Heat Pumps The Ugly Truth - The Rebuttal 

Thank you for giving my video some extra publicity, judging by the comments below, people are more intelligent than you give them credit for. Just to clarify. I (Roger Bisby) have made videos for boiler manufacturers and heat pump manufacturers. Worcester Bosch sells heat pumps, so does Vaillant. I have made videos for NuHeat, Trianco and Worcester on heat pumps. It is the hallmark of a lost argument when you try to discredit the other guy. You are selling heat pumps, I am selling nothing, nobody is paying me. If you have an argument then put it forward, this is your big chance so don't waste it with personal insults. Manufacturers say "don't put the heat pump near a bedroom window, don't put them near neighbours because the noise can be a issue." Performance of your best example is Minus 5 outiside, it produces 7kw. If I leave that running 24/7 it will heat my home but you neglect to mention that. Basically you agree with me and you have simply repeated what I said. "Heat pumps work best when it isn't cold" You also state that you might need a small boiler to top up. The whole idea of the grant is to get people away from gas. You could also mention that during that dedicated DHW top up the heating is off. Skill Builder is happy to come out and film one of your installations in an older building which does not have a high degree of insulation. It would be very interesting to see the cost and talk to the customer after it has been running in the cold weather. That is the whole point of my video and you have not addressed it here

I’m just not convinced. Since the skill builder video I’ve been looking more closely at my customers properties as I go around servicing their boilers. I’d say as a guess there’s no way you’d get one of these to work properly in probably 80% of them. I don’t want to be rude as I don’t know you but you’ve clearly got a vested interest in these. So you are going to sing their praises aren’t you. You claim that Rogers video is very biased. But yours was no better. You never mentioned the ridiculous cost compared to a boiler change. Never mentioned the upheaval of up sizing all the rads. Glossed over the sticky situation of 17 million combi boilers like it’s nothing. Good luck finding a space for that cylinder in flats. Your figures for kw use were an average. In all these pro heat pump videos like yours and heat geeks you don’t seem to realise it’s fecking freezing in the north of this country. Can you imagine the running costs up north when it’s -6 to -10 for nights on end. That’s if you even get any heat from the unit in the first place. You’ve made a video complaining that someone else’s video picked and choosed the facts they wanted to promote and then you did the same thing. I think those of us with a decent couple of decades in this industry know these won’t ever be the answer. They will be an answer for some people. But not most. Not by a long way. New house no good cos of microbore. Old house no good cos of solid walls. Big house no good cos not big enough output. Flat no good for obvious reasons. Maybe we should call Heat Pumps the Goldilocks Heater cos everything’s gotta be just right.

Seems strange all the people who defend heat pumps either sell them or have company’s installing them.

"Real facts from the manufacturers themselves" ehh, what can possibly go wrong? Would these facts be like the emissions facts from the car manufacturers by any chance?

Hi At 1.00 you said ( on the coldest days of the year a small boiler can be added to the system ) so a heat pump is NOT for me.

Rodger based his opinion on people who have had them installed. Also this guy who sells heat pumps is trying to say Rodger is prejudice because he worked for bosch.

I had my (Samsung) air source heat pump removed. *It was so unreliable that it spent more time broken down than working, and we were frequently without heat or hot water for days till the installers returned. *When it worked it would take an hour before the radiators got warm (never hot, just warm) and in the cold weather we needed the gas fire on as well. *When it started up it was like a jet engine and it would wake us up and could be heard over the TV. Neighbours complained about the noise. *The water wasn't really hot enough to do dishes or have a bath in, even running just the hot tap with no cold water, which meant it took much longer to run a bath. *When the temperature hit freezing it didn't work at all. *There was constant dripping of water due to condensation which in winter would freeze causing a slip hazard. *Despite being told it would be cheaper to use than the gas central heating it was far more expensive. *The rules for claiming money back under the green initiative required more loft insulation than I could have due to the loft having a floor, every light bulb had to be low voltage which would require fittings to be replaced in some rooms. Our older double glazing was not to the required standard either. * Initially it was installed on the floor at the side of the house meaning the access was limited and making it difficult for bully items (like the new washing machine) to be brought to our back door. Due to the inefficiency the installation company then decided it needed to be lifted 1 foot off the ground, so moved it. It was still inefficient, and the company had now gone out of business. A 2nd company decided it needed to be higher up, so moved it up under the spare room window. It was still inefficient and the noise would have made sleep in that room impossible. It was also an eyesore and people would stare and point at it as the walked past and we frequently got asked what it was. This 2nd company also went out of business and when it broke down again, we had to pay another company to get it working. Since it regularly failed, it became an expensive process, high is why we decided to cut our losses and have it removed. We were told that heat pumps are UNSUITABLE to be retrofitted to existing central heating systems and are only suitable for new build homes. And this was from a specialist GREEN ENERGY COMPANY! Including the cost of a gas boiler to replace the one removed when the air pump was installed the total cost hit over £10,000.

