FA20 & FB20 Engine Build Problems Subaru FA, FB 3rd-Gen (How to fix 2022) 

@BASSNSANE actually it's probably supply and demand. Fb20 engine failure rate is way less than the ej253. More people are looking to buy an ej engine

​@@georgeparker555 What are you running at the moment?

@BASSNSANE Here in Australia FA/FB engines are also cheaper than EJ25s. Like @George Parker mentioned, the EJs are getting pushed harder under boost and are more common to blow up.

Yeah - this is just another Subaru design failure.

@digable crates Yep, unfortunately so.

Hey StealthRider, for sure. The FA20 is a great motor well suited in the 86. You could drive it daily with no issues. The rocker drop issue is just something to be aware of, as all engines have something that is susceptible to failure. Nothing is perfect. It comes down to a bit of luck too.Glad to hear it's going well for you. How many do you think have been produced globally?

Great to hear Sam! Did you have any photos or videos from the install?

@@denstoj yes of course I do

Sweet, might be easier to send on IG

Thanks, Charles. Yep, you’re right. At the start of the video, the engine shown has the green springs that were part of the 2012-2013 recall. Later in the video it’s a 2015 engine with the updated blue springs. It’s difficult to tell they’re blue in the video though! Must be the way my phone captured it.

I have seen couple of videos replace the fuis of timing chain, is this usual is Subaru?

Sorry Alsharif, would you be able to explain further what you mean by “fuis” or link the videos?

@@denstoj 😂 sorry because of text editing. What I say is I have so many videos replace the guide of the timing chain, is this usual in new engine generation??

@@alsharifhusain sorry I haven’t seen any with this problem

yeah, i think the valve spring recall fixed this issue.

@@mrjklee The valve spring recall actually has not fixed this issue. The rockers are still free-floating and hence can fall out from the pivot. Our clip and modified pivot resolves this issue.

Nope they haven’t even the gr Yaris even can drop one !! And needs a retention clip

Hey it’s a common problem no matter if it is stock or tuned. It can happen across the whole rev range. Yes, it is more likely at higher revs. The worst scenario is whenever you’re shifting and miss a gear. Hope that helps you can find more information on our website Denstoj.com.au or ask a question here.

The only parts that are not oem are the rocker retainer clips .You will need to reuse your rockers and we supply you with modified OEM pivots.

@@denstoj thank you for the response. This kit will hold, with a build that yields 500+BHP?

ENCINAS g This kit is a must with a big build or a stock engine to retain rockers .

@@denstoj thanks! I am a new cust...and will be using your product on my build. Keep putting out information, we can always use it

@@1atinlove Will do! What other questions can we help with more information on?

Sorry to hear! I hope that you managed to escape safely and shut the engine down ok when it happened. It’s difficult to say without inspecting the engine as it depends on the severity of the damage. Everything can be fixed but at what cost. It will be safer with a rocker retainer kit. 👍

Invention from down under! 🦘

@@denstoj crikey

Strewth

Yes ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE--jDrkEEK99E.html

Hey Kenny, 1. The lash adjusters are not hydraulic, instead, the valve clearance adjustment is done by a bucket on top of the valve stem. We will upload a video explaining this. 2. The rocker is not oil pressurised from underneath. Oil is fed from a galley in the side of the pivot to lubricate the interface between the pivot and rocker. We have demonstrated this in the following video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-AncxPbaI-9k.html 3. Yes, incorrect valve clearance would increase the likelihood of a rocker falling out, however, even with the correct valve clearance, if a valve sticks or bounces the rockers can still fall out as they are free-floating.

The rocker falling out issue has not been fixed in the latest 2020 FA20 & FB20 engines. It is evident in all third generation Subaru engines, including FA20 (2012+) and FB20 (2010+).

Nope ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE--jDrkEEK99E.html

Good to hear.

