Rich Holdener is WAY underappreciated in my opinion. He does all of the grunt work and posts 100% true unbiased dyno results. This saves us hot rodders who want to build a certain engine to a certain power level from making mistakes in the parts combination or getting stuck with parts you can't return because you purchased the incorrect one for your power goals. And Richard does all of this FOR FREE!! You can't beat that with a stick. THANK YOU RICH!!
i'll compare him to the late Roger Huntington, since they both were in magazines doing tech articles with the science of their time to prove the results.
Amem to that blue brother..im fascinated by the ton of room in the engine bay .iv got a 460 stuffed in my 93 notch and cant fit a sheet of paper between the c6 and the fire wall..i took minute for me nd my son to drop it in woth no real massaging but changing anything is quite something..lol .my next build is definitely gonna be a smaler package maybe a wild 2.3 or something in a ranger or a small car .goodluck brother .true blue
@@slowstang88 ,no kidding..thats kool youll like more .i went with 460 dual carb tunnel srt up and brother theres no room at all .cant fit sheet paper between firewall and tranny..i gotta guy that builds and he wants to do a 390 built snd said it would be alot faster . not sure but i like the old school look iand its nasty and sounds great. .ill probably just refresh and couple things port heads and stuff..93 notch.aka Frankenstein.hope this summer good luck on your build bro
@@mustangandfrankenstein Good luck to you as well. I'm probably stroking mine to 393. I'm using a 4bbl throttle body injection system and have a digital dash so I don't have to worry about gauges and I can tune the injection from the dash
I'm swapping one into my f150 (currently 5.0), 4wd, lifted, big tires, and maroon paint. It was great seeing this where I can see what it can do n/a and when I boost it like my Camaro
It has 5,969" connecting rods, 3/8" rod bolts and 1/2" head bolts! Bolts right up where the 302 does! The block is strong enough to shoot 150 pass after pass. We shot 150 on Speed Pro cast pistons, just backed the timing back 6 degrees! Cheap, dependable fun!
@@thetriode those were designed for low RPM torque--a good tuner can get a stock 5.0 into the mid 13's, which was a respectable place to be back then. now we ask for far more.
These videos are gold. I think that a lot of people can save a lot of money on their engine builds as well as having realistic expectations of their builds by watching the corresponding videos to the engine they want to build. Well done
Angelo Vasilikos 👍 I came out of my Chevy shell years ago. I still love them, but loving on other brands really broadens your horizons and allows you more opportunity to enjoy other cool cars. I can make any of the GM, Ford, and mopars run good.
What amazes me about this engine test is that you installed substantially larger heads and cam and torque between 2500 and 3000 didn't decrease but went UP 30 lb/ft!! This looks to be one of those rare "have your cake and eat it too" engine building successes!
@@richardholdener1727 I'll be going victor jr top end on my 73 351w. Probably do stock bottom end for now. Or I'm I better getting the newer 351w. Mines a stock rebuild with about 15k miles in my 69 mustang. Or should I just go stroker off top with my current 351
The windsor 351 is so underrated. Late ones like 93+ have roller capability too. I think I did a complete 351w swap in a fox for $2500. Kept mass air EFI a9l setup, fatter injectors, heads, cam and pro products typhoon intake. Made 415 WHP through a WC t5.
i see videos where folks swap the OHC in their Fox for a 302, and wonder why...might as well step it up and buy a 5.0 Mustang if that's what you want, it will be worth more later than a swap 302.
I got a 88 351W from my friends father. It came out of a tug (airport vehicle) where we worked. It was tired, had a tough life. I'd built a few mild 302's in my day. But my uncle talked me into the extra cubic inches. The swap to get it into my foxbody wasn't even difficult. Motor mounts, headers, etc. Went 30 over, 195 CC Trick flow heads, fresh rebuild. Stock rotating assembly with forged pistons. Lunati hydraulic flat tappet cam, forget what grind and lift. But it was very very streetable. Made power about 1500-6500. I'll never build another 302. 351W Is very much underrated. And the 94 Plus 351w was the hydraulic roller setup, too like he mentioned.
