Тёмный

Flying VFR through RAIN & Getting Fussed at by a STRAIGHT IN Cirrus & Cool WWII aviation museum -Pt3 

SoCal Flying Monkey
Подписаться 137 тыс.
Просмотров 58 тыс.
50% 1

The toughest leg of our journey home from Osh has us flying through rain, dodging storms, and getting fussed at by a VFR straight in airplane at a non towered airport. Part 3 of 3 in our Osh to CA video series.
FAA Airplane Flying Handbook Chapter 7 Traffic Patterns: www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...
Advisory Circular 90-66B Non Towered Traffic Patterns:
www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/m...
www.learnthefinerpoints.com/g.... -- the BEST Ground School App for learning to fly and keeping skills sharp by The Finer Points. Use CODE MONKEY for an exclusive 10% off.
FREE ACTIVATION of your Zoleo when you buy at bit.ly/3NfCXg6 and then use code FLYINGMONKEY upon activation and plan selection with ZOLEO.
Support this channel on Patreon: www.patreon.com/socalflyingmonkey
and get exclusive member benefits and merch.
Merch: www.socalflyingmonkey.com
USE CODE MONKEY 10 for 10% off all merch for a limited time.
Instagram Follow: / socalflyingmonkey
Portions of ATC communication and the flight have been edited. This video is not instructional in any way. I am not a CFI. I am sharing my experience and thoughts about this flight and this should be taken as entertainment only. By sharing mistakes and accomplishments alike, hopefully the aviation community will benefit.

Опубликовано:

 

29 сен 2022

Поделиться:

Ссылка:

Скачать:

Готовим ссылку...

Добавить в:

Мой плейлист
Посмотреть позже
Комментарии : 610   
@TheFinerPoints
@TheFinerPoints Год назад
This is a bit misleading the way it's edited. It's important to note that the Cirrus pilot did not have to go around and that we were pulling into our parking spot when he was exiting the runway. There was plenty of room or I wouldn't have made the short approach. If there wasn't enough room, the Cirrus pilot would have been forced to go around, please note that did not happen. 2 miles out is not short final (even if you call it that) and just because he was surprised we "turned in front of him" doesn't mean we "cut him off". He just slowed to normal speeds and landed after we did, which was the "traffic permitting" he asked for. I make power off short approaches all the time and knew that if he were two miles out there was plenty of time to do that (even if he didn't slow down). So I think his comment on the radio made this seem a bit more controversial than it really was.
@StevieWonder737
@StevieWonder737 Год назад
Two mile final may not be short, but neither is it extended. You could have extended your downwind leg to base turn by about a mile and had sufficient spacing. Again a small bit of courtesy here would have prevented ANY controversy no matter how you think it should be referenced
@kaasmeester5903
@kaasmeester5903 Год назад
As a student pilot, it still seems a little risky to me to get in front of another aircraft on a straight in final. IIRC the Watsonville accident was caused in part by the guy turning on final misjudging the speed of the straight in aircraft behind him (who by all accounts was going way faster than could reasonably be expected). He thought he had plenty of space but the other plane (also a Cirrus?) was eating up that distance.
@chrisrichardson4899
@chrisrichardson4899 Год назад
You REALLY should do some math and revisit your assertion that it wasn't that close. Seriously. How long were you on final that flighttracker shows you turned at .3 miles?
@chrisrichardson4899
@chrisrichardson4899 Год назад
@@kaasmeester5903 DR 22 is coming in on final at 91-100 kts depending on vfr or instrument when by the books, many tend to come in hotter. It's a slick aircraft and many strait in (any ac type) approaches the pilot is hot. The pattern tends to slow everyone down to what it should be. Plus the nature of a cirrus doesn't really nudge the pilot towards practicing short field landing techniques or even always hitting the numbers.. more normal to see fast landings and long roll out
@GregiiFlieger
@GregiiFlieger Год назад
My impression, the poor entitled Cirrus pilot had to slow down and could have done so from the beginning of the scenario. Safety, guidelines, courtesy and the rest did not matter to him. He simply felt entitled. Avoid these types of pilots. They get people killed.
@scottmoseley5122
@scottmoseley5122 Год назад
Seemed to be an ego battle here: "Mr Straight In Cirrus..I don't think that is such great idea."
@YaroslavNechaev
@YaroslavNechaev Год назад
Yea, at least the way the video is edited it seems that there was 0 reason to cut in front of Cirrus other than ego
@mexicancustard7714
@mexicancustard7714 Год назад
That was my thought. Why not respond to the Cirrus then and let him know there is traffic in the pattern? He announces "if traffic allows". Let him know right then that there is traffic in the pattern and there would have never been an issue.
@flyingsa
@flyingsa Год назад
I will go ahead and say the difficult thing here. I am a big fan of both you guys and I agree that the Cirrus should have joined the pattern, however I believe you put yourselves at risk especially because once you made that base to final turn you had zero control on what he would do at that point. What if he made a mistake and overran you? It is my humble opinion that I would have extended and maybe yelled at him later if I had to but not turn in front of him to prove I'm right.
@HoundDogMech
@HoundDogMech Год назад
That's exactly what caused the Mid-air you referred too. But in this incidence NO harm NO foul. Live to fly another day Bro.
@albriseno2428
@albriseno2428 Год назад
I totally agree. This easily could have been a second Watsonville. Although technically correct you have no way of knowing the skill of the straight-in pilot. As for the straight-in pilot, I would have thought after Watsonville, pilots would think twice, especially if there are other planes in the pattern. I think Jason has some get homeitce. As an instructor, he should have known better.
@BrittneeDrummer
@BrittneeDrummer Год назад
They were lower. So: had the right of way
@gmontoy153a
@gmontoy153a Год назад
@@BrittneeDrummer just because some things are correct, that doesn't make it the smartest things to do.
@garyjstephens
@garyjstephens Год назад
I agree. The guy called final it’s not that hard to just slow down and extend your downwind. Very dangerous demo of CFI’s always thinking they are right and causing dangerous situations just to prove they are right.
@thebadgerpilot
@thebadgerpilot Год назад
I have zero problems with straight in approaches when done properly. Lots of pilots flying to unfamiliar areas fly an instrument approach, even in VFR conditions, to help guide them to the runway. That's a long final. The key is to listen to the radio and not just talk. Ask the other guy their intentions. Formulate a plan together. After flying hours upon hours across the country, what's a few more minutes to extend the downwind behind the straight in? Be the bigger man and yield, even if you have the right of way. I've had traffic cut me off and I've just gone around. I've extended downwinds for long finals. We are all in this together. Follow the rules as best you can, but sometimes a little give and take goes a long way.
@mafp22w
@mafp22w Год назад
I had the same situation the last time I flew. I was on a practice instrument approach in VFR conditions. The right thing to do is to break off your approach and fly the offset upwind. There is no need to be a jerk. The thing that so many supporters of the straight in fail to recognize is that if you take their position there is no point in ever flying the pattern. Straight ins save you time, money and fuel and give you priority to all other traffic.
@SoCalFlyingMonkey
@SoCalFlyingMonkey Год назад
Lots of great debate in the comments here. I'm glad that there is some focus on the straight in approach especially in light of the recent Watsonville crash. Looking back, there is lots to think about!
@flyingsa
@flyingsa Год назад
Just to be clear, I still enjoy your videos and although I like to "think" I would do different in that situation I am in no way oblivious to the fact that we all make calls at the heat of the moment that we wish we hadn't. And perhaps the edit of the video fails to show something which would make our Monday morning QB a bit different.
