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Frank Is Back! (this is illegal) S15E21 

Wyrmwood
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In S15E21, Franks tells us why working on Sundays may be illegal.
Song Used:
Cosmonkey - Miami Beach
🪓 Find Us, Nerds:
bit.ly/Wyrmwoo...
Wyrm Lyfe Bangers: open.spotify.c...
DISCLAIMER:
Wyrmwood is a real company staffed by real people, and Wyrm Lyfe documents some of the real problems the business faces - but Wyrm Lyfe isn’t a documentary. It's an edited vlog on RU-vid. It doesn’t represent the values, working environment, official marketing, or brand identity of Wyrmwood - and it doesn't even try.
All subjects know and consent to being filmed, and may have amplified their statements and personalities as a result; any remarks or actions that imply or indicate non-compliance with any law, statute or regulation are being made for purely comedic purposes.
In short, like most things on the internet, you shouldn’t take Wyrm Lyfe too seriously.
We certainly don’t.
#wyrmwoodgaming #woodworking #wyrmlyfe #vlog

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22 авг 2024

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Комментарии : 266   
@LabTech41
@LabTech41 6 месяцев назад
Frank will never have to worry about being a poor man so long as he has Wyrmwood as a client with Doug at the wheel.
@cyrus1469
@cyrus1469 6 месяцев назад
I thought you were going to say a Fool for a client
@LabTech41
@LabTech41 6 месяцев назад
@@cyrus1469 ...except Doug's not a fool, but I get what you mean.
@bryonpope4622
@bryonpope4622 6 месяцев назад
Hey Doug, listen to Frank. As a registered agent in Delaware, you need to protect your company. Let Frank do his job.
@foehammermain1811
@foehammermain1811 6 месяцев назад
Doug, listen to his subject matter experts? Lol.
@cybersuitM
@cybersuitM 6 месяцев назад
Seriously, let Frank protect this awesome brand we are all fans of. He doesn’t need to bankrupt the guy but y’all have built a special brand worth protecting in a reasonable way.
@lowpolygeo3447
@lowpolygeo3447 6 месяцев назад
Doug: *hires a bunch of Walter White level subject matter experts in niche areas* Also Doug: *doesn’t let them cook*
@dchedz
@dchedz 6 месяцев назад
Re: Troy's disbelief about the trademark, 'wormwood' is the common name of a plant, but when spelled with a 'y' in Wyrmwood it's clearly a different name that Frank was smart to trademark
@xotyceq
@xotyceq 6 месяцев назад
It only matters if there's confusion. If, for example, the company using it in Delaware is in financial services or some area far removed from what Doug's company does, then it likely doesn't matter. That said, there's no harm in exploring how it's being used. An ounce of prevention...
@mda187
@mda187 6 месяцев назад
Yeah, I've never seen it spelled with a Y before other than with this company. I thought it had something to do with a wyrm in D&D since they made accessories for the game. Even googling it right now, it's all from the company and one terrible looking movie or something.
@B3RyL
@B3RyL 6 месяцев назад
@@mda187 There's also a gay romance novella under this title, which is strangely appropriate for this episode.
@SchmidtymeTimbers
@SchmidtymeTimbers 6 месяцев назад
Not only Troy's disbelief... Frank's shark like grin when Doug caught on to shaking the other company down 🤣 both hilarious and what I can't stand about our legal system. *Thanks for the moral stance Doug!
@Zedsnothuman
@Zedsnothuman 6 месяцев назад
As soon as Frank shows up, it's an S-tier episode.
@hjewkes
@hjewkes 6 месяцев назад
Doug would make a great lawyer because of his deep respect for the law.
@nautica1504
@nautica1504 6 месяцев назад
could have probably made a decent trial attorney if he actually went into studying law way back when
@tank7737
@tank7737 6 месяцев назад
Frank episodes are always a highlight!
@JCPolarBear
@JCPolarBear 6 месяцев назад
Morning Wyrmlings! Good on Frank Trademarking the name and congratulations to him!
