HOME ENERGY Episode 6 - ZERO EMISSION HEATING & BOILER SPOILERS | Fully Charged 

we need the big home builders to adopt these an other tech. The fact they remove the piping should be sold to them as simplifying the building of new homes. They should love that sort of that stuff.

Very interesting to hear! What are your energy costs per kWh ? In Germany we have the highest prices which might add a lot to the bill so it might only be an option with solar.

Dave, Can you give a bit more detail on size of property. Annual kWh used for heating and capital costs please. I am really wondering how to get rid of gas in my home. I have an EV , solar panels, Zappi and an Eddi. I like the idea of a heat battery for hot water twinned with maybe infrared heating. Need to compare with ASHP etc

@@DavidKnowles0 This is strictly worse than a heat pump you know? A heat pump should have less than a 1/3 of the annual running costs. That being the case, I'd want them to be installing a heat pump and underfloor heating on a new build. Just like 10 years ago I'd expect my new build to have central heating installed. As a retrofit option to an older property it may well be fine. it wouldn't / shouldn't be optimal for a new build though.

@@abdebee3221 I'm with an 100% renewable supplier that is currently charging a unit rate (per kWh) 18.0810p with a standing charge of 23.2890p per day. Ill defiantly be looking at getting solar down the line when I can afford to do so.

Me too. Great idea, but would cost a lot to set up I expect.

I’d love to see the average consumer try to find the money to pay for it.

It would be a lovely test in a row of terrace houses. Great Idea

Yes pls. I hv a 3 storey townhouse in the Greater Toronto Area and am looking forward seeinģ solutions for smaller, more closely packed housing

Very disappointed that we weren’t given any information on the power consumption and likely running costs.

Infrared heaters as all electric heaters has an efficiency of 100%. All the electrcicity is easily converted to heat. BUT compared to regular electric heaters, Infrared is super weak. 700W for a large picture. And you might need 3000W for a medium size room. So prepare to buy 5 large infrared pictures for a single room. And again, compared to heat pump, which has and efficiency of 400-600%, all those direct electric heaters are just a waste of energy with efficiency of 100%. When and If somebody finaly produce Quiet heatpump, that would use quiet rottary compressor instead of piston one, than finaly everybody could easily change their heaters and mount those quiet heatpumps in every room.

As said they are 100% efficient. As you are directly heating people and objects you can run IR at lower temps and still feel warmer than a conventional convection system. Also one thing to consider, for the cost of a heat pump system you may be able to have an IR system and solar pv installed with battery storage .

I've looked at infra red recently. It's literally instant heat as soon as they are switched on, so much quicker to get the room warm. I cant seem to get an answer to how quick the room gets to temp and how long the heat is retained to get a feel for running costs. I'm going to do as others have done and buy a couple to test it out. Its the only way to tell. Can't find much on the Internet to judge any other way...

@@TheJimurq It is always difficult to advise on running costs due to the many factors involved. With IR as you have said the panel warm-up time is 5-10 minutes so very quick. How long it would take the room to warm up would depend on how well it retains heat and the initial temperature when the system comes on.

Looking at the views for this episode 3 weeks later i think they will stick with cars.

I had similar experience as I wondered if the SunAmp might replace our ancient GEC Nitstor Electric Storage Heater to Water Heating System (before this video & hearing about the ZEB) they didn't know & suggested speaking to installers who wouldn't have a clue.

This isn't a review, its a straight up twwenry minute advert/paid promotion, but they don't have the courage to be upfront about the fact

The systems/should/ use the same amount of energy. and all /should/ be about the same as standard electric heating. They're all ~100% efficient. The benefits come from time shifting the energy use. Im not convinced by the first one. old 2 or 3 bar heaters were radiated heat. theyre useful for 'instant' heat. so you could have one in an unheated bathroom hooked up to the light switch, and youd feel the benefit in the 5 minutes you were in there. as a general whole house solution its going to be as expensive and efficient as £20 oil filled radiators.

@@benholroyd5221 I'm totally with you on this. The problem with the IR solution is that there isn't any energy storage system or thermal mass. It relies heavily on the insulation and air tightness of the building. Heating up thin plaster boards, wooden planks and carpet from the surface isn't going to keep the house warm. In short, it's just an electric panel heater.