Also added a 100 wet shot plate kit. It was just a street car. Never could get traction. But it was awesome at roll racing. If i was a little older at that time, and made more money i would have finished it.
At first I wasn't a fan of richard not using film from the actual dyno runs. But the more I watch. The more I appreciate this format. Full of good content. All business. No fat.
Back in the Day, 1980's I liked to build 351 Windsor Street Boss with 2V Cleveland heads and boy did it make sick power with the canted valves and free flowing exhaust ports :)
Just what I was waiting for. Love all the blue oval content you can give us. Faithful watcher of all the daily videos. I second or third the big bang 351w.
I bought a Bronco last year and getting ready to buy a JY 351w to rebuild and spice up....was only expecting to get up to 300 hp with some spicing but this edelbrock package has me intrigued. Thanks for your hard work
Got damn, I'm 18 with my windsor set up damn near the same with edelbrock heads, the edelbrock dual plane air gap, and 750 holley. You're making the full vortech kit in my old man's garage sound extremely tempting.
Yes! Great timing Richard, just picked up a 351 in the JY here for a back-up build for when the 302 goes ⏱💣 Those HP & TQ numbers in a fox would be no joke in the street or track, Thanks for the knowledge! 👊
Heck yeah Richard 43k subs, it’s going up fast!!! I subbed a little while ago and binged every vid. I love every vid and truly appreciate your work and keep it going buddy!
@@markprice2225 I’m building a 84.5 gt350 foxbody right now 351w aluminum heads/tr3650 5speed zex wet kit etc it’ll be fun. I went all out on weight savings too all tubular front end parts, aluminum drive shaft/fly wheel and more. It should be pretty fun
yessir, thank you for your time sir this is what i’m doin 351w .40 over JE flat tops with eyelashes eagle i beam rods Edelbrock top in kit and ten LBS of boost via super charger EFI tho easier to tune that way all neatly stashed away in a 95 step side 4x4 ford truck she’s not for the mud strictly the street the four wheel drive is just for fun
I’d love to see a 351w based motor like this with a solid set of intake swaps. Specifically hi-ram vs rpm air gap vs victor jr in carb form and efi deluge as well... Hi-ram vs edelbrock vs tfs with both box top and long runner top.
Loving the videos mate keep them up, I'm building a 408 stroker Cleveland engine here in chch nz for my falcon that's also getting a turbo so you've been ever so helpful.
I had a stock 351w in my bronco. Went to 408 with isky cam , stock heads touched up, wien stealth intake and edelbrock 600 carb. Wawawewa what a difference
This is relevant to my interests!! Just put an E150 5.8 (flat tappet sadly) in my 57 Fairlane. Fitted with a vintage Offy intake and a 600cfm Holley. Been looking into what to do next - now I have my answer! Good to hear the dished pistons clear valves on the heads. Thanks for the video!!
Richard Holdner " alright guys let's stick to the formula. Junk yard motor check. Stock trim dyno check. NA upgrades and dyno check. Add boost and dyno check. Remember all cams are boost cams and always add boost. That's a rap." love it keep doing it man
What amazes me is how similar the Junkyard 351W's power and torque lays over your test with the Non PI 2v. Both made right at about 260fwhp at close to the same peak rpm, and even torque was similar only being about 15-20ft/lbs more in favor of the 351w.
5.8 blocks can hold a couple hundred more ftlbs without splitting the block, that to me is worth it even if it didn’t make more power. Edit: Well shit Richard basically said the same thing lol
Great video for me as I'm tossing up whether to go Cleveland or Windsor 351 for an upcoming engine conversion. From what I've read - and watched on youtube - the Windsor seems to offer more bang for the buck. And it's more compact dimensions are another big plus. If you've made a video comparing the two I'd love to see it. Just subscribed...thanks Richard.
