Not really but think I went with the wrong cam I took out my stock 255 and went with a 259 not much difference and no head work what’s your thoughts on that
@@derrickw5660 255 cam works with stock compression. The 259 needs more compression to get the full benefit. Dynoed a 2009 dyna we did a 10.5 compression stock heads and throttle body took out his 107 and did 103. He went from 110 Hp 107 tw777 cam to 115 Hp 103 and 10.5 compression and the 259 cam
WoW, with all those numbers floating around in my head I'm going to have to watch this one two or three times. I always enjoy your channel thanks for the upload.
Thank you for touching on this topic. I've been dreaming of building my 2017 M8 up between 100-110 hp. Now I know my stock injectors will be able to supply my need.
@@GixxerFoo ive noticed the dyno results. Ive toyed with the idea of bumping up the displacement and a welded crank. Just bullet proof it.... them I remembered I hardly ever ride like a pissed off kid anymore. Amazing how long a motor lasts when your not nose to butt side by side in a pack at 90mph. My fender and fairing isn't sand blasted🤣
I was checking out the things on the wall,behind you,and I noticed that #21 plate on the poster.Will and I bought 1979,ya 125's at the same time,and we rode together every chance we had.That kid was a hell of a moto cross rider also!I couldn't even come close to him,when it got serious!he was a natural.he was crazy as hell,in a good way.i see his son quiet often,and he is a lot like Will.I have a LOT of awesome,and found memories of the good times that we had before he turned pro. Seeing that picture on your wall,tells me a little bit about where you come from,also. Thanks for some good,(no B.S.) videos,also! Thank you for supporting the REAL bikers! And if you knew Will ,personally,you should take some comfort in knowing that he lives,through an awesome son,Cole.I see it every time I see him!
I used to race flat track years ago and Will would always take time after the races to talk to me and give me tips! He was fast and it was always awesome to see him lay it down on the factory Harley guys! He is truly missed!
Excellent content, sir! Injectors start to require serious deliberation once you cross into projects that include considerations like headwork, changing compression ratios and boosted applications. Keep the great stuff coming!! Ride hard, ride fast, ride safe!
Thank you, I appreciate it! Once you start making some power closer 120 injectors can really start to hold you back. You can go from 110 horsepower to well over 120 with an injector swap, granted if your built motor is to the point it requires it.
for sure especially once you start going for more displacement n changing compression, thats why many guys end up with bad running bikes for choosing the wrong combo of parts, or have to put in a different cam n what not after doing a stage 2 already, n didnt plan ahead for what they may want to build too in the future
Had a couple of iron head sportie running S&S B’s. Had far more balls than my’05 injected 05 TC 88 off the bottom and through mid to top end. Still debating whether to keep EFI on the King,or go carb again so I can tune it to my riding style. I’m not a go fast rider, but like to go when I want to go. Home mechanic now, but was a full time Yamaha/Kawasaki‘technician’ in early’80s . Nobody touches my wheels except me.
That's awesome! My dad ran a Kawasaki shop for 30 years, I grew up on Kawasakis and Suzukis. The Power Vision is pretty good about tuning the FI, but a carb is always a good change over especially if you ever have problems with the FI.
It for sure did! They put that 96 and 103 on the ragged edge of being able to run lean without melting. Honestly the late Twin Cams were always running way too lean.
@@GixxerFoo Would a stock 103 benefit from the larger injectors they used on the 88 etc in order to cool the motor down? Or will the FP3 mapping be off since its based on the smaller injectors?
Thank you very much, very informative video. That may explain why my 2017 softail (103ci tbw) has gained so much power with an S&S .570 cams swap, even the HD dealer (honest man) that installed it was pretty surprised how strongly my bike runs
Another good one! Thanks! Have a 2008 bagger, Presuming that means it came w/ the 4.9 s. "upgraded" to the S&S easy start 551s. Using a Rush 2 to 1 exhaust ,big sucker air cleaner w/ a tune. Dyno #s were s just shy of 100 hp & torque. Pleanty for me. Appreciate your knowledge. Going to get away from the factory primary chain tensioner, adding an oil cooler & some kind of cooling fans this winter. Jury is still out on what fan unit(s).
That's awesome, those cams make a huge difference and 100hp with a 96 doing it right! You'll appreciate those upgrades once the summer heat rolls around again.
Dude, you really do great research for your videos and know what you are talking about. Been subbed and watching for a while. Please keep up the great work. God bless y'all!!
Thank you! I really appreciate it, Harley has really done a lot to try to work within the confines of emissions. The smaller injector was a huge contributor to the heat everyone complained about with that 96.