@@kenneth6102 Not quite. A normal electric panel heater is using mostly convection to hear the air in the room. And IR panel is using radiation to heat the object it is pointed at. Less energy is lost to drafts or through lack of airtightness.

@@EP-bb1rm While it is true that less energy is lost to draft since the heat is transferred through IR, the effectiveness of the heater is hugely affected by the materials in the house. For instance, a white or light-coloured room with carpeted or shinny waxed wooden floor and wallpapered or thin plasterboard walls will basically render the IR heater useless. You would need huge thermal mass in the space with high specific heat capacity and it also need to be heat absorbent. If the materials (either due to the lack of mass or low specific heat capacity) raise a few more degrees with the same energy given, it would be more affected by air-tightness. I am sorry that I was jumping logical steps and didn't explain myself clearly. It feels to me that the requirements of the construction for this IR heating's effectiveness is set at a very high bar. An average house would need a lot of refitting in order to make the IR heating efficient and worthwhile. In a case of a newly poured concrete floor, for instance, one might as well install a sub-floor radiant heating system instead. The fundamental problem with heating is always energy retention or storage. Any solution that does not tackle this directly is pretty much missing the point. If I were to swap out my radiators for this thing, I might as well spend on improving the airtightness of my doors and windows. Moreover, UK's winter is miserably wet and cold, the humidity in the air would probably absorb a good amount of the IR. I am very sorry to say that this IR product is trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Agreed.. Especially when it's worth about 7 power walls That's pretty damn good It'd be nice to use solar panels and then have the excess go into those waterstone things and use when needed.. And then use gas for any excess

Fully Charged Home channel?

I think there are already some videos on you tube about this subject. Could try skill builder channel as a first call.

@@livingladolcevita7318 SB vid is 12 years old, sure times have moved on.

@@elminster8149 the was a episode about it being installed at Eden months ago /watch?v=o--vpET3e4g

@@That1ufo Yeah, I mean in a domestic install. Tight access etc.

@@elminster8149 Ive seen it done locally they use the same rig as well drillers so you would need a garden/drive big enough to get the rig in, and then somewhere to fit a large water tank. The pluming part is very basic and the same as a ground loop system.

Im sure its only efficient as any bar heater 1kw = 1kw vs heat pumps at cop 3-6

@@That1ufo How sure?

@@dodgydd 100%, the saving would be if you turned the house all off and had that pointing at you when you sit at your desk, its been on amazon for 5 years.

I work in oil and gas and love nerding out to this stuff. One thing with a lot of this stuff is there is less moving parts so there is less that can go wrong. I'm not really too worried about losing my job either since we are starting to slowly move over to hydrogen which will mean I've still got a job.

@@pin65371 Is that in North America or Europe?

@@neddyl1225 Alberta Canada.... we have an election coming up and all the parties have put a priority on hydrogen. We already have a lot of the infrastructure in place to start ramping up production. The bigger companies will be doing blue hydrogen with carbon capture but a smaller company has figured out how to do the conversion underground and once the process is started they can use heat to produce power to keep the whole process going and if any co2 does come up they capture it and send it back underground.

If you have enough solar on your roof, it would be effectively free. Of course an issue with that is that the yield of those is pretty minimal when you'd most need it (i.e. winter evenings when it's dark, cold, and you are at home). But it's a valid point. Take cheap electricity off peak when you have the heating off and discharge during peak hours when electricity would be expensive. With lots of wind coming online everywhere, it's not going to be that expensive. But there's just a fixed number of kwh that you are going to need to heat your place no matter how or when you consume the electricity. The grid is probably not the cheapest place to get that for most people.

I think the point is you would be using off peak power, otherwise why would you bother storing the heat for later. Typical off-peak tariffs like octopus go would be 5p a kWh. I don't think we can expect to go much lower or zero carbon without some premium.