@mafp22w
@mafp22w Год назад
I’ve been really hard on Dan, who gives the appearance of caring about safety, but was completely defensive about flying straight in with traffic in the pattern. Even if it isn’t illegal, it is rude, creates danger, and conflict. If there are no issues with a straight in with traffic in the pattern, than we should all fly them as they save us time, fuel, and money and give us priority over other traffic. They couldn’t be better for anyone with a me first attitude.
@thelastrebelshow1627
@thelastrebelshow1627 Год назад
California blows!
@charlesabdouch3052
@charlesabdouch3052 Год назад
First I want to say, the pilots should have worked this out. "Hey Cirrus, can you slow down a little as I will be down and clear before you're on short final?" Also, when I hear another plane heading for the same runway as me, I don't delay communicating with the other pilot as soon as I can. In this case, the Cirrus did say "traffic permitting" and traffic was NOT permitting, and the P210 should have communicated expediously with him. If the Cirrus knew when he was 5 miles out, slowing down a little bit would have created a big seperation. I looked at the Flightaware for the P210 and he was doing over 100kts in the pattern. Based on where the Cirrus ended up, the P210 would have had to extend downwind by up to 2 miles. That really isn't reasonable (or safe), but he also did NOT give the Cirrus pilot enough information to come to the same conclusion. While the Cirrus pilot did say "traffic permitting" he REALLY didn't mean it as he didn't work out the seperation until the last minute. I am not sure both pilots realized they were both in high-performance aircraft arriving at high speeds. Regarding straight in approaches, my Tower Controlled airport does NOT want me doing pattern work in my T210. I have to fly straight in approaches which are easier for him to coordinate all the SLOW trainer aircraft into. With my STOL kit, I can do 75kt approaches (full dirty), but the tower really likes 90-120kt approaches. Meanwhile, all the trainers in the pattern are doing 75-85kt patterns. BTW, I typically just do RNav appoaches for all my landings now as it is easier then flying patterns, especially with other aircraft in the pattern. BUT, I work out with other traffic in the pattern where I am. None the slow trainers do NOT want to pull in front of me and I have had one do a 360 to let me go ahead of him. I have ATC have an aircraft on an RNav approach 1 mile in front of me do a 360 to let me go first. I expect that the Cirrus could be just as fast as the T210 and has gotten used to flying approaches as well, but he should have worked out with a fast plane in the pattern. I didn't get the Cirrus Tail number, but here is the FlightAware for the P210 flightaware.com/live/flight/N731HR/history/20220801/2319Z/KENV/KMCC If you could provide the CIrrus N-Number, I would like to see the Cirrus FlightAware for that landing to show that you were clearly in front of him with enough seperation for this not to have been an issue.
@caseybarry5624
@caseybarry5624 Год назад
There’s absolutely no way I would have turned base-to-final when another aircraft was calling out being on final regardless of having him in sight. You set yourself up to be dependent on the pilot on final having you in sight as well and having adequate skill to avoid a possible collision. Being right doesn’t always keep you alive!
@SoCalFlyingMonkey
@SoCalFlyingMonkey Год назад
Being right is not necessarily being safe is a good point. In this case, we had the airplane in sight and it was a judgement call. In the future and in light of recent accidents, I might personally decide to extend downwind. But we wanted to publish this video to spark a discussion around this topic, the complexities of which don't get (in my own opinion) enough attention in primary training.
@mcorrive12
@mcorrive12 Год назад
@@SoCalFlyingMonkey I think it's good of you to post this. Maybe it will make more pilots mindful of why we have these procedures. Unwritten procedure: Don't be a dick. If there's traffic established in the pattern, get in line .
@aed2867
@aed2867 Год назад
@@SoCalFlyingMonkey The discussion sparked is that it’s okay to turn in front of someone on final as long as it’s a Cirrus! Seriously, you two should be ashamed of yourselves for setting such a terrible example for others. All 3 of you could have been killed quite easily. Plus you letting the obviously insecure Finer Points guy use your channel to show his disdain for Cirrus pilots takes A LOT away from your channel, which I previously enjoyed. It’s like you let him drag you into preachy BS that is divisive and serves no one well. But hey, it is your channel, so divide away, I suppose!
@TheFlyingZulu
@TheFlyingZulu Год назад
@@SoCalFlyingMonkey I've only flown in c172 so I was usually always slower or the same speed of other aircraft. My instructor always informed me to fly behind any faster aircraft that was coming in on a straight in final.
@kenkirby2428
@kenkirby2428 Год назад
You were both being jerks, sounds like the Cirrus was first to call in with his intentions assuming he did his 10 mile call that you didn’t hear. You two also did the aggressive pattern entry instead of the normal cross over the top 500 feet above the pattern and then teardrop entry. Did you do the aggressive entry just to get in front of the straight in traffic? Why turn in front and increase your risk? Poor flying on your part!
@dfghjkl501
@dfghjkl501 Год назад
Was just at the airport today watching a Cirrus owner make an ass of himself, tune into my favorite RU-vidr to see another one 😂😂😂
@chrismurphy8071
@chrismurphy8071 Год назад
Think it was the 210 who was making issues for clicks
@GlensHangar
@GlensHangar Год назад
I've noticed the straight in approach at non-towered airports is becoming ore and more common - and when you call out the straight in pilots (alerting them to other traffic established in the pattern) they become indignant. Like we're all supposed to clear the way for them. I was taught that if there was any traffic in the pattern at all (anywhere in the pattern), that straight in was a no-go and that you should join the pattern. It was also stressed that even when there was no traffic on the radio or visible, you should still join the pattern because there could be NORDO traffic.
@paulbrunner1818
@paulbrunner1818 Год назад
On my PRACTICE IFR approaches, that typically have a long straight-in, I always announce position/intention along with TRAFFIC PERMITTING.
@GlenAndFriendsCooking
@GlenAndFriendsCooking Год назад
@@paulbrunner1818 Plain English position reports? OR IFR gobbledygook that none of the VFR pilots in the pattern understand?
@jrod_pilot_miami
@jrod_pilot_miami Год назад
Isn’t this pretty much the same discussion as the Piper twin and Cessna 172 midair collision in CA? Dude calls a 20-mile straight-in final and expects all traffic to move out of the way for him.
@paulbrunner1818
@paulbrunner1818 Год назад
@@GlenAndFriendsCooking Of course, plain English. As stated, position/intention, traffic permitting.
@robertmcdonald3475
@robertmcdonald3475 Год назад
@@GlenAndFriendsCooking No as a CFII I teach that when flying an IFR approach we either call out the known VFR reporting points - or a time that we are estimating the field. So its clear for the VFR pilots.
@paulbrunner1818
@paulbrunner1818 Год назад
Good discussion about decision making in adverse conditions, including IFR, and terrain.
@jriff_dk
@jriff_dk Год назад
I really don't feel great about your decision to turn base when you knew that there was another plane on final. Listening to his radio calls, it was apparent to me that he was going to continue and I don't see how turning base anyway was a better decision than extending downwind until he passed you. Yes, you would have been out of gliding range but in my mind, that risk is lower than the possibility of a midair collision. I'm very open to counter arguments!
@jrod_pilot_miami
@jrod_pilot_miami Год назад
One hundred percent agree. You can survive an engine out on downwind. You can’t survive a mid-air collision.
@HairHelmet
@HairHelmet Год назад
They turned final with the traffic in sight and with good communication with the cirrus. The cirrus said “straight in traffic permitting” but did not alter course or slow down when traffic did not permit which was stated by the downwind aircraft. I’d agree that it wouldn’t have been safe if they didn’t have either visual or communication. Playing chicken in the pattern with a cirrus posturing on the radio…. Maybe we’re all better off with a confrontation on the ground.
