I was in that reality. I remember the Sega PlayStation, I recall a Sega Gensis, Gensis II, then Sega partnered with Sony and made the PS1(1997 I think, I remember playing the brand new one in the hospital when I was sick that year). Something caused them to split and Sega came out with Dreamcast (1998) then Nintendo finally got on board with CD drives with the GameCube (98 or 99). Then Sony came out with PS2 and then Microsoft got into the game with Xbox. When Xbox came out that was like the death nail for Sega, they stole a bunch of Sega's most popular titles.
Any documentary about Sega's decline should be titled "The Repeated Shitting on of Tom Kalinske". Kalinske was the strongest proponent of the Sega/Sony deal, and Sega decided to shit on him, and created their biggest competitor. Kalinske was the biggest proponent of using Silicon Graphics' hardware for the next Sega console, Sega of Japan shit on him again, and Nintendo used it for the 64. If Tom Kalinske had been at the helm with absolute power, the gaming world would be very different today.
Still amazes me today to think of how drastically different the gaming landscape would be if either Nintendo or Sega went with Sony on this. But considering I've enjoyed the hell out of what happened I guess it may have been for the best in a lot of ways
The whole story just amazes me in terms of how close these deals got to actually happening. I can only imagine what the outcome of these deals would have been.
Tom Kalinske brought success for SEGA with GENESIS. Yup, SOJ was incredibly stupid to let him go and let Bernie Stolar just destroy what Kalinske created. SEGA has no one to blame but its irrational decision-making. I hope Tom went on to greater things. Thank you, Tom for giving me the desire to pick up GENESIS during your time at the helm and making me a beloved old-school SEGA fan.
I just discovered this video and by far, this is the most informative video i have ever seen about Sega and Sony's partnerships. Truly a great research and excellent video you done here.
It really seems that Sega of Japan was the reason the company fell into decline. They just seemed bitter and jealous of Sega of America and Sega's success in western regions. Their stupid decisions just seemed like they were cutting off their own nose to spite their face. Imagine a world where Sega of Japan weren't paranoid idiots and worked with Sony. Sony would probably have bought Sega and made it the gaming division of Sony. Sure, they would have been under the thumb of Sony, but at least they wouldn't have ended up being a (relatively) minor publisher and mediocre game developer.
It would have been a very interesting change. Sega would still be a prominent name in the home console market. I've wondered since Sega watched NEC fail they just assumed a large giant like sony would have no clue how to go about entering the industry. I always found these events for Sega to be great what ifs.
I don't think the 32X was a bad idea, it was just again SEGA of Japan trying to push the Saturn, and not wanting to listen to SEGA of America or SEGA of Europe, who actually wanted to make the 32X it's own console being the Neptune that just happened to be backwards compatible to the Genesis/Mega Drive library, after the deal with SONY went bust, but again because SEGA of Japan and in this case SONY of Japan having their heads stuck up their collective asses, they could not get it together, and no I'm not taking up for them, but that's just the Japanese way when it comes to business it seems.
the 32x wasn't THAT bad. Especially if the Neptune standalone console had happened. The real problem is the 32x and Saturn showing up right on top of one another (and the idiotic way both were handled.) Honestly, if you look at Sega's principal wins in the console space, it's Europe that they should have focused all their attention on. That's the same mistake Commodore and Atari made when launching the last few products they had - they ignored their known market and obsessed over America instead. There were a stupid number of Atari Jaguar pre-orders in Europe, and basically none in the US... So what did Atari do? Focus ALL of their by that point incredibly limited resources on the US market, and left the pre-orders (eg. Guaranteed money) with nothing. Sega made similar bone-headed moves for various reasons... Then again, the Saturn was decently successful in Japan. Just... Not anywhere else.
Not flaming but was Neptune really a good idea with the state of hardware development at the time? We have hind sight but the heads of Sega should have known where the viability of the technology really fell at the time, they had the most experience with 3D graphics, their arcade machines were years ahead of consumer electronics at the time. 32x should have been a total non starter, Japanese devs knew it could not pull off any leap that would justify its price and in no time chips demolishing any ad-on for the MegaDrive would be hitting the market.