I loved this video, I just picked up a 95 5.8 ford out of an f-250 a couple of months ago for just $50. I would love to see a test session aimed at peak torque for the 351w
Qwalay hey man you can find those mid 90’s ford trucks for cheap in rust belt areas because of rusting frames...for 300-700 bucks, you can sell the running gear and make more money on it than you paid for while being able to keep the engine for yourself...same thing goes for gm trucks and cargo vans with vortec 350’s and the 4.8,5.3.6.0 LS motors...300-1000 bucks...if you get lucky and find an s10 with the rare 8.5 rear end with the lsd option you can literally sell that for anywhere around 900-1500 bucks depending on how nice and shiny you can make it
That is a good price, I live in the rust belt and paid $100 for a roller block and EFI intake with wiring--I'd be tossing the rest anyway. But I have a pair of $50 Chevy 4 bolt blocks I picked up just before the pandemic..and yesterday from an estate sale :) The deals are out there, but you have to hunt, and I'm limited to what I can toss into the trunk of a Ford Escort since I no longer have a pickup :( so many olds 455/pontiac 400's I've had to let pass by for only a few hundred b/c they weren't dissassembled.
True :) I live in a humid area, so my dry space has run out. Mustangs Unlimited went out of business where I live, I just grabbed about 8 soda boxes full of free magazines they had lying around. I keep telling myself, take the money I'm using to grab cheap parts and save it up to spend on the cars lying around, but you know how it goes...its hard to pass up deals :) My problem is I begin losing track of what I do have, when I see a deal on something, and I end up with two. Its long past time to get organized. The stuff is out there to get, its just all over the place and needs to be hunted down. Half the fun of the deal is finding it. Tho with this pandemic, the swap meets and flea markets are taking a break. I once picked up a chrome dress up kit (valve covers, timing cover, alternator) for a Chevy small block for $10 at a tag sale. But the other 10 tag sales I stopped to check out were busts. Still, how long does it take to walk a tag sale? Another time I got a Victor Jr intake for same price, arrived at my destination 5 minutes late as a result. Its worth it to me. It may not be to others.
This video and your ones on making 2-3-4-500hp with a sbf inspired me to get a 351w for my 83 fox body. Supposedly a "good running engine". Bought off marketplace and buddy dropped it off. Very rusty engine..ok..came out of a fish plant truck..ok.. Next morning went out to a puddle of tar under it, the pan was rusted through. Drained the pan and it was tar, not oil, tar! Pull valvecovers and the sludge is to the top of the valve Springs! The oil filter was rusty, last oil change? Who knows. Broke 4exh bolts pulling manifolds. Broke a bell housing bolt pulling tranny off! Broke all four corner bolts pulling intake! Pulled a couple mains and rods...bearings are worn but crank is good, yay!! Can't pull water pump or timing cover off as bolts are twisting.(I can feel them) So, this was going to be a "stock 351 with 4bbl and long tubes" as an "in between" motor going from blown up 302 to 460. This would get me back on the track bracket racing next year. Yeah, well...this ain't turning out like a California wrecking yard engine.... You still inspired me though so can't see not doing it, but damn, talk about hard road for 250hp! Even if I stick on the gt40p heads I got, still only give me 270 or 280hp. Keep the Ford videos coming Richard, how about a stock 460 then just headers and 750? Small cam then intake, piece at a time?
There is a few large construction companies here where I live and they always used F250 and 350s. Even when they were able to get a 460, it was 351 in the trucks. But all of the E250-350s had 300 sixes. They typically had about fifty trucks and 25 vans. They would wear out bodies and frames before they killed the engine.
My first and second cars both got the same 351w. I did a lot of reading back in the day to pick stuff that would work. It turns out that I was reading a lot of stuff written by frieberger and dulcich. The second car was an 81 tbird (early fox body.) That car was great, despite the wear and cancer. Most of the performance stuff eventually was dropped onto a junkyard 302 that still had the factory cross hatch.
Every Ford has horrible exh ports. When I ran clevelands back in the day I couldn't figure out why thos big sewer ports wouldn't flow. Raised the floor and increased velocity and bam! But windsors, clevelands, fe's even 385 series's exh ports suck with that tight turn. Wish Ford would of made the exh come out the side of the engine instead of pointing down. The only reason it was a 200hp jump is because it started from such a low number. Most fords are .52-.58 hp per cube from the factory, lots of room for improvement.
