GR86 RTV Engine Failures: thoughts from a former Subaru Master Tech 

"Baffling" lol...punny

the really amazing part is that plenty of guys with little knowledge in comparison to an OEM can seal a pan better in their garage

Subaru just doesn’t give a shit. There’s no reason to put a boxer in a modern cheap car, it’s just a worse design than an i4. But they don’t it because they can’t do any better. Stop buying these things, you already know it’s going to have a stupid problem in advance.

@@aluisious how is it worse

@@roboticunclephil overly complicated for what it is

Its what make a Subaru...a Subaru

Their engines have been unreliable for a good long time and sales are only increasing so I doubt this is going to hurt them in the long run.

I mean it's a pretty simple fix and then they're perfectly reliable. It just got blown out of proportion because of toyota not staying true to warranty. If subaru did the same with all their previous issues with the EJ engines, then they would've been sued 100 times over. It's very likely that almost every performance car, the first few model years will have some occasional catastrophic issues. Don't buy the first model year, or don't complain.

@@Toymonkeyjr thats fair. Disasterous was too strong of a word. My concern is mote about the perception of the warranty than the actual failures. Lots of buyers who may have been considering buying one and tracking it are now going to have second thoughts and consider another car instead when they would not have had this story never happened.

@@Bones12x2 Everyone I know who wants one is still trying to get one lol, this hasn't stopped them at all. just something to be anxious about.

My assitant had the same sentiments while we were filming

Apologies for the sound!

That’s my question.

Thanks for the kind words. We do our best!

So many chances for commentary that would get me in trouble with HR.

Thank YOU for the watch!

Glad you enjoyed it

Its even tougher in the US auto industry where dealer technicians are literally getting paid half of their normal wage on warranty jobs Like why even try to do a good job when you are getting half your normal wage. Why not just pretend you cant duplicate the customer concern and more on to the next repair ticket.

@@CMAutohaus Wow, half rate? That is the worst incentive if I ever saw one! No wonder so many people complain of cars never being the same after warranty work. Is it the manufacturer only paying half rate or is the dealer service manager pocketing the half?

Thanks for the watch and sorry about the audio!

Appreciate the kind words! Just doing my best to produce quality, informative content.

I hope ur right bro. I still want to get the 86 in Jan of next year.

@@lawnmower6591 Every production car has its flaws and issues especially in the first model year. The first gen 86/BRZ had a similar issue that was later corrected. Then when the facelift or kouki model came out was eliminated entirely. I wouldn’t let all this stuff sway you away from buying one of these cars. I’d argue there’s a higher chance you may not have issues at all. My 2017 has been a great car and experience 🤷🏻‍♂️

@Christian Medrano thank you bro. I'll keep you updated.

Yeah I was surprise to see them be this "reliable" as a first model year...until now.

Worked at toyota in australia when they first came out. there was a heap of "soft" recalls that weren't know about. Tail lights not being tightened enough was one for example.

@@Mr_jz_12 Agreed. You had to manually sift through the TSBs or tech tip news letters to find them.

have fun waiting then

@@Sinancan93 Rude but ok. Have fun spending money on a brand new ticking bomb car engine.

It was entirly cost related unfortunatly. During my time at Subaru we saw plenty of cost cutting throughout the chassis

@@CMAutohaus Do you own a Subaru? Would like to know what you drive now.

@@saulespino2510 Ive never owned a "Subaru." I used to own a Series 1.0 FRS which I used to compete in time attack. Right now my fleet consistes of: 2015 Tacoma Xrunner, 1994 R33 Skyline, 1985 AE86

Hack saw is the brute force way, but they make specific oil filter "cutter" or "inspection" tools.

Someone noted the grey 85 Trueno in pt1. Knew I had to have this one in the background for pt2.

Thank you for the kind words. In my experience, it seems like the Kouki 1st gens dont have this issue and the RTV issue with the Zenki cars was caused by technicians - not the factory

The RTV issue on early first-gen was from technicians incorrectly performing the valve spring recall - anything produced MY15+ wouldn't have had that issue as the valve springs were updated by then 😊 So to be clear, no RTV issues from factory throughout the life of the first-gen. It's difficult to say they should have the process locked down for second-gen since it is a different motor to the first-gen cars - same family but 2.4L now. If you're keen on buying one I'd honestly wait 1-2 years or so for them to sort out any warranty issues that pop up.