@robertwearing8132
@robertwearing8132 Год назад
This is essentially the exact situation a few weeks ago with the mid-air incident in California
@HairHelmet
@HairHelmet Год назад
@@robertwearing8132 the California incident was different..er.... The 152 in the pattern wasn't getting clear feedback from the straight in twin along with the 152 only calling final and not base (or other way around?) In this situation they had visual, radio, and the ability to take evasive action which the cirrus did by slowing down. The cirrus was also further out than his 'final' call implied.
@insanomonkey
@insanomonkey Год назад
Running VFR through weather while justifying it every few minutes by saying the cookie cutter "we have a few outs", aggressively cutting in front of traffic instead of extending downwind, and countless other things this dude has done in past videos. It's only a matter of time until I see this guy on an accident report
@Mahgar
@Mahgar Год назад
I used to fly straight in on my home airfield (non-towered) LHBS, nevertheless when there is any traffic I made it a new habit to join the pattern. Much better to get some understanding the position of the other aircraft and join accordingly.
@ahmadsamadzai8255
@ahmadsamadzai8255 Год назад
I did my 1st solo in the 172 today. When I turned downwind from crosswind a twin turbo prop called in a 10 mile final. I was thinking ok we're good. When I made my base call he called the 5 mile final. I went full oh shit moment and Watsonville incident came to my mind. When I turned final he was 2 miles out. I hurried that 172 in and did a shortfield landing and cleared as fast as I could. phew!
@jimkirkendall2483
@jimkirkendall2483 Год назад
You may want to consider extending your downwind in that situation. I do that frequently, but then again, I'm flying a Tri-Pacer, pedaling as fast as I can.
@callmemimivlog2617
@callmemimivlog2617 Год назад
we all live by the number... if any pilots on straight in final like 10 miles out below and im on downwind i let them go first! i will just extend my downwind since i love flying anyway!
@danielneubauer8424
@danielneubauer8424 Год назад
Love that you explained the correct options to enter the pattern. Always be careful and expect the unexpected from others. You may be right… but dead right doesn’t feel any better.
@tonysaunders9655
@tonysaunders9655 Год назад
wise words
@Convair_F-106
@Convair_F-106 Год назад
I would have extended downwind and not cut in front of the cirrus. Was the cirrus stupid? Yes, but I'd rather be safe and let the idiot land first then just fly the pattern and be right. Also if you have already some coming in blazing on a straight in despite traffic being in the pattern that tells you already about the attitude of that pilot, I'd be especially careful in that situation.
@danstanavich
@danstanavich Год назад
Showing pictures from the handbook to show you're right and he is wrong doesn't justify making an unsafe (I would say stubborn) decision in the air. If he is not willing to give way then you should have. Fly neighborly even if they don't, land safely and talk to him on the ground about it if you're actually bothered enough to do so.
@chrismurphy8071
@chrismurphy8071 Год назад
I didn’t see the photo of dive bombing in to cut off a plane on 2 mile final
@davidhendrix5171
@davidhendrix5171 Год назад
the plane at the lower altitude rules
@davidt8087
@davidt8087 2 месяца назад
Yup. They made an error here. Unless he's on long final, if he's 2 mile final and your downwind you extend for straight in approaches. Yea it sucks but that's the proper way, and lower traffic has right of way.
@Franco910.
@Franco910. Год назад
How rare a cirrus cutting others off in the pattern.
@dfghjkl501
@dfghjkl501 Год назад
Probably proceeded to drive all the way home in his BMW and use the blinker 0 times.
@av8or971
@av8or971 Год назад
most of them have the " i am rich and fly a cirrus, i can do what i want" snobbass attitude
@MrSixstring2k
@MrSixstring2k Год назад
Lol….everyone had the same cirrus experience or is it just me.
@aed2867
@aed2867 Год назад
If you could afford a Cirrus, you would have one. No need to bash everyone that has a nicer aircraft.
@av8or971
@av8or971 Год назад
@@aed2867 incorrect there are alot more options out there other than a cirrus.
@eyesupaviation
@eyesupaviation Год назад
Carrier pigeons- the OG Twitter!! Absolutely beautiful views in the last stretch there before landing.
@goincd3
@goincd3 Год назад
As much as the Cirrus pilot was in the wrong and being a douche, Jason let his own ego get in the way and made a really short approach, turning in front of the Cirrus he knew was much faster. Not sure if he was trying to teach the guy a lesson or what, but it was a bad choice, I think.
@callmemimivlog2617
@callmemimivlog2617 Год назад
yup sure jason did! "i am right and i am doing this because this is the law" for sure that was singing in his head when he was making downwind to base to final!
@arashhosseini7517
@arashhosseini7517 Год назад
You should extend downwind
@don.yarbrough
@don.yarbrough Год назад
To echo an earlier comment, it does seem like more folks are flying straight-in VFR approaches lately. A few weeks ago, I was flying into Friday Harbor, and joined the pattern with 3 airplanes already established in an acceptable way, and 2 folks called straight-in approaches with 4 of us in the pattern - totally bonkers after Watsonville. Glad nobody was hurt here, and although some folks have a sour taste in their mouth because of what feels like bravado on the part of Jason, I appreciate his advocacy for doing things the correct and safe way.
@thefamilythatfliestogether
@thefamilythatfliestogether Год назад
I am a big proponent of the straight in approach with conditions. The obvious conditions are of an empty pattern, no one talking on the radio, no one on ads-b and a clear day where I can see the pattern empty with my eyes. If somehow you hit someone on your straight in with previously listed conditions then you were just as likely to hit someone flying over the airport and entering the pattern. Now if the previous conditions don't exist and the pattern has other aircraft I start negotiations over the radio to make it work out in the favor of straight in if possible. Your main tool to making it work besides negotiations is generally just to slow way down. This is even possible in my 310 when I drop gear and 15 degrees of flaps. At that point the 310 is no faster than a 172. It's not hard for the aircraft already in the pattern to work in your straight in when I am practically hovering out there at 110 mph 😉
@mrb13676
@mrb13676 Год назад
so you guys were there. you know the timing and i respect both of you as responsible pilots. if i’d been in that situation myself? i’d have done a 360 on downwind. simple, easy manoeuvre buys you two minutes for straight in guy to get onto final and you can slot in behind him. yes, he was wrong and you were in the right. but it doesn’t help if you’re both in a smoking hole short of the field. i’m really glad that where i fly (south africa) long straight in approaches are not allowed. everyone joins overhead and fits into the pattern. if you’re doing a VMC termination of an instrument procedure, conditions are VMc and you can fly the pattern. if they’re IMC then do the rnav because there won’t be visual traffic in the pattern.
@jrod_pilot_miami
@jrod_pilot_miami Год назад
I have to agree with the unpopular opinion of some of the other pilots on here. Cutting off the Cirrus was absolutely the wrong call here. You can survive an engine out on downwind. You can’t survive a mid-air collision. Shocking to see this from a very popular Aviation RU-vidr and CFI. That said, we all make mistakes and hopefully acknowledge and learn from them. Still love this channel and the content.
@toneale
@toneale Год назад
Disagree wholeheartedly. The recommendations are there for a reason. Without them we are in a free-for-all and the risks of mid-airs increase. The Cirrus could have slowed down much earlier to allow for these guys to land first.
@Kenriko
@Kenriko Год назад
They didn't cut him off he should never have been coming straight in knowing the other traffic was in the pattern. He could have deconflicted easily by just entering the pattern instead of continuing his straight in approach.