@@GixxerFoo Yes, the EPA is making it very difficult. I hope they don't ban gasoline engines but, there are people that would love it if they did. Those people don't realize how much battery components and electric motors cause environmental destruction... Have a great weekend, sir!!
Good morning Gixxer. I purchased a 2007 Ultra last year. The service manager couldn't find much info on the bike & it has true dual Rhinehart exhaust and a power box. ( not sure what they're really called) My issue is idling, it shakes and rattles at idle. It doesn't shake once you get it up to speed - smooths out. I put Screaming Eagle plugs in & changed the motor mounts. We checked for codes & all it showed was bad plugs wires which we changed. Still shaking. I'm a disabled veteran & controlling this beast at idle is a physical issue. Any thoughts?
It sounds like it has one of those inline fuel tuners, I would try a good flash tune on that bike and ditch the inline plug in fuel tuner. That usually cures a lot of issues.
Hey man.. I'm a little new to injected Harleys... I was watching your video on injectors today.. Now I'm not looking at peak numbers, I did a conservative build on my 2013 Dyna with a 103"er... I installed Hillside stage II heads with 85cc Chambers, a .030" head gasket and a Woods TW 5-6 cam.. CCP IS 207 psi.. I also did a small gear change.. I never swapped out the injectors.. Is this something I really need to consider...? The bike runs very well and my only issue is an iradic idle.. I'm still using the stock injectors.. Should I upgrade to the 4.3 or 4.9 injectors and it's it really worth it? I'm also using the Power Vision tuner.. Thanks Bob..
It wouldn't be a bad idea to look at moving up an injector size since you've got the heads done with a cam and some compression in there. If you've had it dyno tuned and your still running lean it might be something to take a look at.
I have a 06 Heritage Classic. Did they drop the injectors down in the 2006 TC 88 cable throttle? I want to bore out the cylinders to 98ci and port the heads. Just wondering if my injectors are the 4.35 as he said. Everything I have found says they are 3.91.
Question for you Gixxer, do you know what to look for when sizing injectors like when to know you need a larger size or when the ones you have are sufficient? How about matching flow rates ?
There's a formula to calculate your anticipated horsepower and the size of injector it would require. The formula is (hp x .5)/(2 x 80%) and then multiply the result by .126 to get the grams per second to match the horsepower you expect to make. That will get you pretty close, but sometimes during tuning you might have to make adjustments from there.
This helps explain why on zippers dyno sheets you see the carb 117 makes more power than a 124 efi. You would think they would think of bigger injectors though? 🤔
That makes a lot of sense, I'd be curious to know what size of injectors they had in the 124. A 124 with the right injectors should really put some power down!
I saw a 64mm throttle body that was a Screamin' Chicken version at my local Stealership last week. I couldn't believe the size of it, must've been for an M8
I have the SE 64mm CnC ported intake manifold w/ 64mm throttle body. It’s on my 2020 RGS SS 128 kit plus much more race goodies lol..6.3 gm/s injectors.
Thank you for your videos they help a lot, by any chance do you have a video on how to remove/replace the fuel injectors on a twin cam, I have a 2012 Harley CVO ultra classic electra glide with 110 CI engine, I want to replace the OEM injectors. Along with the injectors I am going to install thru dual exhaust system, a tuner kit with wideband o2 sensors and larger K&M air filter. Again thank you for your input. Mello
The injectors are easy to get out but you'll have to remove or just prop the tank up on the touring models. You should be able to get to them from the left side of the bike behind the horn.
Thank you! Usually a decrease in mileage is a result of enjoying that new found power, in a lot of cases performance parts make the engine more efficient.
The stock fuel pump will provide more than enough fuel to the injectors, you'd need to have a full blow race motor before the fuel pump would need to be upgraded.
I have a 2015 Electra Glide with the 103 HO would I see any benefit of a 4.9 injectors with a tune? I'm going to do cams but not right away. Just wandering with a Stage 1. I have 30000 miles and just want to get to stage 2 then I'm going to get the S and S 124 crate and get a project bike for the 103. Any time you could spare in a response would be greatly appreciated....
The good news is that higher volume injectors will almost alway work on unmodified engines. The computer will just shorten the time the injector is open. Technically it shortens the control pulse width.
Most cases that works but sometimes it can really mess with your low rpms. Tuning can be a pain losing resolution of the injector trying to run it on the lower end of its duty cycle.
Thanks. This was the question I was going to ask since I hadn't seen pulse width mentioned. But my question was going to be about increased pulse width (open time) and can't this be programmed (on dyno) to find optimum values (different pulse widths at varying rpms) or are pulse widths only allowed one value across the rpm range?
