To put in perspective, I’m 71, have never wore out a screw driver, dwell meter, tach, vacuum gage and timing light, but I’ve wore out 4 laptops , crashed a few programs, burn up sensors and chased questionable wiring. I’ve run mechanical fuel injection and carburetors until 2006 the efi now I’m going back to carbs , just sayin 😊
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage to be fair I will use hand held O2 sensors both sides while tuning carbs. They won’t last forever either and the NTK $350 sensors are about the best.
Being the same age, I think that these EFI kits are overpriced and most if not all, not meant by the manufacturer to be updated. They want you to buy another and another of their "new introductions". These conglomerate companies today only have profit on their agenda and quality is always , "border-line" and mostly Chinese crap with their name attached. I've got 40 year old Holley carbs that are still working just fine. I seriously believe that if you buy the "latest and greatest" EFI system today, it will be garbage in a couple of years.
I'm with you buddy. I'm currently building a 351 Cleveland and I'm going to put it in a 2001 Dodge Dakota with Holley 750 on top, and it's kind of be my daily
I've never used a stand alone, but know plenty of people who have had problems with them. I have cut down factory harness, had the ECU reflashed with good success. Why go with outdated throttle body EFI when you can have the modern version? I would rather just have a carb that works and is tuneable.
Makes me think I should build a carbureted 351 and have it set aside with some motor mounts for the previous era of Panthers so I can replace my EFI 4.6 if needed.
This is a awesome and very valid point and I am going to say that maybe until number 3 then no. It is been the common thread that especially with phones and computers that after a certain amount of time they are obsolete and I don't think unless you are a digital or computer repair and programmer you are not going to be able to make certain things work unless you have a good pile and access of parts to it. After they switch to something else and they keep moving forward as also with cars you have to upgrade after you can not get parts anymore for the one that you have and like to keep. The junkyard of today is not much better than the ones of old because of the crushing of everything if it is not a good seller or is taking up room for something that they are making money for.
It’s already a thing bud. Hptuners upgrades your dongle and the software. Send it in plus $$ and they send you the new stuff with some credits. Holley just had a software update too.
Alot like the chips in automobiles. No companies want to build them. They are obsolete in any other application. Imagine how much better our automobiles would be if the manufacturers would get current in the computers that they are installing.
@@andrewbmaster1852 been using a ms2 based set-up everyday on a turbo small ford 75f250. I have 5 others on the same set-up. Great customer support as well.
The only thing I really like EFI for is its ability to compensate for altitude changes, since I cross the continental divide a few times a year. However, something new has been developed. A RU-vid channel called Thunderhead289 has marketed something called the Carb Cheater and it should maintain your AF ratio regardless of altitude. The Carb Cheater fits under your carb and I think its working as a computer controlled vacuum leak, at least that is what it seems like. I would like to hear your opinions on it.
It can only "mantain" a somewhat semi stable AFR in very specific conditions like cruising with a very specific throttle position, but transitions and everywhere else you still have a carburetor with all their drawbacks; not knocking him at all but is just a half way TBi system with barely a single benefit and all the drawbacks of a mechanical system
@@yepitsme431 I beg to differ, The carb cheater cost only half or 1/3 of a tbi injection and it wil never lever you stranded by the side of the road. It might stop working by some freak voltage spike in your car, but you can continu your trip because your carb is stil working fine altough it may be not at perfect 14,7 mixture.
A similar concept was used by Toyota in the 80s.computer controlled solenoid valve controlled the air supply to air bleed in carb.im not very familiar with carb cheater but controlling air rather fuel to get af control has been done.being able to make some adjustments on a carb with out changing jets would be convenient.hope the carb cheater works out.
I have installed the sniper systems for customers. It's not all it's cracked up to be. Sniper 2 probably better. On and on and on. Just like the question you raised. My money is on hardware not software !!! I have learned to be able to tune all facets of the carburetor by listening to folks like Mark Whitener, Tuner and others like David Visard (I have had the book for years) and my own experience of 45 years. To be able to tune what most consider a race engine, for the street and have good manors and good economy and make better that average numbers at the track gives me great satisfaction. Carburetor for the win.