@jrod_pilot_miami
@jrod_pilot_miami Год назад
@@toneale of course your reply would be highlighted. You missed the point completely. They were both wrong. Yes, Cirrus shouldn’t have entered the pattern straight in. But the Cessna increased the risk of a midair by turning in front of a plane that as evidenced by the video itself was only 3 miles away (probably less by the time they turned final). There would’ve been no midair if Cessna had extended downwind. You could be right and be dead.
@jrod_pilot_miami
@jrod_pilot_miami Год назад
@@Kenriko could’ve, would’ve, should’ve. That’s not the point here. For all we know, the Cirrus pilot has 60 hrs under his belt. The Cessna cockpit had likely upwards of 2,000 hrs. This shouldn’t have been more than just an annoyance on their part. As I said in another comment, both are in the wrong. The only reason we’re not talking about this on the Blancolirio channel is pure luck.
@mafp22w
@mafp22w Год назад
One key point everyone seems to miss…SoCal Flying Monkey had traffic in sight. There is nothing wrong with using CRM to determine if there is a conflict with traffic.
@BlissfullyFun
@BlissfullyFun Год назад
This is an interesting topic. I fly at a busy non towered airport, which is also used for Instrumented approaches. It is not an uncommon thing to have someone call a 7, 5, 3 mile final Instrumented Approach, which ultimately disrupts an already full pattern. To me it’s really no different if it’s a straight in VFR approach or IFR because the result is the same. FIgure the plane is there doing what it’s going to do. Do I like it, no not really, but it’s sort of a common theme at my home airport. I also think in some cases I have found my self calling a VFR straight in, but only if the chance nobody is in the pattern, or I have no visual of anyone there in the pattern. In this specific scenario, with a clear mind, would have possibly just extended my downwind a tad further, or until the straight in plane passed parallel to my position before turning base. Do you think with your long flight, and maybe/possibly some fatigue was setting in you were just eager to get down? Just my 2 cents for the masses.
@chriskroeker1889
@chriskroeker1889 Год назад
Cirrus must have had a different definition of “traffic permitting”.
@davidendsley2391
@davidendsley2391 Год назад
He is probably an airline pilot and is used to straight in landing, and forgot about GA flying, still thinks he’s in big tin
@murrayreed5282
@murrayreed5282 Год назад
You guys have a lot of guts keeping this video up. I think it is helpful to see how mid-airs can happen. We can all learn from this video.
@tonyharnett3169
@tonyharnett3169 Год назад
Straight in at non-towered airports is always a bad idea if for no other reason than the possibility of NORDO traffic ,,, I was actually getting a little anxious watching this ,,, glad it worked out!
@halepauhana153
@halepauhana153 Год назад
Here in British Columbia I always fly midfield and join the pattern at non-towered airports, because you never know if there might be deer (or other wildlife) on the runway, maybe someone on a lawnmower beside the runway, etc.
@diegus012
@diegus012 Год назад
Can’t think of a better example of how both parties can be wrong at the same time. While the maneuver was legal, it was hardly wise, especially in light of the nonchalant attitude that you can see/hear during the 60 seconds before the turn to base. I still appreciate you showing us this on the video instead of redacting it - the dialogue is has sparked is extremely relevant! 🙌🏼
@SoCalFlyingMonkey
@SoCalFlyingMonkey Год назад
I'm glad there is a lot of discussion around VFR straight ins at non-towered airports the last few days. :) Definitely want to shine a light on this complex problem.
@pilotbsinthesky3443
@pilotbsinthesky3443 Год назад
Only time I’ve used straight in is during training activities or after making calls and checking ADSB that no one is near the field. I am very aware at the non towered I fly into on a regular basis in the mountains as some Jet traffic do use a more straight in approaches due to terrain. It is insane how many arrogant pilots are in the air and expect others to get out of their way. My last CFI was constantly on the radio barking at pilots who were cutting his students off at various points in the pattern. But a great lesson for me to NEVER assume anyone will ever follow the rules in the air.
@magnetoclash
@magnetoclash Год назад
You were in right. But if there was even a slight chance for a deviation or collision, get add power, get flaps off, and extend downwind and let the cirrus come in. Always best to preserve your life over your ego and correct knowledge of standard operating procedures.
@ga1205
@ga1205 Год назад
exactly this.
@av8or971
@av8or971 Год назад
The same can be said to the Cirrus pilot. He did not need to add the little snippet about, you cut me off, so i am going around
@mcorrive12
@mcorrive12 Год назад
FAA says good pilots following recommended procedures shall yield to jerks.
@davisandotube
@davisandotube Год назад
You can extend downwind without un configuring the aircraft, it’s not a go around maneuver, more like a slow flight. If I encounter a guy like this cirrus, even though traffic pattern aircraft is in the right, I would extend downwind to avoid a disaster like the one at Watsonville. I’m based at a busy D airspace KTMB and extending downwind is a VERY common thing, not big deal.
@Mikinct
@Mikinct Год назад
Ever heard of "Blind Spots" while flying planes?
@md4droid
@md4droid Год назад
Another great video, sir. Thanks for sharing. I had a similar issue on my last x-country: while landing at an unfamiliar ap, I entered the pattern the exact way you just showed... there was someone on the RNAV approach... I heard the 10 mile call as I was approaching the ap, didn't hear another call until I was about to turn base, then I hear: "XXX, that's not a good idea, I'm on a 3 mile final", so I did the 'courteous' thing and made a right 360. At that point, right of way makes no difference, I gave way to the straight-in traffic just to avoid a bad situation. As a very low hour pilot, I'd rather continue learning than be another statistic. Love watching you two fly together. I can imagine it's a pretty situationally aware cockpit. 😉
@DWBurns
@DWBurns Год назад
You did the right thing by allowing some jerk to continue on doing the wrong thing.
@md4droid
@md4droid Год назад
@@DWBurns not sure whether right or wrong is the case, I just know I'm still here, so I did the 'safe' thing for me. 😊
@dozermedic18
@dozermedic18 Год назад
The AC on an approach should still yield to pattern traffic. That is unless they are IFR, though if conditions allow they should still circle to land giving way to pattern traffic. But I’d say you did the right thing. I’ve had others insert themselves on me and it’s a creepy feeling. Always better safe.
@quikstop4347
@quikstop4347 Год назад
It unfortunately often seems to come down to a game of aeronautical “chicken”. In addition to be a commercial pilot, I am a professional road driver and the case is no clearer in point than here - defensive driving (or flying) means instigating actions earlier rather than later. Anticipate, slow down ahead of time/widen the circuit/conduct an orbit, being the “smarter” pilot often means coming in second, and demonstrating a higher level of airmanship. The bonus here is you get to tell the tale afterwards... love the C210, did the majority of my SE flight time in them and had the luxury of taking a P210 on a few trips to the flight levels...
@jrod_pilot_miami
@jrod_pilot_miami Год назад
^^ This!
@dafyddtaylor6413
@dafyddtaylor6413 Год назад
If there’s traffic in the pattern. Don’t be a rooster ( other names are available) and go straight in. Just join the traffic, join overhead standard and be safe. I was flying once and a pc12 was coming in. Tower said he would hold the pattern traffic for him to come straight in, but the pc12 said no I’ll join the traffic and come in “in turn. Great airmanship.
@Dominyclt
@Dominyclt Год назад
Cirrus is 100% right in this situation. Traffic on final has a right way. It was very easy for you to extend the downwind.
