So Saber Alter is still willing to protect her people but she is willing to protect them through cruel and evil means right? So her colder approach is to protect them through evil means? Mind giving me a break down on her personality?
well i think tecnically gil got one thing changed his got WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY worse the grail even if you resist the mud it also amplifies the negative traits you have even if you don't get turned in to an alter. that would explain gilgamesh being all high and mighty with shirou even more than usual cause if you see ccc gilgamesh he is very different there. same old gil but still way more tactical than mr gil in ubw
Either that or could be spun that she knows God exists... His Judgement Exists... and He is pissed that they fucked her over like that. So here she is.
"... and her face looked like somebody ate the last slice of pizza - how unsightly." Damn, this only sentence made me instant-sub and like this video. :)
From what I know, not every Alter is an avenger like how Jeanne is, this is the same switched around. Alters are dark reflections, Avengers hate humanity, you've got Jeanne Alter... that right there is a real Sith Lord.
Not necessarily. They're not dark or evil, but an inversion of their ideals, it's just that a lot of servants who turn alter are usually good guys... unless it's Jeanne Alter or cu Alter who are merely messed up idealization of them by other people.
Kinda, it is similar to the concept of a black mirror (not the show), basically, the bad parts of a personality is amplified. Saber and Saber Alter still care about the same thing more or less, being a good king, however, the difference is the actions, Saber Alter is a more of a, “the ends justify the means”, type of person while normal Saber is an idealist, believing that a king must embody the ideas to be a good king.
Jeanne was the closest thing to a saint . even when burning wouldnt damn those who accosted her. she didnt have a lick of hate in her. so for her alter to be a thing it cant be that it amplified her negative emotions. It flipped her personality/ideals on its head and since it was so opposite to her actual personality. even her class changed
I’m interested to hear about X Alter considering how little there is regarding her canon lore. Having to get into an argument with a friend about her being just “a joke character of a joke character” wasn’t fun. I really hope there’s more to her besides the tiny fraction that I have found.
Romulus Alter would be an interesting concept. It could be a version of him that represents the Roman empire during its decay or one who absolutely hates his "children" for failing to maintain it.
quipper Rome was corrupt since its foundation, did you ever heard off the story how Rome was built or how he got woman to settle into his City? Give the rape of the sabine woman a good read, will ya?
Oh yeah. I heard about that. But I'm talking less about the more depraved methods behind its establishment as a major world power, and more about the inability of later emperors to keep things running smoothly combined with the over-extension of the empire's borders.
I think a Julius Caeser alter might be more appropriate. It'd turn him from less of a joke character... and more of a 'first of the empire, last of the republicans' sort. A true despot. At first I thought possibly a Nero alter... but given that she literally has enough ego to assume the mantle of Venus in Extella... i don't think she'd go through a full blackening. XD
quipper To be fair, lorewise Julius is pretty damn OP. Crocea Mors embodies the concept of "I came, I saw, I conquered", so as long as Julius is on a battlefield and sees his opponent, he literally cannot lose. If he has Crocea Mors in his Rider class then I'm betting on Grand Rider candidate.
> saber got corrupted then undergo blackening. > hates everyone coz nobody will likes her in her current form. Me: girl you are my type how can hate you? No matter what is your i love you. Good sir, can you include artoria pendragon lancer alter on your upcoming lore?
In terms of the ego bit, I’ve always interpreted as if the Servant has something in particular they are struggling with, that is kind of the fulcrum around which their values are inverted. I.e. Arturia and Jeanne struggle with kingship and faith respectively and even in their alter forms are still concerned with this, but view them differently (more cynically). I’m not sure if it’s even be possible for Gil or Broskander to be blackened since they don’t have much by way of internal doubt or inconsistent philosophies, ect. But that’s just how I’ve always read into it - don’t particularly think its written anywhere :x good video !
The thing is Jeanne Alter didn't really exist in that she is not Jeanne she is a clone whose personality and history was created full bore from Gilles wish on the grail because it was impossible for the real one to be an Alter as she completely had no regrets or harbored any ill will towards those that killed her.
@@Lowdian i can imagine him walking around fuyuki just chillin the view. maybe have a little chat with sakura XD XD. hell, in phantasm he got around reading manga and playing games XD XD. probably got bored after awhile, but he understand he needs to conserve mana. killing kids for mana,, someones gonna notice if too many kids get missing.
