I had no idea what avenue to go down in tackling this question, thank you Jesus for speaking through pastor John that we may understand you and our place under you better, praise God, bless you pastor John
I really enjoyed this episode, but (if anyone at the ministry is bothering to read these comments) I would appreciate a more precise title to deal with the specific topic discussed. This isn't a typical question of the general issue of theodicy. Thanks for keeping on with great content, God bless Pastor John and all the staff that go into making Desiring God! Especially the web developers and content producers - you guys don't get enough credit ;)
I’m meeting with a NK Refugee to share Jesus with her. The hardest concept for her to understand about God is why He allowed her family to starve almost to death and watch people die growing up.
@@danasmith1165 Easy for you to condemn everyone. Here's the truth that many people have to face in their life. Scriptures are good to quote but most of the times experience says otherwise.
Gideon Paul keep being a fool. Jesus was marred more than Any man -- He Died so you can avoid eternal death. I would die for Him. You can choose to follow satan. Bye Fool. Don't Bother me.
In a world of ego-self, love is made vulnerable and thus love suffers. It is inevitable that it will. And to me THAT is the reason why we are here. It is not just for the soul to experience itself for experience's sake (this is not just a game as some allege) but to experience its love and to experience its love under duress when it is being tested to the hilt. The soul is developing and in this context its love is known, is experienced, is purified, be matured. And the soul advances. If the soul was not developing then suffering would have no justificaiton except for the perverse pleasure of somebody who wants to witness suffering for suffering's sake.
@S.g. W What you're claiming is Prosperity Gospel, not the actual Gospel. Look at what Jesus Christ went through, and He was the Son of God! People suffer for a variety of reasons, not necessarily because they don't have Christ within themselves. Prosperity Gospel leads people to judge and condemn others.
@@waterotter3625 I don't think you've understood the question. I had the same objections (among many more). God's existence is undeniable therefore He is. But suffering is too much and there is not a good theodicy that could help us think that the God-interventionist as is presented in Bible or other religious accounts is good. This and many more has lead me to deism.
There is no way we are going to Learn to Live Right and learn to Obey Gods Commandments.. unless we suffer. For every broken commandment there is consequences and we will Suffer. God Cannot Change it either. That is why He Gave us Commandments to Obey.
Perhaps...if the sufferers are truly born of God, then they would receive the grace to take joy in suffering (whether during, after...), in order to save the strong. And having the privilege of bringing/turning someone to God is the best honour I can think of. As PJ suggested, the strong being able to be sanctified by serving the weak/sufferers. The sufferers sanctified by suffering for the strong. God as the author of all good change in a person. Jesus Christ said, blessed are the poor in spirit, the meek, the peacemakers, those who mourn.... And really suffering is multidimensional isn't it? Is it worse to be brain dead, or wealthy, heartless and lonely? We are all suffering. We are all incredibly blessed but often don't/won't recognize it. I would rather suffer for a positive outcome for both myself and those around me, than suffer unwillingly for--potentially still the good of others--the destruction of myself in negativity toward God, who if He is real, and I confess that He is, knows what He is doing as the creator of life. If He were evil, no good could come from Him. But instead I see good. And the evil I trust He will attend to in perfection in His timing. He is patient for us to turn to Him. He could effectively bring the end of this life now and give everyone what they deserve. I suffered intense agony giving birth to my kids. Totally worth that suffering and more. The suffering can't be compared to the joy. Romans 8:18 "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us." Suffering vs a life born.... They're not even in the same category. There's nothing to even compare. I just offer these as my thoughts/wonderings and not as an authority. But I wanted to suggest it as an answer to the question, "what do the sufferers get out of it" because I think it's a legitimate question. If am not in line with scripture, I pray that it will be evident and that I will also learn of it.
God did not create suffering!! Suffering entered Gods creation through our sin, we call this the fall. Consequently, we are imperfect due to our own sin and suffering is present in the world. God hates suffering which is why he sent Jesus to pay the punishment we deserved for our own sin so that we can be seen blameless in Gods sight. Therefore, we can enter heaven where there will be no suffering!