@JCintheBCC
@JCintheBCC 6 месяцев назад
As a lawyer, the exchange at 3:25 warms my heart while also slightly stopping it. The business is going to plow forward either way, so we put up the guard rails to keep the business on the road-ish. Troy and Frank are fantastic. Troy: "I am keeping you out of legal hot water. That's my -- I am your first line of defense!" Doug: "No, first line of defense is IGNORANCE!... Is ignorance a defense?" I was taught back in school that, in business law, the question is not really "is it legal?" but rather, "Is it worth it." Because it's almost always just a money decision. Is running without a permit legal? No. Is paying $200/week worth it? Probably. (Yes, when you start breaking things like OSHA regs, then safety comes into the equation.) As we say in my field, "If your client wants to dig their own grave, you advise them against it and hand them the shovel."
@PeetaPanda
@PeetaPanda 6 месяцев назад
Troy's face when he said "you got fat???" You can see him thinking how twiggy was doug
@bensonprice4027
@bensonprice4027 6 месяцев назад
I was hoping that Frank would explain that you have to protect your trademark or you might lose the benefits of having it in the first place.
@TurtleKwitty
@TurtleKwitty 6 месяцев назад
The true CEO already mentioned it though
@jengibs
@jengibs 6 месяцев назад
@@TurtleKwitty Matt is always listening and absorbing information. He always knows what's going on. True CEO material.
@VagabondTE
@VagabondTE 6 месяцев назад
Get yourself a partner that looks at you the way Bobby looks at Diceapaloza
@chrisroberts3310
@chrisroberts3310 6 месяцев назад
Absolutely love it when Frank come on!
@patrickkeehan9560
@patrickkeehan9560 6 месяцев назад
The genuine panic everyone (me included) has when the daily Wyrmwood video is even a couple minutes late. Congrats on creating great videos that can do that to us haha
@spmiles2
@spmiles2 6 месяцев назад
This HAS to be one of my favorite episodes ....EVER. Love Triangles, Criminality, Comedy
@TrojanManSCP
@TrojanManSCP 6 месяцев назад
Colored shooting glasses aren't really to make things "brighter" (any tint necessarily limits light transmission somewhat), but to enhance contrast. Usually you're trying to make your target stand out from the background. Yellow improves contrast between black and white. Light red ("vermillion" if you have to be pedantic) tends to filter out green backgrounds. Rose makes orange pop (for clay targets).
@WyrmLyfe
@WyrmLyfe 6 месяцев назад
Rose also makes it so you only see things in a positive light.
@SchmidtymeTimbers
@SchmidtymeTimbers 6 месяцев назад
​@@WyrmLyfeso are Bobby's glasses positively "rose tinted", or blood red tinted for extra palooza dark energy?
@nautica1504
@nautica1504 6 месяцев назад
I think that is kind of what he meant tbh - it makes your target "brighter"
@ebaughm
@ebaughm 6 месяцев назад
When they arrive I'm gonna fill my mugs with milk and dunk oatmeal rasin cookies in them, and I don't even like dunking oatmeal rasin cookies
@shawnkirsch
@shawnkirsch 6 месяцев назад
Lmao
@sergiomachado1804
@sergiomachado1804 6 месяцев назад
I love frank, I wish we could see him every week!
@frankbiedak2682
@frankbiedak2682 6 месяцев назад
I hear he is a great guy!
@jokerES2
@jokerES2 6 месяцев назад
Defend your trademark. It's one of the reasons why your site has SEO. To Doug's point, it's not aggressive; it's about defending the turf your already on when someone comes in to take it.
@devsfan1830
@devsfan1830 6 месяцев назад
Eh Doug might be right. Google'ing Wyrmwood and Delaware brings up an investment management firm. So they're clearly completely different realms and only one makes physical products. So zero likelihood of brand confusion. Also not sure the trademark is as blanket as the lawyer implied. Looking it up online they seem to have fairly limited to gaming goods and furniture. Plus the SEO might be fine and frankly might actually hurt the investment firm since its likely IT will get buried by this preexisting business and products. It's also not like 1 failure to defend invalidates it. Thats a myth. It would take years of doing nothing and allowing another company in the same market to use it and generate actual confusion to render the brand "generic" enough to lose it. So no, no harm in mailing a letter if only to put the other company on notice to stay in their lane. Actually suing them would be a bit much.
@minishmew
@minishmew 6 месяцев назад
Congrats Frank! A good episode has now become a great episode with this happy news!
@WeekendSurvival
@WeekendSurvival 6 месяцев назад
You have to defend your trademark or it is void and you'll lose when someone blatantly does it in the same industry .