@@barriedear5990 Surely likely running costs should have been mentioned for a range of typical uk houses for each product. I’ve installed IR panels in a flat, They work wonderfully well, but to pretend that the work involved isn’t disruptive is disingenuous. Unless of course you don’t mind cable trunking all over your home. Love these new ideas, but average working people need accurate costings. Ps how many people’s existing boilers are anywhere near ‘washing machine’ size?

Something I've noticed. Electrical goods come down in price over time.

Also flooding our cities will cost a fair bit too.

I bet somewhere theres an electric boiler called a gnome. I'll have to do more research and suse it out.

£800! I am amazed you can afford internet.

Absolutely. Very succinct and very important.

I have a heat pump with 180 liters in it. I have solar panels as well. I told my heat pump to make new hot water at 13:00h each day. Highest change for it to be done with the electricity from my own panels. You don't need the ZEB to store energy from the sun ;-)

@@StefanvanderFange yea, there are more aspects to the plumbing of a heat pump, plus the fitting externally, and the noise. Technically it also needs planning permission because it would be within 3m of a neighbouring property. But I really like the efficiency of an ASHP, don't get me wrong.

I agree, it'll be of interest to us as global warming sets in!

Yes please. 1st day of spring here in Brisbane Australia, at 1pm it was 27 degrees Celcius.

"Off peak" will actually become more flexible as it'll be when the wind is blowing, not a fixed few hours overnight when the nuclear power stations have nothing to do. That said, this would be a massive expansion in electricity demand and would require staggering improvements in the grid and a massive build out of wind turbines and solar.

@@paulgoffin8054 Build-out of renewable generation, definitely, yes. Grid upgrades, not so much. The average UK house, at least, has a 60A fuse and can easily be upgraded to 100A without replacing the low voltage hardware, whereas typical peak demand at the moment rarely hits 32A - tons of overhead for EV charging and heat devices, particularly off-peak. There will be some places where substations need adding or upgrading, but probably not as many as you'd think. Tangent: solid-state transformers are on the way. More expensive to install, but more efficient and therefore good for the grid. Moreover, ultra-high demand sites (e.g. service station with 32+ EV rapid chargers) can use AC-to-DC solid-state transformers to bring the efficiency up, connect to the medium voltage grid (eliminating the need for multiple dedicated substations) and simplify the hardware in the rapid chargers themselves (reducing cost).

@Glenn Lambert A proper comparison between some of these technologies in a sample of house types would be *amazing*. And doing them over the lifespan of the system would also be really informative. Here in the UK, at least, solar generation tanks during the winter, but wind generation booms. Electricity rates will probably move to hourly rates (for some customers, at least) - in the winter, these will inversely track the wind generation pretty closely, and battery-users like yourself will be able to fill up when the wind is blowing and the prices are low. This is, also, why I'm so excited for tidal and wave power - they generate more in the winter than in the summer, like wind and river hydro. Variable generation is not a problem if it generates more when you need it and less when you don't, and grids will need to bring serious energy storage on-stream anyway.

@@gigabyte2248 The limit isn't at homes, it's the grid interconnectors. We can't bring power from windy Scotland to calm England. We can bring power from the sunny South West to the dusk time North East. The grid wasn't designed to move power around that way.

Wish I'd looked more at ground source but I wasn't as informed then as I am now, assumed it was too expensive anyway and asked the wrong people about them (guys trying to sell us ASHP's). If I had another chance I would certainly have spoke to a couple of ground source installers - it still might not have been right for us but I'd at least feel good that I would have heard that from ground source specialists.

@@chrismartin2663 Yes, we came upon a way to install the ground loops cheaply and without distrubing the landscape. We also didn't have to drill expensive holes.

Um... 😁

I have learnt I can't afford to go green.

Not learnt much of use - it was a series of seeming adverts with very little info to offer a comparison with existing tech or their competitors. The channel made a similar error with the Swytch bike episode - more like an advertorial.

@@billybilly7100 I have to agree. It was all the positives with no negatives and no real comparison between the tech and what would work best when. I was disappointed. I ex3the only reason that all those things mentioned at the end (heat recovery etc) weren't actually covered is they didn't find a company to talk to in the same way!