Blend into the modern world? Hahahahaha foolish mongrel he doesn’t blend in, they are too low of lifeforms to even contemplate lowering himself for their standards. They will either bask in his glory or perish.
Great video about the Alter concept, Tsiah! Of course there is more than one way of a servant becoming an alter and you got two down for Saber Alter and Joan Alter, both of which I consider separate people from the originals.
Spoilers It's been implied throughout Grand Order that Saber Alter in GO is a completely separate entity from Artoria. (Artoria in her corrupted state in HF =/= Saber Alter in GO. a.k.a. Artoria post-HF did not ascend to the Throne). Same thing for Jeanne Alter.
Someone has already come up with the idea ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-_-mOLcJdn8A.html . He also came up with the idea to use the "Emiya family team" ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-YMC-CeycDuo.html .
This Alter Form stuff has turned into quite the rabbit hole. The idea of some characters becoming evil, like Saber, is pretty cool since it isn't situation like Dark Link from the Zelda games. Now it's been blown out of proportion like a single character having multiple alter forms for whatever reason, and Joane Alter has really taken off. Thank you much for making this my dude, now there's a basis to go off of.
My thoughts on this are as follows (Somewhat copy-pasted from a facebook post about it, specifically about whether Iskandar Alter was a possibility.): 'Alter' doesn't seem to necessarily indicate evil anymore so much as it usually is just a dark mirror. That's presuming that 'Blackening' is just a single method (of many) of birthing an Alter Servant, which explicitly is evil-aligned. We know that this is kind of true, because Gilles De Rais is able to summon a patchwork, counterfeit Jeanne D'Arc that we all know as Jalter. This is a twisted version of the original that should have never existed. You also have other Alters, such as Lancer Alter (Artoria), who is a Lawful Good character who used the grail to help her maintain her humanity from being sapped away by Rhongomyniad, and developed a connection to it. Like most Alters, this came at the expense of her inhibition and idealism. She became a realist who, although is good, is a tyrant who will dominate her people for their own good. Her restraint has disappeared, basically. What we can basically determine about Alters is that they're basically just 'alternates', but if we're willing to accept that they all have common traits and should continue to, then basically the gist of it is that: 1) The Holy Grail is almost always involved in making them this way. The only exception so far being Tiamat's Chaos Tide, which causes blackening similar to Angra Mainyu's Black Grail Mud. 2) The overwhelming change present in all Alters is loss of inhibition, restrait, and idealism. They become altogether more true to their basic desires and give in to their more human side rather than being 'heroic'. I guess the point being made is that Regrets or Wishes aren't necessary. If Jeanne can be Altered by the Grail, then anyone can, by lore. Iskandar Alter is certainly viable in that regard, but there would have to be circumstances in which the grail would have altered him, in the first place, which are completely up in the air.
You brought up Prisma Illya, why don't you do a video on Villain Shirou? Like, go into detail on his life and how he's vastly different from the other variations of Shirou Emiya. Like their UBW and how they all are different from each other. Or even do a compare and contrast of all the Shirous who dreamed to be a hero and/or became a hero, and Villain Shirou. Another video idea: do a video on Nameless from Extra, Extella, and Extra CCC.
@Tsiah IV to correct you on one thing. Gilles does summon Summon Jeanne Alter as a Ruler class originally hence why she summoned as many fake berserker servants as she did albeit through Gilles' and his holy grail's support. but Jeanne Alter was originally a Ruler class. her avenger class is something she achieved by her own merits in trying to become stronger which she somehow manages to pull and became so powerful where rather than be recognized as a ruler she attained a class different from her original self and became the first avenger to be summoned in grand order. also Shakespeare's summoning of Gilles was is a bit more detailed but nothing that really makes sense
Do they now? I'm pretty sure Nasu confirmed that the conflict between Kirei and Kiritsugu was all in Kirei's mind. In fact,Kirei pretty much confirms this in the VN and novels when he shows how disgusted he is by how typically heroic Kiritsugu actually was in his heart. All Kiritsugu wanted was to create a happy world so that the sacrifices he experienced would not be repeated. He even has doubts about his sacrifice of Iri for the greater goal of a peaceful world. Kirei's true mirror image is Shirou, the twisted shell of a man who can only feel something by helping others, in the same way Kirei can only feel something by hurting others. Kirei and Shirou are just empty and they attempt to fill the emptyness in opposite ways, one by hurting others, the other by saving them. But none of them felt fulfilled, they just felt they HAD to do it. That's what differentiates Kiritsugu from both of them and why I think the idea that he mirrors either of them is just wrong.