@@oswaldcobblepot502 This does not line up with what the Bible says! God created a good world however we humans sinned, which brought suffering into the world. God is just and wrongdoings have to be payed for, yet in his loving mercy God did not reject us as we deserved. He sent his son to suffer and die in our place so that our relationship with God could be restored. Jesus rose again, and through that same power we can as well and join God in a place where there is not suffering. Clearly God hates suffering. Jesus did not enjoy the cross and God’s plan is for those who follow him to suffer no more.
"Thus says The Holy One, your Redeemer: Beloved, My treasure, My most beloved ones, here I am! Hear Me! I am poured out like wax before the fire; like a candle, I am dripping with tears! Yet you have not come to Me! My love was poured out, My spirit fell like rain upon the nations... Tears and great mourning... I poured Myself out to heal the nations! Blood and tears, pools of blood, the agony of My passion, My love put on open display! Yet who is healed in My love? Where is the harvest among the nations, according to the latter rain? It withers, blighted wheat waning in the heat of the noonday sun, planted in the hard and cracked ground, revealing the broken roots thereof; the rains have ceased and are withheld from the land, the hand of The Holy One removed. Captive children, held fast by the pride and arrogance of men whose hearts remain far from Me, shackled to a world of bitter enmity against God and His Messiah, refusing My Letters of Love, stopping your ears to My voice... Weeping and many tears... I had set you free! Behold, I have freely given! I have not ceased from calling to you through My spirit and by the pen of My prophets, yet you will not listen, nor will you give heed! Even you, O churches of men, will in no wise hear Me, nor are you able! - Arrogant assemblies! DEAF CHILDREN! Bitter children, amiss in your dealings with Me, I love you, yet you refuse Me still In favor of your own way!... Peoples of this world, and all pastors And teachers and leaders among men, You are forsaken, given up to the fire... The fires of My own correction, The harsh discipline of The Father, The day of refinement and tears. I love you, yet you have not known Me; neither do I see of Myself in you... Our hearts torn. For I see your hearts, beloved, I see and know. Behold, I have searched, and have not found even one tittle of that which is of Me! Cry out, therefore! Call out to your Savior! Call upon your Maker in My name! DIE TO YOURSELVES! Forsake this world and run to Me through the fire, and I shall abide with you in the heat of its burning, until that which must be done is finished and you emerge purified. Humble yourselves! Cast yourselves down! I am your Father! I LOVE YOU! Yet you have departed from Me, wasting your inheritance in a world of unbridled sin, a world which even now hates you, a world which you have loved more than Me, even yourselves! And so I have written to you page after page by the pen of My prophets, shouting to you by all manner of speaking and devices, calling to you across the ages, speaking to THIS generation with many tears and much sorrow, warning you of My wrath which must come and is now here and shall quickly overtake this world. And still you push out the hand! Do you not understand?! I have seen it; nothing escapes My eye! Churches of men, I have seen it! Modern Pharisees, you fight against Me! You fight against The God of your fathers, The One and Only True God! And whatsoever you do to even one of these I have sent to you, whether in word or by deed, you have done it to Me!... Yet I love you still... My heart is torn, a rent which widens, a rent which you have made! Why do you tear yourselves from Me?! For apart from Me, you can do nothing! Apart from Me is darkness, thick darkness and death! The time has passed, beloved ones; My bride is chosen and the first election is made; the bundles are prepared and set in their places. Therefore I tell you, when you look for Me in the Day, look no more to yourselves, nor in man-made churches; behold, they shall all be torn down! For in them I have not dwelled... I dwell in the hearts of men! And when darkness has fallen and your tears well up, a bitter rain brought forth from a heart severely broken, from a spirit crushed by the weight of realization, run and seek out My beacons, My witnesses. For they shall lead you through the fire, and I shall abide with you, accompanying you on your journey... A journey of service and great hardship, of many tears and great sorrows, suffering on every side; a journey of love and hope in the midst of great adversity, the end of which shall bring a great multitude into My love, with every servant washing the feet of his neighbor until death comes and sets you free; caught up into My love, healed in an instant, refashioned in glory, remade in My image, partaking of My life fully. For as many as I love, I rebuke and chasten, Bringing forth much thanksgiving To the praise of My glory... As it is written, so shall it be done... Therefore trust in My ways, For I am The King alone; Apart from Me, there is nothing at all." trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Captive_Children_%28a_Lamentation%29
Well because it's deserved that there is suffering, the problem is that the people who deserve it aren't the ones suffering. So the question arises if God is good then how does He not punish those who deserve suffering and let others suffer. That's simple. It's so that the people who see the suffering or are suffering punish those who are deserving. (So that people can do something for Him, and do something about it.) And to discern who is His (who upholds the laws of righteousness and His ways and wants and works for what is right.) That is to say, that there is a reason why people suffer and are in situations like homelessness and poverty and that it's not really always them who got themselves there but someone else, who is being of perdition and solitude to ruling people by debt. And because there is free will, it happens that these things come about due to the nature of man who is corrupt, and unbelieving, who has wronged people and further orchestrated that those people should be stuck in a suffering situation where it is imposed that they accept wickedness. Which they perpetuate in order to try to make themselves look good to people when really they are using indifference and debt based servitude to control people into wickedness to protect their ill gotten/stolen gains and multiply their wealth, further through said system of debt based slavery.