We too think they would have fixed the rockers falling out by now. Unfortunately, not. The engine valve spring recall that affected 2012-2013 vehicles was due to the valve springs potentially fracturing. Source: www.toyota.com.au/news/toyota-australia-recalls-86-vehicles-to-replace-engine-valve-springs The free-floating rocker design is still evident in third-generation Subaru engines, FA20 (2012+) FB20 (2010+). Yes, the pivots have been revised three times, however, functionally they are the same. The rockers are still prone to falling out. Please see our other videos for more information.

@@denstoj That helps me a ton. I am going to have to open up the motor to fix the my oil leak. I will add the retainers at the same time.

I see this being a huge problem if you have a manual transmission it should be a recall revision.

@@denstoj I also think there should be a recall for the timing cover leaking because of the potential for an oil fire as with the rocker punching through the head.

No problem, we’re glad it has helped you. If you’re pulling the engine out anyway, that would be the perfect time to install our rocker retainers. Has your timing cover leak happened after having the valve spring recall done?

Even if you aren’t adding power, unless you would rather continue praying 🙏 a rocker doesn’t drop, best improvement to save yourself from an engine rebuild is retaining the rockers. 👍

We’re working on a similar solution for the Yaris engine 👍

Got these now Jay! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-V4IDYBl5LaE.html

@@denstoj glad there are companies like yours around .. you would think the factory engineering would have picked up on these issues .

Cheers Jay! Yes, such a simple solution. It’s a no brainer. Don’t know why it’s not done from factory. Did you end up getting your hands on a GR Corolla?

@@denstoj no not yet . waiting for you to work all the bugs out .lol

Hi Matt, yes all rockers are the same on the third-generation Subaru FA/FB engines and susceptible to the same issue.

Yes i am also surprised when i see any subaru engine get over 200k miles

Yes when it’s a 3rd gen engine.

Yep ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE--jDrkEEK99E.html

Hey Bok Choy! Yes. You can remove the rocker cover without removing the front timing chain cover. The engine does have to come out of the car. It's easiest to leave the gearbox attached as seen in our video.

Same with a 2015+ wrx ?

Yes you can

Sorry, I had to use Google translate but it still doesn't really make sense?

Yes, pivots are the same. We have a video installing our kit in our 2022 BRZ FA24. What sparks your interest? ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ImINQhO7Vcw.html

@@denstoj darn. Kinda sad to hear the WRX.needs it, but that's awesome you make this for us guys.

@matthewwain9958 no probs! Yep, sad it hasn’t been fixed.

Yes, to our knowledge, Subaru isn’t running a rocker retainer on their 3rd generation engines (FA and FB).

@@denstoj Thanks. Hope my Ascent holds together : /

No problem. Hope it holds together too!

I will have kits available for purchase in a week at DENSTOJ.COM.AU

Hi Vicente! We have added some more information about the kit (including purchase) at our website.

Yep! Exactly. Not the reliable design you'd expect. Have you had one fail on you?

Hey @Ede4345, yes most likely worn valve cover seals/gaskets. Is it misfiring at all?

@@denstoj no but it’s turning off on me. Will start back up but will turn off after a few mins.

@ede4345 try giving the throttle body a good clean with degreaser. Also, just checking, what part of the spark plug are you finding the oil on?

Hey goat3800, yes if you’re one of the luckier ones, it is possible a rocker could dislodge safely and tuck itself neatly in the tapet cover and the 2nd exhaust or inlet valve will keep doing most of the work. You will notice it low on power or running a bit odd. How is your 86 currently running that has you concerned? Thanks for the question.

Hey @midnitewritr, the lash for the FA20 is meant to be set cold. The specifications are; Inlet 0.10-0.16 mm and Exhaust 0.21-0.27mm. We prefer to set lash on the looser side to ensure proper valve seating under running temperatures. Are you currently setting up your engine?

@@denstoj Not setting up engine . I'm considering buying a newer one w/ that style engine . I like having all the information on hand well before I delve into it . Thanks A bunch. Happy New Year, Mate

@midnitewritr no worries. Good plan. You too.

