Gavin Ortlund and Icons: Did We Change His Mind?

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18 сен 2023

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@Seraphim-Hamilton 9 месяцев назад

To learn more about how to critically engage Protestant theology from Biblical exegesis alone, consider signing up for these courses: Answering Protestantism from the Bible (17 hrs): buy.stripe.com/dR62bz6Y467KdfGcMM Answering Calvinism from the Bible (6 hrs): buy.stripe.com/aEUeYl4PW0Nq5Ne7su Answering Protestantism from the Bible & Answering Calvinism from the Bible bundle (24 hrs): buy.stripe.com/9AQ8zX4PWeEg1wYeUY Topic list for Answering Protestantism from the Bible: 1: Why Answer Protestantism from the Bible? 2: The Arc of Biblical Theology: Creation, Covenant, Redemption, Glorification 3: How Does Christ Purchase Salvation? 4: Justification, Deification, and Imputation 5: Justification, Deification, and Imputation (2) 6: Liturgical Worship in Biblical Theology 7: What Happens in Baptism and the Eucharist? 8: Apostolic Succession, the Holy Priesthood, and the Visibility of the Church 9: The Communion of Saints: Veneration and Intercession 10: The Woman: The Virgin Mary in Scripture 11: Now Mine Eyes Have Seen: Iconography and Idolatry 12: The Biblical Doctrine of Tradition --- Michael Garten's research on pre-Nicene veneration of images can be found on his Substack: michaelgarten.substack.com/. His upcoming book will argue that image veneration was widely approved of and practiced in the pre-Nicene Church. To access all his articles and support his (self-published) book project, please become a premium subscriber of his Substack. His latest premium article makes an in-depth case that Saint Methodius of Olympus (260-211 AD) taught the veneration of images of angels: michaelgarten.substack.com/p/pre-nicene-image-veneration-4-saint To view one of Michael’s replies to a critic of our second video, see here: michaelgarten.substack.com/p/reply-to-an-objector-re-image-veneration

@sovereigngrace9723 8 месяцев назад

Are your lessons all in video format? Thank you!

@paulr5246 9 месяцев назад

Great point. The problem with us moderns is that we live in a world stripped of Hierarchy, where we practice very little honor for even our most esteemed leaders. Thank God for the Orthodox Church and its restoration of proper reverence in the West.

@nathanhornok 9 месяцев назад

Yes, us moderns look at the behavior and attitude of the ancients and think they are obsequious and superstition, not realizing that it is us who are the odd ones, who have stripped our perceptions of all symbolic meaning and banished from our relationships all honor and reverence. Icons are the polar opposite of this flat irreverent attitude to which we are enslaved.

@MichaelGarten 9 месяцев назад

Yes--and one of the key things we miss out on as a result is the entire idea of an "intrinsically-honorable object", the very mention of which implies ceremonial action would be done towards it. The main example of this we retain in America is the flag, but if we look into the past every culture seems to have an abundance of things like this. You'll see me dig into this more in the upcoming videos. Thank you for watching!

@NavelOrangeGazer 9 месяцев назад

@@MichaelGarten and ironically the flag is one of the few objects the reformed/baptist types that protesteth too much will venerate.

@vimalpatel4060 9 месяцев назад

@@NavelOrangeGazer So, in a way worship is happening, but just lower down the hierarchy. Flags, nation's or one's own idea of Jesus, to name a few. Is that the gist of it, Navel?

@bad_covfefe 9 месяцев назад

@vimalpatel4060 I wouldn't consider it worship at all. As the other commenters touched on, in western society we simpky have such a lack of revwrence that to us any reverence at all seems like worship. Truly sad.

@mosesbauer5856 9 месяцев назад

I can't imagine this, but I'm hopeful. I do see people waking up. John Mark Comer is a good example of this. Liturgical worship is inevitable. However, Liturgy cannot simply be a layer built on incomplete or false presuppositions. These are hard teachings.