Kevin Burress God does punish those who deserve it. Eternal punishment. Jesus suffered and Died yet did no wrongs. You are looking at what happens on earth. Look at what happens for Eternity.
@@danasmith1165 Mathematically no one deserves eternal punishment, one does not deserve eternal punishment for a lifetime of crime, no matter how big those crimes as the eternity of the punishment will deliver retribution that exacts justice and then more so that it no longer becomes justice but rather cruelty
As a person who completely understands, i pray you have found the strength to carry on. We all have our own cross to bear my friend. And as men and women of faith, carry our own cross we must. Without fail, and without hesitation.
God the Creator does all things well..I don't have issue with the why suffering? issue..PAPA is as much Glorified in Wrath and Judgement as He is in Mercy and Grace.. what I have issues about is why He has given any (especially me) one millisecond of enjoyment in spite of my deep hatred of His Light and Love.. the Truth Suffered and He did not do anything wrong..Glorious God so Patient with my sin
William, you're an idiot. If God hates us humans because of our sins, it isn't *us* that He enjoys. He obviously must enjoy our punitive and other suffering -- *that's* why He creates us.
20july1944 No he did not create us to satisfy him through suffering. We are failed creation, we were supposed to be the perfect creation in God’s eyes.
@@xalpacazeu1332 God had caused us to fail by four actions: 1. The fact that he created us, with some who would have chosen to rather stay in oblivion 2. The fact that he created us with our flaws, we are very far from perfect, our moral values are often incorrect and our willpower is not strong enough to reaide by those values. 3. He planted the tree which held the fruit of good and evil. Why, knowing that we are prone to temptation, knowing that we will fall to that temptation has he created what will cause us to fail? 4. He let Satan into the garden of Eden. It is a foolish prospect to let the father of temptation who is said to have turned a third of heavens angels to his side to tempt humans. Of course we will fail had god not known that we would fail? We are only human and God knew this.
A difficult lesson for me is that "Suffering is both a reminder and a guide. It stimulates us to better adapt ourselves to our environmental conditions, and thus leads the way to self-improvement. In every suffering one can find a meaning and a wisdom. But it is not always easy to find the secret of that wisdom." ~ ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Baha'i Faith
Romans 8:31-39 Nothing Can Separate Us from God’s Love 31 What shall we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us? 32 Since he did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won’t he also give us everything else? 33 Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one-for God himself has given us right standing with himself. 34 Who then will condemn us? No one-for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God’s right hand, pleading for us. 35 Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? 36 (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”[a]) 37 No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us. 38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[b] neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow-not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below-indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. ◄ John 3:16 ► New International Version For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Do you have answers geared towards those who are not yet followers of Jesus? This answer is very inadequate when trying to persuade someone of God's goodness.