Hi Dore Thank you for your work clarifying things. I'm a newbie here, just starting to learn about heat pumps... I'd have thought that efficiency of, say 350pct would work like this: Consumption 1000w/h Output heat equivalent to ~3500w/h Is that correct? If output at 5celsius is 12kwh but the consumption is 6kwh, then I understand the efficiency would be 200pct Are there any flaws in my thinking? How much power does it draw when output is 12kwh? (New models) Many thanks

I have a oil boiler with a pressurised cilinder in the house for a 4 bed detached house built in the 1980s , fibreglass cavity insulation , double glazed and we just redone the full loft insulation about 300mm , would my house be suitable for ashp?

I Bought an 18-SEER heating and cooling heat pump. The cooling during the summer was phenomenal. But during the winter it failed to heat my highly insulated house, I complained to the company that installed it and they said all heat pumps cannot provide adequate heating when it gets really cold. Nothing they could do about it. Tough luck it's not their problem. So really? Heat pumps are great! Nonsense!

The issue you have in defending ASHP as Skill builder states there will always be the unscrupulous sales person who sells the “dream” that won’t work.

I have discovered that UK Heat Pump systems are Rube Goldberg affairs that don't really work very well and don't have much in the way of an operational cost advantage. Also there is no cooling in the summer.

My heat pump has never work for longer than a month without failing. It's been a bloody disaster.

Worcester Bosch have been selling heat pumps for years through IVT and GSHP's. Also they now sell ASHP's. From 2010 to 2016, I was MCS registered and fitted about 20 Panasonic, Lailey and Coates and Grant heat pumps, many on new builds and several retrofits where we often used the high temp 65 degree units. I never got any complaints as they were well designed, some were all UFH, some, UFH/Rads and some all rads. I also fitted a GSHP on bore holes. All worked fine. The pre- installation design work is the key. Fitting low loss headers / buffer tanks was also essential to avoid problems. I only ever fitted one heat pump to microbore, it was actually fixing an install someone else did. it was on 10mm copper, which eventually worked fine as the radiators didn't need to put out too much power. So, yes, they work well, BUT the design has to be right, so employing an MCS registered installer is a great start when embarking on a heat pump install.

With respect, I watched the original video referenced here and I don’t agree with how it’s being portrayed. As far as I can recall, the main point made was ‘be careful before you jump in and buy’. The points raised were that a considerable amount of UK housing stock are not well insulated and installing a heat pump might not be the most efficient way to heat those homes. The guy in the video also said he has installed heat pumps and was simply pointing out some of the pitfalls he’s com,e across. He was talking in general terms and wasn’t trying to present a technical analysis of individual manufacturer solutions. I think that questioning the integrity of the guy in this way is in and of itself questionable. From what I can tell, the core points made in the original video are valid: they are not cheap to run; the initial outlay is high even with grants, you’ll possibly need a water heating supplement in some environments, and if your house isn’t well insulated your cost benefit will be greatly reduced. So unless you think these points are wrong I’d argue you’re not addressing the core points. Indeed you kick off your own video with caveats and quid pro quos.

Thanks for video. Can you tell me more about how ASHPs work with microbore. We're looking to get one installed, and we have microbore in one half of the house, the one done to modern building regs (it was renovated in two halves). The companies we got in to quote weren't overly concerned about microbore. Obviously you can't give us any specifics, but any good questions for us to ask to try and tease out any probs before we spend the money? Thx

More like a sales.pitch than a careful rebuttal. Taking individual examples is not Data. The problem with microbore which he raised is significant. Also seemed to imply this is a stopgap till we get hydrogen. Heat pumps far to expensive both in cash and resources for a stopgap. Also as always no mention of the environmental impact and cost of the change.

That ugly box and huge tank compared to a tiny gas boiler you've got to be joking and that fan will get noisy they always do. Sorry I trust Roger Bisby, he has been around in the building industry for many years, he keeps up to date with the new technology, if he says it's not a good system I trust him every time.

How do you overcome microbore? Situation: looking at a ASHP, 16KW samsung system recommended by supplier, heating requirements per room assuming upgrades of around 11 rads, 7 ok. all microbore fed. comments/suggestions appreciated. thanks

I spent the whole of my working life taking out storage heater and heat pumps and putting in gas centreal heating and out of all those house I changed NOT one changed back nor did I ever hear anyone say anything but how huch better gas centrail heating was?

Thank you for your video, which gives the alternative view. I am wondering if you can answer my question. I have solar panels and have a FITs contract. As you explained, you would have to run an ASHP for longer. Would my solar energy offset the running costs, or would it run an extra appliance for longer? Also, one of the reasons I went to a comb boiler was that the hot water pressure in my house was dreadful. It took almost an hour to run the bath. By installing a Water Tank again, is there a way to avoid this problem of low hot water pressure again? Because that would be a negative for many people. I’m after all the facts to make my decision, and if you could help, that would be great.