@traditionallenses 9 месяцев назад

is John Mark Comer introducing liturgical worship into his non denom church?

@TheJason909 9 месяцев назад

How do you see JMC "waking up" ?

@mosesbauer5856 9 месяцев назад

I've been following his material entitled Practicing the Way. It is very much in keeping with traditions and practices inherent in Orthodoxy. It's quite beautiful, and more folks in my circle are taking up things such as these. There is an awakening to the patterns of reality which are well understood in Orthodoxy.

@ThomasG_Nikolaj 9 месяцев назад

@@mosesbauer5856 what good is it doing Liturgy in a Protestant church though? They should just become Orthodox rather than becoming more "liturgical" in their protestant churches.

@MichaelGarten 9 месяцев назад

We're not necessarily saying Dr. Ortlund is softening in his resolve, but that he has conceded or implicitly conceded certain things which (when you draw out their logical implications) are in tension with his original argument (either by undercutting it or rebutting it).

@hermanessences 9 месяцев назад

The "for you have not yet seen my form" part in Deutoronomy is an interesting one. I hope Gavin will make another video.

@mariannacoomes1094 9 месяцев назад

Thank you for making these videos!

@andrefouche9682 9 месяцев назад

As a Catholic brother, I really enjoy your videos.

@danielcalisthenics1339 9 месяцев назад

You are not our brother yet, you need to get baptized into the true Church.

@jamesjacob4002 9 месяцев назад

@@danielcalisthenics1339Catholics are already baptized. Why would he need to be re-baptized?

@andrefouche9682 9 месяцев назад

@@danielcalisthenics1339 I understand you are rooting for the Orthodox church but re-baptism? Anyway I didn't come here to debate only to express my gratitude for the work Seraphim is doing. We have much in common.

@danielcalisthenics1339 9 месяцев назад

@@jamesjacob4002 it is not re-baptism, he was never baptised. Don't you confess in the Lithurgy, when the Creed is chanted, that there is one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and one baptism for the remission of sins. Reception with Chrismation is an exception and not the rule.

@danielcalisthenics1339 9 месяцев назад

@@andrefouche9682 We have also many differences, but you roman catholics with your ecumenistic mindset wanna disregard those and only look at the things in common. We are not the same faith and we will never be unless the Pope repents of the 1000 years of heresy and adopts all the Orthodox teachings.

@aaronwolf4211 9 месяцев назад

Progress! Bit by bit, truth doesn’t just unite but it wins. Praying that Dr. Ortlund comes to see the fullness of the truth.

@robertbecker1405 9 месяцев назад

The prokeimenon: "I shall commemorate thy name in every generation and generation" comes to mind. Definitely language denoting veneration from a liturgical standpoint.

@robertbecker1405 9 месяцев назад

Let alone the more obvious (and from a protestant perspective jarring) examples of commemoration in the services that constitute veneration and aren't (unlike the above prokeimenon) a direct quotation of scripture.

@Wraithninja1 9 месяцев назад

I'm glad you guys aren't bashing Gavin. He is one of the first Protestants on RU-vid to address Orthodoxy with research and thoughtful arguments rather than knee-jerk reaction. He really moved the conversation beyond "Why are you interested in those weird Russian Catholics?" and "Icons are tradition so, shuttup, heretic!"

@TheFeralcatz 9 месяцев назад

I agree, he seems like a sharp guy who genuinely cares about the truth. Imagine how good he'll be once he receives the holy Spirit in the Orthodox Church.

@pero33403 9 месяцев назад

Yes, I agree with you completely, but it would be wrong to leave Gavin where he is presently and not lead him further towards the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

@pigetstuck 9 месяцев назад

@@TheFeralcatz you don’t think he has received the Holy Spirit?

@shobudski6776 9 месяцев назад

@@pigetstuckBecause he isn’t in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

@pigetstuck 9 месяцев назад

@@shobudski6776 Does the Eastern Orthodox Church teach that other Christians haven't received the Spirit?

