't know. As for the damaged F-117 in 1999, this is nowadays a widely known and accepted fact, although it did take some time.

Thanks for commenting!

Yes, nobody can dispute that.

Thanks for contributing info.

Thanks for commenting!

Most pilots flying it probably didn't know about this nickname but whoever came up with this designation could have hardly chosen a dumber one 😁

@@showtime112 i always did wonder how it got its name

Thanks for commenting! With the benefit of hindsight, Assad should have probably not sent any planes but simply retreat from Lebanon. But then again, autocratic leaders can never ever admit a defeat.

It's not about glory.

True. Many will say that engines these days are so reliable that you don't need the second one. In peacetime, sure.

It's actually very easy to find reasons. Inferior avionics, heavy dependence on ground control, inadequate training...

Thanks! The mentioned bases mostly come from books which describe the events. Ramat David is actually present on the Syria map. Tel Nof is more to the south. As for other bases, I remember some book about Israeli Air Force which had a map of air bases but I can't remember which one.

Thanks! Funny, this morning a viewer wrote a comment in another of my videos that said 'why is the graphics so terrible?'. Funny how people can see the same thing so differently.

Damage models in DCS are pretty much simplified compared to reality.

Many lessons learned from earlier conflicts were implemented on the fourth generation. Redundancy, separation of main and backup systems etc.

@@showtime112 cool stuff. I was referring to how rugged and the amount of damage they can take and still fly. I had no idea of this event until watching this video yesterday. Check this one out ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-JVxtJULJ0KA.html

True, one of them collided with an A-4 and came back.

Something like that :)

Maybe they would have succeeded in shooting down an airplane or two. But it probably wouldn't have been a completely different outcome. And they might have lost most of their pilots in the attempt.

From what I heard about the Syrian regime, I'm not surprised to hear it.

It's a very special design, I agree.

There's no An-2 in DCS, unfortunately. Except as a fixed object on airfields.

You might be talking about another incident?

@@showtime112 nope it's the same one . . .

That makes a hell of a lot more sense. I had a hard time believing that an air to air missile hit did not destroy the F15

Two engine configuration certainly is superior in situations like this.

True, Israel used F-15s already in 1979.

Fighting against jets that were 30 years old doesn't make you brave.

@@tareksaleh3259 any aircraft can win in the hands of a competent pilot. Even a 30 year old aircraft. That's why the training is always harder than the real thing. And yes they are brave for flying in enemy territory and defeating MIGs while being shot at by AAA.

MiGs were not exactly 30 years old at the time but still. And it wasn't just MiGs. This was only a few hours after Israeli Air Force attacked the Syrian SAM systems. It probably wasn't 100% clear that the system was neutralized at the time.

@@christianarboleda7872 even when the mig 21 was first used to counter f4 phantoms, it wasn't very successful so putting that thing up against an aircraft that was known for being undefeated and one of the best aircraft of all time is like saying you would win a fight against a spec ops squad with a spoon, no matter how competent you are or skilled, that fight is unwinnable

@@wing19816 tactics play a big role in combat. After Vietnam they came up with new tactics to counter the mig 21s because the F-4 was having a difficult time with the mig 21 in dogfights. After that they figured out how to fight them. Again dogfighting is highly dependent on the pilot's skill and the ability to exploit the enemy's weaknesses.

Exactly!

Unfortunately, details about that don't seem to be available to the same extent.

@@showtime112 F-16s were credited with 44 air to air kills. F-15s were credited with 41 air to air kills and 2 F-15s in return got damaged in battle.

@@265justy Hopefully, Aloni will write a boot about F-16s in Lebanon too. I'm buying it :)

@@showtime112 That would be good. F-16 gets very overlooked. Especially in this war when the F-16 had no long range Sparrows and got all its kills with Sidewinders and cannon.. The F-15 had the advantages off using Sparrows even tough the F-16 got more kills without loss.. Its kinda like the Spitfire and Hurricane. The Spitfire got all the attention and fame in the Battle of Britain when the Hurricane out scored it.. 😉

The F-16, far superiority as a close in combat fighter compared to the F 15, there is no reasonable dispute about this. F-16 is far more maneuverable, far stealthier because of its small size, and you are better off with heat seeking missiles than with unreliable sparrows from this era. The real air superiority Fighter is the F 16. Smaller is better. More is better. But the big military forces in the world still can’t seem to figure that out. Dumb ditty ditty dumb ditty ditty dumb.

Seems like a lot. And yet, I still feel like I can't recreate pilots' description of hundreds of barrels just shooting at the skies and shells exploding all around them. Not just in this case.

@@showtime112 Well all those black puffs sure looked scary. For a second I asked myself if they were flying over Schweinfurt!!

Not sure but probably not. This is actually F-15C that we have in DCS so it's an approximation.

@@showtime112 In DCS there is an F-15C MSIP II introduced in 1985 and in use untill late 1990s. With digital MPCD, NCTR radar module, internal ECM etc. Israelis used earlier F-15C from 1979 during 1982 Bekaa Valley clash.

@@bazej1080 Thanks for the info!

ACP.

I wouldn't go that far.

@@showtime112 to be honest it’s all about avionics these days not performance. Never engage in a dogfight. BVR then withdraw. That’s the tactic. To expensive to risk multimillion pound assets in a knife fight.

I'm considering it. Thanks for commenting!

@@showtime112 My brother was flying CAPs in PAF F16 during that episode. The story of the shooting down if SU30 is real as far as the evidences PAF has. Indians tried their best to cover up the shootdown though. They lost a Mig21-bis and a SU-30 MKI, both to F16s. Only two Aim120C5s were fired and both found their marks, a mid range mi21 kill and a long range Flanker kill. The SU30 formation was cut in half(2 to 1) and PAF has the relevant radar (disappearance of one of the SU30 tracks from the radars of multiple F16 formations doing AMRAAM grinds high above Kashmir, AWACS and the ground based ones covering the engagement zone) /communication (PAF was eavesdropping on Indian A2A and A2G Comm links.) evidences to prove this. Furthermore, the SU30 was shot down from a very long range and the wreckage fell inside the Indian occupied territory. Hence, despite having all the proofs, PAF reluctantly didn't pursue their claim with force. It was noted by intelligence assets on ground in Indian occupied zone, however, that the SU30s wreckage was collected by the Indians and put inside a closed aircraft hanger at one of the airfields nearby (Awantipura I guess). Also, contrary to Indian propaganda, no Viper was lost as downed Bison had all four missile attached to the pylons (I guess two R73 and two other missiles). Data linked fighters, AWACS and EW from F16s and DA20 played a vital role in the success of PAF. Also, InAF shot down one of their own MI-17 Helo, an apparent case of fratricide.

@@showtime112 That might be helpful: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-J-vYtEqu1MQ.html

@@01maak Thank you for the info. I'm curious about one thing. Didn't Pakistan deny that F-16s were used at all during that event?

@@showtime112 It was denied initially, perhaps due to the fear of US condemnation over the use of F16 in the shoot down. However, once US authorities got to know about the success of the PAF tactics and the use of AMRAAM in shooting down of the latest Russian airplane, which Indian boasted to be the Raptor of the East (SU30 MKI), they not only did not object much but in fact silently expressed their happiness over the whole episode. After all it proved the ultimate superiority of their tech over the Russians :) .

Yes, Israelis like to give different names to their aircraft.

Hvala na komentaru!

Yes, I heard about that one too. Older generation can be effective when used properly.

@@showtime112 Yes but Mig21 bison have New avionics, New windscreen and hood, New radar, HUD, and engine improved to send overboost during few minutes until 9,000 kg of thrust 😱😱