Hey @@DKSE123, we now have added a link on our FAQ page to a worksheet to help when setting up the valves. Scroll down to the "Installation" section: denstoj.com.au/pages/faq-fa-fb-denstoj-rocker-retainer-kit

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE--jDrkEEK99E.html

Thank you.

@prockallday That is a difficult question to answer without knowing your current setup and goals. There are a lot of great options and it depends if your engine is still naturally aspirated or you’re planning to run a turbocharger or supercharger. What is your current setup and what power are you aiming to hit?

@@DenstojAutoCentreCarrington it is n/a i was lookin at the avo turbo kit but too much rn. Just thinking about how much power i can get from it with it still being reliable

@@prockallday same here I have a 2013 Subaru Legacy with fb25 engine.Did some research on this engine but it seems like a bad idea to turbocharge this type of engine.Did you find any other alternatives to getting maximum horsepower out of this engine apart from installing turbocharger

No ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE--jDrkEEK99E.html

denstoj.com.au/products/fa20-fb-rocker-retainer-kit But we’re currently out of stock of new pivots so please email us dennis@denstoj.com.au to get on the waiting list. Thanks.

We now have stock. denstoj.com.au/products/fa20-fb-rocker-retainer-kit

Hey @lld, We don't actually get the FB25D variant here in Australia, but I would look out for common issues like excessive oil consumption and carbon build up with the direct injection system. I did a quick google and there is potentially a timing chain tensioner issue and the cam carrier seals are prone to leaking, so watch out for both of these. Oh and there is that rocker drop issue ;) I probably wouldn't worry for a stock daily driver unless you were already pulling the motor out for something else. Different story if you were modding. The 3rd generation engines from Subaru are reliable, but like any motor, they're not perfect and there are just things to look out for. As long as you keep them well maintained, you should be right. Do you currently have one in your car or thinking about buying a car with the FB25D?

Hey John, we sell them as part of a kit with pivots on our website Denstoj.com.au

$900 for that simple little kit is way too expensive!!!!!

@@johnhill484$900 bucks or 10k engine rebuild once you bend a valve

@filiplaskovski9993 exactly!

Yep ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE--jDrkEEK99E.html

Hey Eric, 1. No, to install the retaining clip you must first replace the pivots with our custom machined ones. The clip will not work on its own otherwise the retaining clip will not be able to locate and stay in place. Our pivots have a location groove for the clip. 2. It not a lifter, it is a pivot. 3. The clip is not loaded under normal operating conditions. Only when the rocker is about to fall out does the clip hold the rocker in place. The retainer will last as long as the rest of the valvetrain.

Hey @Mike Rosado, you can order from our website. Link below. I’ll keep an eye out for your order and if you have any question, drop them here. 👍 denstoj.com.au/products/fa20-fb-rocker-retainer-kit

Good questions but unfortunately not. The rockers are floating in all 3rd generation Subaru engines (FA and FB). We made a video of installing our same kit in the FA24 in the 2022 BRZ: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-WqAb0UObhDk.htmlsi=ls2ekay2Lt5Yrih4

@denstoj thank you for quick reply, is there any difference between the FA20 and The FB20 ? Or they the same engine

Also does this mean I shouldn't buy a Subaru, cause I am in the market for one comparing between the crosstrek and corolla cross

You're welcome! Yes, there are some differences between the FA20 and FB20 engines. The FA20 is a 2.0-litre flat-four engine with direct injection and is used in models like the Subaru BRZ, Toyota 86, and some versions of the WRX. It's known for its higher performance. On the other hand, the FB20 is also a 2.0-litre flat-four engine but with a focus on fuel efficiency and emissions. It's used in models like the Subaru Impreza and XV/Crosstrek. The FB20 features a different combustion chamber design and doesn't have direct injection like the FA20.