@Hezron389 12 дней назад

There is this weird conclusion: “Yes images were used, yes mages are in the holy place of temples/synagogues, but they were never venerated.” The very act of MAKING an image or icon is adoration or admiration. Why do painters paint ? Adoration. You might say what does bowing down and kissing have to do with anything ? Because it’s when truly moved that’s what you do. I remember reading my Bible one day and just being in awe I closed it and “bowed” to it bringing it to my forehead. Why would we just merely gaze at the icon or image or even the Bible itself? We aren’t supposed to be passive about these things. Icon veneration is a natural outgrowth.

@Timoboza 9 месяцев назад

At 53:56 Seraphim says that the Temple is a symbolic of the body of God. Elsewhere Seraphim has said that the Temple symbolises Creation itself. With the outer court corresponding to the Earth, the Holy place corresponding to the visible heaven and the Holy of Holies corresponding to the heaven above the heavens which is God's Throne Room. Would this mean that Creation itself also symbolises God's body? If so, what implications does this have on our understanding of the Incarnation? Thanks for all the content you make. It is really edifying

@redrifter9586 9 месяцев назад

Yes. Saint Palamas and Saint John Damascus have compared the Essence Energy distinction to the Soul and Body, which makes more sense considering the macrocosmic ideas of Saint Maximus the Confessor.

@OrthosAlexandros 7 месяцев назад

+Timoboza That's because the Temple is described in the terms of body, as the creation itself is patterned after the Personal Divine Blueprint of the whole creation in whom all of the archetypes and logoi are summed up - the Logos of God

@kentwood9821 4 месяца назад

When the 2nd commandment was delivered, bowing down to and worshipping graven images was very common. This is clearly a reference to the Pagans, where, "if one god doesn't work, try another". In the first 2 commandments God is saying, "I'm it. Search no more." The rest are about cleaning up your act as a child of God. Worshipping Christ/God and venerating the saints, his mother and his disciples is not wrong, and never, ever will be wrong, be it through images, words or your own imagination.

@ThruTheUnknown 9 месяцев назад

To be fair though the orans figure isn't venerated itself as far as we know?

@MichaelGarten 9 месяцев назад

Hello @ThruTheUnknown , it depends on which portrait-orant image. Some of the orants have a kind of upward-directionality, routing attention to the Good Shepherd (or a Staurogram, etc.) above through the hand gesture and focus of their eyes. Others have an outward-directionality, routing attention more in their own direction by creating a sense that the pictured figure is facing the viewer. The great contemporary scholar of the catacombs, Norbert Zimmerman, notes this distinct outward-directionality and concludes that it implies veneration of the image in his contribution to the Routledge Companion to Early Christian Art: "However, in the majority of portraits the individual depicted looks straight ahead out of the image, as if to make eye contact with the viewer. And this seems to be their function in most cases: to communicate directly with the viewer in the moments of cultic commemoration and contemplation. At least two times a year the family held a meal and visited the tomb, during the rosalia (feast of roses), the commemoration day for the deceased, and the day of passing away, regarded by Christians as the deceased’s birthday to the eternal life." Please take a look at my article here for more detail and examples of the distinction: open.substack.com/pub/michaelgarten/p/archeology-of-image-veneration-part?r=22dy1m&

@ThruTheUnknown 9 месяцев назад

@@MichaelGarten Thanks for the useful information very interesting to know. While those images would have been used for a ritual celebration and feast for commemoration, how would that establish the veneration of images we have today? As the modern practice would arguably be different. The substack page doesn't seem to make a substantial connection between the two for me at least. Granted this is a very different practice to any form of protestantism that's for sure.