Will it be supported? NO They want to sell newer products. GM has done that with their parts also , you have to go aftermarket to refurbish the old motors, it’s the business model.
I drive my carbureted car 1000 miles per year. There is absolutely no reason to swap it to EFI. My daily drivers all came with EFI, and there is absolutely no reason to swap them to carbs.....😆😆😆
Andy & David, I know you've seen this comment from me before.& I'll stand behind it until I kick the proverbial rod, "Timing light & screwdriver for the win!". 😁
Just look at history, the early Holley Projection, Halltech F8, B&M Superjection, the first gen Accel DFI etc... are for the most part no longer supported. These early EFI systems from the early 90's to about to the middle of the first decade of the 2000's are now basically junk if any major component dies. The Halltech and the early Accel units used programs that ran on your laptop, I would be willing to bet you cannot get those early programs to run on a modern operating system anymore. Any aftermarket EFI system you buy today, you will need to eventually replace in 15-20 years. Your 1960's-1970's carburetor will run forever.
Quadrajets are poor mans fuel injection. Nothing runs better! Each are good for 500 hp and work great in pairs or triples. For big power. You should try a couple of 800 cfm QJs on mixed up boss and see some real power
EFI merchandises are like Duracell VS Energiser batteries. They show there product is the best but ends up failing at they end and you need to replace it. Hahaha
Fuel injection is great....til it breaks😂 Honestly, I've had well tuned carbureted hopped up street cars with as good I'll bet better throttle response, able to knock down 20mpg highway with a 3spd auto, and start with a single tap of the gas in winter. Being able to fix it on the side of the road with a couple wrenches and a screwdriver tops it for me. I live the analog lifestyle 😂
I bought a new Edelbrock carb back in 1997 for my little 80 Malibu hot rod. That carb has been on every little hot rod and carbureted car i've owned ever since. It's not the greatest performance carb but it's been dead reliable. I've rebuilt it 3 times In almost 30 years mostly due to inactivity of the vehicle
I had customer... oh... back in '14 or so... '59 Fairlane v8... had a efi system dating to late 90s or early 2ks never could quite get it to run correctly for a long period of time... finally ended up putting a carb on it.
EFI is great for my Factory Stock drive to work and grocery store every day daily driving machine, but when it comes to any performance type of engine build, I will take a CARBURETOR over an EFI anytime I can. I absolutely love the simplicity, less expensive, hands-on physical type measurements of a non-electrical digital item that a Carburetor has to offer---especially the Holley style designs for hands-on tune-ability. I just wish the Barry Grant Demon 4150 style carb was still available with the inner-changeable Venturis sizes and Booster design change-outs on the spot, but Holley bought BG out and ruined it for us all---at least in this reference. Thank you Andy,---btw, I really enjoyed your video about the "Stepped" style Booster vs. the regular Stock style Booster on an air-gap style intake manifold vs a "heated" or heat soaked type of intake manifold----that was truly an awesome comparison and test at the drag strip and the ET numbers that you showed at the strip as well. Very impressive....Anyway, call me "old school" if you want---I'm a CARBURETOR guy!!!
This exact thing happened to me with my guitar amp. I bought a Line 6 amp with a bogner tube power amp to bring me into the digital age. That thing sounded great and it was really user friendly. Now the tube amp part of it is dead reliable, but the electronics on these amps was not the greatest and with time and heat the chips would burn up. Fast forward to now from 2007, you cannot get parts to fix them. They didn't even once attempt to do another production run of the PC boards because all of the ones for sale used out there are stamped 2007 with zero exceptions. Call up Line 6 and ask them about parts? Can't get 'em. They actually recommended to me to buy a different amp! You think I'm gonna go get another Line 6? Absolutely not. The moral of the story is that your concerns about these EFI systems are well founded. These big corporations don't give a r**s a** about you 10 years from now, as long as they can get your money now. I can go to Fender for example and get off the shelf brand new parts for my old Bassman 10 amp, and that thing is over 50 years old. I think Holley may be a bit more honorable company than the Line 6 people, but be careful who you get these things from if you don't want to be dead in the water when it needs to be serviced.