@@tomh434 You are absolutely correct. But to be more alittle more specific, the 1st gen valve springs were updated during the 2013 model year. Meaning every 2014 has the updated valve springs, and a lot of 2013’s have them as well. For the 2013’s you would need to check each car’s VIN individually before buying. A quick few minutes to save $$$ is probably worth it to buyers who are looking for the best deal on a FRS/BRZ. I have a 2013 with the newer springs from factory that never had a recall issued.

Someone else argued the strainer should be placed at the bottom of the pick up where debris can still fall down rather than at the top where it currently is and debris gets stuck.

@@CMAutohaus I thought about that earlier and it is an option. The only problem I see with that option is screen surface area. It would have to be at least equal strainer surface area. If you look at current screen/strainer, there a top horizontal screen and 4 vertical walls of screen. Also if the screen was at the bottom with large surface area, you would be in the same position of having to drop headers and pulling pan to clean strainer. However, it is an option.

Its what makes a Subaru - a Subaru

@@CMAutohaus I'll never own another subaru product... we're done!! Toyota/Lexus for now on... after I'm done with this 370z...

@@07wrxtr1 GR86 is a Toyota product lol. Toyota also owns a large stake in Fuji Heavy Industries (Subaru).

@@07wrxtr1 Welp, may as well wait for GR corolla(or Yaris if you live outside of the US) Or maybe the rumored MR2 if it does ever come out. Since that's actually made by Toyota lmao.

Isn't the "gold standard" for RTV to bolt the pan down immediately after application to hand tight, then cure to spec before torquing to final torque? I waited a few days to torque to spec but I was waiting on parts anyways.

Thank you!

Absolutely worth it. Jackson racing Gen2 oil cooler kit is also out now

Noted and will do! Apologies for the sound!

@@CMAutohaus love the content that you do man!

Now there is no sound at all...

@@HyadumHH Sound is from right side only, Check your headphones/speakers

@@CMAutohaus It is only on the right side only. Disorienting when listening through headphones.

There have been lawsuits for oil consumption also for Subaru chain engines in the past.

Lol toyobaru

The oil pressure switch is useless in a Subaru: you can have oil pressure with 1 qt of oil in the engine. I use to see this all the time on schedule maintenance. Subaru's oil consumption spec is 1 qt in 1,300 miles. So if you followed the 6 month 7500 mile oil change spec and never topped off your oil, I'd normal to only have 1 qt of oil left in your engine come oil change time - no warning lights. Saw it all the time.

@@CMAutohaus Thank you

Excellent point. Noted.

Wouldn’t the oil filter catch them?

@@GreatGrandmasterWang the intake oil SCREEN catches the worms of gasket and THAT clogs and causes oil starvation to the pump and everything downstream. So it's a problem before the oil filter. Note I learned the hard way to make sure all the varnish was out of the head oil passages on a rebuild one time. The shop that did the valve seats and machined the deck had solvent tanked the head but evidently not long enough or hadn't blown it out well either. So the varnish became small flakes off the head areas and washed down into the oil pan. Picked up the car, everything looked fine and started driving home. Oil pressure light came on 20 miles down the road. The shop that did the head job wouldn't take any responsibility so I had it hauled home and dropped the pan and found the varnish flakes just totally covering the oil pickup screen! This was anotherToyota Cellica (yes, I liked them) with 162k miles and it has always had good oil changes and showed great oil pressure prior to this but it was enough to wipe the bearings, pulled a main and it was trashed. So a head job I farmed out instead of doing myself cost me a whole engine rebuild (note that I drove that car another 200k AFTER the rebuild and finally the rear end went out so I moved on, good car) What was REALLY bad and why I'd had the head job done 'professionally' instead of doing it myself was my wife was pregnant and about to pop... So as I had the engine pulled out hanging on the hoist she came outside to tell me I needed to take her to the hospital, it was time. Delayed the rebuild a couple of days. Why did that bullet proof 22R engine need a head? Well, my wife raced it and a week before she'd sheared the OHC in half RIGHT INSIDE THE MIDDLE BEARING! So the front two cyl were running and the back two were dead! She told me the car had started running rough and had no power, hahaha. And that's why I had to buy a salvage yard head and have it reworked (and a shop do the job instead of me since I was snowed under with other work)

Glad you found this useful!