Gen 1:26, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; // Man steals, lies, murders, and seeks self gratification. . . . . . God on the other hand steals, (John 11:10, Mat 25:28, Mr 4:24), he lies (Mr 9:23, Mr 11:24, Mat 21:22), he murders (Mat 7:23, Luke 19:27), and seeks self gratification (Rev 1:8). So when it comes right down to it, we were designed by a God who made us just like he is. Man does what God wants him to do out of fear, not love. But then, God has never said what he wants us to do, and has left us on our own accord, and to think on our own, so he judges us. So how can God be a sovereign God and allow suffering? It's because he is not the kind loving God that everyone has come to believe. What he has done or allowed to be done, he is also doing to himself so he can repair the issues at a time he chooses (if he does at all), and then proclaim to be a wonderful God that no one can stand up to. The only reason a person believes he is a kind and wonderful God is because they have been taught to think so and to keep quiet. Otherwise, millions of people would tell God to take a hike, because most people are fed up with the I AM GOD thing, and the lies of him giving to those who have faith or believe. The truth is, MOST people are afraid to tell it like it is because they fear being punished. Doesn't this sound like abuse, and not love? The fear of God is the hate of evil, but apparently even if that evil comes from God himself. Proverbs 8:13.
j c: I'm sorry you're sick of this question, because it is a profound contradiction in our idea of God's nature. I think the key question is "whose suffering does God alleviate?" Another important one is "why create the nightmare to begin with, if God is good?"
Wouldn't you prefer being a better person without someone else's suffering? My sanctificatio. If helping the person who lives with enormous physical or mental pain is for my benefit, for my sanctification then I don't think it's a good reason. The person doesn't deserve to suffer, the prise for my sanctification is to high in tat case! I don't believe it is a good explanation. What father would let his child suffer and stand by and watch in order to make his other child learn how to help and thus become a better person! Ahat a moral mess! Eg. A father sees his little son has fallen from the high tree and has a broken leg, there is the second son playing nearby. Will the father stand ter and wait till his sevond son go and help his brother? Will he just observe how a boy is struggling to do something? I guess we would call that kind od father cruel. I think what a real father would do is this: he would run to his child immediately and help him on his own. Because he is bigger, stronger, knoe what to do and is able to help. If he wants his other son to bexome a better person he will always find a way to trach him.
On the Calvinist view, God does not "allow" anything. He causes everything. As Grudem writes in his Systematic Theology, God is the "primary cause" of everything that happens.
Bryan Jacobs -- God does Not cause everything. Is God causing murderers to murder? If your god is doing that then your god is satan. My God, Jesus, allows evil for a time. He Never causes any bad things to happen.
@@danasmith1165 I agree with you. God is not the "cause" of evil nor does he control evil for his purposes. The Devil is the "cause" of evil and does what he does..."causes" pain and suffering and death. Not God. God can "allow" or "disallow" the Devil in doing what the Devil does. God is pure and holy, and their is no evil in his nature. Let us not forget GOD IS LOVE. Now, God does display wrath and punishment against those who disobey Him, which is the justice and judgement of God.
Do yall not realize that the bible is only a claim? It's not the infallible word of God because it would be INDISPUTABLE but its not Its a really good BULLSHIT STORY?
Sin is an act of offence against God n injuring others will be forgiven if u repent n believe Jesus died 4 ur sins n arose frm the tomb on the 3rd day. C ' repentance' in Google!!,".....
So God ruins someone's life and makes them brain dead so that people can help them and make themselves feel good about themselves? That makes no sense.
@@567xd so God might make me brain dead, and leave my children without a mother, for the sole purpose of allowing someone else to feed me and wipe up my shit? Yeah no. Doesn't make sense
You forgot to consider -sin -sinful nature -the devil Perhaps go to the website that the video asked you to go visit. The video said that you should visit a site that explains suffering on the macro level. So here's my counter question: Are you even thinking? Or are you using your emotions to react without rationalising to what this video has said?
meow at the same time, this video gives an incomplete answer. It gives the role of a Christian in this. It is not the reason for the question, and did not answer the question. I suggest looking for theologians like John Lennox and William Lane Craig. They give some decent answers. But honestly, the bible gives the best answers. The reason for why Christians are bad at answering things is the fact that they do not read the bible. So I encourage you, to read the bible, properly. Get a study bible. Another good channel is the bible project. They give you a good bunch of videos summarising the bible. Well. I hope you take me seriously. Go check them out.
meow perhaps thats missing the point, and the greater point is that unfairness happens to people in this life, but we have a duty to help them and not abandon them
