No, for a lot of people purchasing a bike, the aesthetics are important and having a clean, cable free looking bike is more important than the watts gained
To me the main reason for external cables that it allows the rider to choose any stem or handlebar available on the market. A really dialed in fit is way more important then any gains offered by Aero handlebars or internal cables. Add to that the ease of maintenance on external cables and it becomes self evident this trend is a step backwards. I also think in balance Rim brakes are a better choice a road bike. Guess I'm old school. I prefer my ten-year-old road bike to anything that could buy now.
This. A proper bikefit with optimal stem length+rise and handlebar witdth+reach+drop can be more biomechanical efficient as wel as aerodynamic than those integrated stock solutions
I agree with internal cable routing but disagree with rim brakes. Apart from racing, brakes are the ultimate safety feature and they need to work in emergency situations. If you want to slow down before a curve the quality of your brakes doesn't really matter because you have the option to brake just a little earlier. In an emergency situation you need the absolute best brake performance and there disc brakes outshine rim brakes. Hopefully you will never need the extra braking power but if you need it saving some Watts or grams will not be worth the inferior performance.
Coming from MTB, my mind was blown by how terrible the brakes roadies would put up with are. Fair enough, they do the job in the dry, but once it's wet they're hopeless and they make an awful mess.
@@svenweihusen57 it’s not just about braking performance in an emergency situation. It’s also about how the rider handles it. Disc brakes when pulled hard in an emergency will bite quicker and sharper especially in the wet which will in turn lock up causing skidding. Handling this is a skill in itself that most people will fail miserably at causing them to crash. It may actually serve most people better with rim brakes. Plus if they had aluminium rims with decent pads the performance gains is negligible.
Yup, searched online for months in an effort to find a new bike, but couldn't find anything worth spending money on. Sticking with my 2015 Giant Defy, all external cables, rim brakes, fully compatible with Shimano groupsets.
@@cjmpaja just like how Cannondale was making a universal bottom bracket. Bb30nor was it pf30 oh and asemetric variants of both. SRAM can make a universal hanger...but if no manufacturers accept it SRAM will be be forever updating their hanger to be "universal"
Another good honest vid, cheers! Yep, it has. Put a complex to maintain system on the lower price bikes kind of goes against why you'd buy a lower end price. More maintenance cost at the local bike shop, more down time when it needs sorted. I'll stick with my easily understandable and easily maintained Fully External Cable system!
Love fully internal cables, but that said I do use hydraulic brakes and though I still have cable shifting, I have not found that the bends have hampered gear changes at all. I built my bike myself and find maintenance relaxing though. I love the feeling of getting everything completely neat and totally cable-managed. I don't care about any supposed performance gains, but I do just love the look, the ease of washing the bike, and the convenience when mounting on a car or carrying up stairs to my office.
Rim brakes mechanical dura ace on my tcr, cables hanging everywhere complete perfection 👌🏻. Keep those 3 watts under extreme circumstances an I’ll keep my 6.2 kg tcr
Well done BR. Integration makes for a bike fitting disaster. We used to be able to throw on a cheap stem from CRC or Wiggle to fine tune position…no longer with these setups.
I agree 100%. I got a Chinese bike that had internally routed cables. For they initial assembly, I did the internal cables and everything was good... Once I had to swap out the housings or cables, I couldn't bear the thought to spend HOURS AND HOURS to do all that b.s. again...
It's possible that there are performance to gain from fully internal routing of the cables. I would say that I prefer them just because it looks so damn good. Choices in life are made not only with logic but also with emotions.
Internal routing is definitely a bad idea. Not just the added complication and maintenance hassle, but also the difficulty in getting fit right. Fit has to be the most important criteria for everyone.
I completely agree. As someone on the edge of fit for traditional sizes, the lack of adjustment that comes with integrated cockpits kills the idea for me
I repair my bikes myself and don't want the hassle of dealing with fully integrated cables. I agree with everything you said and also the all in one handlebars that have the stem built in (whatever they are called ) are ridiculous as you can't tweak your bike fit. This is also a problem if you want to sell your bike as you would have to sell it to someone with the exact same body dimensions as you. This is just creating more waste as people can't resell their old bikes easily. The bike industry is getting worse with their proprietary parts when they should be doing the opposite . So it's a no from me.