The more I hear about Sega of Japan's antics the madder I get. Its not a wonder that they're in the position they are today. Most recently their arrogance sunk the Sega forever program. They tried to get retroarch licensed to them but gave the developer ridiculous terms to work with so he rightfully refused. Instead they used in-house emulation and the whole thing has become a colossal dumpster fire.
Actually Sega Forever releases aren't doing that bad. Many of them have positive ratings on the Google Play Store. The only real issue I have with them is the controller support -- it's very mediocre at best. But many of the emulation issues that plagued its launch have been rectified at this point.
@ciredec Gellar lol What's not great about the ps2......your clear a nintendo fanboy that cant see how great the ps2 was and the reason why it sold over 157m
Nintendo is ok sega is dumb as hell they could of had the n64 technology with a cd rom that would of killed the ps1 poor Tom he tried twice to save sega
What an extremely interesting story. I think in hindsight this deal was best for gaming going forward. We ended up with four great consoles with a ton of games that might not have been realized if Sony's and Sega's efforts were combined. Great job on the video!
When I first read about this in Console Wars, I felt a tinge of sadness about what could have been for Sega. And now hearing this again, I just want to hold my Sega Genesis, shed a tear and curse Sega of Japan forever. And yes, I am a fanboy.
I was a Sega fanboy too. But the moment I saw ff7 I defected like a cold war Russian tired of borscht and snow. Still love my genesis and Sega cd. But have only bought sony's since. With the exception of the game cube I got for the twin snakes
How frustrating that period should have been for Tom Kalinski, being held back and having his ideas and deals he had cultivated abandoned because of pride and jealously from the other division an ocean away Great video and thank u for this insight, now i know who to thank for my memories with the PS1
MafiousBJ Glad to read you enjoyed the video. If you want more insight into that period of Sega. I suggest reading the book Console Wars it's a great read.
HistoricNerd i might since my holidays are coming, the hardware is sometimes ignored regarding success during a console generation (like how easy it's to develop for) and looking back it's funny to see the frankestein add-ons some companies came up with to keep their consoles relevant. You have very interesting videos in your channel (really liked the sega virtua chip one), keep it up!
I was at this E3 and at both the Sega and the PlayStation conference. We were stoked for the Saturn despite the meeting we had had with them before the launch of the 32X where a SOA rep let slip about the Saturn and the Japanese rep with them went absolutely ape shit. But once we learned about the Saturn we were ready to buy thousands of units. Then when Race came to the mic and said that we literally almost shit our pants, we couldn’t believe it. I and my Colleagues almost all said immediately “Sega is fucked” even though the PSone still hadn’t proved anything. But if you were at that show and looked at what was on the floor you knew Sony had something special. I love the Saturn and thought the Saturn had an excellent E3 95, but the price, fuck me, the price was just brutal compared to Sony even though it was really that different because Sony pulled a GOP and conveniently forgot to mention that you still needed a memory card, another controller, etc. I’d just like to say that at E3 95 Atari had a fuck awesome booth and the VR unit they showed and I got to play behind the curtains was amazing. Fcuk the haters! 😎
Awesome video. I had NO idea that Sony tried to partner with Sega after their brief stint with Nintendo. I fucking love it when you and WWG come out with new vids.
So, in an attempt to prevent the creation of a rival overnight, Nintendo partnered with Phillips instead, yet they still made a rival. Sure sounds like a lose-lose situation either way you sliced it.
I almost think it would have been a better plan to let Sony Release the CD add on for the Snes at least in that way Nintendo could have controlled them more. Its hard to say what could have happened but mistakes were made by Nintendo and Sega.
+HistoricNerd But how would that have given them any "control" over Sony? Sony only wanted the partnership as a way into the industry, when they'd learned all they wanted things would have progressed just as they did, with Sony making their own consoles anyway. Remember, the original SNES-compatible PlayStation was demoed in the same year as the SNES CD, and the breakdown between the two concerned the lockout chip showing again that Nintendo certainly weren't in the driving seat and really weren't able to "control" Sony even before the console's release. By dropping Sony when they did, Nintendo effectively kept them out of the industry until late 1994 when otherwise they would have been a threat to them years earlier.
me2olive Really just a theory, my idea was that elements in Sony weren't 100% committed to their own system. So basically Nintendo would under support the CD system and only make cartridges. So it would fall on Sony to push software and hardware in the hopes of making it a viable platform. Which with the Sega CD and the TurboGrafx CD as examples we know those system were expensive and didn't sell too many units. So Nintendo could have pulled/tricked sony into a fiscal sink hole of supporting a expensive system with limited software.