Another reason on why Strange fake Heracles wears that shroud over his body is for protection. It basically protects him from human made weapons, and only divine weapons can hurt him.
I am like a year late but doesn't Okita Alter literally just flips everything about Alters, she is possibility of what she could have been in future if she hadn't died and is the Okita that is made by becoming an Counter Guardian and is not corrupted by anything. She literally has the alignment true neutral.
Tsiah lV great attempt at explaining the alter forms From what I can tell their are two alter transformations Coin flip and song of madness The first coin flip refers to the polarity flip on how a servent achieves their goal witch result in a kind king becoming a tyrant or a saint becoming a witch Son of maddness is a self imposed transformation example atalanta can only become her alter self with the calydonian boar hide
This is an awesome video and I am wondering if I can make a request for the servant of Hans Christian Anderson for the next lore video or in the future if that is not too much trouble?
Ah shit yes good thing i already finished the whole fate series, now this answer all of my questions on how saber became alter saber, this helps alot to me thank you
I think there could be a gilgamesh alter, but it would have to be either jalter and cu alters case where Gil is created by the imagination of someone or like emyia alter where there is an alternative universe with different events happening to Gilgamesh. I would like it to be emyias case where we can have a Gil who is basically kratos. Wanting revenge on the gods who took enkidue away from him and halters the greatness of humanity. Like an servant who rules his kingdoms just like muzan from demon slayer and is titled the killer of gods
In recent years, Alter Servants are no longer strictly Evil in alignment. Lancer Artoria Alter is Lawful Good and Okita Alter is True Neutral. Also the Counter Force itself will pop out an Alter Servant on its own like with Okita Alter.
I still laugh at Alter taking down Emiya. I want to see that fight for myself, 'cause with Rho Aias and UBW being factors, I really want to see how that would play out.
A few small things. One, alters are not exclusively evil. Artoria lancer alter is lawful good. In Jeanne alter's case, the ability to summon more servants has less to do with her than it does that they have the grail. I mean, if you had a wish granting device, you could manage a bunch of broken junk but it'd have nothing to do with you personally. She's a manifestation of what Gilles wished Jeanne's reaction to betrayal would have been. She was made not out of Jeanne at all but of his wish from the grail. So she's not exactly Jeanne's opposite either except in terms of class or Jeanne at all but rather Gilles's fabrication, a fictional servant made from a wish based on his liking, modeled after Jeanne.
Actually, when we encounter Jeanne Alter, she's actually a ruler. She only becomes an Avenger when she promised that she was going to build up her saint graph and summon herself. When she did summon herself, as an Avenger, because by god she wants to hang out with you, she summons 7 servants in their respective classes.
So I'm finally beginning to understand Gilgamesh and his different appearances a bit more. So in Fate/Zero, he's summoned as Archer, and he basically doesn't care about anything. He's kinda just there, because the grail already belongs to him anyway, so he's just kinda making sure nobody else takes it (his reasoning from the show). After he touches the grail mud, he comes back with a physical body. I read on the wiki that Gilgamesh is affected by whatever era he's summoned in, and that having a human body again amplifies this. So in FSN he's actually kinda pissed off and really arrogant, which is why Shirou can mop the utter floor with him in Unlimited Blade Works despite all of the absolutely broken nonsense we know Gilgamesh can do. He isn't fighting seriously or at his full potential at all because his arrogance and anger wont let him. And in Grand Order, he's so freakin' broken and actually CAN fight with a sword because this is actually him, not an incarnation from the Throne of Heroes summoned and locked into a specific servant class. And since he isn't under the influence of the grail or being displaced in another era, and has his full arsenal at his disposal, he's a lot more calm, a lot more rational, and a HECK of a lot more powerful. On a side note, Shirou said he couldn't fight with a sword in Blade Works because he was a king, not a warrior, even though in the original legend he wrestles Enkidu bare-handed and has enough physical strength to shake the walls of the gate they were fighting near, and he took own Humbaba with nothing but a golden axe and sword that collectively weighed more than most people can physically carry. I think him and Enkidu also had bows as well, I'll have to reread it. He also killed the Bull of Heaven bare-handed as well if I recall. So ya, Shirou should be hella glad Gil didn't call his bluff, or that he wasn't actually trying to win until it was far too late.