@jengibs
@jengibs 6 месяцев назад
THIS
@adamwoodford5914
@adamwoodford5914 6 месяцев назад
Give Frank an office at Wyrmwood! He can run his business out of there. We need more Frank!
@jengibs
@jengibs 6 месяцев назад
Something tells me he'd get tired of all the noise. lol
@filipszewczyk5972
@filipszewczyk5972 6 месяцев назад
They skipped the best part of the gay marriage story: afterwards the judge tried to convince Dough not to get divorced.
@John-lo2wn
@John-lo2wn 6 месяцев назад
Where can I find the complete version?
@diewollsocke2674
@diewollsocke2674 6 месяцев назад
@@John-lo2wn I think it was in the video "How It All Began (Wyrmwood 101)"
@LabTech41
@LabTech41 6 месяцев назад
@@John-lo2wn It'll be the one with the bucket on the thumbnail, where Doug basically fills people in on the genesis of his worldview.
@jw70467
@jw70467 6 месяцев назад
Any Frank episode is a nice episode.
@jacobside2656
@jacobside2656 6 месяцев назад
You shake them down, Doug. You don't let that slide.
@nullzero
@nullzero 6 месяцев назад
"I would make a good lawyer" Frank: *nods and bites the everloving shit out of his tongue
@jengibs
@jengibs 6 месяцев назад
He was probably thinking "this guy could never pass the bar".
@othsy2k
@othsy2k 6 месяцев назад
Wyrmwood challenge: get Frank, Dale, and Ed in a single episode.
@WyrmLyfe
@WyrmLyfe 6 месяцев назад
They're all played by the same actor 🙁
@othsy2k
@othsy2k 6 месяцев назад
@@WyrmLyfe I knew it! They're the 3 pillars of the Wyrmwood Illuminati.
@lowpolygeo3447
@lowpolygeo3447 6 месяцев назад
@@WyrmLyfejust Doug doing impressions?
@steevgibson75
@steevgibson75 6 месяцев назад
I think this is one of the best episodes EVER!
@Tensen01
@Tensen01 6 месяцев назад
Wormwood is a word that has existed for hundreds of years... Wyrmwood has only existed as long as the company has. Protect that trademark.
@borgcolect
@borgcolect 6 месяцев назад
I think this is the first time I'm going to ever say this. I like that lawyer..... I don't know if he's been on other videos, I'm newer to watching after I ordered my ELM table a few weeks ago, but he made me laugh!
@Juice1984
@Juice1984 6 месяцев назад
Oh. About that elm...
@linnoff
@linnoff 6 месяцев назад
Frank has been the highlight of many episodes. I like S8E21, highlights one of the biggest early struggles of MGT production
@ammonpluim3479
@ammonpluim3479 6 месяцев назад
Any episode with Frank is an absolute banger
@wadsworthboy
@wadsworthboy 6 месяцев назад
'Law and Comedy', these are my favorite episodes!
@alexandrathomas6790
@alexandrathomas6790 6 месяцев назад
So many gorgeously in-focus shots of the crooked Guinness certificate lolololol 🤣🤣🤣 ALSO I LOVE LOVE LOVE THE DICEAPALOOZA SHIRTS OMG I HAVE TO GET ONE
@edwardwilson7459
@edwardwilson7459 6 месяцев назад
I bought the mug because affordable. Spite was a binus
@LabTech41
@LabTech41 6 месяцев назад
Oh, if you think the spite regarding WW mugs is over, you have NO idea...
@fuzzymoto69
@fuzzymoto69 6 месяцев назад
Congrats Frank, on the marriage, not being Wyrmwood's attorney.
@danmyers2759
@danmyers2759 6 месяцев назад
We need a Frank spin-off series!!
@TheRAfreak
@TheRAfreak 6 месяцев назад
That Pooz T-shirt gives off the exact vibe I'm looking for
@thecrunchyferrett6985
@thecrunchyferrett6985 6 месяцев назад
Damn Frank is quick off the mark with a snappy comeback
@opshlds
@opshlds 6 месяцев назад
Whew... Was worried, 0800 came and went and no video... Thanks for saving the morning Wyrmwood!
@abarbs9083
@abarbs9083 6 месяцев назад
Who needs law school when you have Frank episodes.