Both the Subaru Crosstrek and the Toyota Corolla Cross are great choices, each with its own strengths. The Crosstrek is known for its all-wheel-drive system, which provides excellent traction and handling, especially in off-road or slippery conditions. It also has a comfortable ride and good fuel economy. The Corolla Cross, on the other hand, is a newer model that offers good fuel efficiency, a comfortable interior, and Toyota's reputation for reliability. It's a bit more urban-focused compared to the Crosstrek, with a smoother ride in city driving. Ultimately, the choice between the two will depend on your specific needs and preferences. If you value all-wheel-drive and a more rugged capability, the Crosstrek might be the better choice. If you're looking for a reliable and efficient compact SUV for city driving, the Corolla Cross could be a great option. It's always a good idea to test drive both vehicles to see which one feels right for you. Knowing about the rocker issue doesn't mean that a Subaru is not a good buy. It's just something to be aware of. Like any car, they have their strengths and weaknesses. The important thing is to be informed about potential issues and to make sure that they are addressed or monitored. As long as you keep up with regular maintenance and address any issues that arise, a Subaru can be a great choice. We have a couple of the 86s/BRZs ourselves of course!

Planning any other upgrades?

@@denstoj I'd like to but it's just a base model with cvt. Lack of aftermarket support is serious for the fbs . It really is amazing on fuel though

@@stevecameron85ah yeah got it, what kind of upgrades would you like to see for it? edit: maybe if it wasn't the base model cvt ;)

I'll ask Dennis and get back to you

Anything is possible but haven’t done it before. Unsure if it will bolt straight up to the gearbox. What were you thinking?

I believe that all FA& FB engines will at some time have this problem . Subaru as I understand havn't resolved this problem they have tried with camshaft and spring upgrade but for the life of me i can"t understand why they don"t do what i have done .

DENSTOJ AUTO CENTRE thanks

​@@billdickson1142 Thanks for the suggestion! If we were to patent the idea to an OEM there is no guarantee that they would release it to the public. It could potentially just be purchased and "put on the shelf". This would result in drivers still being at risk of destroying their engines. We are a family business and want to support other car enthusiasts to the best of our ability. The patent process would also be a long and expensive one where we would have to stop supplying the kits. We can help people now by selling directly to you :). Note: This is our newer account.

​@@billdickson1142 Thanks for your input. Our aim is simplicity to increase reliability and decrease cost. Our system with the clip and modified pivot works and is proven on both daily drivers and track cars. We would question the need to over-complicate the system. A chain tensioner or hydraulic lash adjuster could add additional failure modes such as a loss of oil pressure. Crowd-funding is a great idea and is a potential way for us to help more people save their engines from failing.

2014 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE--jDrkEEK99E.html

We can only hope John. It still hasn’t been fixed in the current engines by Subaru which makes absolutely no sense!

Hey @Best Engine JDM, we custom make the clip and pivots to suit. denstoj.com.au/products/fa20-fb-rocker-retainer-kit

Do you have only that clips parts number The full kit is very expensive

Hey @Best Engine JDM, we custom make the clip and pivots to suit. Manufactured to a high standard in Australia denstoj.com.au/products/fa20-fb-rocker-retainer-kit

Hello from Australia to Switzerland! Yes, as it is still an FB20 valve train it will have the same rocker issue. Are you looking to have the engine apart anytime soon?

@@denstoj Hello, thank you for your answer. For yet, my Fb20x works fine with 13'000 kilometers soon. Everytime i buy a new car, i always look to know his weaknesses. I hope to not have this kind of problems. We will see what reserves the future. And now i know where to ask help for the Subaru engines. Denstoj auto centre in Australia. Thank you in advance for your help.

@@heliomartins8593 No worries. Great to hear you’re aware of potential issues with your car. I’m happy that you found it helpful. Feel free to ask any more questions in the future.