@@CMAutohaus heard of any of the same issues with the FA24T? new Wrx?

@@jasoncee666 Good question. Not quite sure if the two share similarites like place of manufacturer, failure rate, ect But you bring up a great point

Like when spongebob left and the jellyfish were having a rave in his house. I know - one can only dream...

I'd try every 10k miles until we get more data on the RTV situation

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-2ZCzLtIhMzw.html If you plan to track the car Id drop the pan at 1000 miles and clean te oil strainer

Who knows? But I'm not optimistic. Subaru/Toyota historically have liked to keep these issues "hush hush"

yes

Thicker oil will exacerbate any issues caused by a blocked screen because of turbulence? Overfilling is probably fine as you super don't want to even be a milliliter under filled with these but yeah..

@@Ch3mG33k Well you would never want anything blocking the screen and while at it do some upgrades instead of doing just an inspection.

Glad you found this useful!

Best bet is replace the short block or long block. You have to disassemble the engine to change the big end bearings

Absolutly

@@CMAutohaus :(

I wished they didn’t put a boxer engine… the car looks really clean it’s a shame

@@crazymonkey60123 it's not the engine's fault if it isn't assembled correctly

I dont recommend Subaru cars to anyone. I dont believe in Subaru of America's morals, how they treat their employees, or the build quality of their cars.

Thank YOU for the watch!

As a technical we are taught that repair orders are legal documents. I still wouldnt take the chance on something handwritten.

@@CMAutohaus I used to work for BBB Auto Line. An arbitrator has some leeway to decide what is relevant to a claim and a judge would use rules of evidence under that jurisdiction.

Its what makes a Subaru...a Subaru

force kaizen? Every single car manufacturer kaizens their vehicles, just to a lesser or more extent. This is a RTV issue, nothing to kaizen other than dial back the RTV on the assembly robot. Toyota wanted lower CG, that's why they went with Subaru (plus Toyota is majority share holder), so no they wouldn't have wanted an inline 4.

Still has risks. I rarely worked on track cars during my time at the dealership which means 99% of issue were with street/daily driver cars

I personally dont own one of these chassis, but our shop services majority of these in the greater Bay Area. The key with the big oil pressure drops on right turns is the stickier the tire and the more skilled the driver, the bigger oil pressure drops.

Apparently it saves a ton of cost just to have the robot silicone everything instead of having PNs for a bunch a gaskets The kicker is that Subaru uses basically the same engines across their model lines, so it wouldnt be that many PNs

@@CMAutohaus Just another example of the robots actually making things worse

Answered in pt 2 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-MkfcPK2CcEw.html

Hellz yeah. We need some sort of motivation!

I imagine it depends on the gap between the pan and the element it sits up against, as well as other factors like the size of the lip etc. So I would guess it's not just that it's by a robot, because the robot wouldn't be aware of those factors - it would be the amount of silicon it's been told to apply... which might be too much for the specs mentioned above.

@@MKu64 but wouldn't they have figured out how much before going into production?

@@Briguy288 I mean, you could say that about any mistake :) Things get missed. For something like this, hidden away in a hard to see place, I assume it's possibly something the QA inspectors didn't pick up on. Once it causes an issue for people they would become aware of it. Anything is possible though - maybe there is a malfunction with one of the robots that the nozzle puts out too much silicon, who knows really.

Robot? Mistake? Its Skynet bro...

@@Briguy288 why not just use an actual gasket instead of using toothpaste lol

Excess RTV in gen1 was dealer technician caused. In Gen2 it is a factory defect

Good question. Not quite sure if the two share similarites like place of manufacturer, failure rate, ect But you bring up a great point

Shiet, I may as well just save up not just for the car but an engine swap as well.

