I had a mentor. Ted Haywood. Mustang racer, Black Flagged at Daytona in '68. '67 Shelby GT 350, 289. He pulled a 167.86 lap speed and 210 MPH on the back stretch. They were convinced a 289 couldn't do that, and legally. He once worked for Smokey Yunick. Started pushing a broom and worked his way to the trophy room where they built the Grand National engines. He finally accepted a tech inspection, and he guaranteed 504HP at 9,000 RPM. So it was and he was allowed to race. He raced that engine all season. He was the first racer to stomp the throttle in the turns. Fords like to plant the inside wheel, as everyone else lifted theirs. I remember looking at the Mechanic of the Year Trophy for 1968 he held.
Unless you are trying to swap the engine into a car never designed for anything more than a 4-banger. Then the smaller size and weight are an advantage, and you're still going to be able to make more power than the car can handle.
Like this one D, I gotta admit, your love for both of these blocks (and the builds of each) is what makes this channel different from the rest. Thanks for doing the heavy lifting 👍
Back in 1984, I built my first 351W Street Boss w/ 2V Cleveland heads using the B&A Street Boss intake designed for the oval port heads and put it back in my Mom's 1971 Galaxie500 2 door! Wat a Brut of a motor :) My latest project is to put a 95' 351 in my 2010 Grand Victoria... a 2010 NM State Interceptor to be a Strip/Street ride!
@@bobhill3941 he said "w", so that would be a Windsor, unless he was thinking Clevor, but even those are obsolete now with the aftermarket heads out there. Clevelands had the same dogleg exhaust port issue of the Windsors.
@@alertgasper Thanks, I just got confused with all the conflicting information. I was under the understanding that the 302 Windsor was the "base" average Mustang engine compared to the hipo boss. Are the Cleveland dogleg port issues because of airflow?
@@bobhill3941 Not a problem, Ford made 3 varieties of 351 cid engine, the Windsor, the Modified, and the Cleveland (which had a Boss version in 1971). Many folks stayed away from Fords as a result, until the Fox Mustang made it so affordable either you played with one or you were against one :) The 302 was often a base engine--i can only think of two times it had a 4 bbl option, one for GT Mustangs in 1960's and again in the 1980's. Most Ford engines designed in the 1960's have a poor exhaust flow issue because of the shock tower design for the Falcons, Fairlanes and Mustangs--there's not a lot of width there in the ol' boiler room. What often is the big issue with a Cleveland is the size of the ports in general--the 4V (for venturi, the technical term for "barrels" in a carb, so it's the 4 bbl heads) are great above 3,000 rpm, so many hunted for the 2 bbl cleveland heads when building something more for street use. it wasn't unusual for Ford to drop a 2 bbl cleveland V8 into say, a torino station wagon in the 1970's as the performance age had ended and they were using up what they had left. In the Pro Stock racing classes, however, the guys running Cleveland heads would--believe this or not--cut the exhaust port off the side of the head and weld on square pipes to straighten out the exhaust port. But they were also shifting gears at 7,000 RPM. Thanks to the Fox Mustang, the aftermarket has made some nice heads for the 302 that fit any 351W block, so you really don't need to screw with a Cleveland for a street machine unless you want to. Windsors tend to have a better oiling system, the aftermarket heads flow well enough, and the Windsor's wider crankshaft bearing surfaces and a need to have the lifter bores machined for perfect straightness are only an issue when you want to run high RPMs.
One big thing that is good with the small block fords is that they fit in smaller cars well (my car is a 1984 Datsun 200sx with a mild 302) fits in well...with headers (gt40 heads + intake) Haltech I can get the spark plugs easily(3 bar head) I typically believe in the "no replacement for displacement" But saving weight is ALWAYS good
and for those who don't know, a lightweight car doesn't need a ton of power (and if you're driving lessons were from your high school football coach, you're not going to handle a ton of power very well anyway). so a ford 302 pushrod designed with OEM small port heads is going to make the off-idle torque you need to feel like you're really going fast. but a lightweight engine in the front of the car is also going to help handling and braking--you should always build a car to get OUT of trouble faster than you got yourself into it.
Still even with the 351 being heavier it makes more torque and horsepower than the 302 and will take more punishment ! The only draw back is the overall height and header fitment . Great content Thank You . 🇺🇲 🇵🇷 🦊👍
I never realized there was that much difference in weight! The height and header fit up are why I have a 302 in my '31 vs the 351's in past cars. Even that 302 is a tight fit with the overall length using a fuel pump timing cover with the longer water pump.
dont forget the 351w also has 1\2" fasteners for the cylinder heads, which means your head gaskets last longer with boost or nitrous👍 . a 302 can be machined for 1\2 bolts or studs, but thats more money spent on less cubic inch.