Yes, but given that they were also releasing a standalone system would it have mattered if nobody bought the SNES CD itself? That just puts Sony in the same position they were eventually in when the PlayStation was first released, with the added benefit of SNES backwards compatibility. I don't know if that would really have hurt them too badly, but it could have hurt the N64's sales considerably if Nintendo owners had already taken the Sega upgrade route by that time.
Excellent work as usual--it looks like you're getting very familiar with animating using After Effects. Very nice. I had no idea about this story, and I love the Saturn. Thankfully this deal fell through and the Saturn went on to become the international sensation we all know it became. If not, I don't think we'd be getting Panzer Dragoon Saga VII on our Dreamcast 3 later this year. I've been looking forward to that one since it was first announced on the Dreamcast 2 years ago.
That's a fact that's how it really happened in the history of Sega Nintendo and Sony that's exactly right I really enjoyed this video keep it up good work making it Happy Thanksgiving have a good Christmas and a Happy New Year in 2018 it's going to be fun😉
Hey, it's Wrestling with Gaming in this! Two cool guys :D Poor Sega. I drifted away from consoles after Genesis/SNES because of the 3D craze, but it's still sad how the company just made mistake after mistake.
Yeah, The Sega had some really interesting opportunities that could have changed their fate. Its just really neat to look at these events with hindsight.
The underlying assumption seems to be that Sony would've been happy in their partner role beyond a first-generation collaboration, and that's how they'd be "tamed". Surely Sony's actions quite clearly show that they were determined to get into the hardware market in their own right one way or another and were just looking for insight. Even if the Saturn had been a collab, it seems clear that Sony wouldn't want to stay chained to Sega after they'd learned what they could, so at best this would only have delayed the inevitable. Nintendo/Sega of Japan were gambling that without help, Sony would try and fail, and when you look at the sheer number of failed consoles around that time from some pretty big names that must have seemed like a good bet. Just because things turned out they way they did it doesn't mean their decision was actually wrong.
Man thank you for making this vid, I had no idea Sony even spoke a word to SEGA after the Playstation debacle. To think SEGA may have prospered at least for another decade as a real company before being forced out of hardware is fascinating. Perhaps it was all for the best. Ironically the rot of gambling machines has cut the legs off Japanese capital investment in gaming as an artform, instead of pachi machines westerns publishing giants have simply digitized their casino operations behind family friendly licences.
Chino Gambino Glad you enjoyed it. I was kinda blown away the deeper I got into this. Sega really had an opportunity to win here. Not sure if you watched my other video but Sega had another opportunity where they could have gotten the hardware for the N64 over Nintendo.
Tried to tell you when you were on my channel but if this were to of happen it would of been Sega Play Station, PlayStation as two words not one but just a simple title edit so no biggie. Great video!
That was amazing. You just keep out doing yourself with these videos HN. Also, I noticed that your Sub count is over 9000! WHAT?!? 9000? Congratulations, you deserve all this success and so much more. It makes me happy to see you guys grow :).
Arthouse Anime Thanks. I think there are 2 other videos out there but I always felt they missing a bit. I find backing up what happened with a primary sources is what the other videos lack.
HistoricNerd yeah. Some briefly just mention it as an idea. I think the interview with Kalisnke about the Sega Playstation doesn’t mention that much about the Sony-Sega relationship. Not many do.
You know what? At this point, I think it would've been less destructive for Sega to have had completely different consoles for the Japan/Asia and global markets. Let SOJ sell their precious Saturn far away, _over there_ , and the rest of us may be free to enjoy the Sega PlayStation. Sega was already in the habit of manufacturing numerous hardware products simultaneously, so fuck it.
I remember in 1992 Nintendo saying their CD add on would have a 32-bit co-processor. I'm assuming this was the Philips model because we've seen the Sony prototype and it was just a Snes with a CD-ROM. I'm glad they didn't stick with Sony because it would have been underpowered compared to the Sega CD which does increase processing power. considering the Snes competed just fine with cart based games it might not have been a problem, but I'd still like to see that Philips prototype.