As far as i know it wasn't an issue for those engines. I used to own a 2017 wrx and researched everything heavily. Good car, but i traded it for a 21 sti.

2024 possibly. Hopefully late 2023 models the factory will have fixed the RTV issue.

Just get a base model Camaro or Mustang (before they take away the manual transmission for the base model next year).

I think the short answer is to pull the oil pan and check yourself. I actually already have Gen2 customers asking to remove the oil pan, clean the oil strainer, and remove excess silicone as a service. Dont risk it, not that much labor time to remove and reseal the lower oil pan.

@@CMAutohaus what about gen 1 ?

@Arun kumar I used to have a Gen1 I ran in time attack (86Drive Challenge). Very first things I did: Reseal oil pan/check oil pick up, Bluemoon oil pan baffle, Jackson oil cooler kit, ARP wheel studs

@@CMAutohaus thanks for all the info ? What oil did you run ? Will the Motul 300v 0w40 be ideal for the time attack ?

@@Arunkumar-bg5xk Any premium 0w20 is fine with an oil cooler. 5w30 has been recommended for forced induction guys. Never track your car w/ out can oil cooler

Absolutely

No official response, although Im sure Toyota/Subaru is aware of the issue as they made some updates on the later 2023s.

@@CMAutohaus thank you so much replying. I appreciate you and your channel.

I think that's why Toyota is testing their 3 cyl in this chassis - Subaru life lol

Ease of manufacturing. Same with the driver airbag - used to be screwed in with bolts, now there are spring clips - one step assebmly for the robot, but PITA to service/remove

Had issue with gasket material making seal.

Another term for silicone - used to seal the engine together

"I asked their service department if I can pull the pan to inspect, if I do I void the warranty." This isn't true. You could pull the pan and look. The laws covering warranties say they have to prove something you did caused a problem before they can deny it. If you screwed the job up and leaked all the oil out, then they wouldn't have to cover it.

@@quademasters249 that's what I thought! But I guess Toyota wants to fight us every way they can

These cars are still too new to see how often you have to clean the strainer. I'd like to drop another pan in one year.

buy a go kart. 0-60 in 1.5 seconds for the top ones.

Wow I wish Subaru saw your comment that you just canceled. Should be a BIG red flag for the company.

Well put. Yes seems more like a QC issue as excess RTV is applied and also in the wrong places

Some pieces are thin or small enough to pass through, but I 100% agree. Dangerous for RTV to pass through the strainer

Im sorry, but that sounds terrible and I would NOT recommend anyone do that.

@@CMAutohaus I did it and is been working good so far. Even took the car to The Tail Of The Dragon and performed flawlessly

If you want a gen2 get the Subaru variant as they actually honor the engine warrenty

@@CMAutohaus ill keep that option in mind It's just that I'm worried about its engine durability from the design perspective. Never had a boxer engine myself. And I did took the worst time to buy a car with interest charges been too high (7.1%)

Correct

Dont be. They are wonderful cars, I want one myself. But the key is regular preventative maintenance and measures like borescope and oil filter inspections

@@CMAutohaus You're not too far from me Ezekiel. I'll have to pay you a visit t least once to check that out. Thanks man

It does seem like Subaru of America is far more willing to help than Toyota is.

@@CMAutohaus I genuinely appreciate the honest reply. Thank you.

"Truuuuu" - 2Chainz

Regular borescope and oil filter inspections!

Have you done this yourself? Unless there is a real failure (ie smoke from tail pipe, noise, oil consumption) to my knowledge, the dealer will not do a tear down.

@@CMAutohaus my subie service guy said it is a diagnostic service for rtv sil they drop it pick my car up for no charge. I have had no problems w the car. Glad I didn't get an 86 even though I love that cool blue 86.

In my experience, Subaru has be far kinder to its customers. I've seen miracles happen during my time as a dealer tech ie. a car with 60k miles get bought back.

Im sure I wont fix every one in the entire world, much less the Bay Area.

Watching you, master Ferrari technician here. 🤣

No such thing for Toyota/Subaru. Contacting corperate directly as a consumer is protocall.