Andy you are absolutely correct by bringing up the cell phone situation. I have a 10 year old laptop works fine except that Google will not let me upgrade and many apps will not work because the google is not up to date. And yes I have a chromebook.
My 5.7 hemi swapped 67 belvedere has a megasquirt 1 ECU which originally because available in 2001 and is still supported by the current tuning software, im not worried about support disappearing anytime soon. And the fact that the thing will start every single time in -20° weather with no drama is nice. The car runs low 8s in the 1/8 with a stock 04 5.7 and a stick.
Great video and I fully agree! If I had a Sniper system I know full well that the newer systems would supersede and I would have to replace. Not much different than me trying to watch this video on my old flip phone...
you dont "have to" replace them, i know first hand a first gen msd atomic system still working like nothing that was bought right at release (like 10 years ago if i remember right) and there isnt a single reason why it should be replaced by a new system other than the novelty of having a new system with new features
Something that might be a good thing for this industry is for manufacturers to move to standardized parts that come from original OEM designs and industrial lego electronics components. Something like an Arduino so even if a manufacturer goes out of business someone else can step in and keep making the same or similar parts to work with your system.
Sorry for the long read,,,,I have a Edelbrock proflo4 system on my fe engine.I’ve had it approximately 3 years and still seems to have tuning issues. Although it’s supposed to be self learning,you still have to make some tuning adjustments using a supplied tablet,did it make any performance gains?,,,,I really can’t tell,,,,,increased mpg?,,,,maybe a little. At the time I purchased it,I thought,wow,muti-port injection, I’ve got to get that for my FE,its got to make a huge difference, It didn’t, now I worry about what I’m going to do if I’m on a road trip, or even around town and something goes wrong. Your not going to get most anything for it at a auto parts store, and a screw driver and tool box full of tools is not going to help… with all that being said, if I had it to do over, I wouldn’t do it, I’d stick with a holley carb and a well tuned Duraspark ignition.
I have a 406sbc with edelbrock X-c8 cross ram. I toyed around with using two efi set ups on it but decided to make my own adapter to use to use two rochester quadrajet carbs facing away from each other in an attempt to have better drivability. Of course, I am still putting it all together and making my own bell crank set up to operate it. I have always been a carburetor guy bc I would rather have one run like crap than an EFI Totally crap out.
Totally with you till the Quick Fuel Carb part, they must send differently assembled carbs to Australia 😂, all new carbs I fit get at least a partial strip/visual check etc. Some i run test before reboxing and sending out, some go out on engines etc. QFT always have metal filings and swarf everywhere inside them. Holley not so bad, edelbrock some great some not so clean. Other than that QFT are fine.
Between upgrades and failures I think it’s going to be like you said with the cell phone comparison. Btw big congratulations on the 30K subscribers your channel has taken off!
We run the sniper x flow 1375 on E85 on a small block Mopar. We've been running it about 4 years. Most if not all of the parts are readily available at your local parts store. We tried an E85 carburetor and standalone 02 sensors and came to the conclusion that a carburetor, at least the way I do it, is a guess. The sniper targets my AFR by itself. Also the data logging alone makes the swap worthwhile
💯 The guys against it, are the guys that don’t understand how to use it. Holleys downloads for the latest software are free from Holley, and they still offer parts and support for the ancient MSD atomic efi. That’s why Holley had been my choice for efi, because 15 years from now when the ACE and FiTech are a thing of the past, Holley is the most likely company to still support their products.