@MichaelGarten 9 месяцев назад

@@ThruTheUnknown veneration means actions which acknowledge the honorable status of a person or object. It's a broad category, and bowing and kissing are just two forms that this takes when directed towards icons. We cover some of this in the video, and I'd be curious if you have an objection to my arguments I give from Scripture that there are various other kinds of veneration. I can say that as an Orthodox Christian, much of my veneration of icons takes exactly this form of a ritualized "looking" and doesn't always have to be accompanied by additional postures or gestures (I'm not unusual in this regard). So I actually think that this is an area where pre-Nicene and "later" Orthodox practice match: acknowledgement and the giving of attention is itself a form of honor. We're not trying to prove that all the practices endorsed at II Nicea were present early on, just that the early Church approved of and practiced some forms of image veneration; this suffices to show that Dr. Ortlund's universal claims are false, and there is no internal critique of Orthodoxy from the early Church. That being said, bowing towards images is something I brought up examples of here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-nvvnb5rH-qM.htmlsi=ESeCK5xFmKG5-WID

@OrthodoxInquiry 9 месяцев назад

So much Protestant cope in the comments lol

@pero33403 9 месяцев назад

Please, let's be gracious and polite towards protestants as many of us were in their shoes not long ago. I am an ex-Catholic myself.

@delgande 9 месяцев назад

@@pero33403protestants are basically Muslims if we're being honest

@Spookyjordan 3 месяца назад

This is the second video I’ve listened to. Maybe I’m too much of a slowboi but all I see is talking about talking. Framing and reframing Ortlund’s objections: “is he saying this? Or this? Cause if it’s this then that’s a different question than this.” Never getting around to a substantive response, just drawling on and on. I started clicking these videos cause I was told they were excellent responses. Instead I get a never ending lecture with no point in sight.

@user-ip8hq8hh4p 3 месяца назад

There is actually two issues the first is making a graven image and the other is the distinction from venerate/worship. To the first question in the Old Testament making an image of God was forbidden because it was before the incarnation and the material world had not yet been sanctified by Christ's coming. To the second question in the Orthodox Liturgy there is a clear difference between worship given to God or Christ and veneration given to the saints. Furthermore, all icons are icons of Christ either the inner Jesus within the saint or Jesus Christ on Earth thus all veneration is too Christ. There is also the question of praying to saints ,but the word pray in this context means to make a request to the saint not give worship. We request that the saint intercede for us to Christ the only mediator between God and man.

@stephenbailey9969 9 месяцев назад

There is illustration. Then there is idolatry. How something is being used depends on the mind, heart, and words of the one who practices. As Paul pointed out the principle in 1 Corinthians 8 regarding food sacrificed to idols, we should not use our Christian freedom to stumble those who are weak. That is the law of love. Could the use of icons confuse or cause problems for those who come out of other religious traditions, or who may not be as sophisticated in practice as a scholar? If so, then the law of love should be considered.

@haronsmith8974 9 месяцев назад

LOL iconoclasts are closer to Islam than Christianity.

@stephenbailey9969 9 месяцев назад

@@haronsmith8974 The law of Christ is the law of love. Whatever we do, we should use his wisdom and love in making the choice. For example, what if some believers were raised as Hindus or indigenous peoples who participated in dressing, bowing before, and worshipping idols as representations of false gods? Would doing the same before icons or statues in a Christian church confuse them in their minds or tempt them to see no difference? As Paul said regarding the eating of meat sacrificed to idols in 1 Corinthians chapter 8, 'If it might stumble my brother, then I will never eat meat again.' It's not about mindless iconoclasm. Nor mindlessly accepting denominational norms of practice. It's about practicing so as to save the lives of others, to deliver their minds and hearts from falsehood, giving glory to the risen Christ.

@LadyMaria 7 месяцев назад

@@stephenbailey9969We can't read Holy Scripture then because other religions do that too. A huge one that relies on Sola Scriptura is Islam. So no more Sola Scriptura.

@stephenbailey9969 7 месяцев назад

@@LadyMaria It depends on what you consider the purpose of scripture. How did the early Christians use it? For what goal? In the end, all scripture serves one main purpose: to point people to the living Word of God, the Messiah Jesus.