Simple to prove both the efficiency, running costs etc - get two identical semi’s, you now have 4 units - insulate both pairs identically, install two Combi systems and two ASHP systems - you now have a base line - you know what you have spent on insulation and installation of heating - now run them for one year, both set identically - now you have a base line for running costs - no lying, no fudging. Now you can honestly state that the Combi running costs are X per year plus installation/15 (15 year life span), ASHP ditto - if the Combi or ASHP runs out cheaper then these are facts that no manufacturer can argue with. Let us not forget the biggest problem with ALL installations is the technical ability of the installer, coupled with flash sales staff who may be more concerned about their possible sales bonus rather than the ability of the product to do the job.

Retro fitted to my housing association house. Main problem is noise with small house, small garden. I turn it off during the night and in the morning often use a fan heater as the system is slow to warm up and that defeats the object of the system.

I have a brand new ASHP Mitsubishi MSZ-FT35VGK 3.5kW in my 1982 built 109 square meter terraced house and it is effective at heating. Cheap to run, 25kwh per day at 0.1Eur per kWh at -15 celsius outdoor and +24c indoor. It is my only heat source currently, with backup electric radiators which I've never had to use. I'm very happy with it, it is very quiet both the inside and outside unit. If I ever build a new house it will have a Mitsubishi Ecodan or similar system.

I had a quote for £18000 with a £5k grant, Electricity was 3 X more expensive than Gas per KWh. These units depend on electric fans to work and I was told that I could expect to get 4 x the heating power for every KWh running the fan, however that is not true in winter where it is more like 2X. I decided I would buy a bigger gas boiler for £3000, cheaper to run than a pumps and much hotter water

I'm interested in a mini split heat pump for a single room, but for replacing your boiler, I'm not sure heat pumps are really ready for a normal house. Firstly, where does the cylinder go if you've got a combi and no existing cylinder? Not everyone has room for a cylinder which is why combis became so popular. Also, even with 5k from the government, its still going to cost about 15k in total to get a whole house heat pump installed. A standard gas boiler costs about 3k for a replacement. With gas boilers being banned from 2025 onwards, I'm probably going to replace ours in 2024 with a new gas boiler. That way we can wait it out and see which technology replaces gas during the lifetime of the new boiler. Could be heat pumps if efficiency increases and price decreases or it could be hydrogen

I ripped out my gas boiler and fitted a 'ground source heat pump' (cost a small fortune) but all it does is take the chill off the air. So I had to install two ceramic wood burning stoves to bring the temperature of the house back to where it was with a gas boiler.

I'm not opposed to the idea of heat pumps and I think they could work well in new builds that have been designed for them. However, I live in a 1920s semi that does not have cavity walls, has open fire places and downstairs floor boards. I have double glazing and loft insulation but I just don't see a heat pump keeping my house warm.

During the defrost cycle the ice on the evaporator melts and the water goes somewhere. I guess the frequency of these defrost cycles depends on the dewpoint? Is there a condense trap, or does the melt-water drip onto the surrounding surface, possibly causing a slipping hazard and eventually rust? Also what is the refrigerant used in these machines? Another query: the ground based systems have pipes under the ground. I understand that antifreeze is required in the fluid pumped through these pipes and wonder if this is an environmental hazard should it leak, or when the system is eventually decommissioned?

How will this hybrid heat pump/boiler combination work when gas boilers are banned in 2035? Still not viable in the UK for retro fit but probably ok for properly built new build. The fan in your video is quiet because it’s new.

R290 and R744 are the future of heat pumps. There is no reason that the price for these systems built at scale should not be much lower. If you can hook up one plumbing loop and one electrical connection anyone can install a monoblock heat pump. Ecodan has made something simple complex for no reason. You don't need internet to set a thermostat. Hydrogen is a dead end. The energy required to make it is better used making heat directly with a heat pump.

Did anyone noticethe date on the controller, it was the middle of summer when you don't need the home heated and the system can divert all it's energy to heating the hot water tank. Did I hear him mention an immersion heater for the legionella sequence at 12.08. He also makes the point that happens during the night when your electricity is set up.

55c but how much water? What is the size of the insulated cylinder reservoir for those 55C and did those apply to all of the cylinder?

I sat and worked some figures out, each radiator in my home is roughly 1.7 kw so if I have to double them each one would be 3.4 kw, so 13 radiators x3.4 is 44kw output needed to maintain my heat. They claim that it’s 3kw output for 1kw going in so rounding up needs 15kw per hour to run so that’s two systems to generate this , cost over 25k install , and this is a quote I had but the missing part, they have to run 24/7 to run so 15kw per hour at .20 per unit of electricity so that’s £3 per hour x24 hours running £72 per day, £504 per weeks 2k per month so five months average heating 10k , so how do I save here compared to my current gas of £500 for the same period and £300 for electricity?

What size was the Ecodan hot water cylinder you were showing how long it took to heat up to 55c from cold?