@charlesrice1540
@charlesrice1540 Год назад
By that logic (traffic that declares they are "on final X miles from the airport", has the right of way) the other pilot had the right of way at his first call on "5 mile final" regardless of the number of planes in the pattern. A plane that is midfield downwind (~10 seconds from turning base) has to wait to turn base until they see the clown who called dibs on the runway by saying "5 mile final"? At ~80kts, the Cirrus was something like 3 minutes out. The honest radio call would have been "Airplane in the pattern, I don't care where you are, the runway is mine for the next 4 minutes, stay out of my way" Only you'd sound like a complete a-hole if you said that, so you say "5 mile final" If there are ANY other planes at the airport, fly the pattern. As simple as that. It'll cost maybe 120 seconds of incremental flight time.
@Dominyclt
@Dominyclt Год назад
@@charlesrice1540 that is the logic. 45 degree entree to the pattern is an advisory, traffic on final has a right of way and it is a rule. In this situation cirrus is configured, established and stabilized on final. Who has more difficulty to adjust, aircraft on final or downwind?
@aed2867
@aed2867 Год назад
Finally someone with the guts to call these guys out! The Cirrus-bashing is really unnecessary. You revealed A LOT about yourself by your behavior. A guy can fly wherever plane he wants to buy and if he can afford a Cirrus, good for him! Maybe he was practicing an ILS approach. He has a right to determine how he wants to land. You could have simply extended your downwind and set a much better example.
@charlesrice1540
@charlesrice1540 Год назад
@@Dominyclt "Configured, established, stabilized" - On a VFR day I check those boxes at the FAF 12 miles away from the MAP, so I have the right of way over the 5 planes in the pattern when I'm 6 to 9 minutes away? I mean, I called RNAV RWY X, full stop landing. Is there an FAR that specifies 5 mile final as the point at which you have the Right of Way (Well, you and the guy 250ft below you who is also doing a straight in, but not making radio calls because he knows the area really well and does NORDO straight-ins all the time) "Difficulty to adjust"? You mean "touch the flap lever and throttle" so that a plane 10 seconds from turning base and who would be on the ground 90 seconds before you has to touch his flap lever and throttle instead of you, and land 90 seconds after you not you 90 seconds after him? If there are ANY other planes at the airport, fly the pattern. As simple as that.
@Dominyclt
@Dominyclt Год назад
@@charlesrice1540 except in this situation Cirrus was making radio calls and there is no distance on final regulation. I wish the distance would be specified. Look, I am not suggesting we should all forget the 45 degree pattern entry and switch to straight in approaches. What I am saying that if everyone is communicating to cut the aircraft on final approach is a bad call. Example, I use visual approach into unfamiliar airports sometimes. I would make radio calls and say on 8 miles straight in if possible. If there is a student pilot in a pattern or multiple aircraft in the pattern I would readjust, but this was an asshole move.
@Coops777
@Coops777 Год назад
IMHO, there is a human factor operating here. Jason, you admitted you were fatigued and would not have embarked on the journey leg had you been without the support of Socal FM. Correct me if I'm wrong but the sight of the airport was a relief to you both after a long and tedious journey requiring much concentration. I can't help but think you would have ordinarily extended base for the Cirrus had you not been so exhausted. The take away for me here is that when we are tired, we need to be aware that we might just take easier options and cast aside some good practices we have exercised over and over as pilots. In this case it was to positively sight and communicate/confirm landing order and also taking the time to allow an aircraft on an established approach (even though he was in the wrong and also that his speed was very high) to continue that approach and allow your tired self the same grace of an easy approach which would have seen you give way to him. I don't like what the Cirrus did but I think as the CFI, you should have set a better example. Having said all, I love your channel.
@rmaracallo
@rmaracallo Год назад
I probably would have extended my downwind or executed a right 360 to join the left downwind again. You definitely had the right of way but when other people are making poor decision I tend to air in the side of caution.
@IzzyFlys1
@IzzyFlys1 Год назад
There is so many pros and cons of decision personally I would have done slow flight or a right 360 on downwind but I am also super nice in the pattern and will always do this or extend even if person was on 5 mile final
@mafp22w
@mafp22w Год назад
I would never, ever do a right 360 and take the chance of flying head on to faster traffic flying a wider pattern.
@chrisc161
@chrisc161 Год назад
Thank you sharing and no I stay away from straight in approaches unless it’s some airport in the middle of no where with no traffic.
@ibnewton8951
@ibnewton8951 Год назад
Hey, you guys landed in California about 2.5 miles from my house! Great channel BTW!
@ga1205
@ga1205 Год назад
Should the Cirrus have slowed down and let you guys in? Yes. Did he, seems to have. Should Jason have kept an eye on him and come in behind? I'd think that would have been more prudent and better ADM. I find it's better to keep the idiots in front of me so I can see what they're going to do. I'm not often (or ever) defending a Cirrus, and not here either, but I'd rather be right than right and dead. Maybe it was the editing of the situation, but I wasn't impressed by someone with that much experience playing the, "I'm doing it the FAA way" over the practicality of keeping someone who isn't in clear sight with controllable (by you) traffic separation.
@TheFlyingZulu
@TheFlyingZulu Год назад
That's what I think also... keep the idiots and fools in front of me in the pattern. haha.
@europeter101
@europeter101 Год назад
Y’all repeated the same mistakes as in the mid air in Watsonville. Announced position but did not effectively communicate with each other and deconflict. Don’t matter if you have the right away if you’re dead. He was not supposed to do a straight in but we need to communicate directly with each other and deconflict. Announcing positions doesn’t do that effectively and turning in front of an aircraft zooming in on final probably not the best no matter who’s right.
@mafp22w
@mafp22w Год назад
A HUGE difference. They saw the Cirrus.
@_Stark
@_Stark Год назад
I do straight in approaches all the time. Similar to the Cirrus pilot I throw in something about ‘traffic permitting’. I also approach at 120 knots until about 2 miles out. If I hear traffic in the pattern I will slow down or 360 to not cause them to have to change their pattern. If I’m going to a fly-in at an uncontrolled field or the pattern is full I’ll go ahead and deviate to fly a standard pattern. In general I tend to give way to other traffic rather than increase the risk. In this scenario I would have extended my down wind and came in behind him. That way I remain in control of avoidance. FAA recommendations are great, but their not regulatory and you can’t expect everyone to abide by them and ultimately you’re only in control of you’re own aircraft and should have your safety be the #1 concern.
@mattb.1146
@mattb.1146 Год назад
One thing I like to do when I find myself with straight in aircraft as CRJs are always flying into my airport while I'm up with students, is to go into slow flight in the downwind.
@Mikinct
@Mikinct Год назад
I suppose to each their own- if its more important to land with possible of a mid air collision or simply extending downwind to live another day. "out of glide range" is not an issue with a working engine compared to the option of colliding with a fast plane on short final. Here things worked out fine otherwise there's the possibility of watching this on Probable Cause youtube channel. my 2 cents on the field :-)
@rwellford1
@rwellford1 Год назад
Eric, your work is wonderful and it exposes all kinds of folks to the experience of general aviation. As a hobbyist videographer, I appreciate the need for some editing room dramatic effect. But please release an uncut version of this approach and landing so we can all judge for ourselves. It’s an important conversation and people on both sides need to dismount from their high horses. Let’s point fewer fingers, let’s own our mistakes, and let’s LEARN what this lesson has to teach us all.
@jamesprice6381
@jamesprice6381 Год назад
May i ask the backing music @ 4:18? Thank yo so so much! Happi. Flying!
@deernation9326
@deernation9326 Год назад
Jason, you said on Probable Cause with Dan that you would not teach this the way you flew it, why not? (Do as I say not as I do?) Furthermore, with my experience at Salinas, and Monterey airports there is no way a controller would allow down wind traffic No1 to land with traffic on a 3 mile straight in final approach. Be safe!