@LadyMaria 7 месяцев назад

@@stephenbailey9969 It was used as the Orthodox Church still uses it, as the Orthodox Church is the early Church. "It is the faith of the Orthodox Church that the Bible, as the divinely-inspired Word of God in the words of men, contains no formal errors or inner contradictions concerning the relationship between God and the world. There may be incidental inaccuracies of a non-essential character in the Bible. But the eternal spiritual and doctrinal message of God, presented in the Bible in many different ways, remains perfectly consistent, authentic, and true." [OCA] Without a holy framework of interpretation guided by the Holy Spirit (Holy Tradition) you get chaos instead of true interpretation which is the summation of the Protestant religion.

@pigetstuck 9 месяцев назад

The biggest issue Ortlund has is the requirement to venerate icons and the anathema toward those who disagree.

@NavelOrangeGazer 9 месяцев назад

His issue ultimately is that he thinks veneration is solely kissing icons. When the original iconclasts wanted them all destroyed. He's attempted to pick a nonsense middle position that historically and logically doesn't exist.

@pigetstuck 9 месяцев назад

@@NavelOrangeGazer What middle position?

@MichaelGarten 9 месяцев назад

I agree this may be correct, but the arguments he set out went beyond this. If his influential videos turn out to be based on incomplete consideration or evidence and some errors, it would be important to set that record straight

@pigetstuck 9 месяцев назад

@@MichaelGarten Beyond in what way?

@bad_covfefe 9 месяцев назад

@pigetstuck Basically he is assuming that the decree of the council means "you must kiss icons." "Venerate" does not mean "you must kiss them." The council decree is meant to stop people from disrespecting them or destroying them. "I don't want to kiss icons" is not what the council was referring to when it anathemetized iconoclasts.

@jdoe97 9 месяцев назад

52:15. Selective use of image reference in Ezekiel. Perhaps a better way would be to contrast those in the video with Ezekiel 8:9-13: And he said to me, “Go in, and see the vile abominations that they are committing here.” So I went in and saw. And there, engraved on the wall all around, was every form of creeping things and loathsome beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel. And before them stood seventy men of the elders of the house of Israel, with Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan standing among them. Each had his censer in his hand, and the smoke of the cloud of incense went up. Then he said to me, “Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the dark, each in his room of pictures? For they say, ‘The LORD does not see us, the LORD has forsaken the land.’” He said also to me, “You will see still greater abominations that they commit.” It's clear that the elders knew what they were doing was wrong, hence their reference to the Lord forsaking the land as an excuse. Compare these images to the images in the verses in the video and both were images in the temple, but I think the point is if God doesn't specifically prescribe the imagery for His place of worship then it is idolatry. Tabernacle/temple imagery was intended to invoke the setting of God/presence of God. However for those of us in Christ, no invocation of God's presence is needed. Post-Pentecost we have the Spirit dwelling inside us. Jesus promised that if a few of us were gathered in His name, He would be present. We are the true icons and God is present in our midst. Why the need for paintings?

@Todd_Thinks 15 дней назад

This video misses the whole point of what Gavin is saying. His primary point is that this is clearly an ACCRETION and has no historical or scriptural basis. Trying to reason your way into whether not we can “create but not honors icons” is a red herring. Gavin is saying that we have historical documents (not tot mention the clear testimony of scripture) that the early church was explicitly AGAINST this practice but you’re saying that it’s apostolic in origin, which it clearly is not. This is an accretion, which isn’t a bug of Catholicism, but a feature.

@Hezron389 12 дней назад

It’s not an accretion. The synagogue of Dura Europas and the Roman catacombs clearly show VERY early iconography. And most examples of where the church fathers are railing against images they aren’t talking about iconography. And even if ONE church father disagrees it doesn’t matter because we don’t follow just one person. It’s the Tradition of the Church as a whole. For example, the Coptics split in the year 451 about, yet they have the same iconography in their temples and theology. Council of Elvira (while not ecumenical or correct) shows that images WERE used in the early Church. Dr. Ortlund’s claims are from silence or quote mining the fathers. Why we would we think that icons should be widespread anyway? It was expensive to even have the scriptures (which weren’t fully canonized until a much later council) let alone icons.