I applaud you wanting to put the other side of the argument. However, we all know that there will be a land grab for the grants available, and there will be loads of cases of salespeople promising the earth, and then installers who don't have the experience to be able to do the design work on the system to make sure it works. We saw the same thing when solar thermal installations were sold into combi boiler houses fifteen years ago. None of those people ever saw any kind of saving and most of them had their bills go up. I'm not saying the technology is bad (although I shudder to think how reliable anything as complex as this will be in real life), I'm saying that sales people will over-promise and all the inexperienced new heat pump installers who have "been on a course" will installed something that won't deliver on those promises.

I am unable to reconcile replacing my 35kw system gas boiler with a, say, 10kw heat pump. I have heard of one household paying £20,000 on insulation, including external wall insulation. Is that what is needed to bridge the gap?

I live in a 100 year old house with new windows and insulated walls, I installed a mini split on the first floor because I couldn't install the old 14k window unit by myself any more. IOt cools the fiorst floor fine in the hot weather and heats the first floor when it's 30F or above and no high winds. I use the gas bopiler on cold days and am happy with that arrangement. ' I would not depend on it for my only source of heat in this climate but it's great on days when it's not really cold out. Another problem is they are very expensive to get serviced in the Boston area.

Hi. I’m having a Ecodan 11.2kw installation with Megaflow 250L HW cylinder commencing Monday 11th October. Full retrofit install. i.e we have no CH of any kind so rads and pipework from scratch up and down stairs. Looking forward to a trouble free install. The installer wants to use a Neostat to control the system. From what I’ve read elsewhere I prefer the Mitsubishi PAR-WT50R-E over the Neostat. Comments?

That said (in previous comment)…I DO believe the new systems CAN save very nicely. They REALLY are very quiet. This guy knows his stuff. BUT, we really need to vastly improve insulation, using far better materials, because that, alone, is the biggest savings. The heatpump minisplits can still save on heating & cooling, even once the house is better insulated. THE CAVEATs: those selling them must stop lying to get their foot in the door; the crappy systems need either brought up to speed, or drummed-out of the market. And, sellers need to really promote the most efficient ones, only. Promoting the lesser ones, does everyone a huge disservice..those are pointless to even exist. Sellers must understand what they are selling, for real, or they cannot hope to help buyers understand. Any incentives, should be straightforward, instead of blocked by legal trickery. And, utility companies must stop using rate trickery, similar to how tax offices use “mil-rates”.

The sound levels will increase with age . I’ve had my heat pump for over ten years and it’s noisy .

As someone has pointed out new builds should be great, also as has been said at question and answer sessions on the media " older buildings may not be suitable ". As most of the buildings are not new......I asked about radiators and was ignored, someone else asked and was told maybe. I asked a plumber and he said yes , or they won't work anywhere near the efficiency forecast,and you might be frightened at the cost. I looked up on the internet £500 to over £1000????? Are they made of precious metal ?. I was quoted over £16000 for a moderate sized bungalow. A friends inlaws live in Norway and they have heat pumps which work well. BUT they always have had big cavity insulation double or triple glazing and virtually all homes have an "Airlock" type of arrangement for outer doors. I am told that although their winters are very cold they are dry, whereas ours are cold and wet and frosting can be a problem, which can cause a loss in efficiency. Like many things the reality will probably be very different to the promise. I remember how nuclear power was the future, better things are electric, storage radiators ,electricity so cheap bills merely to maintain the grid......In 20 years time will there be an inquiry into the miss selling scandal of heat pumps, ...ppi, pensions, solar panels, mortgages, loans...spring to mind.

Thanks mate for the info, we just had an 11.2 EcoDan installed last week in our 1930s solid wall house (wall not insulated) Rads upstairs and loft, underfloor heating on the ground floor (suspended timber floor insulated) They managed to fit a 250L cylinder underneath the staircase. All the rads upstairs are double converters however it’s too hot lol. I think we could’ve got away with a Plus Rad. The system is super quiet, my installer has changed some of the settings to the most efficient mode due to the house being too hot. Not sure what settings that is??

How does the heat pump produce output fluid at 45deg C Please explain.

Would love to see you both sit down and have a debate about the subject so you can go back and forth and put the full arguments both for and against them, personally I'm not seeing the full benefits unless you're in a new build and the house was built for the heat pumps from everything that I'm seeing and hearing about them

Nice to hear an opposing view. Thanks. I think both sides are of the opinion ASHPs have a place, but are not always going to be a direct replacement for boilers, so best to do your research rather then rush out and grab the government incentive thinking of it as 'free money'. (btw a terrawatt-hour is not TW per hour as you said, it is TW x h. i.e an absolute amount of energy. Remembering a watt is an energy consumption rate (joule/second), so when multiplied by time it becomes an absolute (finite) amount of energy (joules), rather than a rate of energy consumption).

Heat pumps yes, but manic governmental push to compulsion no. Have they never heard about all your eggs in one basket? As Roger said in his video, "a car crash", a disaster in the making. Just note that all energy is free, it's the busines of distribution that costs. There is no good reason why electricity is more expensive than gas and surley green hydrogen / ammonia production will soon become a cost effecive option.