@michaelfisher2574
@michaelfisher2574 Год назад
Defensive flying is like defensive driving. You need to be the one to control your situation and communicate and extend your down wind. It is okay to define and confirm what the other is doing. The cirrus guy obviously is nervous to configure and fly the cirrus at pattern speeds. He probably does not like the flight characteristics and profile of the cirrus a slow speeds and it makes him nervous enough to try to race you to final. So get out of his way. Besides that 210 with 10* on the flap and gear down is just like flying a 172 in pattern, so just extend. Also, I am a lucky to be a third generation GA pilot. I was taught by my dad to give way to T-storms by 40 miles due to outflows. Even at 25 miles a T-storm outflow can get you and bend or break you a/c.
@glendavis1266
@glendavis1266 9 месяцев назад
This reminds me of a trip from St. Louis to Joliet Illinois while between cloud layers and we could see bottoms of above clouds and down below to the top of the intervening layer it was raining so hard it was unbelievable. And in a brand new C150 with 5 hours on the clock. Dumb and I was with a CFI with a instrument rating. Not enough instruments…year 1969.
@acirinelli
@acirinelli Год назад
Once that guy was inside 3 miles, no chance I would have turned.
@hughjarse4205
@hughjarse4205 Год назад
100% agree
@TheFinerPoints
@TheFinerPoints Год назад
Well -- the math for me was 3 miles out at 90 knots is 2 minutes. He was a full two minutes behind us at the edge of the airspace. We were abeam the numbers and doing a short approach, there was plenty of space. Once the Cirrus realized everybody wasn't moving for him, he slowed down to normal speeds and everything was fine. It's not like he had to go around, there was plenty of space. I don't think I should have to fly way beyond the gliding distance from the runway and accept that additional risk just because he's flying 140 knots in the pattern and assuming everybody will move.
@hughjarse4205
@hughjarse4205 Год назад
@@TheFinerPoints In a recent video you were just talking about estimating distance from the cockpit over the ground. What if it was 2.5 miles or 2.2 miles or 1.9 miles? Not only were you trusting him on that 3 mile estimate, you were trusting him not to plow into you. I'm glad it worked out this time. Me? I don't place myself in a situation where I need to trust another pilot. I'd rather risk the glide distance than risk the collision. To each his own.
@hughjarse4205
@hughjarse4205 Год назад
Ground school app chapter: "I don't think I should have to fly beyond gliding distance just because another guy is flying 140 knots in the pattern". Future accident report: "Why you should fly beyond gliding distance when another guy is flying 140 knots in the pattern."
@cgripp256
@cgripp256 Год назад
@@TheFinerPoints If he was flying 140kts why did your math use 90 kts? Wouldn’t that have put him 1:15 behind you vs 2:00?
@PilotBusaKaine
@PilotBusaKaine Год назад
Australia seems to be very different with straight in approaches compared to the US, for here, Regulation 91.395 requires a pilot conducting a straight-in approach to give way to any other aircraft flying in the circuit pattern.
@jimiemick
@jimiemick Год назад
Not that they like to listen to the rules anyway, specially guys doing meat drops.
@Jeffpower-
@Jeffpower- Год назад
In my opinion straight in are fine, of course depending on the traffic on the pattern. Usually I rather give away for someone on a straight in as it’s much safer than cause an accident because someone is in a hurry to land an airplane. But that’s just my own personal preference.
@davidcollier3604
@davidcollier3604 Год назад
I do straight in VFR approaches on occasion. Usually, I do them as part of an instrument approach procedure. If I can't make it work out then I'll just join the upwind and try and work my self in to the flow. This is what the Cirrus should have done, and maybe he ultimately did.
@elimckenzie7095
@elimckenzie7095 Год назад
The Cirrus guy is 100% wrong on this one. Straight in only works when it would cause no traffic conflicts. He even says "traffic permitting", which it was not. Good Reference on the Watsonville crash. While tragic, it is a hard reminder of how much pilots need to follow the "see and avoid" method. Pretty wild to come blazing into the pattern and act entitled and annoyed when you were the one causing the conflict.
@ga1205
@ga1205 Год назад
I think the response should have been, since non-standard phraseology was already in play, "Traffic does not permit. Enter the pattern behind us." Barring that, keep an eye on the ones that might hit you... better to be behind them.
@cptburris
@cptburris Год назад
@@ga1205 exactly... work it out so no one dies.
@Kenriko
@Kenriko Год назад
@@ga1205 Yes I'm not sure why they didn't say it more explicitly that mr straight in should discontinue his approach.
@richardpalm3202
@richardpalm3202 Год назад
@@Kenriko AC 90-66B says "Do not correct other pilots on frequency..."
@Kenriko
@Kenriko Год назад
@@richardpalm3202 ​ Section 9.2 of that same document. "Collision Avoidance. The pilot in command’s (PIC) primary responsibility is to see and avoid other aircraft and to help them see and avoid his or her aircraft. Keep lights and strobes on. The use of any traffic pattern procedure does not alter the responsibility of each pilot to see and avoid other aircraft." If the FAA wants to have a talk after the fact because some Cirrus straight in got his nickers in a bunch for getting called out on the radio I INVITE that conversation.
@MichaelVanHeemst
@MichaelVanHeemst Год назад
Yeah, you guys should have extended your downwind
@TheFinerPoints
@TheFinerPoints Год назад
Why? We'd be accepting additional risk. He was 2 minutes out at the edge of the airspace. Once he slowed down to normal speeds there was plenty of room, it's not like he had to go around.
@flyingATC
@flyingATC Год назад
@@TheFinerPoints I have absolutely no opinion on whether you should or shouldn't have turned. I trust that you both are skilled and competent pilots and made a well informed decision. My only question is, you've used the "edge of the airspace" phrase a couple of times. What do you mean by that? By the way, your videos are very well done and informative.
@GlensHangar
@GlensHangar Год назад
I've already left a comment - but the end of this video still left me uneasy... As someone who also makes YT videos on a couple of different channels; I understand the need to leave some things out in order to get the flow right. So I have no idea if some radio calls between you and the Cirrus were left out? Or if we heard the sum total of communications? Was this an un-towered airport with an MF or with a Unicom? In any event I feel there definitely needed to more communication between pilots - the Cirrus was in the wrong, but what good does that do if he had hit you on final? There's no way I would have turned in front of him, no matter how in the right I was. I would have let him know directly that he needed to join the pattern; here at least pilots will work out the order between us. In Canada straight in is only allowed at uncontrolled airports with an MF (Mandatory Frequency - different than a Unicom) and then only when no one else is in the pattern.
@SoCalFlyingMonkey
@SoCalFlyingMonkey Год назад
More communication is always a good thing to get a clear plan going amongst airplanes in the pattern.
@kasm10
@kasm10 Год назад
Glen makes a great point!
@jackbrainassociates8806
@jackbrainassociates8806 Год назад
Nice flight, I’m not sure why you didn’t use the best tool at your disposal. The P210 loves the low flight levels it goes faster gives you more glide distance and you probably would have been on top of the overcast with the cells clearly visible. Thats just my opinion you guys did fine good decisions.
@clickster1883
@clickster1883 Год назад
If you saw the Cirrus driver on the ground, I hope he didn’t cop an attitude w you. Fly safe!
@boardin12
@boardin12 Год назад
Another way to look at it is in a standard pattern and descent there is a 3 mile descent until touchdown. When you are abeam your touchdown point on the downwind you are 3 miles from touchdown( 1 mile downwind past the touchdown point, 1 mile base, and 1 mile final). If the Cirrus was on a 3 mile straight in that would be the same as the Cirrus being abeam the touchdown point. So to be turning to final at that point would be plenty of time. Also to the comments about how you should always do a go around if there is the slightest chance of a deviation, there is a higher chance of there being a deviation when an airplane is holding short of a runway while you are on final than an airplane being 2 miles behind you when you are on short final.