@AaronCook83
@AaronCook83 6 месяцев назад
I had a personal feeling about putting someone's concealed carry business on the internet, and I'm pretty sure her look matched that feeling.
@jessicalawson1417
@jessicalawson1417 6 месяцев назад
Living in Atlanta Georgia I just assume people are carrying at this point, I don't conceal anymore since you don't have to have a license either way in Georgia and just were my Glock out in the open.
@AaronCook83
@AaronCook83 6 месяцев назад
There is a difference between "anyone and everyone could be armed at any time" and "this exact person IS armed." One discourages stupidity, the other marks a target.
@chrismanuel9768
@chrismanuel9768 3 месяца назад
​@@AaronCook83No it doesn't. The point of being armed is that you're not a target. Good guy with a gun, right? If you think guns protect you, then why are you scared someone might know you have one?
@AaronCook83
@AaronCook83 3 месяца назад
@@chrismanuel9768 you know where someone works very easily turns into where they park, where they live, their routine, and not that much effort getting the jump on them before they can pull the gun you know they have. The gun you now have.
@edt765
@edt765 6 месяцев назад
love Frank's reactions. Just so honest.
@ennok4231
@ennok4231 6 месяцев назад
When asked any questions, Frank is amazing at giving the long version of "it depends."
@jengibs
@jengibs 6 месяцев назад
I LOVE Frank. He makes every episode he's in a gem.
@Flarecobra
@Flarecobra 6 месяцев назад
A law lasanga.... a Lawsanga then? And congratulations to Frank! And disappointed in the lack of Judas Priest "Breaking the Law" there at the end.
@DefinitelyNWYT
@DefinitelyNWYT 6 месяцев назад
Sipping from my new mug while Doug laments his defeat.
@BlakesPipes
@BlakesPipes 6 месяцев назад
Carrot cake and oatmeal cookies! The bomb 💣 . On occasions i try something else to see if i like it. But i always return to my favorite.😊
@seandunne6714
@seandunne6714 6 месяцев назад
The no manufacturing on Sunday law sounds like something that was passed in the Colonial period and is longer enforced (a blue law).
@jengibs
@jengibs 6 месяцев назад
Really weird laws can be modern laws too though. There's a bunch of really wacky ones in my home state of Louisiana. Like how it's illegal to tie an alligator to a fire hydrant (my personal favorite).
@chrismanuel9768
@chrismanuel9768 3 месяца назад
​@@jengibsThat has a good reason to exist though. Don't attach dangerous animals to an emergency tool.
@d_dave7200
@d_dave7200 6 месяцев назад
Not spite Doug -- good value. You talked about how great the quality of the mugs was, and then cut the price in half. I bought two. At $30 I would have bought one. At $40 I bought none.
@chrismanuel9768
@chrismanuel9768 3 месяца назад
And I wouldn't buy any mug above $10 no matter how fancy it is, because at the end of the day... it's a cup. They're 25¢ at Walmart
@omega392
@omega392 6 месяцев назад
Lord Bobbithy, Pappa of Pooz, Declarer of Loozas, first of his name, has received his ceremonial garb.
@Heliosmaster
@Heliosmaster 6 месяцев назад
Doug vs the Law are among the funniest episode! Keep it up and keep Frank from being a poor man...
@jengibs
@jengibs 6 месяцев назад
Doug single handedly paying for Frank's wife's spending account. XD
@Chaosghoul
@Chaosghoul 6 месяцев назад
Old German addage about ignorance and the law: "Dummheit schützt vor Strafe nicht." (stupidity doesn't save from punishment)
@MaggotElite
@MaggotElite 6 месяцев назад
We need to bring back the old school 3/4 baseball sleeve for the Diceapalooza shirts. Feels like it would just be a good fit 😂
@JoyHatcher
@JoyHatcher 6 месяцев назад
Congratulations Frank!
@VagabondTE
@VagabondTE 6 месяцев назад
I bothers me that the story is now that pure spite drove those sales and not simple affordability.
@WyrmLyfe
@WyrmLyfe 6 месяцев назад
I understand what you're saying! However, 100% of recent mug sales were fueled by spite and those who purchased mugs expressed entirely malicious intent in doing so. I hope this clarifies things!
@VagabondTE
@VagabondTE 6 месяцев назад
@@WyrmLyfe Spite.. that he didn't price them cheeper. There is an obvious overlap here. It's literally a half of sale. This is like saying relaxation drives Labor Day sales.