My personal opinion to this video Sega should have stuck with Sony and meet in the middle straight down the line 50/50 of the profit on a new console they create together and Sega wouldn't be bankrupt right now if they continued to work with Sony and they both could have revolutionized the console world and be unstoppable force to be reckoned with but Sony did the right thing on there own and made there own console the Ps1 Sony is very very smart and very dangerous which destroyed Sega when Sega created a new console first the Dreamcast witch is dead such a shame I miss Sega consoles so much one love to Sega man excellent video great history between free brands that I didn't even know they was working with each other back in the days very interesting to know
You will be at 100k subscribers in no time. A lot of people like this stuff and you do it well. Just give it some time. if i had to nitpick anything id say the end was read a little slow. but thats stretching it. i wish i could give you better criticisms.
I first heard about PlayStation from commercials back in the days. It had this game called "Final Fantasy VII", it was made by Square Soft and it looked awesome. However there was also the Nintendo 64. So I was wondering if we had to pick one of the two, what would be? PlayStation or Nintendo 64? If we chose N64, we would play these Nintendo titles, but then we wouldn't be able to play Final Fantasy VII. I thought the Sega DreamCast was the awesome next thing to go for afterwards.
channelofstuff Unfortunately the DreamCast ended quickly and XBox came into the picture, so not there was 3 companies in the Console wars. Don't get me wrong: I like Halo, I've been focused on Metal Gears and Square titles. In the end, I ended up with PlayStation 3 specifically for Metal Gear Solid 4 and PlayStation 4 specifically for several things: Metal Gear Solid Vs, Final Fantasy X HD and PSVITA connectivity.
(From multiple videos/creators:) -SoJ is jealous of SoA's/SoEurope's successes. -SoJ hates anything those Americans propose. -SoJ sabotages Sony partnership, Silicon Graphics partnership, kneecaps Saturn via early launch, reverses SoA decisions. -SoJ still bitter about being founded by Americans (Service Games+Rosen Enterprises) and maybe(?) considered not a 'real' Japanese company. -Sega's been owned by various holding companies since 1969, and it's quite possible its Board simply didn't know what to do with Sega other than 'be profitable'. A situation highly adverse to allowing charismatic people like Kalinsky to make decisions.
If Sega had gone through with the same deal that was presented to Nintendo at the time, they wouldn't have be a hardware manufacturer at that time anymore and only would've gone a measly %20 or %15 of revenue from software developements. They would've been absorbed as a Playstation puppet like Nintendo would've been. Something Yamauchi found to be unexceptable.
But sony did however produced chips for the saturn and even in later nes revisions you can see a sony chip inside them, so it was not 100% each for their own.
So not only did Sega of Japan turn down Silicon Graphics (N64), but they also turned down Sony? Man, talk about shooting yourself in the foot. If only Sega’s executives could look past their pride.
Both Nintendo & SEGA should've realized what Sony was intending to do, and despite there reluctance Sony still accomplished this, what was it?....set a new high water mark in hardware sales.
There was a article that came out about a year ago. That has a bit of their perspective. The main stated issue was cultural issues between SOJ and Sony. But I'm sure it's deeper than that.
Hell, Sony had the money, had the knowledge, they could of entered the gaming industry back in the 1980's. We'd of likely seen optical disc games back in the 16-bit era if they had. But, I digress... Things worked out ultimately for the better. Well, that's what I think anyway...
They definetly had the funds and manufacturing capacity + the R&D but at that point they knew nothing of the gaming market and game development, hence why they felt the need ot partner up with Nintendo or Sega but by the time both deals flopped Sony had what they wanted(some argue SONY never intended ot partner with either of them, they just wanted ot peek into both companies technical aspects to create their own process) and now had thr knowledge to enter the console market and a set of prototypes to work from(what would have become the disc drive for the SNES).