80 lbs on front end is no joke! I love the 351w for its sheer power making potential but have always built some version of a 302. In fact I’m currently rebuilding a 306 that came in a project car… needed some bearings and rings along with a pass of a flex hone. It’s cheap and cheerful but that’s the point of the project! Going with AFR heads, F-303 cam, explorer intake and S-trim through a T5. Just some street fun.
You can make a fast 302 setup no doubt but you can more than make up for the 80 lbs extra on the front end from the amount of sheer power you can make over a 302nwith a 351. If it's a road race application it probably means more (not having the extra weight on the front) in a drag race setup the 351 wins all day.
No doubt the 351w is a great power house. 80 lbs on the nose of the car is huge though for handling. Automakers strive to keep engine more rearward just to help reduce weight over the nose. It wouldn’t stop me from building a stout 351w just saying wow that’s a lot! For drag racing obviously no biggie just make mo powa! 😁
If you already have a 302 I don't see how it would be detrimental, especially since on Foxes and SN95s you can just do little things like change the bumper support for a lighter aftermarket unit and a couple of other easy bolt on things to get that 80 lbs back off. Now if you want to talk about something like the difference between a 4 cyl, V6 and V8 that's a whole new ball game.
Thanks for the info. I run a 351w stroked to a 427 loads of power NA . That uses a 400m crank . Was a old p.a.w. Stroker kit and has loads of passes on it .
Thank you I'm new to Ford and always heard that the different displacements were different physically. With Mopar and Chevy, a set of small block headers fit a small block, not so with Ford. Now I know the deck hight is over an inch difference between the 302&351. 🤯 I'm sure that I'll be learning even more before I'm done with this project.
it's why Ford wasn't really popular back in the day, you had to know which block you had (and Ford gave up its Total Performance parts plan in the early 1970's, while Chevy kept coming out with performance parts at the dealership parts counter). The Fox Mustang really got people back into Ford since the car was cheap to buy and then owners wanted to get more out of it. Then Ford came out the the GT40 setup in 1987 (?) that was like chevy did with the Power Pack parts in the 1950's for their 283.
408 stroker all day. Had a 69 rare factory 351w 4bbl version that was ported and polished heads and intake and stroked to 408 with 11.25-1 comp and a rv style cam, did bracket racing in a 73 2dr Ltd, consistently ran 14.2 all day.
Had a 68 fastback mustang with 4 spd 69 351w 4 barrel motor my buddy had 69 torino gt 390 automatic he got me off line because I spun thru first into second once caught traction I caught him and left him that was about 45 mph he watched taillights from there I believe I had 3.23 gear he had close to same ,69 ,70 351 Windsor best yrs
I have a 1967 Merc Cougar. When I got it, the original 289 was toast. Rebuilding it would have given me a matching numbers original restored car. Then I started thinking more horsepower and various options. 347 cid would be biggest I could go with it which is smaller than built 351 but same price. I settled on 408 with AFR aluminum heads, Edelbrock intake, Comp Cams hydraulic roller cam, link bar lifters, roller rockers, stock distributor with Pertronix Igniter and finally, 750 Holley vacuum secondary 4- barrel carburetor, Hedman headers and 3" exhaust. I used the earlier non- roller block so I could use original Z-bar clutch linkage. I doubt this engine weighs any more than stock 289. It all bolted up and really didn't look much different than stock 289 but 2-1/2 times the horse power. Power goes through 11" Centerforce clutch to wide ratio top loader 4-speed to 9" rearend with Detroit Locker and 3:50 to 1 gears. It all looks stock but what a hoot to drive. It winds up quicker than it can be shifted and 1st gear is useless.
makes sense, 1967 Ford redid the Mustang planning to pop in the FE, so there was more room than the prior generation design. And you still can build the 289 for resale.
damn man i wish i had someone like you around where i live . all my friends are all chevy guys . i own 4 mustangs and always need help figuring things out and they only say . just ls swap . i just bought a 88 white notch and have so many issues with this damn 302 new block swap .. ughhh but yur videoes do help .. mike from ny
There was another displacement available using the crankshaft from a 400M. The only alteration needed was machining the snout of of the swapped-in crank. The journal sizes, bore spacing, and cylinder bore matched, so the new displacement was 400; well, actually 402 cubic inches, but the 351 was likewise 351.8 cubic inches. Uncertain why this swap didn't stay with us, but likely due to the demise of of the unpopular 400M.