The government here in Belgium wants everyone to install heat pumps but we have a small home, no garden and no space on the flat bit of roof. In the style of the time it was build with connecting walls to the other homes on either side of us. Currently we have a 20 year old tankless gas boiler (only heats water as needed for washing & heating) at the time we installed it we were told that this was what we should do for energy efficiency (government discouraged using electric). Now they saying this is no longer acceptable. We are left in a quandary what what options are there for homes like ours that won't kill us financially and still be good for the environment.

Nice video, I work for a company that installs heat pumps, this video is partly correct but very biased. I have met several customers who wish to have the outdoor unit moved because of the noise. With regards to SCOP, academic articles stae a SCOP of 3.5, but this assumes the unit is installed properly and serviced. With the cost of electricity being over 3 times that of gas, the SCOP is improtant when consider installin an ASHP, they work out to have a similar running cost. However, if they are not serviced or installed properly, which we often find, then theyw cost a lot more to run than a condensing boiler at 90% efficiency. Propane aparently contributes to global warming more than CO2. This video also does not point out that in many homes the heat emitters (radiators) may need upgrading, or additional ones added to emit the same amount of heat into a home (as they were designed for a higher flow rate. With regards to hot water, most HPs produce water at 55C maximum. To get a higher temperature (and for preventing legionella) a heating element (max COP of 1) is used to heat the water to above 60C, this can be very expensive. A well insulated, draft free home is great, but 80% of houses that are built now will be here in 2050. Insulating these can cause other issue with mould and poor ventilation. This causes other issues, so a mechnical ventilation and heat recovery system will also need to be installed. It is likely that the gas infrastructure will be converted for the hydrogen but yes, hydrogen is likely to be expensive unless we can (for example), use excess renewable energy (eg wind) to produce hydrogen when there isn't a demand for energy. It is best to have an impartial view of HPs if you are truly wishing to provide customer satisfaction and meet their expectations. Also I thought boiler manufacturers like Valiant are moving to heat pumps because of legislation. Impartial advice is best to allow customers to make an informed choice and meet their expectations.

If you're not on the mains gas grid then you have little option. We had (NIBE) installed about 4 years ago to replace LPG bottles shortly after moving in. Access to our property means we can't install a LPG or oil tank. Its a different style of heating, more background really. We also use a wood stove when its really cold. Our house is a 1965 ex-council house and solidly built. We upgraded the loft insulation and replaced the aging double glazing units. We don't run it all day mainly because it would come on when the outside temp was really low so not very efficient. It suits us this way and we get loads of hot water. My gripe is the lack of information, particulary on messages, curves and flow temps - I've no idea how what they mean or where I could learn about them and tweak the system to be more efficient.

He never said that he hated heat pumps. It's also hypocritical saying that he hates them because he installed gas boilers when you're installing heat pumps. What you said at the start: "they work for some properties and don't for others" is basically what Rodger said.

A gas boiler generates integral heat by igniting gas. A heat pump is just a big fan whirling around in a box. How can it be any good?

Heat pumps have been used in the southern half of the US for at least 40 years . They are not any louder than a central air conditioning unit . Mine is right outside my bedroom window . Our winters here in southern Georgia are not brutally cold and it has auxiliary and emergency heat that can engage if temps go below 25 Fahrenheit so you don’t need anything else for heating your home . I don’t have any experience with water heated with a heat pump . Mine is straight electric. It’s like any other technology, it doesn’t work for everyone. In the northern US and older I insulated homes there wouldn’t be little if any savings . Kind e like electric cars if you drive long distances daily they aren’t for you or me . I use gasoline engine cars . I have been impressed with heat pumps since 1980 and it also doubles as my air conditioning ( cooling ) for our hot summers .

We have an EcoDan 5kW ASHP and happy with it. When u explain Legionella controls, 60 degrees will not kill all of the bacteria, higher pasteurisation temp is required to be absolutely sure. But their presence is also dependent on nutrients; an old calorifier in hard water area will be more at risk. Must follow best practice to minimise risk please.

Don't talk rubbish. Your only in it for taking advantage of the windfall of money. Much respect to Roger for informing us

I'm a licensed refrigeration and air conditioning contractor. My opinion, you must be joking. The heat pump is nothing more than your typical A/C with a reversing valve. Take a 2000 square foot house with a 5-ton demand for cooling. This A/C uses a 220v probably a 50-60 amp circuit not seasonally for A/C, but now year round for heating as well. Don't forget to throw in a circulation blower to distribute the conditioned air. Water source or air source, the conditioned air needs to be circulated year round. Talk about voodo economics, expect no decrease from the grid. Contrary, expect the use of the heat pump to be drawing from the grid year round. Community utility companies asks for a reduction of the A/C use during peak demand in the summer or face a rolling blackout. With the exponential expected increase in heat pump use, expect the same requests from the utility companies during winter use. Effective use of a heat pump at 5-10 degrees below zero is marginal. Supplemental heating would be required to keep pipes from freezing. Redundancy would have to be installed to prevent a major catastrophe. Then ask a tech how to properly fix a refrigerant leak in the winter time. They won't tell you because they don't know how. Don't be fooled, there's no free lunch.