That's a very interesting subject on the larger throttle bodies. Harley seems to add larger throttle bodies where it's just not absolutely needed. It really depends on the bore size of the engine, a 110 with high compression and larger injectors can produce some big power with the stock throttle body. Now if you had a 124 Twin Cam a larger throttle body and injectors would become necessary. A larger throttle body on a otherwise stock big twin may give you a tiny gain. It's a big expense for very little gain on a otherwise close to stock motor.
Very possible, if you've put as much fuel in it as possible per given RPM and still lean I would say it's time to up the injector size. You could be running on the absolute top end of the injector duty cycle.
My 16 slim had tbw, my 15 switchback has cables, 103 HO versus 103? Anyway, planning on putting woods tw222 cam, slip on, tts tuner on switchback 103, what are your thoughts on bigger injectors for this setup. Thank you. And high flow airplanes going on also
I would stay with the stock injectors and get some tuning done on those first, with only a slip on and the bolt in cam the stock injectors will support that setup. If you tune it on a dyno, depending on the tuner they may see it running out of fuel and running at the top end of the injectors duty cycle. But with the that setup the stock injectors will be fine, now if you do some headwork later on injectors will be a must.
you make a good point. sorry to change topics but did you see that the new sportster has cruise control and a 6 speed? it sounds horrid with the stock pipe i think but everyone replaces those anyway. good vid
Thank you! That new Sportster S is awesome, they went above and beyond on that bike. The price is about 15K, still somewhat high but you get a lot for it. Aftermarket exhaust will do a lot for that bike, that twin will sound really good!
I’ve got a 2014 103” with an intake, 2>1 exhaust, and power vision with target tune now.. I’m thinking cams, heads, thinner gaskets and supporting parts.. injectors might make the list.. what say y’all?
I believe it was around 2014 HD put out a 103 & a high output 103 did they have the same injectors or was it only a cam change that made it a high output 103 ? I never gave it a thought till your video . I just got done installing Harleys high out put cams in a 2012 103 the bike definitely runs stronger & I made no tuner changes !
It was just a cam change, they went from something like a .496 lift to the .511 lift. Same injectors but the .511 cam made some decent torque over the .496 cam.
Once you start getting into the 100hp range a heavy duty clutch spring is a good idea. But if you have a cable clutch it really increases lever effort, here's a video on some clutch options ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-zYqx5BGvMW8.html.
That's a pretty good deal with a Evo engine if it's clean and the engine is good in it. 28,000 on a Evo, it has a lot of life left! Only thing on the Evo is you'll want to get a set of lifters in there around 40K. Evos have a gnarly push rod angle and the lifters tend to fail/come apart around 40K.
Which aftermarket cam (wallet friendly) replacement, would you recommend for a (2011 H-D FLHTK ) stock 103? Merely for the sound, especially at idle etc.
Wallet friendly on the Twin Cam is kinda tough, cam sets for a Twin Cam usually run $250 to $350. The Wood cams are going to be more expensive, but the other brands are somewhat cheaper. Here's my video on cams for the 103 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ixeV1wRzsoY.html, you'd probably like the S&S cams. They are some of the less expensive cams and they still perform really well.
It would cool the bike down for sure once it's tuned for the new injector size, you wouldn't necessarily see a horsepower gain though. Now if you added a bolt in cam instead of low to mid 90's for horsepower you may get closer to 100.
Just keep this in mind, anything north of 130HP on these bikes is risky, things are bound to break. These things aren't designed to handle that kind of power. Belts, Clutches, Flywheels start scissoring, Starters get eaten, cush drives get destroyed, all subject to failure and will require more wrenching and $$ to maintain. If you have that kind of cash flow to improve things of that nature then go for it.
That's no joke, you had better go front to back with the drive line if you're going that far with these motors. That Screamin Eagle 131R they built for King of the Baggers is like 160hp 160tq. But that's a full on race motor with only one job and those races are short.
Doesn't nearly every tuner tell you the duty cycle of the installed injector?? If your up to 90% or more they def need to be upgraded would be my guess and why wouldn't "tuners" already know that??
Great video as always! If you want to learn more about injectors, check out Richard Holdner's channel. He has a video on injector size and the math that goes into selecting the right injector. Of course, he is talking cars, but the same principal applies.
The throttle body really comes into play when you get into large bore sizes for example 120+. It becomes a factor when you're horsepower and torque are falling flat with large bores.
Most of the touring bikes are throttle by wire, more so after project rushmore in 2017. But prior to 2017 dynas and softails are cable operated throttle.