There is no such thing as a 400"M" Ford ... You are referring to a de-stroked 400 Ford which they referred to as a 351M basically the "Windsor" 351 crank was fitted into a 400 and became known as the 351* "modified".. yes same family.. basically the 400 was never "modified" never a" 4v" four-barrel carb on anything production 400/351m small valve small port. Nutted to meet emissions what is exactly why the 400 was de-stroked 2 bump down the compression and the cubes to meet emission also because of detonation problems with the nutted 400...&"new at the time" unleaded gasoline"watered down or cheap gas". 👤🙉🙈🙊🏁
@@codyhenry3926, I called it a 400M to distinguish it from the non-factory engine modification being described, which could legitimately be called a 400 Windsor. Not a reference to the destroked 400, since the resulting displacement was still 400 cubic inches, or more precisely, 402. This old-style crankshaft swap could be done because the main bearing diameter of the 351 Windsor and the 400 were the same
around that time, there was the 377 cid stroker concept--offset grind a 351W crank to take a mopar 318 connecting rod and a chevy "turbo" 350 piston. both this and your idea were answers to the Chevy 383 that became the "it" engine in the later 1980's. Aftermarket crankshafts like the one used by this channel to create the 387 cid (ford did it as a crate engine at 392 cid) are cheaper than having a machine shop do all this work and balancing afterward.
Nice! It's been a dog's age since I played with a SBF. Just pulled a 5.0 from a 96 f150 at the junk yard last night and i'm about to take it apart. Really hoping it's a roller block like my friend needs.
Loved this one Daddy Dan. Have you ever read the article about the Joe Sherman 347 from years ago? What are your thoughts on that 347 provided you read the article. Thanks again, Brent
Good stuff dude. One of these days I'm gonna build a Foxbody drag car. I feel like the old ford pushrod motors are becoming harder to find though. Got my Sub.. love the informative stuff. Maybe this channel will convince me to not go LS when that time comes(Really tired of seeing LS swaps everywhere.).lol Have always heard that the 351 is the way to go. Never realized how similar in size they are thoguh.
@@Neomustangs Thanks Dan I didn't want to do a lot of research thought it was easier asking you. My Old boss use to say " if it ain't worth asking for, It ain't worth having." I used to say that Back to him when It was Raise time. LOL
Interested to find out how much of a difference my beefier Mexican block 302 will differ from your roller 302 numbers....in both block and crank weight. Cool vid!
@@aaronliddell4280 Actually the main caps on the early Mexican blocks are larger and the casting protrusions on the front of the block must add some weight. I'm curious if it's a bit heavier as a casting overall vs a standard thin-wall production block.
351 gets my vote every time unless theres a tight engine compartment like my hardtop 65 Falcon a rare car i leave the body factory have a 308 in it now but the 351 s work better even in gas mileage great video and the 351 puts you on par with the ls bunch cid wise
Building Ford engines costs more than my cheap ass wanna spend. But don't get it twisted, I like 'em! Pappy had a '74 Ford pickup with a built 302 when I was a kid and that truck HAULED ASS! Good times bro, good times.
Depends on the application. By far you can get over 408 ci with a stroker kit. But if you need something that swaps Easily in a small engine compartment a 302 would be ideal.
I would go 302. Good until 500 of course, but I would get a BOSS 302, slap it out to a 306 and make stupid power. We had a guy where I work who has a 85 GT that had a 306 making 900 wheel.
The early 351 windsors are much stouter than the roller blocks but I’m building a 95 roller Windsor for my ranger because I’m not making over much over 500. The 302 block wouldn’t last long at that level.
Ya i dont think windsor are weak really at all. I put 4 digit numbers to a 93 block (non roller last year) and it was rebuilt and sent again 3x over now...
I think it really depends on what you plan to do with your build. Drag no replacement for displacement period. But for track cars I think it really depends I find the less wheight and lower the motor and farther back the motor can sit the better. In a perfect world an all aluminum 302 would work best for road course due to less wheight and being able to set the motor lower especially if using a dry sump system nock the fire wall back. Or I hate to say this but a k24 with a big old turbo using dry sump would be best but the amount of boost I think would make the fox a little sketchy when all that power comes in. My build its 300-320hp max carb 302 in a 79 4cyl lightes of all the foxes. Anything past 300hp scares the shit out of me due to still having the solid axle. If I go irs so I can dail in the rear end and feel whats going on back there better with out the fear of it just kicking me one way to another. Sorry guys for my rambling blame it in my adhd lol.
@@Neomustangs Hey Daddy Dan, just bought a t shirt. Sorry it took me this long. If you were me and just run the car on the street and want 500hp NA, would you stroke to 347 with 0 balance or go to a 351 stroker? Keep up the good work, Brent
I've die hard 351 Windsor. But we also use them for racing dessert. God, a question did you might go to answer? Since I can nobody else is going to I have a 1974 351 Windsor. Came out of A.Grand Torino. Trying to figure out what flywheel will work for this motor. We are dropping it into 86 F150 4x4 , nobody can answer that.