The negative aero effect of a couple of cable housings is next to nothing when compared to the human mass on the bike. Riders clothing and helmet alone are a bigger impact on the overall system of rider+bike.
Totally agree, fully internal routing harms mechanical shifting and adds a lot of head ace on service. Therefore I ordered Giant TCR which I can service myself
For me it's just personal. I just want my bike to look as clean and simple as possible. I don't mind the harsh maintenance since I do it on my own and only do it once a month. I do enjoy fiddling with my bike, a lot.
It's nice to look at for sure, but when things need fixing, then you're in for a challenge, changing dropbar, brifter, things that you can do easily by yourself on external wired system..
As a racer who’s built like a rugby player rather than a waif-like climber, and who has broken LOTS of frames and cockpit components,the thought of ANY extra holes in my frame and especially handlebars (!!!) makes me cringe. Not to mention the extra hassle of servicing internal cables and the ridiculous costs these add to a new frame, just so some weekend punter can shave 5” off his best time around the block…all this makes internal routing a big NO to me!
Internal cable routing has indeed gone way too far. I do not own internal cable routed bikes. A bike that needs to be reliable, easy to service such as a commuter bike or a touring bike etc should definitely not be complicated by unnecessary hidden cables. Modern Internal cabling is the application of over engineering inflicted on the bicycle, a thing of relative simplicity.
Seemingly, everyone wants internal routing. I occasionally go on bike forums and often see where someone has bought an entry level to mid-level bike with mechanical shifting which didn't come from the factory without fully internal routing. Lots of people go to the trouble to change it over to fully internal. I would think that it would sacrifice shifting quality. They want the cleaner look and I guess too they want it to look higher end than it really is. I really think that manufacturers are actually responding to demands on this one.
I think this episode really missed the mark on a largest downside internal routining: stress concentrations from HOLES in components undergoing bending stress, as well as wear/material extrusion from housing/component contact.
Agreed. It's one of the reasons I decided to build a giant TCR. Some internal routing to keep it tidy but still easy to build and maintain. Good on Giant for making the decision on that design.
I am with you. That was not always the case. I really don’t care about the watts. I love the esthetics of it most. But as someone who likes to travel with the bike, and in doing so I have to disassemble the cockpit to do so, added to the many recalls happening due to internal routing of cables, I have let this phantasy go. I have thus, embraced simplicity over the beauty of clean lines… :)
Great point. For our British weather, do you think having hidden cables weigh more than having exposed wires ? I think I will stick with my non internal wired Ribble bike.
Giant is a very conservative company …. For them to decide that the new 2021 TCR (a big deal for them) was not going to have internal routing was a shock to many …. But if you LIVE with a bike you really don’t want the whole internal hassle ….. Home mechanics nightmare.
But in reality, most only care about looks. Most don't care about maintenance convenience because they never have to deal with it. As long as the shift and brake lines are routed under the stem instead of inside it, I'm OK and I've worked with full internal routing before.
I think people who think ICR is a good idea should have to build bikes equipped with it so they understand what their mechanics go through. I also think equipping a Tourney group bike with ICR is absurd. It's both cheaper than any bike I want to deal with regularly, and more complex than any bike I want to be replacing parts on regularly.
I agree with what you are saying .if you are racing on a pretty good amateur level or you are doing ITTs, that small savings helps. If you are not ,and you are just out there having fun. WHY?. Not to mention it used to take me about 5 mins to replace someone’s cable for 15-20$, now it takes me over an hour for a lot more money, and having to explain to the owner why I’m charging them so much more. Total pain in the ass.
Performance is not everything. The aesthetic of the bike really improves with internal cable routing. Besides, cable noise is also eliminated with this technology. I hate cables hit each other on a rough road and create noise.
This has hit the nail on the head for me. I need to replace the headset bearings on my Lapierre eSensium but the cabling is internally routed through the top of the headset. I understand that to remove the top bearings the brake and gear cables need to be removed and the front brake bled after reassembly. Way beyond my capabilities so what is often described as a straightforward job now entails a visit to my LBS.