@WyrmLyfe
@WyrmLyfe 6 месяцев назад
If that's not the case, then explain my new SEGA Game Gear I bought on Labor Day exclusively because I was chilling out big style?
@VagabondTE
@VagabondTE 6 месяцев назад
@@WyrmLyfe Oh that's actually really interesting. It has to do with the unique effect of the Sonic franchise and SEGA rising prices over time. You'll need to check Japanese currency charts tho. Google "Sonic Inflation" and you should be able to find it.
@VagabondTE
@VagabondTE 6 месяцев назад
​​@@WyrmLyfeOh, the answer to that is actually really interesting. It has to do with the Sonic franchises unique effect on SEGA's prices over time. There are charts for it. Google "Sonic Inflation" and it should be easy to find.
@kenmoorhead2943
@kenmoorhead2943 6 месяцев назад
4:06 it’s a LAW-sagna! Come on people, it was right there for you.
@flipninja55
@flipninja55 6 месяцев назад
Congrats to Frank!!
@Almighty_Atlas
@Almighty_Atlas 6 месяцев назад
Frank is the best. Always love his style.
@DUSKVEA
@DUSKVEA 6 месяцев назад
Oh I want a crop top/baby tee version of the diceapalooza shirt!!
@everythingsablur
@everythingsablur 6 месяцев назад
Doug missed the obvious pun: It's a LAWsagna...
@Azazapher
@Azazapher 6 месяцев назад
Doug James Bond energy is only true if he was the villain 😂
@MrGoalie2012
@MrGoalie2012 6 месяцев назад
9:54 Troys face shows genuine concern lmao
@Gibbtall
@Gibbtall 6 месяцев назад
Unsure if the website got that rebuild, it was down this morning and feels different so I guess so. But there's no search? I've been trying to see the shipping for mugs to Canada, and can no longer even find them.
@godlessveteran2431
@godlessveteran2431 6 месяцев назад
Wormwood has been in the english language for a long time..I'm not so sure about Wyrmwood. That variation is likely why it i s able to be trademarked pretty easily.
@TinyTactician
@TinyTactician 6 месяцев назад
these have no right to be so entertaining.
@CraigAWSellars
@CraigAWSellars 6 месяцев назад
Frank. Best episodes ever.
@storiesofsarahtonin
@storiesofsarahtonin 6 месяцев назад
This episode was so wholesome 🥰
@Andross1983
@Andross1983 6 месяцев назад
With daily vids now I want to see a Wyrmwood/Good Mythical Morning collab. Betcha can't make it happen Doug! :P
@aschmitt89
@aschmitt89 6 месяцев назад
One thing I learned in high school is "ignorance of the law is no excuse."
@jamesmccloy3403
@jamesmccloy3403 6 месяцев назад
The hilarity that Burbery in Scotland is indicative of NED or CHAV etc
@Infernoblade1010
@Infernoblade1010 6 месяцев назад
Another good day with a Wyrmlife post!
@Dresden76
@Dresden76 6 месяцев назад
I’m with Frank. Oatmeal raisin cookies are legit. Doug better send my mug to me with cookies in it! :)
@loungeking77
@loungeking77 6 месяцев назад
congratulations Frank
@DuDleyAllDay
@DuDleyAllDay 6 месяцев назад
WE GOT FRANK ON TEAM OATMEAL RAISIN ITS OVER FOR YOU NERDS!!!
@elephamoose
@elephamoose 6 месяцев назад
*sips from my Doug spite mug*
@Leviathan9173
@Leviathan9173 6 месяцев назад
I really want to see the invoice from frank: 2 hours actual advising, 5 hours Doug talking....
@BlueRazz28
@BlueRazz28 6 месяцев назад
107k followers! Y’all are moving up in the world! 😆
@frankbecker1314
@frankbecker1314 6 месяцев назад
JUST GOT MY 2 DOUGIE SPECIAL MUGS TO SIP COFFEE WHILE ENJOYING WYRMLIFE!
@PumpkinBecki
@PumpkinBecki 6 месяцев назад
Aww poor Frank thought he was going to get to haul someone through the courts😢😂
@BrickInTheHead
@BrickInTheHead 6 месяцев назад
on Doug's question about his poodle, there's two answers... if he doesn't know it's illegal to have a poodle, he's screwed. but if he (genuinely) doesn't know his dog is a poodle, he's fine.