Thanks it was all interesting. I knew an overview of most of the systems surveyed. But there were lots of small but crucial points I did not know. Like would Powerball require 3 phase supply, and should there be a mains supply failure, will the storage battery kick in ? As so many people have said against each of the episodes, need real life examples, with costs of install, retrofit and running costs as a minimum.especially after the post Putin invasion of Ukraine... Changing all the costs. As has been rammed home, insulate first, and therefore could we have examples and costs of retrofitting internal and external solid walls etc These would be my starters. Thanks

There's no comparison. Heat pumps push heat up hill, from a cold to a hot. The further up you push it, the more energy it takes. So an air to air pushes heat up from say 0 degrees outdoors, to 20 degrees indoors. An air to water pushes from 0 outside to 60 degrees inside the hot water tank. Then it's allowed to slide back to 20 degrees on the room. It's inherently inefficient. It's like the difference between walking one flight of stairs, to get to the second floor, and climbing up four floors and then sliding down a slippery dip from the fourth floor to the second. It's just a waste of energy for no benefit.

@@gasdive That is a brilliant illustration, it is why I wonder why the UK and Fully Charged always push for air to water. I am thinking of getting a mini split HP for heating and solar for hot water but it is actually hard to find an air to air HP in Ireland

@@gasdive well, when you out it that way… 🤔

@@gasdive to be fair, the air to water one is giving you hot water as well. But if you dont use much hot water, a tankless water heater at each tap combined with air to air for space heating feels like it could be pretty damn efficient.

Wet radiators feel like a bit of a legacy problem in the UK. Because we have so many wet heating systems, theres a push for air to water heat pumps. Less of a perceived change.. but it doesn't half feel like an overcomplicated and expensive way of doing things!

your concern is with the surrounding ambient ground temperature and to stop the influx of it under your foundation, here where i live in Canada, most homes have basements or cellars as some people call them or slab homes like your homes in the UK are built , any foundation is usually excavated at the perimeter and cleared of any debris or obstructions and then is insulated from the bottom up to ground level where it will then be back filled with the material that was removed in the first place and it doesn't take allot to save energy and have warm floors and walls , the last home i designed had a basement and at the construction stage we put blue styrofoam insulation mounted to the concrete walls right from the footing up to ground level again, approx 2 metres, then it water proofing was done and back filled and during the winter months you could walk on the basement floor in socks and your feet weren't cold and thats with-25 celsius outside temps , my current house is like yours its a slab home concrete foundation with a wood frame construction walls and roofing with asphalt shingles, my heating is gas forced air with the ducting in the floors that was installed before the slab was poured, the bills are 96.67 sterling/month on equal payment plan based on 12 months, that is for both gas/electric and includes a very well insulted hot tub built on my deck outback, i am doing a new roof in September and in 2022 and 2023 i will do some new windows 1or 2 at a time and dig out around my foundation in install the blue styrofoam insulation {approved by code} around it and back fill over it, and i know it makes a difference my neighbour had it done and walk on their floors and it is a noticeable comfort almost 4 celsius when we measured it with a heat camera, the places it was cooler was at the doors, that was because the doors are 20 yrs old and are now changed in 2021, the material cost is not huge, looking at under 4500 with taxes CDN the material is erosion proof 20 yr warranty 2inches/50mm thick and is almost R20 which is more than what is in my walls so its not as difficult as some people think it is, more labour involved than anything really, and with my new roof i will also reinsert my attic space and add a new roof ventilation, here in Canada in winter it makes huge difference for us, remember our fuel costs here are less than yours and my house isa single level 7 room house 3 bedrooms, single bathroom, it sucks,LOL, kitchen, living room and heat or boiler room as you call it and large walk in pantry/storage room so yes it is small, so i would guess the work for is subject to access around your foundation ex: neighbours, fences and so on, you could even do some of it yourself with a few mates and mini diggers are cheap to rent and in most places there in the UK doesn't require you to have a license to operate one and are less the a metre wide and you can rent electric ones and plug them into your house, have fun, 👍

That's not really practical. Which side of the wall is insulated? Maybe you can dig down on that side and insulate there.

IR panels are 100% efficient so 1kwh of electric provides 1kw of heat.

@@appaynter so still not as good as heat pump then?!