@@jimmiller4667 Great comment......this is exactly what I experienced on the Ford engines. I've built several 429-460's with the stock heads and saw the same results. As soon as I ported the exhausts to lead the gas flow to the top of the port and filled the "dead" part of the port with Devcon F, the flow rate picked up and the engine made more power. The reason for the 'U-turn' exhaust ports was the shock towers on the Mustangs jutting in and squeezing the port into that miserable configuration. Throw on a good aluminum head with 'D' ports and, ZAP!, the power appears. I like all engines but would like to see more Ford stuff because we are inundated with Chevy small block and LS motors all the time and there's a lot of info already out there on those mills.
When Ford invented the Windsor low deck (221-260-289-302) it was destined for the Falcon chassis, which had the famous shock towers in the way. That is why the exhaust port was so bad, and even the mighty Cleveland had issues--racers would just cut the exhaust port right off the side of the head and weld on a pipe to be the port coming out at a better angle, back in the 1970's (look up the old magazines if you don't believe it). What also hurt the flow was, compared to a same displacement Chevy, was smaller valves and port size. It helped low RPM torque production, but if you wanted flow, Ford expected you to buy a Tunnel Port 289 head over the counter(predecessor to the Boss 302 in 1967), a Boss 302, or a Cleveland. Or just go to a 427 big block. And check out the carb sizes--the 289 K code Challenger had what, a 585 cfm carb or something? As soon as Shelby gave it a bigger carb, intake, and Tri Y headers, it went over 1hp/inch.
Ive often wondered why the crankcase pressure is never checked, especially on boosted engines. That would certainly give an indication of ring seal. 🔔👍
Most of these old engines/cars were scraped during "cash for clunkers". The scrap steel prices were artificially increased at that time so the junk yards emptied themselves of everything. They made a lot of money at that time. Most of the junk yards around me were EMPTIED. The oldest vehicles left are early/mid 90's stuff. You can still find a few 351w and 5.0's out of trucks/vans, but the 351M, 351C, 351/400M and 400's are all but gone!
That and for the last 30 years prior to 2015 it was significantly cheaper to trash a blown up motor and get a new one, rather than to try and rebuild. These days desirable motors are harder to come by so people are more encouraged to rebuild. Give it another decade and you will struggle to find a damn LS.
Richard, what the Ford guys were doing 30 years ago with junk yards motors like the example that you showed here with the 351 Windsor the LS guys today are doing with the LS, which is a generic Ford motor. The LS from top to bottom is a regurgitated Ford 427 high riser aka raised port 351 Windsor. The cylinder heads on the LS are based on the Windsor cylinder head design. It uses a 5.0 HO/351 Windsor firing order and everything about the LS is Ford. Not one design aspect of the old small block Chevy lives in the LS. The LS is 100% based on Ford designs.
The 351w is like a 302/5.0 on steroids. Bigger head bolts, rod bolts and main bolts. Beefier mains to hold that crank at 8000rpm. I built mine 24 yrs ago pushing 400 plus hp. I drive my hot rod mustang every other day and at least once every other weekend pull the quarter mile RPM's to 8000. The Crank is stock and balanced. Awesome video featuring a awesome motor that a lot of people overlook. Keep up the great work.
Yes the Windsor and Cleveland are basically same blocks one is 4 bolt mains and bigger valves better flow heads . Bigger cam and roller or solid lifters ect. The slug Windsor's only take a few add one for serious power gains. Great motor for any old ford . My friend had a Windsor slug engine in 1966 fairlane. Once he did the cam and heads and few minor changes that pig flew good and was over 500 rear wheel hp 575 HP Sweet
I prefer EFI for the tunability, but the manifold was the reason for the power loss, I can almost guarantee it. It went from a relatively short intake and straight flowing induction system (carb) to one that's much longer and not as direct (EFI). If the EFI had a manifold runner length similar to the carb manifold, I'd be it would make the same if not a hair more power
HotMetal524 Yeah, I think that if they kept the manifold and just swapped the carb for a Sniper or something similar that would work with the same manifold, it would have made the same or more power.