I have been running Holley tbi systems since the 80's. They are simple which is good for me. The old work truck has a 900cfm laptop tunable tbi from 1995 on it. Trouble is I can't interface with the ecm anymore due to new computers not talking to the dos program. Thanks
Yeah Charlie they are good and simple.. funny story back in the day I tuned one in a blow through application Procharged 455 GTO! I about pulled my hair out working on that car Andy
Get well, DV. It's a race to the finish line. For fuel powered vehicles and digital technology. The next evolution will be done without petroleum. Transmitted electric current will be our future. Wireless charging can already be done with our devices today. No need for a wire power grid when thousands of satellites orbiting the earth will transfer power in sound waved into our transportation. Eventually, refined fuel will be as hard to get as R12 freon. F.i. has a limited life span. Carbs will disappear as well.
I don't disagree with anything you said, but what about the possibility of the EPA banning carburetors? Given the direction things are going, it wouldn't surprised me. I have the MSD system on a Ford FE and have had zero issues. I think it's a good practice to live in both worlds.
I workd in the industry in the 80ies & early 90ies....when Detroit just started with all the eletronics on motors....they were SO bad to work on....I quit the industry...!...I DIDNOT enjoy work'n on cars with all the eletronics on them....!...they since have got'n way better...BUT....they can still bite u..!...im in my 60ies...& the next car im getting will be carburetored with either point ing. or early eleltronic ing...!...THATS IT...!....when your pc @ home gets f'd up...can u just take a screwdriver....turn a few screws & it's all fine again.....I don't think so....!.....keep it simple....unless.... your gona race in a pro or semi pro cercit than u will HAVE 2 do what everyone else is doing...a few hand tools & a spair distrebitor...in the trunk & 99% of the time u can get her home.....IF....shes carbureted...!...thanks Andy & David...hope this opens a few peoples eyes...!...?..?
Back in the early 90tys. I built up a SBF 347. I USD a ford GT40 intake. But used a SDS EFI system out of Canada. It used hand held control for tuning. I learned a lot about EFI system. Only limintation is it was a load system. The new EFI are still just load control MAP and not MAF
Definitely not a Scam with the Electronic Carburettors & or Fuel Rails with Throttle Bodies. Probably the best of both worlds 🌎 But will the EFI out strip the a Carburettor(s) ???? 4 peak power Most probably the Best Carburettors are from old school guy Mr Gary Williams in the USA 🇺🇸 👍 😀 $$$ his Carburettors are probably going 2 Whip ( as Casius Clay would say ) ur butt .
Awesome information something to think about iv away like Holley carburettors. Was going to rebuild my 351 cleveland and try a EFI System. But now I've thinking about staying with Holley carburettor thanks for the info
Scam alert, someone is leaving reply's to peoples comments pretending to be UMSG and telling them they won the prize, The scammers are asking for $105.00 for shipping cost's, what a bunch of jerks
Had a FAST EFI, supposed to learn. It was dumber than #@$%!. Chased itself back and forth. Perfect v mild stock ish 350. GM mr. goodwrench engine. Manufacturer always alluded to it was something else. Basically took a great running engine and started having all sorts of issues. No longer reliable. Had to put carb back on it twice to use it for my business. Finally just left the carb on it. FAST unit sitting in cabinet. $1300 wasted. Company was RUDE and techs on the phone didn't know their head from a hole in the ground. One of my customers about ruined a brand new engine with those things. NEVER break in a new engine with 1 of these units unless your on a dyno with someone that can spot what's going on!
1997 Super Coupe all-wheel independent suspension. 1997 GT Mustang blou the transmission at 165. 1995 Mustang V6 3.8 I would call it the Oldsmobile Fords plenty of power. The world series of engines 1991 Lincoln Town Car even the hoods aluminum executive series. Most of the engine was aluminum also some of the engine was built in Italy the right serial numbers this engine is worth a fortune well to the consumer. Power and luxury some of these cars have been sitting around for 30 years 20 years very cherry. New York to Los Angeles and around Texas to Florida do you have to have a 91 Lincoln you're not going to have spark plug trouble or Teflon issues with your intake manifold. Police cars the interceptor I heard it's horrible for the spark plug issues
They will be supported untill its no longer cost effective.. after that???,,, eventually sombody will find a hack,,, for what we pay for the systems,, i feel it should have life time support and upgrades..