Those are pretty good numbers! The factory injector will run up to a 90% duty cycle, but then you get into a situation where you basically run out of fuel and lose control of the injector. A little bigger injector with some more fuel to match the setup can net you some more power and cool the bike down.
My friend have an multi cam road king 06 with this italian injetion,hes bike have tix of some sort,it seems like its misfire or jumping over one stroke.But when its rain or cold weather it run like normal,but on an warm day it start to trubble,there have been done something with this bike,there is other cams open cone air cleaner with an rain boot and custom exhaust. Is there something familjar with those things who had been done with this bike who make this problem,he menton to me that he have change the inlet temp sensor cause it was damage from backfire,we have looket at trottle sensor and it had the correct ohm at idle posicion,but what can cause this problem what he have with hes bike? Can it be chrank sensor failiure since it seems to work in cold weather or cold?
With the Magnetti Marelli system it could be a number of things, once those issues start they are very hard to track down. Usually once you start having issues with those converting over to carb is usually the best option.
@@GixxerFoo I was visiting him yesterday and we have an talk about hes bike,its not an 06 its an 00....we looked at several obsions,can it be an sensor who have gone bad? i think about chrank sensors or cam sensor if those have cracks or have some metal debree on the magnet who desturb the sensor,or maybe an bad connection some place....If he needs to build it over to carburator what do he need beside of carb-intake,does he need an new ignition module or can he seperate the module from the injetion module,or is it in the same module? i would use the lamda fiting to connect an meter to read the mixture,but its up to him,we will consentrate to make hes bike up an running again
No one is helping you so I will try. I admit I know nothing about HD motorcycles but I do know a bit about fuel injectors. In theory a 3.9 gram/sec injector (x2) at 80% will support 100 hp. A 4.3 gram/sec will support 10% more hp. The formula is (hp x .5)/(2 x 80%) and then multiply the result by .126 to get grams/second with hp being the hp you expect to make. I would ask the manufacturer of the kit which size fuel injector they recommend. Hopefully someone with more experience than me with these motors chimes in. Good Luck.
You can run the original injectors with that setup and they should perform at 90% duty cycle but you're really at the top level of what they can do. Moving up a little on the injectors would would give you some more breathing room for making power and the bike wouldn't run quite as lean. It's for sure something to consider if you're coming up short on horsepower and torque.
Good vid. The fart at the end is beneath you. Get it, Beneath You? Serously, we don't need 12 year old schoolboy wit. Other than that thanks for the vid. Very informative.
I found your vid very informative. My only complaint is with your parting thought for your followers. I was so insulted that I unsubcribed. I don't need to be insulted for watching your vids. Thanks a lot
That's a interesting subject, the stock throttle body provides more than enough air for a Twin Cam. A throttle body really comes into play when you get up to some very large bore engines like 120+. A throttle body may give you a very minimal gain below that, but it's a big cost for very little benefit unless you've gone with a huge bore increase.
Never a Harley tech, just always done my own work and spent a lot of time in the shop learning. If you hang around long enough eventually that grump old mechanic will tell you to come over here and learn something.
I think another reason is to sell the customer useless upgrades that really do not increase power. They are relying on customers not knowing the difference between a four stroke and two stroke engine. The piston can only draw in so much premixed fuel and air when the valve opens.
One day HD engineers will realize they're living in the 21st Century and will stop pandering to the aging/dying 1% crowd and produce an engine that makes in excess of 100 HP out of the box and put it in a bike that weighs less than 600 lbs. On that same day HD will stop trying to relive the 1950s...and simultaneously, multiple people will take close up and in focus photos of Big Foot boarding a UFO piloted by Elvis.
Fortunately they are actually doing that now with the Sportster S and Pan America. Harley is actually branching out a bit, but they are still focusing on their core customer with the M8 as well.
I can buy a crotch rocket half the weight that'll do 180 mph for half the price but I'd rather have my piece of history. You know the saying if I have to explain you wouldn't understand ....
Direct injection is great but it too has it's own set of issues with valves becoming coated with oil. I wouldn't doubt if they moved to DI in the future though!
@@GixxerFoo Down side to DI is you need computer mapping because nothing is adjustable. Timing and fuel is all determined by intake sensors and exhaust . You can only get fuel controllers to add or take away fuel but they are plugged in overtop the stock system. That there is a money pit. Then there is finding a good shop with a guy that knows how to Dino-tune a bike.
Harley guys spending shit loads of money to try to make their bike more powerful!!! 😂😂😂😂😂😂 my Ducati multistrada has more power than I could ever use , and I have never reved it over 7 grand , 😀😀😀😁😁🏍🏍🏍🏍🍺🍺🍺