SONY was really out to get what they wanted and devour anyone along the way. Usually people point at how short-sighted Nintendo and SEGA are/were, specifically about their dealings with SONY... And, certainly, there's some truth to that. But, if we look at thing at a more fundamental level, SONY was and is a giant, as the video points out, and you can never make a true equitative deal with someone that's so much more stronger than you. I'm pretty sure that if either Nintendo or SEGA would have stuck to SONY, SONY would still have mauled them, because it could, and perhaps it's even better for them that they didn't, as they could have ended being completely destroyed or absorved into SONY instead. SONY was a threat from the moment they wanted to be more than, as the video says, a hardware supplier, IMHO. They were never friendly nor aimed at long term mutual benefit. It's pretty obvious to me that their intention from the start was to take over the market. In that sense, Nintendo and SEGA were justified in their distrust for them. In fact, seeing how SEGA actually went along with SONY for much longer than Nintendo did, could that have been a factor in their soon-to-be demise? I mean, it seems SONY themselves played a role in the MegaCD, and we know how that turned out. I'm not discharging SEGA of their own fault, but, imagine Nintendo went along with their deal with SONY? that could have easily destroyed them. Another possibility would have been if Nintendo or SEGA would have accepted the deal and secretly schemed to sabotage or gain control over SONY over from the inside. It sounds farfetched though.
Sony tried to pull a fast one Nintendo, then humbled up and gave a solid deal to SEGA...what a bummer. Maybe could have had 2 whole systems of experimental PSX games and progressive arcade games, since they probably would have worked together on the Dream Station too
The point you make at around 7.30... it would have been impossible for Sega to be able to forsee the impact of a couple of individuals. Unless they had someone actually working for them from within Sony how would they even know the company had such people?
Lorfarius what's really neat about that is Steve Race actually worked under Tom Kalinske as one of SOAs head marketing guys before he was recruited by Sony. Olaf had worked with Tom Kalinske since the beginning of the Sega Sony partnership. So there was a strong relationship there which I guess I could have explained better in the video.
I can only say that i'm so happy Sony didn't give up! I mean, i love Sega, i love Atari and i love Nintendo. 1 of the 3 "survived". Even though the Atari coming back, but it's not from the same people or something like that? Anyway, i still love Nintendo, specially with titles like Zelda and Mario. But the Playstation does have my heart. I must say that i'm impressed with what Microsoft is doing with the X1X. But i'm still missing some great exclusives to play on that system. So for me, (at this moment), i'm holding off to see where this is going :-)
Wow that was great and interesting seeing Sega and Sony team up to make the Sega PlayStation but Sega of Japan pull the plug and that's sad cuz if they went with that path Sega and Nintendo could still be in the console wars and imagine a 3D Sonic game was made for the Sega PlayStation and was a sequel to Sonic 3 & knuckles
Sega of America = Visionaries Sega of Japan = Idiots, pride comes before the fall, 2d system priced to sell at $399...oh shit, Sony Playstation 3d at $299...BANDAID, BANDAID, BANDAID! Slap some 3d hardware on there, who cares if it's complicated, "We are Sega, and they will want to design games for us." - Sega circa 1995 -
Great video. It truly would have been interesting to see what could have been if both SEGA of Japan, and SONY of Japan had not had their bullish heads stuck up their asses, and even though Nintendo could have handled the whole deal with SONY better, I think in the long run they made the right move seeing as they are the last "pure" gaming company left that makes it's own hardware, and software, and no I don't count Microsoft, or Sony seeing as they have other divisions of their companies that produce things not related to gaming like TV's, Blu-Ray players, Smart Phones, etc..(SONY), and Microsoft with Windows, Surface books, Surface Tablets, AR headsets, etc.. Edit: Japanese business practices truly are a strange thing, and could be multiple topics all on their own, and I think should be covered more on this channel to get a better understanding of why some of the decisions Japanese game companies make might sound totally stupid to us in the west, but at the same time might make perfect since in Japan, and/or other Asian markets.
Ive actually been thinking about the Nintendo deal more and I think if Nintendo had let Sony Release the CD attachment Nintendo could of at the very least under supported it which could have forced Sony to either double down with the stand alone unit or to cease production. The whole thing is just a fascinating what if.
still amazes me how many times sega of japan over rules sega of america/tom kalinske on things that would have blown the market away most likely and made sega a ton of money and either kept them battling nintendo or more like pushed them over the top over nintendo at least in the american and western markets in many cases.
it's a shame tom kalinske didn't just jump ship and start his own video game company, i've seen so many great ideas over the years from him, and sega made such great games under his leadership. instead he just left seemingly disillusioned and left the industry except sometimes giving an interview it seems.