@@skybenedict it does depend on the project and if the ir panels are combined with solar and battery storage. The current issue with heat pumps is the capital cost and retrofit projects. New builds are ok but often the radiator system in a retrofit needs upgrading for heat pumps due to the lower water temps being used.

The whole idea of heat storage is to use cheap night time electricity.

If you would like to know then please contact Herschel and I am sure we could advise.

Exactly, it's glossing over stuff like this that spoils the sales pitch.

@@elminster8149 yes or I would expect them to have gas safe trained staff so they can do the whole installation.

You're right - there are a whole load of taxes related to carbon on your electricity bill that are absent on your gas bill. In today's world where ~50% of UK electricity is green, this situation needs to be changed.

YES! Ventilation is a huge topic, and I'd love to hear more about active and passive cooling options.

Good luck with FC Live BTW, can't wait until the Amsterdam one.

The ZEB can provide hot water.

Microwave boilers also seem to be another solution.

@@DavidKnowles0 I don't know much about those, but if they're a similar size and piping, definitely. They'll certainly need to get around the scare factor though for the general public. If people thought 5G was bad, there will be a rebellion on this 😂

@@DavidKnowles0 I never quite "got" microwave boilers as a standard resistance heater is 100% efficient anyway.

biggest problem with electric instantaneous heat is it will spike your usage and no opportunity to shift the load, so potentially more expensive and harder for the grid to handle. A storage tank makes a great battery

@@waynecartwright7276 oh absolutely. But it will be the easiest replacement if you have a combi boiler and don't have the space for energy storage. I know many people don't want to renovate to get to net zero and a simple replacement will be the quickest route for net-zeroing home heating. The best solution for replacing all these combi boilers would be a plug and play replacement and somehow cheaper than just direct heating of water, but pretty sure that's not feasible with peak electricity prices.

The country is going electric and gas is heavily subsidised. Over time electric and gas will align, it will have to if the government wants to meet their carbon goal.

Reversible heat pump (air sourced should do where you are) using an air system with MHRV in the system.

Having stone floors, with insulation under, would be taking advantage of the thermal mass. Similar with cavity wall that have cavity wall insulation. Carpets would act as an insulation barrier. The heat soaks into the thermal mass, then, as the lady said, convect back out when the air temperature is less than the wall temperature. These infra red heaters appear a great solution for flats.

@@johnburns4017 they may be a very good solution too if you have a heat pump and a seriously cold day. A secondary heat source to be used as a backup.

A very common misconception, heat doesn’t rise, hot air rises.

@@appaynter Hot water rises as well.

It seems to be a lot of adverts with unquestioning love. For a couple of thousand you can put in a reverse cycle airconditioner that will save you in the coming 50 degree days, and give you heating at 3-700% efficency. You can then throw away all the radiators and associated plumbing.

The series is too modular. We need a "round up" of all the options, the costs, pros, cons etc. So we have a clear overview and comparison of current/upcoming tech.

The government haven’t ‘mandated’ the use of pv and other renewables into new builds because they can continue to make billions a year from existing use of fossil fuels. Also, if you have to pay for retrofitting pv or otherwise, the fitting company pays vat as do you when you purchase it, and therefore more income for the government. Pv, wind, solar heat etc will provide you with free energy - yes initially you will pay for the fitment, but over time it will save you and then reduce your household fuel costs to potentially zero. If this is provided as part of the build initially, then how are the energy companies and government going to make a decent amount back from you? They’re not, and that’s the point. Maybe I’m missing something, but governments are never going to give you anything for free. I have an electric car, and 99.99% of the time use free charging, but once the vehicles become more mainstream, free chargers will ease to exist, and household electricity prices will hike up so the energy companies and Governments can make billions back where they no longer do through petrol/diesel. I’d absolutely love to go off grid pretty much totally using PV, battery storage and other sources of heating/cooling, but at this time it’s just too expensive for me and most others even on a decent income. I believe it’ll head that way in the future for more and more people, but will take a few more decades yet unfortunately to make it financially viable for most.

@@glenny2960 you summed it up perfectly

Good point. I will give the insulated property down the street and ask them how it is going. Thanks