You do know that any number of people have put together their own EFI with very cheap computers and leftovers from motorcycles and cars.... right? I dno't think you understand EFI
Is that Dominator in the foreground the 4575? If it isn't it is something pretty close. That is my favorite carb. The only Dominator carb that came with a choke.
Scam might be an overstatement, but a problem is waiting to hit us all in the face: can aftermarket systems find protection under 'right to repair' without damaging intellectual property? Electronics drift as they age, affecting pulsewidth, trigger timing/quality, voltage stability etc. So perhaps... the art of blueprinting modern systems means breakout the oscillloscope now while EFI controls are new and tech support still exists to nail down theory of operation. Make our own manuals. identify parts, and remember that if chipsets are proprietary, the supply generally dies off after new units are no longer manufactured.
These EFI systems are on the verge of being obsolete when you buy the kit. A bad investment in comparison to the tried and true Holley type carbs that I've been using since the 1960s.
No those systems will not be supported 10 years from now. I had that happen when the Holley commander 950 system I had died so I had to replace it with the Holley HP EFI which ended up being a good thing due to the newer system is by far way better. That being said my other hotrod has a Quick fuel 750 awesome carb.
I think your concern about the closed architecture of some efi systems is a real problem. That is why more people need to go to a open source solution like a megasquirt based system. The real issue is that efi is marketed as a "simpler" solution than a carburetor. The reality is the opposite. EFI is a more complex system with more controls. If you keep your eyes peeled you are starting to see more people who run a EFI system with carbs. Chief and Jackie have Caddy Jack with a fuel tech system on a small block Chevy with dual carbs on a tunnel ram, and alot of nitrous. Why would you spend fuel tech money and then run 2 carbs? Because it is the best of both worlds. I think the next major revolution is going to be incorporating carbs and fuel injection systems together. Just as a example the new carb cheater system from thunderhead289. You have a small computer and iac valve that can lean out the carb to help it. The wonderful part is there if the computerised system completely fails you can still drive home. It is a good time to be a gear head:-)😊
You raise a legitimate point about the possibility (or history) of the industry forcing continuous 'upgrades' on the buyer down the road. I have been kept away from aftermarket standalone EFI mostly due to cost. The actual power making potential of EFI is not significant enough to warrant it for me. If my hot rod was a daily driver it would be worth it for cold driveability and increased efficiency but as a weekend / summer toy - there is little to gain and lots of cost. Besides, there's something about tweaking a carb to go with the day's atmospheric conditions that is a part of hot rodding I'm OK with!
I was curious when you say that. When you take the quick fuel out and you set it on the motor it is almost spot on about 98% is what I'm guessing you mean. So if I were to take one out, set it on the car and bolt it down, maybe adjust the idle screw. And give it a try?? I've swapped out carburetors from one car to the other. But they were already adjusted and worked well for what I had never actually played with a brand new one. And with 2 jobs that I'm handling. Along with raising some grandkids. I don't get a lot of time, so any info is always great and appreciated.
Apples and oranges. Cell phones are open ended, forever attached to the parent company. Additionally, they wont function without 3rd party infrastructure (towers). EFI, unless it is programmed to degrade, or 'expire', is closed end, "abandoned" from its parent company. The only concern there is 'parts' in the event one needs replaced. Well thats no different than say, a quarter panel for your 67' gtx or whatever. If someone makes one, good. If someone doesnt, you make one or cry in your cereal. Most of the 'consumable' parts with all aftermarket efi, are OEM components. And therefore, are on the shelf. The REAL concern imo, is the FUEL. The reason i moved to EFI, is because the quality of pump gas has become garbage, making it a constant chore of tuning, cleaning, and/or rebuilding to keep carbs happy. The govt changed the fuel once. (more the once actually). They will change it again. With the lame duck of EV's also looming over head, the concern of market disruption, also makes it to the top of the list of REAL concerns. EV's are garbage, and an intentional albatross around our necks. But rest assured. We will be saddled with this cancer specifically to skyrocket the cost of energy. With the cost of energy becoming astronomical, and manuf's dropping wide band O2 sensors to make bridge rectifiers, just pray that little tiny hole in the wall that produces your float bowls, needles and jets, keeps its doors open.