Skill Builder dude is a cool dude.

What do you think about the latest Samsung G6 (R32 refrigerant) heat pumps and how do they measure up to Vaillant, Mitsubishi and Stiebel Eltron? Screwfix are selling Samsungs - a 12kW heat pump and 300 litre cylinder is under £7,800. Also, do you help your clients with the RHI grant and are there any pitfalls regarding eligibility other than using an MCS-registered installer?

I am not convinced if I need to expect a cool bedroom. Hearing it will be OK was not convincing, even if it is true. It would help to know some basic facts like, how much did it cost to install, what is the cost of additional electricity during the winter and what is the average room temperature and water temperature in the winter? I am open to persuasion, but doubtful at the moment.

Helped me a tad. Thanks. Council surveyor is coming this week to discuss heat pump + solar installation (free of charge). No mention of any cavity wall or loft insulation though and the 30 year old windows allow more wind than my Mrs. It has to be a box ticking exercise about climate? They want to start installation in a week or two. They must be idiots? Installation without insulation? Clowns.

I'm a firm believer in adopting new tech when it has benefits and makes the older tech obsolete! Are natural gas boilers really obsolete? BUT I'm not sure air or ground source heat pumps provide that, in the vast majority of UK housing stock, which let's face it is older, draughty, thermally inefficient properties! OK it might work in new builds with good thermal efficiency etc We've got to be realostic about this, in the UK most of us want a nice warm house in the winter, I rarely have my heating on from early spring to late autumn. I live in a fairly typical UK house 3 bed semi 1950s built, it has full double glazing, cavity wall insulation and 3 layers of loft insulation. It's heated by a Worcester bosch combi boiler (installed 2 years ago) which also provides our hot water on demand. It keeps our house very cosy and once it's up to temp it barely kicks in to top it up, so it runs very efficiently and during winter costs around £7 per week, that's including all our hot water! I doubt very much an efficient air or ground source heat pump could even match that nevermind improve on it? Even not including the huge installation costs! You have to remember gas boilers are at their peak of design efficiency, heat pumps are in their early developement years, they're not quite there yet! Sales are being driven by financial incentices/grants etc with the tag line, 'kinder to the planet' but are they really kinder if they're using so much more electric and costing more to run?

all wel but here in Belgium the cost of electricitie is 3 times higher (at oprox. 0,48 euro cent ) then gaz (0,16 euro cent/kwh ) . So where is the benifit of placing a heat pump versus the gas instalation . all wel for nature but i'm not roqefellar .en the cost here for aheat pump cost about 14000 euro's . tell me the logic about that ??????

What's the point of backing it up with a boiler to achieve net Zero? The reason it needs a boiler to back it up is because, on its own, it can't cope. £10,000 at least for a system that can't compete with a tried and tested system 1/2 the price? Somebody onto a good screw there, and unfortunately it will be the small one man bands that can't offer finance to the homeowner who will go out of business. Not saying it doesn't work at all, but gas fired heating system do a far better job, with less equipment, hydrogen would do exactly the same. The GOV needs to invest in hydrogen and nuclear energy to keep things closer to net zero and to keep cost down for the homeowner.

Appreciate what you are trying to do, however, this video did not come across well for me. There is literally no information about the costs of running a ASHP, no comparisons, no instalation costs and pay back calculations at all. All I can think is that right now (in 2022) the cost of electricity if 4X more expansive than gas and that's what it comes down to for me are they cost effective? In 2022 They are costing more to run (I believe) and up to 10X more to install :(

Hi Dore. Thanks for the info and I'm fully behind the heat pump technology - especially if married to solar PV technology. Big question, I have a large hall (300 M2) and want to heat it with a heat pump. I have sourced a 'devi mat' technology (using hot water and not electricity) however is this the microbore which you were referring to?

Interested in heat pumps but trying to imagine a row of flats with all these units at the back and the space the customer will lose,,,,Also i tend to find most newbuilds have heating circuits piped in 10mm hep20 would this be a factor

Here in USA the same has been true for fossil fuel or electric heating for decades. The industry compensated for the issues by overbuilding the heating system which resulted in lots of other issues. We Americans avoided insulation, high quality windows and doors. Many houses even the newest are leaky. Unfortunately it's inbred in much of the business and will take time to overcome. Our own house 2,500 SF near lake Erie came with 2 gas forced air furnaces. Over last decade we've improved house envelope anytime we were remodeling, repairing, upgrading appliances. Today we rarely use both furnaces and hope to put in heat pump HVAC. Thanks for the info!!!