@@MegaMustangkiller same, there's a great amount of content her for sbf and sbc guys. No love yet for the sbm though which is a pity coz it's a brilliant motor. And wrecking yards are full of magnums.
i had this basic combination 20 years ago i had the rpm intake than latter the air gap onthis combo was good for a tenth or two i had the flat tappet rpm cam 224 234 duration . 500 / 520 lift and to top it off i had the original twisted wedge heads it only had 8,5 compression because 72 deep dish pistons but did it make torque and hp . it was in a 1981 mercury cougar with a c4 2500 stall and 3.73 gears. the car ran 12.60s at 110 mph it was 3700 with driver . had i removed the cv joint at the back of the drive shaft it may have shaved off a couple of tenths . the joint weight was 15 lbs the windsor is one of the best engines any company ever made . the 5 0 guys need to learn 5 8 is the only way to go unless its a boss 9
Richard could you do the same test with the EFI era 460 big blocks? Reason being is I was always told they are boat anchors. I'm running one with an upgraded fuel system and tuning with a moates quarterhorse. Just adding mass air, 80 lb injectors, lightning MAF, and more timing made a huge difference. Then I found a vortech v1 supercharger kit. It's making 8.8 psi at 6000 RPM. I have no clue how much HP it's making but I can say it's more fun than my stock LS3 Corvette. I don't comment often, but I want to say I appreciate the tests that you do.
In 1987, International Fisa Group 2 and 5 liter Quadrajet Holden V8 Group A racer Larry Perkins stated the endurance equity equation, which is very much the same as Ford deciding to run a carbed Big Block 427 in Le Mans rather than a 289 quad Weber engine. "460 hp at 6700 rpm beats 462 at 6900 rpm". It is exactly the same here. If an engine has to carry another 500 rpm to make 28 hp more than 432 hp @ 5600 rpm then it is technically "More" efficient than 460 hp @ 6100 rpm. The economics majors and statisticians know that by proportion, lower Hp Carb is actually more efficient. The sums are : 351.88 cubes x 5600 rpm / 432 hp = an Ai constant of 4561. Verses 351.88 cubes x 6100 rpm / 460 hp = an Ai constant of 4666. Hence for every rev per minute, the carb makes more power. Granted, this is not an EFi win you have to carry a lot more revs to access that extra power. In a drag race, power like than is an indisputable "yes" that you cannot say no to. In an endurance racing setting you access power through your gearing. An extra 28 hp could be another 15 mph top speed in a Fox Mustang if you could acess it. The old rule of taking a horsepower win anyway you can get it is not true if the engine has to be extended more in an edurance race. Any time I see a lower Ai ratio like 4561 verses 4666, I ask...what if I can rev it to 6100. Will it make 471 hp if I do other changes to the carb intake manifold combination so it revs and makes power at 6100 rpm? If 471, what about 475 hp. I'm convinced that the carb is able to eclipse the EFi power and torque curve. Being aspirational is about having a hard packed, hard nosed look at stealing more power to the dyno by seeing where the efficiency gains are. More power for less revs should be a goal, nit just extra power at any rpm cost.
Time to take that next step. Budget rebuild with stock rods, crank, etc and flat tops let's just see what you can do. What are the reasonable limits of a low buck build? Put the gap in and a blower cam to start, then twist away. Good article!!
Did the same set up a few many years ago . Right out of a jusk yard . We used the f cam , twisted wedge head and ported truck lower intake , bread box upper with a 75 TB and 80 C&L . We were at 453 hp End up with a 250 shot for a little extra fun . Still running today . Never opened it up but it'sgetting tired .lol.
I learned about the 351 in 1969 as a kid of 14 and found they had much more potential than the 289-302. You have to really spin those little engines to make them run with a stock 290 horse 351 Windsor. With a decent head and camshaft it will make more power than a 302 block can even hold without breaking. My last Windsor made 720@8500. No normally aspirated 302 is gonna come close.
Richard do you recall what injectors were used for the EFI setups, N/A and Boosted? These videos are so full of data we all appreciate your work very much!
It's been about 15 years since I've had a 351W but one thing I do remember is nothing woke it up like a dual plane cam. Even with heavy reworked heads getting the exhaust out of it was always the key.