@Todd_Thinks 12 дней назад

@@Hezron389 this issue more than any shows why I am not nor would ever be Catholic. The level of mental gymnastics, Catholics have to go to to defend this garbage is astounding. It is a lie that “one “church father disagrees with iconography. Second, showing artwork and someone’s catacomb is not the same thing as saying, the people prayed two or through it. If Catholics were really concerned about protestants resisting their so-called authority, they’d learn to stop defending the indefensible, and that would create some level of trust. Consequently, the church has essentially come to believe that they cannot be wrong, therefore permanently calcifying their accretions and errors. #soloscriptura

@Hezron389 12 дней назад

@@Todd_Thinks I mean. This is an Orthodox video, which is very different from Catholicism.

@Hezron389 12 дней назад

@@Todd_Thinks If the Church is always fallible then the canon of scripture is fallible and I can choose based on my own feeling whether to have this book or that book in my own personal canon. Your reasoning is inconsistent. You can’t say the Holy Spirit chose to preserve this Tradition or another. Where is your justification that He didn’t preserve the unwritten Traditions but ONLY preserved the Scriptures? How do you even know you have the proper canon ? Back to icons, the fact that people make icons is in itself an act of veneration. You adore someone or something so you replicate it, imitate it or him or her. The kissing the icon is a different way to venerate. I remember bringing my Bible to my forehead (“bowing”) and thanking God for the Scriptures as a Protestant. It’s natural and proper.

@Todd_Thinks 12 дней назад

@@Hezron389 “If the Church is always fallible then the canon of scripture is always fallible…” I do not understand what makes you think this is a rational statement. The Church is ALWAYS fallible but GOD is always INFALLIBLE. The Bible is GOD’s work, and God can not err, therefore his word cannon err. His does not NEED an infallible instrument to accomplish His will, and any instrument with the attribute of infallibility is granted that attribute by God. What you’re saying literally makes no sense. However, if you believe that an obviously fallible institution (The Catholic Church) possesses infallibility, you necessarily calcify and guarantee irreversible error, hence the Protestant Reformation which rejects Rome and all of her grotesque errors

@davidjanbaz7728 9 месяцев назад

I am laughing that you think we need to go through icons : since God himself tore down the Curtain of divide between the Holiest Place that only the High Priest could visit once a Year : to access by every Christian to the Throne of Grace without Priests or Gatekeepers! By the indwelling Holy Spirit that makes us worthy to approach the Throne of Grace without any type of physical Mediator of veneration : Icons , passed on Saints or Mary.

@gch8810 9 месяцев назад

I am laughing because you clearly don’t understand Orthodox theology regarding icons, yet you really think you do. Matter has been made holy because of the incarnation. Therefore, icons are not to be rejected but venerated.

@marincusman9303 9 месяцев назад

I’m Protestant and you clearly don’t have a correct understanding of the role of icons in the Orthodox Church

@lucduchien 9 месяцев назад

Your statement suggests you have a reluctance to approach physical intermediaries. I hear an assumption that physical intermediaries are bad or destructive. Your statement also suggests that Jesus came to free us from the physical world and deliver us to the spiritual world. It is as if there is an assumption in your worldview that the material world is to be rejected as inferior and unable to reflect God's glory and holiness, that we should be seeking a pure and direct spirituality. These are the basic tenets of Gnosticism.

@tonyl3762 9 месяцев назад

"need to go through icons" This is a straw man. No one is arguing for the need for icons, just the legitimacy and propriety of them.

@ThruTheUnknown 9 месяцев назад

Im curious and laughing that early Christian's thought they had to go through Paul's handkerchief to be healed or even Peter or Paul themselves. Those idolatrous people should have just gone to God himself for dealing.