Good presentation…but still not sure. I would like to hear one running to asses the sound myself, it is very subjective. The cost is the big issue, much though I would love to be more green. Say the unit only lasts ten years, replacement of £5k, so £500 a year…that a fair chunk of electric. A thought. If I only use a shower…much though I like a bath now and again, an electric shower is very efficient as you are not losing any heat warming up the pipes. Likewise an instant hot water at the sink, or a small local cylinder. Think how long it takes for the water to get hot, all wasted energy. So what if I just use the heat pump for heating only? Can I then do away with the cylinder and save a lot of the complexity? Perhaps halving the cost. So is it better just to super insulate and fit MHRV?

If it's that good would not need government grant, all new builds would have this as well as solar. This industry still relies on the petro-chemical industry for plastics, oils etc. How good is it at -25 as we sometimes see in Scotland

Have you ever measures the actual SCOP of a heat pump? And if you have is it close to producer's data?

I used to be excited about tankless hot water heaters until I found out you have to service them every 6 months.

Really good summary. I watched the Skill Builder video too and it was full of holes in his research.

I did some research into fitting a hybrid system, but the home is not insulated well enough to warrant the upgrade. Shame really as they are a really good idea.

So are you saying 9kw of heating is going to keep a house warm when it’s -5’c outside - surely the heat loss would be almost the same? Also by your own figures, the efficiency is about ~3.3 at 0’c. Electricity is four times the price of gas. So yes it’s 300% efficient, but still more costly than gas even allowing for inefficiency of a boiler?

I'm upgrading the heating in my flat.. it's very old and not insulated well. I suppose that a conventional combi boiler will serve me better in the short run.

If you are retrofitting why not rip your old radiators out and just put in a Mitsubishi Fujitsu or Daikin low wall or high wall units. These units are smaller then most radiators and only require 2 small insulated copper refrigerant lines and power feed These units heat a large space very quickly so do not require you to leave your house heated 24/7 wasting way to much energy in most homes. Just turn it back on when you get home and your room will be warm in minutes, You can also use an app to turn it on before you get home with wi-fi models. Also no need for any service plant or boiler room just an outdoor unit and indoor unit. Also these cost a fraction compared to the under floor or radiator systems, and usually installed in 3 hours. For a bit more you can also get a ducted system if you have attic or under floor space. And these units also act as air conditioning in summer.

I remember warm a wall insulating my wall cavities 15 years ago only to find this year foam installation completely disintegrating into a pile of dust another expensive short lived fad comes to mind from a young salesmen

They are more expensive to run than my old boiler fact I have two heat pumps in my house. And when it gets cold under 5 c they work very badly.

The biggest stumbling block to heat pumps is the cost. I have a 40 year old self build house, with good insulation but not good enough for a heat pump. As I understand it the cost of doing the necessary work is in the region of £20,000. This is money as a pensioner I do not have, even allowing for government grants. Much of the UK housing stock is old and is difficult to improve the insulation to a suitable standard. This video talks about circulation temperatures of 55deg, my understanding is it is more likely to be more like 40 to 45 degrees. My friends son has ground source heat pump in a barn conversion costing £35000. He has underfloor heating which is okay but his hot water has to be boosted with an immersion heater. I am not saying heat pumps don't work but a one size fits all approach will not work in the UK.

I've recently had a heat pump installed for an indoor swimming pool (a Norsup unit) replacing a 12kw electric heater, this use case is ideal but not a chance in hell I'll install one for home heating. what is the ROI on a £14k+ heatpump install over a straight gas boiler swap even though they are artificially increasing the gas unit price through additional levies

DO they have an internal immersion-type heater as back up, as claimed by Skill Builder??

It is all very well saying it will heat the house but there is the issue of heating for a family, do we take a step backwards e.g. one person has a bath and all the hot water has been used, not the case with a combi boiler.

Can you please point me to manufacturer’s warranty that supports a 400% efficiency throughout the winter months. Because that is significantly more than when I was last checking HP viability. The Uk has the worst, for efficiency, housing stock in the EU, so it looks like heat pumps are suitable limited to a small percentage of housing. I believe there is a massive UK effort required to substantially improve the Uk thermal efficiency of houses and migration to underfloor heating/ upgraded radiators that is required before heat pumps can be useful. It feels like the government subsidies is driving a cash bonanza for ‘quick cash heat pump’ companies that are not advising their clients ethically.

If there the future why haven’t the government insisted that all new buildings are required to have heat pumps You are right new build nearly always have microbore pipe work which will have a real bad effect on flow rates It seems madness that within 10yrs you will have to re pipe new builds

We bought a five year old house which as the video says wonderful, the house came with a Mitsubishi Zubadan 14KW air source pump so we inherited it you might say. It works very well but a few things to note, you mush have underfloor heating and bigger radiators upstairs and the house must be a modern well insulated home otherwise forget it won’t work. As for traditional British homes double brick walls built in the 30’s forget it won’t work you will be wearing coats all winter inside. Another important point is installing the system you must make sure the company doing it know their stuff because if the control system isn’t set up properly you will have issues. Another point is the pumps inside the house they must be the right size to pump the heated water around the house, we have two standard pumps that many homes with gas central heating will recognise, however when our system was serviced for the first time after we moved in the technician from Mitsubishi said it should have been a larger one and not two pumps. Having the two smaller pumps means you won’t get the full benefit of the larger 14 KW air source pump, you may only get 10 KW output inside the house. It’s also important to get the right size air source pump for the property I have seen videos of peoples properties have units that are not suitable because the property is to large and the air source heat pump cannot manage to heat the home up so the electric elements kick in which cost a fortune. I remember when we moved in and I saw the control room I thought OMG we need a technician from NASA to service this and not a British Gas engineer