One of the biggest drawbacks I can see of fully internal cable routing is the lack of opportunity for the Average Joe home mechanic to access entry-level servicing of their own bike! For many riders, being able to do some simple maintenance on their beloved machine is a part of the rewarding experience of cycling. 3 watts seems a trivial amount of gain at the cost of that simple pleasure.
That is one of the benefits of internal cable routing. Drives more service work to shops and increases prices of servicing. Buyers are not fully aware of how much more time servicing internally routed stuff actually takes if the implementation has been done poorly and there is some difficult internal frame features to navigate. It's easily triple or even more work when comparing to old school externally routed bikes.
i appreciate this video for being ao honest and very informative of what significance hidden cables can do and the reasons why and why it is not needed for the one who is not an extreme rider like me too
The internal cables often require a proprietary integrated stem and handlebar, limiting the choices for customization for the rider. I'm confident none of my riding is in those "extreme conditions". I'm too slow 🐌! The external cables on my 2017 Domane are fine with me.
It’s a stupid idea. The performance gains are so small that they’re barely there at all and less than you’d get from shaving your legs. Maintenance is much more complex. The risk of undetected damage to hydraulic lines, shifting cables or wires and even headset forks makes it dangerous as well.
Have aero bikes gone too far????! When will Simon admit lightweight beats aero in every form of cycling? How much did BIG AERO pay BikeRadar for this video?
Well after eBikes came out and everyone decided it be smart and route the cables up and over the motor so you have to drop the motor to route a new cable is some car manufacturing BS! Especially as a mechanic! Customer, can you install a new shifter cable? Yes that will be $5 in parts and $100 in labor. Customer WTF why? Oh we have to uninstall your motor 👍. As a racer track side, nothing more fun then missing your race start cause your trying to run a new brake line and fighting the internal routing.
Snapped my handlebars on my Ribble SLE, and could only replace with the bespoke Level 5 integrated bars which were out of stock. Previously I'd have just swapped out for any bar sitting around the shed¡!
Internal cable routing on entry level bikes is a bad idea unless entry level cyclists are prepared to pay extra fees for service. I'm speaking from the perspective of a mechanic. Internal routing is a huge waste of time in the shop and therefore a liability for your LBS. The person in charge of intake needs to set the right rate and have a serious talk with the owner of the bike who wanted the fancy, tidy cables. If you want tidy, you're gonna have to pay. Otherwise, you are hurting your mechanic and the shop. And as for home mechanics on this job, it is unlikely that most people can figure it out, considering that it involves the headset, handlebars, downtubes and often the BB as well. I've had bikes come in with internal routing through the BB that was done incorrectly. The housing had whittled/ground the crank axle away until it snapped. Always get a pro to do your internal routing. There is so much that can go wrong.
Same here. Some bikes with full internal routing are designed OK, but definitely not all of them, including the carbon Domane. Those who say they love full internal routing, chances are, they've never worked on a bike before. My take as of now: External routing: Piece of cake Conventional internal routing (ie. doesn't start from the top of the head tube): I'm OK with it Full internal routing: Depends on the bike, some are OK, others are downright 👎. Those with routing inside the stem automatically get a thumbs down.
Well said. ICR is a pain in the. It is also one of the reasons for the death of .mechanical shifting, for the reasons you gave about the tight bends. I do not race, and missing out on 1mph on a down hill is no big deal to me. I like the look of a well run, clean routed cables, shows a higher level of attention to detail. ICR is also the reason for the push of disc brakes.(bends of the cables) and wireless shifting.
Disc brakes are about way more than that. Not everyone rides only when it's sunny and warm, and rim brakes are useless in mixed conditions. There are also areas where bikes are really popular, and at the same time, rim brake wheels are considered disposable because the brakes wear the wheels out to the point of structural failure, because of weather and environment.
@@AlexandarHullRichter I agree. If I were to ride a lot in rain, or if I had Carbon wheels, I would want Disc brakes. I live in California, so I have always run Rim brake-Alloy wheels. (35 years of riding) wore out only 1 set of wheels. I would prefer if we have a choice of what to use and buy. Like you said, where you live and terrane you ride is what you need.
Difficult one. It does look great and having trickle down technology means that even club run riders can enjoy looking and feeling good on the bike. The ease of working on the bike is a difficult trade off
I feel like bikes actually haven’t added enough tech. For the $5k and up range you should be getting wireless shifting by default and bike computers should be included. Bike tech isn’t behind necessarily but manufacturers can and should do more to integrate it all.