@@denstoj I just want to share with you all, i have a telephone conversation with Subaru Europe. They say non oficially, the oil 0W20 is great to the north and cold countries. For lands who have a moderate climate like France, Germany or New-Zealand, their advice is use 0w30, 0w40 or 5w30. For countries who have a hot climate like Portugal, Spain, North Africa, Middle-East, Australia for example, they recommend to use 5w40, 0w40 only. That oil can help the engine to not overheating inside. For my case, i use oil with the rules APi SN and ACEA C5 and a3/b3. For this time i make my choice for the Castrol Edge Titanium 0W40, 5 litres costs me around 120 us dollars. But next time, i have in the idea to use Valvoline, i use this brand with satisfaction from 14 years... Take care. Grettings from Swiss...

If the engine will be destroyed, to make the things right, is find a good mechanic rebuilder. Hope so you can rebuilt the broken engine or find a good one used in a junkyard and put all parts out to control and change the used parts... and here we go again...

Subaru can't afford more class action lawsuits.

@@mopar21 and they keep fuckin up with their new motors Toyota done fucked them up good after 2008 subarus are poopoo and I got an 09 interior feels cheap plastic bov and manifold

Ejs are proven to be unreliable let's be honest here. Cracked ringlands, headgasket issues and more service to do such as timing belt and water pump

Hey Freddy wrx, are you swapping your 86 with an EJ? 🤣

Let’s hope not! From what we can tell, Subaru has changed to beehive springs in the FA24 but still not retained the rockers. We’re eager to pull apart an FA24D from the 2022 86/BRZ and inspect the rockers.

@@denstoj yes I’m all here for it, looking to buying the GR86 next year. Don’t plan on making any modifications to it. If the issue still persists maybe I’ll get a kit when I have to do the spark plugs. Kill two birds with one stone.

@@18nakedcowboys69 Neat! Have you put a pre-order in at all? Yeah, even if you aren’t doing many modifications and just going for reliability installing our rocker retainer kit when changing spark plugs is ideal.

@@denstoj not yet! I plan to get a 2023 model, gives me time to raise some funds. All I care about is reliability and fun driving. Never been much for speed.

More to come ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE--jDrkEEK99E.html

We've had it happen to three of our motors that we've worked on as part of the Toyota 86 race series here in Australia.

@Donnie Foster Valve clearance is vital for correct engine operation; however, as the rocker is floating, it can still fail regardless. Proper valve clearance would reduce the likelihood of it occurring, but it is still possible when a valve sticks or bounces across the rev range.

It will ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE--jDrkEEK99E.html

Sorry can you please explain your question I don’t understand it.

We certainly hope you don't but we're sorry to say that these engines are prone to the same failure!

Difficult to be certain from just the video but I would start with removing the rocker covers and inspecting the valve springs and rocker arms.

Definitely not!

I imagine the FB engines would have the same rod bearings as the FA but best to check.

Hey Bob, do you have a Toyota 86? There are many examples of rockers dropping online. Just one here, but we're planning to add more: denstoj.com.au/pages/why-rocker-retainers

@@denstoj i have a vb wrx. i have scanned the whole internet and you are the only people who find this a problem.

Yes, we're also wondering why Subaru has not fixed it. Most engines with this valve train arrangement run some form of rocker retainer.

@@denstoj maybe there is nothing to fix!

​@@bobhebblewhite1685 I just picked up 3 broken fa20's to make one good one. They're all from 2013 and at least 2 of the 3 had rockers fall out. The other was torn down already but was missing cams and other pieces so I can only imagine it too suffered the same fate. I'm not putting this engine back together without retaining clips. Only problem is I don't want to pay 600$ 😅 time to bust out the drill and cut off wheel 🤷🏼‍♂️

That’s what it’s about! Giving it a good crack. Is it going into an 86?

@@denstoj I know how to use mills/lathes but no longer work in a shop that has either so I'll have to make do. Yes, well a BRZ but same thing. If it doesn't go well, I'll be placing an order.

Completely agree. Surprised that Subaru haven't fixed it.