I'm sure a brand new heat pump is very quiet, but what happens when the bearings have a year or two's wear? I live in a terrace, so even if my pump is silent I have no control over my neighbours' (some of whom are absentee landlords). I can see old fans, poor positioning and even loose attachments causing a real cacophony - one that doesn't end when everybody goes to bed. Also, the aesthetics of these big boxes on external walls are bad. I got rid of my loft tank and hot water cylinder when I upgraded to combi-boiler and it was wonderful to have the extra space. I don't want to go back.

Roger Busby appears to me to have lots of real life experiences. And I would guess he knows more than you do.

Modern house max insulation and windows, yes heat pumps can work, retrofitting older houses poor insulation and windows etc heat pumps are not a great option. Im sitting here in northern Canada in a log house, with two air source heat pumps, great for summer air conditioning and winter time supplemental heat. but primary heat is still propane furnace... heat pumps have a long way to go before we ditch the gas furnace.......

Having watched the video in question, i trust the installation guy more .. it's his living and he's gone on record saying they are not going to cut it, if they worked, he would install one.. they might be better for the planet but at what cost? An ugly box on the outside of all our homes, Luke warm water, cold homes .. I can't see anyone buying these I'm afraid unless they have a truly modern home that doesn't need much heating in the first place. As for your sound demo, he said new fans are whisper quiet.. show us one that's been outside for 12 months?

These engineers keep talking about heat power and cop; however, what is the average draw of electricity of these units. At 30p kWh and an average daily draw of 10kW (for both space heating and domestic hot water) that’s £3 per day.

In an ideal world, I would live in a medium-sized house on the edge of town, with enough space to install a ground or air source heat pump, solar panels, battery storage, wind turbines, heat walls to recover solar heat, and total passive house design, but unfortunately, I live in a world where I am skint-ish and cannot take a gamble on if I will get power incentive grants to hopefully tide me over until the new system is paid back or if the cost of renewable electricity makes using a heat pump cheaper to run a boiler with possible hydrogen use in the future (or not) may still be cheaper, with house prices spiraling (my mortgage is paid off :) ) the youth of today cannot afford a house never mind the cost of installing all of this green technology or a new home with that added to it. I live in hope of cheaper and more environmentally friendly options being available to everyone and not just high wage earners :( Truth is though, that old housing stock for the masses will not be able to be upgraded with all of this technology either because of space availability or structural reasons to support tanks in lofts or solar panels on roofs etc.

As far as been informative I have certainly learned a few things. I have learned that if you stand next to a brand-new heap pump it is very quiet. What about in ten years' time? I've also learned that in summer when you have no heating on in the house you can have all the hot water you will ever need. What about winter? I've also learned that this presenter is very capable at reading and reciting a brochure and technical spec therein. Finally, I've learned that it is very easy to expect others to show proof of their claims when they make them but I have to ask where is the PROOF of the claims this presenter is making. On his white board...is this proof. On a little look at a control box....is this proof. Sounds to me this salesman loves heat pumps, hates gas. Now having said all this I'm still going to buy one. I've heard they're good for heating koi ponds. My fish are going to love it........😆 Up the Bisby 👍

what is the average cost of this

Will this be as expensive as Economy 7 to run? Who do you work for.

I live right opposite one ,the noise it makes is when it come on and then when it shuts off..

If these worked we wouldn’t have to pay people to switch to them.

I watched that video, it's hard to believe a manufacturer and industry when we know from experience they lie. 👍👽

I’ve just watched Skill Builders video on heat pumps .He is spot on ,you are telling me exactly what the four salesmen from different companies told me before I brought one. I have spoken to engineers from LG and other companies,off the record they tell me they are uneconomic and deliver poor performance

So when I have a heat pump I have to heat my house all day when I'm not in it so I can be warm in the evening? That is economic stupidity as I can currently warm my house in an hour when I come in - with my combi boiler. If I come home in the day and want a shower the hot water is 'on tap' instantly so I use just what I want instead of heating a full tank . A heat pump is like going back to the 'cylinder in the airing cupboard' with an immersion heater. Heat pumps are so inflexible and inefficient. 3 kw for 24 hours is 72kwh

Agree about hydrogen but Roger never said ASHPs do not have future, they must be good for right applications. Noise level is important at night and early morning times, your statement that you will not have an issue with noise is not right as there will be cases when noise can be a problem. Do not be overconfident in your statements. Hybrid is a very sensible solution but will the government agree to it? Same issue with pure electric and plug in hybrids cars.