I tell you another irritating trend. Big lettering on bars and stems. Seatpost also. Besides different diameters it's hard to mix and mach them if not from same brand.
Next thing you know they'll be fully sealed and have proprietary tools and parts to prevent the right to repair or at least make it difficult to repair like what Apple does. Let's hope not
Old Vid, but still great. I see a similar problem with Aero/D-Shaped seatposts. Nearly all of them are proprietary and most, if not all have setback. For me personally to get a proper fit, setback seatposts don't work (long legs, short torso). I have built enough bikes over my 17 years of road riding/racing to know. As a result, I now have to flat-out disqualify otherwise interesting frames in my next build because they all push proprietary aero seatposts with no zero offset options.
Less flexibility to setup bars and stems, extra hassle, extra cost and extra time to work it with no significant benefit to non competitive cyclist. Leave it fully internal cable routing on a race bike, TT or Tri-bike only.
Just did a full replacement of cables and housing on a 9 speed dura ace orbea orca with full external cables, what a dream to work on! Shifts and brakes crisply, and it was remarkably easy compared to all the new road bikes I work on *sigh*
It looks great, to be able hide the cables. Installation requires a lot of fiddling. Once setup, it’s fine. I ran my shifter cable housing all the way through, if I need to replace a cable ( once in 5+ years) I won’t need to disassemble entire bike.
Yup, I'm a shop owner and I refuse to sell internally routed bikes. Not just the pain to assemble but a pain to offer a quick bike fit and in many cases causing issues with shifting performance. Explaining to most customers that their shifting sucks due to the routing is awkward. I shouldn't have to explain that a multi million bike dollar company designed a bike that made shifting work like garbage. I would personally only do the super-clean look if I was using electronic shifting and would still prefer a bit of exposed brake lines to not have that feeling that the bars want to self-center and resist turning efforts.
Aero schmero! It's all FASHION! Running all the hoses/wires/cables through the headset is dumb, dumb, dumb! Only thing worse is continuing the "F1-ization" through the f__king handlebars, making changing bar width, stem length a royal PITA!
personally I think newer road bikes are just gravel bikes on a road frameset huge tyre clearance wide rims wide tyres low pressure disc brakes easy gears Just sounds like a gravel bike to me 😂
I'm glad Giant left regular internal routing for this model, the TCR Advanced already looks optimised as it is, both in rim and disc brake form, maybe stiffen up the disc brake frameset's fork a little.
That stuff is really cool, but it goes out the window when a guy on a 40 year old Univega 10 speed passes a whole group of riders. Makes you realize that it’s athleticism that counts the most.
I think the semi integrated route is way better, such as midrange Trek, or with the FSA/Vision SCR. Let me group the cables to optimise aerodynamics (and aesthetics, who am I fooling), but not making me disassemble EVERYTHING to work on the bike.
This guys gets the idea! It only needs to hide from the wind to be aero, not mechanics, like the early 2010s Cervélo S5's rear rim brake (seatstay-mounted instead of chainstay-mounted).
I'm still riding a 2014 frame with external cables. No issues whatsoever. Components are easy to get, I can replace cables easily, can swap out handlebar widths and stem lengths, I have no idea why people thing this stuff is cool. I am unsure how much this helps pros even. We may never know I guess.
@@bikeradar One thing I like about this channel is that you guys are big into increasing your power, and fitting to your bike, before trying to achieve marginal gains. I agree with that approach, I wish the industry would too.
It’s our fault as consumers. If buyers didn’t buy them the makers wouldn’t make them. Also, I’d argue most people like it not for watts, but simply for aesthetics (it looks better, makes the front end cleaner for light and camera fittings and prevents rub marks on the paint job)
A major down side is that the rub markings move to the inside of the frame and if not inspected yearly or protected against can either damage the housings running inside the frame or the frame itself.
In my opinion, this discussion is not dissimilar to the disk brake controversy. While there are unquestionable drawbacks, this is where the industry goes, this is what consumers want, and this is clearly where technological advancements go. Electronic groupsets keep getting more affordable, wireless shifting slowly but surely replaces wires. Maybe at this point, the technology isn't mature enough, but it is getting there, just like disk brakes a short while ago. If you look at it in terms of body integrity, an externally wired bike is more vulnerable during a crash or any type of mishandling.