@davidd6635
@davidd6635 Год назад
Straight In at non towered airports ONLY if straight in aircraft has declared an Emergency! There might be someone without radio communication in the pattern and miss your hot rodding straight in, ie. Watsonville recently. Thanks for the ride along. I learn something every time viewing your channels.
@bretheidkamp
@bretheidkamp Год назад
I’ve had this same thing happen but with 3 of us in the pattern. Forcing a straight in. Also recently had a cirrus enter in front of us on the crosswind(!) when we were climbing out after takeoff. It’s becoming the Wild West, I don’t know how other pilots are thinking it’s a good idea to muscle their way in and try to force pattern traffic out of their way. Or enter on whatever leg is convenient.
@SkylaneGuy
@SkylaneGuy Год назад
Since you asked...I don't land straight in at uncontrolled fields, ever. I'll enter upwind and fly the pattern every time just to get set up, make sure the runway is clear, etc. I think it's the safe thing to do, even if you don't hear any other traffic. It only takes 90 seconds and I like flying, so why not?
@watashiandroid8314
@watashiandroid8314 Год назад
From us who fly out of the small magenta airports, thank you.
@scottmoseley5122
@scottmoseley5122 Год назад
Well said and I was always pulling for you even though Roger was the fan favorite.
@morthomer5804
@morthomer5804 Год назад
It's always more challenging when flying with a Brian
@piperdakotaflyr
@piperdakotaflyr Год назад
As a low hour pilot, I’ve been taught to learn from others mistakes. Given the recent tragic mid air collisions a straight in approach after communication of another plane in the pattern is just a bad idea. I would ask, with your comment of “that guy is screaming in on us” would you have aborted the landing in the downwind or extended the base for a go around? I respect Jason’s experience, but from the video it looked like I’m here, that other guy can watch out for me.
@DWBurns
@DWBurns Год назад
I cannot comment on what the stars of this video did. I will give you advice from a person who has been a pilot since the 1980s and has worked in a large fractional ownership airline for over 20 years. It is never a good idea to challenge anyone in an airplane. If you feel so inclined it is not totally professional but sometimes necessary that you point out someone is being a jerk on the radio but then always yield the right of way to the jerk. I have a huge luxury that most people in aviation don’t, I don’t care what the Hobbs meter says as I own the airplane so a few extra minutes does not adversely affect me financially in the short term. I understand that for most people out there an extra six minutes is an extra $20 and I sympathize with them so if tucking tail and extending my downwind keeps my airplane in one piece I don’t mind using an extra half gallon of gas. So if you want some advice from an old pilot, never challenge a jerk when you’re in an airplane. Also if you are at a training airport and it is clearly a student pilot is flying, be polite, be understanding and be kind. Offer advice both to the student pilot and other pilots in the air how everyone can help the student pilot fit in to the traffic flow. You are not air traffic control but helpful hints here and there are always welcome.
@Mikinct
@Mikinct Год назад
Sad thing was both pilots at Watsonville were in communication with each other, knew where they both should be around airport but still managed a mid air collision. Simply reporting position isn't enough- seems like majority of pilots are listening on "autopilot" meaning they are simply like a Robot setting flaps, lowering landing gear as they've done a million times and actually "Loose situation awareness" goes gray.
@flutetubamorg
@flutetubamorg Год назад
We have people flying straight in approaches at our un-towered airport quite often. Right into the middle of student circuits. They always seem to think their IFR practice approaches negates any need to follow VFR patterns. Even though they are jerks, I will almost always extend and let them get in front because I would rather not get run into, also 9 out of 10 times they cancel their approach and don't touchdown.
@kasm10
@kasm10 Год назад
Guys thanks for publishing this. It’s putting a spotlight on an aspect of my training that’s perfectly timed and sorely needed as I will solo in the next couple of weeks. Thanks again
@jimkirkendall2483
@jimkirkendall2483 Год назад
Congrats! Fly safe.
@dono4579
@dono4579 Год назад
The cirrus was listening as he said “looking for traffic”… I think he was hoping to sneak in front of you…. I cannot fault either of you… because I enjoy watching you both so much… That being said …after that last pattern crash, I will be negotiating all of these…with clear Communication. “cirrus we are in the pattern …please enter the pattern or slow your approach to allow us to land…please reply”. If he says “nope” then I go around, but most pilots are cool and will slow down” Keep making content you are both great.
@mafp22w
@mafp22w Год назад
I agree with you. I think the Cirrus was just hoping to force the Cessna to extend downwind. In the old west the cirrus pilot deserved a fist fight.
@chrisschack9716
@chrisschack9716 Год назад
Better to use the pattern as a rule. Mind you, I've seen people get totally confused about just which pattern they're joining ... they'll cross midfield from the north for left downwind runway 8, but they're really on left downwind runway 26!
@jimjernigan3670
@jimjernigan3670 Год назад
Better to yield and stay alive than to be right and dead. With you in a high wing and him in a low wing, you're just taking too big a risk to pull in front of him on final. In my not-so humble opinion.
@taxedenoughalready
@taxedenoughalready Год назад
My opinion…straight in is fine when little or no traffic and longish well maintained runway. For shorter out of the way destinations I like to take a look first.
@ghostrobinson1879
@ghostrobinson1879 Год назад
I've enjoyed watching many of your videos with you flying along with your family. I previously watched Dan Gryders channel where he interviewed Mr. Miller. I am a CFI/CFII/MEI and have been teaching since 1999 when I graduated from ERAU; additionally in my 20th year with the USAF as an instructor / evaluator in various airframes. I have to say I was disappointed in the hazardous attitudes displayed by Mr. Miller in his interview with Mr. Gryder. As instructors, we are ambassadors - we have a greater responsibility than others in cultivated a culture of safety. This needs to be a part of everything we do from personal flying to teaching. The perceived arrogance that was exuded during the interview was not the type of personality I want teaching any potential pilot. The inability to admit that the actions taken were not the "most conservative" and did in fact pose a hazard and increased both of your risk. We have to be able to take criticism and learn - in the military and at ERAU we debrief each sortie/flight thoroughly and always try to learn from every flight - without arguing or justifying our actions. Just from the Gryder interview Mr. Miller was - "Anti Authority - didn't want to listen to Gryder/dismissed his input and justified actions by arguing the validity of the straight in; Impulsive - decided to make a short approach without verifying the position of the aircraft on final before making base/final turn; Invulnerable - accidents happen to others not me I always make short approaches whether I know the aircraft on finals position or not; Macho - with a high level of confidence in his ability he took an unneccessary risk by not visually verifying the position of the aircraft on final. These are 4 of the 5 hazardous pilot attitudes we all preach against. Hopefully yall both can learn from this and kudos for putting yourselves out there for criticism. But don't take it as criticism take it as Learning points and takeaways from a thorough debrief.
@jimydoolittle3129
@jimydoolittle3129 Год назад
Again those cirrus pilots 😵‍💫💥
@georgecrothall9411
@georgecrothall9411 Год назад
I would have extended, but I also would have said something like xxxxxx willing to extend, is there a reason that you need the straight in today? Listened to predictable continuation of hazardous attitude and then confirmed I was extending
@joecritch143
@joecritch143 Год назад
In Canada you can only do a straight in at uncontrolled airports if there is an MF with the unicom providing a traffic advisory.