I always wished Ford had had the balls to put the 351 in the Foxes/SN95s (and be affordable). It would have been a smarting answer to the Chevy default go-to 350 in the Camaro. Instead the 302 and even smaller had to put up the fight.
@@robbiehays1967 Ford could have easily put a 351W in it just hopped up enough to one up over the 350 of GM, using an automatic. They were just scared to do that for some reason.
@@robbiehays1967yeah, Ford has never been known for spending money they didn't have to. Like replacing the Pinto gas tank, or giving the Mustang a rear set of disc brakes (you had to pay almost twice as much for the SVO to get a set of Lincoln discs). Chevy in comparison would hand out four bolt main blocks for any vehicle considered heavy duty.
@alertgasper Have you ever compared the Ford 2 bolt main block to a Chevy? The main journals and caps are so much beefier than the GM. Starting with the 289 HiPo, a 2 bolt main block, raced and won numerous 24-hour races and won. Running at times to 8000 rpms. 460 blocks are known to survive 1000 hp also with 2 bolt mains. I can go on, Ford ever since the start of the Horse power wars in late 50s early 60s, to give the customer the foundation to build their car to the hp they wanted without the company having to cover liability in terms of accidents or warranty issues from racing with Ford's hi performance vehicles. People would say the Mighty Boss 429s were dogs, but with a cam and carb swap they would be beasts. Heck with a good tune they could run a 12 sec qtr. Proven many times.
The only thing I think would have made the video better would be if you included the torque and hp output of both engines. Still enjoyed it though. Didn’t realize there was that much difference in the weight
I have a pretty rudimentary question and this is for anyone in the comments section. I am thinking of swapping my 302 for a 351 in my 1982 f150 question is are the motor mounts the same? Do both blocks share the same motor mounts?
Question for you. I’m building a 410 stroker and want to use an On3 turbo kit w a T4 exhaust housing. The salesman said it won’t work even with double gates. He said that there will be too much back pressure with a T4 flange cruising around and will pop my seal and prematurely wear out the bearings. I’ve never heard of that. You mentioned to use a huge waste gate to me and it should be fine. Just dump the pressure out before hand. Have you ran into issues with your 383cc motor? Any info would be great thanks!
I know they are getting hard to come by nowadays but you should buy an old 73 ford 1/2 with a. 309 and do a 410 stroker. Sombitches are freaking fast. Fun sleeper! Edit. Even the 67-72 are a fun sleeper!
I was given a 95 mustang gt convertible green brown top from my mom when my dad had died. Call my dad did to the car as a set of Flowmaster exhaust from cats or collector back. The car was heavy and the 302 grossly underpowered. I always wanted to Build that engine up And learn how to work On engines. Didn't have the resources in eventually Sold the car. Add 46 I am making my last career change to IBEW electrition. When I top out I am going to build one of these two engines Find a 95 just like dads and Drop it in. Then give it to my little girl who never met her grandfather at her high school graduation. She's going to walk out of the gymnasium and see a Maura 1 Mustang get convert able with a big as bow on it
Okay I have a question I have a 2005 F-150 4x4 with like 5.4 Triton engine that has 130,000 miles. Here's my question should I rebuild the 5.4 or should I put a 302 in it and get the same horsepower if not more😊😊
I was thinking about building an naturally aspirated 408 stroker, efi. Would I need a tune for a unit like that of am I good to just slap her in the rig and call it done?
Should work as long as the firing order is the same. I believe the 302 firing order changed to the 351W firing in 82. Another thing to be careful of. The 351W was plentiful in the f150, f250, and vans. The problem is the intake. Ford Motor Sports use to sell a lower intake to adapt your 302 upper. I'm sure other after market companies do too. Bare in mind, the 351W is wider, so your exhaust will need to be adjusted. The exhaust manifolds are interchangeable. But if you are going with headers, then this doesn't matter because you will need to adjust the exhaust anyways.
Po boys better stick with the Windsor!! A stock rod cast piston 351 will take 159 shot of gas forever. What the 302 will do at 7000 the 351 will do at 6200. Been there, done that! You gotta buy a aftermarket block if you're planning on making over 500 hp with the 302 block! Build one 351, or buy several 302 blocks! The crank and rods in a 351w are far stronger than a 302. The 351 rod is 5.96" center to center, almost 6"! They have 3/8" rod bolts. The list just goes on. Build one 351w, or go ahead and build a couple spare 302s!