I get why they're standardizing. It's easier and cheaper to mass manufacture one kind of standard feature across all bike tiers, call it a new beneficial feature, and charge more for it.
It looks better - case closed~ But really, should be the default for all hydraulics and wireless groupsets. And should not be if its mechanical brake and shifting.
And don't run the Californian Cross routing config. (left shift housing enters the down tube at the right and vice versa) Left-to-left and right-to-right is how I like to route road bikes' shift housings. For MTBs, the Californian Cross looks more suitable.
I would do without fully internal, but admit I found it nicer through the downtube when cleaning and putting on a bike carrier. Especially the welded lugs and exposed cable where you need to pad between the cable and frame when in a bike carriers clamp. So my money is now in the partially internal whereas it used to be in the exposed inner camp for easier oiling etc, but that was in the old days before the lined outers and water ingress and rust was a real issue.
I have a BMC TMR02. It's an aero from a with tripwire design throughout the frame. I place an aero tri rig brake on the front. Cables are visible behind the steer tube leading into the top tube. The cables come out from FSA Plasma handlebar to this area. Yes, I would like the clean look with no cables showing but on an all out are road bike but the cost is not worth it at this time. Plus I prefer rim brakes, in my personal opinion they're more are lighter and easier to maintain. I waited till carbon rims became stronger, lighter with improved heat dissipation I. can definitely wait for things to improve a bit more in this area of brake and internal cable routing. Good video, none the less.
Agreed, sure if you are racing otherwise just a huge pain even if its just hydro cables.Most people will be having these high end aero bike serviced at shop and those poor mechanics who have to spend hours trying to route and deal with this trend will agree for sure.
Some bikes take it too far. My limit is as follows: Two-piece cockpit Under-stem shift & brake line routing Some bikes that follow this format are the Specialized Tarmac SL7, 2nd-gen Orbea Orca Aero, 3rd-gen Specialized Venge, Trek Émonda SL & SLR, Trek Madone SL & SLR (if paired with the Émonda's spacer kit), Merida Reacto (carbon), any bike compatible with FSA SMR and more that I've yet to know about.
To be honest, most people who buy entry level road bikes today are just able to inflate the tires and lube the chain. And that's it. They usually drop their bike at the local store and have the experts deal with the problems. So... internal cable routing is good because all causes of problems are stored away in the robust frame instead of dangling out in the open.
They're not going to want to spend $500 for a tune up because of that crap, when they only bought the bike for $800. Many shops charge by the hour for internal routing.
@@AlexandarHullRichter Yes. In my experience if the price of fixing the defects correctly surpasses some EUR 150,- then people leave it as it is and ride the bike until it breaks and then buy a new one. With the supply chain problems of today however they ran into real problems because there are no bikes available as a replacement. And yes, hourly rates for mechanics render bigger repairs uneconomical. Here they are EUR 90,- per hour.
Much like 90% of the so-called "new technologies" becoming standard in the road bike world in the past few years, full cable integration comes with: - a hefty price tag (oh well, this one's quite obvious) - added weight (directly and indirectly) - more proprietary standards (and lack of compatibility between brands and with older generations) => harder to replace components individually and harder to constantly upgrade components on your bike - more complex (and time consuming) maintenance and installation (sometimes requiring special tools that cost a lot of money, rendering them less accessible to the individual cyclist who wants to service their own bikes) - technical "side effects" (in this case, mostly due to the sharp cable angles) that force you to adopt other technologies (electronic shifting, hydraulic brakes) when making the switch and, quite unsurprisingly, also justifying the existance of those other technologies - last, but not least, laughable performance gains that are simply outweighed by the extra cost and aforementioned penalties in the case of 80-90% of the road bike users out there, especially those for whom even 3000€ is way too much money to pay for a bike Honestly, the only people who really benefit (statistically speaking) from this are: - (pro) racers to whom 5W will make the difference between winning or losing a race - bike shops and mechanics, as the more complex the maintenance, the less likely it is for the average cyclist to do it 100% at home - of course, the bike industry