@wedigryan
@wedigryan Год назад
KSGU is non towered with Skywest regional jets constantly coming straight in from the north. As a result it is pretty common practice to have folks coming straight in especially when there is light to no other traffic. I don’t think this is a one size fits all conversation but from what I saw on this video my decision would have been 100% to have extended downwind for the Cirrus.
@SoCalFlyingMonkey
@SoCalFlyingMonkey Год назад
It is definitely not one size fits all.
@tyronealfonso
@tyronealfonso Год назад
The thumbnail basically encapsulates the entire story
@Myfivestarsuccess
@Myfivestarsuccess Год назад
When the straight in says TRAFFIC PERMITTING that means he’ll yield to traffic in the pattern. You guys had the right away. That being said, if you knew he was “screaming in” I would have yielded to the jerk in order to not put myself in jeopardy.
@dbucciar
@dbucciar Год назад
I'm a 100 hour newbie C172 pilot. I would have extended downwind and let the Cirrus scream by. Turning base with another (faster) aircraft on a 2 mile (= about 1 minute) final just doesn't make sense to me.
@dkbrowny
@dkbrowny Год назад
And no one had a problem with Jason ballooning that landing? Maybe unstabilized because he rushed to get down. 🤔 Great series Eric, and thanks for sharing! We can all learn from this.
@TheFinerPoints
@TheFinerPoints Год назад
haha, I had a problem with me ballooning the landing! But the Cirrus was still 1 mile out when we were touching down. There might have been a bad landing but there was no collision hazard. It just looks like that because of this guy's comments on the radio. He just had to slow down a bit
@thomasmackel2836
@thomasmackel2836 Год назад
I can't find a Cirrus in the nearby airspace when you are in the pattern on ADSB exchange. I see 172s and other airplanes on ADBS. Can someone show me how to find the Cirrus screaming (your words) into 34? Did you see the Cirrus on your iPad?
@rjbishop12
@rjbishop12 Год назад
I agree- I smell a fish. Hard to imagine a Cirrus doesn't have ADSB-Out, especially in that airspace (barely underneath the KSMF Charlie airspace), yet it doesn't show up at KMCC at all during the same time they are landing. Is this a hoax? Also an odd coincidence that this was posted after the LiveATC archive was removed due to their 30 day archival deletion policy. Again...I have to wonder....
@joshsaviationadventures
@joshsaviationadventures Год назад
Honestly I don’t mind straight in landings as long as there is no traffic in the pattern. If there is traffic I go right into the pattern and wait my turn.
@user-tm1ow1zw9t
@user-tm1ow1zw9t 10 месяцев назад
If there is traffic in the area, I do the pattern. I try to ask other traffic where as I get near crossing over the airport so that I can space myself.
@salnichols94805
@salnichols94805 Год назад
Given that the conflict between pattern approaches and straight in approaches increases the probability of mid air collisions, why are straight in approaches EVER permitted?
@glennwatson
@glennwatson Год назад
Here in Australia there are very fuel actual rules when it comes to the pattern/circuits, but straight in approaches must yield/give way to all other traffic in the pattern. Everything else is a recommendation.
@bluestarairways5189
@bluestarairways5189 Год назад
Seems like an unsafe decision to cut in front of the Cirrus
@SoCalFlyingMonkey
@SoCalFlyingMonkey Год назад
he was at least 2 miles behind us. I don;t think he could have hit us if he tried.
@ProbableCause-DanGryder
@ProbableCause-DanGryder Год назад
@@SoCalFlyingMonkey “think” vs. “know”
@brianb5594
@brianb5594 Год назад
Hate to say but not untypical for a Cirrus driver. He should have maneuvered for traffic pattern but when faced with that situation, I would have extended downwind as to not risk a potential midair or near miss. I have see many a Cirrus driver come blasting straight in at 120K.
@CaptainReverendo
@CaptainReverendo Год назад
Strange airports no straight in ever. Home drome usually will fly straight in unless there is traffic in the pattern either visually or on the radio. Of course having a tower is preferable but still not a guarantee against potential conflict. Welcome home!
@freakfly23
@freakfly23 Год назад
Lots of folks out there want to have, "But I had the right of way", on their tombstone. I'm not giving anyone an opportunity to kill me. If anyone is going to kill me, it's going to be me or my mom. She did bring me into this world.
@andrewjones9416
@andrewjones9416 Год назад
The cirrus pilot was role playing a jaded corporate pilot flying rich boss in the king air. Never have seen one fly a pattern.
@drcode4
@drcode4 Год назад
Pilots who do straight in approaches when other aircraft are in the pattern irritate the crap out of me. I fly into Catalina Island occasionally and I don't know how many times I have called out that I am on downwind and right after I do, I hear another pilot call out that he is on straight in for the same runway. Catalina has a specific pattern and it's rude and dangerous to ignore other aircraft who are doing the right thing. Great video as usual.
@chadpm11
@chadpm11 Год назад
Been cut off and passed and cut off by numerous cirrus pilots in traffic patterns multiple airports. Once turning final had one pass over me less than 1/2 mile from touch down me in a 206
@thedirtboy1249
@thedirtboy1249 Год назад
Your willing agressive arrogance is dangerous. You speak in hindsight which is a gift of the living.
@TomCook1993
@TomCook1993 Год назад
I do VFR straight if no one is in the pattern and even still I’m making radio calls and my head is on a swivel. And I’ll yield to a plane should one show up to the pattern. And if it doesn’t work out I’ll go around.
@waldoinaz
@waldoinaz Год назад
Sounds like a battle of egos and both aircraft refused to swerve. Does Jason teach teach that little maneuver to his students?
@MustafaDane
@MustafaDane Год назад
Straight ins are a big NO NO NO NO. It usually just take 5-6 minutes extra to set yourself for a nice entry to the pattern. You MUST spend that extra time, there is just no excuse.
@jmena6157
@jmena6157 Год назад
where is the communcation?? position reports are fine, but are we now assuming ??
@richardh5430
@richardh5430 Год назад
I have had my Mariners Captains license now for going on Five years and per regs it says that no matter who has right of away you are supposed to avoid impact at all cost, and have to exercise that option. In the aviation side this doesn't seem to be the logic and this is a prime example. I would chalk this up to tired and wanting to get home. You where still on down wind when the cirrus made a 3 mile final call he was adamant he was coming in so the correct avoidance maneuver would have been giveaway stay on downwind, not to mention you can still keep him in site, as soon as you turn you dont have visual on him. Same thing in last crash low wing overtaking high wing.
@michaelsanchez8457
@michaelsanchez8457 Год назад
Since you can't land at cruising speed, it seems like "...I will slow down" would be a normal part of an approach to land. Is this why we can't have nice things?
Далее
I flew a plane into Mexico! This is HOW.
19:17
Просмотров 46 тыс.
You'll NEVER Believe What's in That BAG
19:42
Просмотров 792 тыс.
AYAYA PAPAYA 😝
00:14
Просмотров 1,6 млн
ТИПИЧНАЯ БЕРЕМЕННАЯ ЖЕНЩИНА
01:00
Turbulent Flying in Pensacola - Rainy ILS Approach
19:18
How Tesla made the WORST TRUCK EVER
31:05
Просмотров 901 тыс.
How did I screw up this IFR Departure so badly?
11:13
Просмотров 183 тыс.
Scariest Air Traffic Control Conversations
16:55
Просмотров 947 тыс.
Flying the world's first CIVILIAN F-16
13:38
Просмотров 3 млн
Why Aircraft Engines Quit
24:24
Просмотров 881 тыс.
How I Almost Ran Out of Fuel at Night...
8:36
Просмотров 27 тыс.
Catastrophic Engine Failure after Takeoff
14:01
Просмотров 1,1 млн