@tylor2113
@tylor2113 6 месяцев назад
You have to keep in mind there will be malicious Wyrmlings that will call in a complaint.
@jengibs
@jengibs 6 месяцев назад
Yeah, kinda asking for it at this point. Doug loves poking his haters with a stick to agitate them. This gives them a perfect way to poke back.
@Andrewc87563
@Andrewc87563 6 месяцев назад
WYRMWOOD shaped cookies? OK that probably leaves mugs for dead!
@TheXomas
@TheXomas 6 месяцев назад
Bobby! How do I get one of those shirts prior to Pax East? I will rock it there if I can get one.
@andydirk88
@andydirk88 6 месяцев назад
I was so worried when I got to my desk a few min past 8 and a new Wyrmlyfe was not up!
@WyrmLyfe
@WyrmLyfe 6 месяцев назад
We gotta keep you guys on your toes!
@alexschopbarteld922
@alexschopbarteld922 6 месяцев назад
They should make a Netflix show about Doug, there is so much hidden lore lol
@staceygram5555
@staceygram5555 6 месяцев назад
Wyrmwood is basically real life's The Office.
@WyrmLyfe
@WyrmLyfe 6 месяцев назад
Which character am I?
@staceygram5555
@staceygram5555 6 месяцев назад
@@WyrmLyfe Michael, obviously.
@edbeecher3193
@edbeecher3193 6 месяцев назад
And I love it when my comment auto-erases and I get to start over. Always enforce your trademarks and copywrites. When shoddy work comes out of the other shop and you get blamed for it, that is a whole new world of pain you do not want. The other company could possibly get your copywrite on the bases of abandonment if not enforced. Please, with all the love in my heart, stop flapping your gums about legal matters. We are going through a similar thing with the Hugo Awards (Worldcon) over similar things. Hugs and Hugs and ... The 1911. It's like a Glock but for men.
@PuReWiReZ
@PuReWiReZ 6 месяцев назад
Gun rated glasses are yellow to cancel out harsh blue light, it has nothing to so with brightening things up.
@MarkJohnson-wd4tn
@MarkJohnson-wd4tn 6 месяцев назад
Bonus Action: Defend Trademark!
@Mark_1984
@Mark_1984 6 месяцев назад
I freaking love Oatmeal Raisin cookies!
@uniacke
@uniacke 6 месяцев назад
Best show on RU-vid
@TornadoTexan
@TornadoTexan 6 месяцев назад
Glad to see that as a man of such refined tastes (as evident by the Burberry scarf), Frank also enjoys the finery that is oatmeal raisin cookies.
@elbruces
@elbruces 6 месяцев назад
Frank episode!
@LanceKirkman
@LanceKirkman 6 месяцев назад
Go Frank go! Protect the trademark!!
@just_eirik
@just_eirik 6 месяцев назад
If I got/bought substandard “Wyrmwood” item and realized it’s not the real deal, I’d be angry. I mean it’s not just about protecting your IP, it’s also about making sure your customers aren’t fooled too.
@FJMiller14
@FJMiller14 6 месяцев назад
I swear Doug exists solely to cause friction on Wyrmlife.
@jengibs
@jengibs 6 месяцев назад
Every good story needs its villain. XD
@WyrmLyfe
@WyrmLyfe 6 месяцев назад
The script called for him having a heel turn.
@quaide78
@quaide78 6 месяцев назад
Hilarious!
@sky0kast0
@sky0kast0 6 месяцев назад
Yeah yellow glasses are not for outdoor use but it can brighten certain colors while killing bluelight
@housecaldwell
@housecaldwell 6 месяцев назад
FRANK!!!
@StonedSpagooter
@StonedSpagooter 6 месяцев назад
I just need SOMEONE to acknowledge more mugs would have been sold if shipping was not twice the price
@EssmirWolf
@EssmirWolf 6 месяцев назад
So isn't wormwood the actual name of the plant and wyrmwood the trademark?
@wjptcs
@wjptcs 6 месяцев назад
Listening to someone say in disbelief that "you can trademark a word that's been in use for hundreds of years?" is literally the moment anyone watching should be wondering how as a company they have made it this far...
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