As long as you´re stuck at oem like intake manifolds, ofcourse you think carbs is as good as fuel injection. Imagine an 20000rpm formula 1 engine(older ones) converted to a single holley dominator. Flow is enough, but.....
Efi has its advantages. Most of these aftermarket units need To be utilized properly in my experience. A well tuned carb works just fine, a lot of people think they need these systems, at the end of the day they don't, it's marketing.
7:20 Is he British or something? "I spent a lot of time in hospital" is something no native American English speaker would ever say. A brit would say that though. Maybe an Aussie as well, but there is no real accent I can hear. "I spent a lot of time in the hospital" is the American way of saying that.
Hi do you know what carburettor will fit on on 1987 gm 4.3 v6 or an I going to need a new manifold also because I did not want a 4bbl unless no other choice ?? tired of electronic un reliable
I like the idea of EFI. If it were perfected and made to be a quality product I’d be all in. But…. The systems are sketchy , made to sell, junk. Just like all the newer MSD stuff. I won’t run it. I’ve removed a bunch of it. Because it failed. My carburetor doesn’t fail. It may develop an issue. But, it doesn’t fail. It doesn’t leave me walking for a week while special parts come in. That’s fine if you don’t know how to use a screwdriver and a vacuum gauge but, I do. So, hard pass on all EFI and MSD consumer crap. And my high compression, radical cam car flick starts with no choke just like EFI. There’s a vid of me doing it on my page. So there’s no upside to EFI. But there’s always a power loss. Just say no.
i don't think it will change with sniper 2 because its Holley its a big brand if i was a small unknown brand. they could disappear. holley sell enough carbs to probably fund all there efi stuff
Every one i know has gone qft so i did and luck would have it i ended up with a bad carb but didn't know till it was out of warranty. Talked to andy about my issues and a holly engineer. Unfortunately out of warranty so nothing i can do until i can afford to replace it im stuck with it acting like garbage. But most i know are very happy with their qft carbs
Awesome video Andy and David. You knocked it out of the park with this one. I'm a carburetor guy through and through although I do believe EFI has its place. I worked on factory systems, daily, for many years so I have a pretty darn good understanding of how it works. As for the aftermarket stuff... I like it but it's not something I'd really depend on to reliability work for years to come. As for your question Andy, it's hard to say. I was recently given a brand new unused First gen Pro Jection system minus the wire harness and fuel pump. I figured what the heck, it'd be a fun project and make some good content for the channel to see if I can get it up and running. Believe it or not, I was actually able to buy the harness brand new from Holley. Also the ECT sensor and closed loop harness. I sourced a compatible Bosch O2 sensor and will be using a less expensive off brand fuel pump. Oh and I was still able to download the manual off Holley's website. I'm all in to this thing for a little under 100 bucks and I'll eventually get around to making it work on some low performance build in the future. So long answer is yes I believe support may continue at least for the Holley owned products. Thanks again for another great video! -Tony
Jody, no as of now he isn't doing any seminars. He has had on going health issues. We have talked about doing it again in the future but can't give any timeframe Thanks for watching Andy
I have had good luck with Holley, Quick Fuel and BLP, and will try AED on David's recommendation. The 'software" I use for those is the Holley book by Dave Emanuel I bought in the early 80's, and David Vizard's Holley book witch is fantastic. I have Ford EECIV on one of my cars, so as far as counting on support in the future, I am a no vote.
Man thats a nice carb. If your not looking to keep it stock carb all the way but if ita a stock daily and oe is efi let it be. God bless and hope your doing good david
