Having the displeasure of listening to Keyshawn on this show, it's pretty easy to see that he can't grasp what Max is saying. Keyshawn is textbook moron.
You can just tell theyre not listening to understand max’s point, but only to disagree. I feel like ive seen this a few times, the chemistry of these 3 are weird when it happens
Because Magic while he won’t win you can make a case for the greatest player ever. That’s why he’s definitely better than wilt he went to more finals than Jordan and I think the same as Lebron only in 9 less season
@@antibrotha I got Magic ahead of LeBron but doesn't change that during the 80s & 90s no one talked about him as the GOAT. It just didn't happen besides maybe delusional Lakers fans like with Kobe. It just shows how LeBron's case has been hype drom the start. People tried to say because LeBron averaged 1 or 2 more assists & rebounds than Jordan and scored more than Magic it made him better when LeBron was The System since Day 1, he was a UsageSlut from the start, and slow out of shape babyfat White Euros have been putting up better numbers seasons than LeBron ever did and even little guys like Harden & Westbrook who put up the triple-double seasons so many LeBron Lames used to say LeBron would put up someday.
I agree totally lol. Max nailed it and didn't have to explain it a million times. I would also have Magic, Bird, Kobe (and Duncan, Steph, Shaq) in 6-11 range, in some order
@@culifabrizio1479 I can’t believe you watched the whole video and that was your conclusion. Insane take. Bucket 1 = the players most argued over the years to be the GOAT. As Max said, GOAT cases for Magic, Bird and Kobe were rare. Anyone being genuine about this can see he got the right 5. Original GOAT talk was Wilt v Bill. Then came Kareem. Then MJ in the late 80s, then Bron. To this day, these 5 names still get argued commonly depending who you ask. Rarely does anyone argue anyone else as the GOAT.
Key really been getting on my nerves as of late, the continued disrespect for Jokic calling him boring to watch etc, coupled with his obvious bias towards the lakers it’s getting really tiring
I’m sorry to say it but the guy is just not the sharpest tool in the shed. He really has a hard time following arguments and most certainly struggles to build his own. He just simply agrees with everything Jay says.
@Shaquille C. - Owe No Man Anything yea but I think that's what key and jay are tryna say but not max ... even with those guys careers being ended, those 5 in bucket one have an argument for the "goat"
It is incredible how J and Key (especially) don't get the list. It is so straightforward. Yes Magic is an all-time great, but he was never considered the GOAT of the NBA. Heck, it wasn't until the mid-80s when he was considered the best player on his team. He may have had a better case if his career wasn't cut short. If you go through the eras the talk of GOAT was between Wilt and Russell, and then Wilt, Russell, and Kareem. Then the 90s we added Jordan. Now Lebron is in the debate with all his accolades and records.
Wrong. Magic was considered the best on his team already in 1982. He was higher than Kareem in the mvp voting that year. Magic was clearly the best player on that 80's lakers team.
@@emil2683 You're right. I thought that it was 83 when they won that 2nd championship, but it was 82 (that's why I said mid-80s), but yeah, without question by that point that he was the best player on that team by the 2nd chip.
@@emil2683 he was the best player on the 80s team. WHAT does that have to do with the argument?? Even if he was the unanimous best player in the WORLD he would still be bucket 2. Bucket 1 is for people who had a case to be the GOAT AT SOME POINT, NOT best player in the world.
@@winonafrog It must be frustrating for Max to talk to these guys. Max is just too logical lol. Although, I dont agree with a lot of his takes, at least he gives you some logical argument.
Max is 💯 correct on the bucket separation. What i think Max is wrong on is Tim Duncan being that low. Tim went thru 3 different eras and super teams and won in all
Key derailed this conversation from the jump without even understanding what Max said. The distinction Max made was a good one, but even if Key did disagree it wasn't central to the Jokic discussion which they never even got to in this clip. Also, he should really try to wrap his mind around the notion that people can know things about history even if they weren't alive at the time. Key is like the kid in class who thinks who wrote a great essay, but gets and F because he didn't answer the question in the prompt.
@@roychavez2167 It was not important for the discussion! Hence Max telling production to add the two buckets in the graphic. If magic was 6 or 3 or 1 it was irrelevant to the Jokic conversation. Try again after you reread the assignment.
curry over big fundamental is so crazy 😭 Edit: For casuals- 5x NBA champion 3x Finals MVP 2x MVP 15x All Star 8x NBA All Defensive First Team 7x NBA All Defensive Second Team Rookie Of The Year The ONLY thing curry has on Duncan is 3 point shot. Btw Curry still gotta make 6k points to pass on Duncan in scoring, even with all those 3's and I will not even talk about defense cuz thats something thats not even comparable. The disrespect to Timmy is disgusting.
It's really close, but Curry changed the game while Duncan played his role very well. His success was already paved for him when he got drafted by the Spurs. David Robinson, Avery Johnson, Sean Elliott. Sorta like Magic.
Duncan always underrated because he didn't have the flash and played in San Antonio his entire career. They're so caught on Magic but Duncan has a better case to be top 5
If Jokic was American he would be No 1 of all time...Here in Serbia we are laughing to this clowns and people like you. Look at numbers....You did ...ok ....Be quiet now.
I would not have Steph (or Kobe really) over Tim Duncan. I’m not putting bill Russel there either. They also leave d Wade off this list in bucket 3 when he’s pretty much 15. Joker needs rings to get in any of these lists. Multiple. 1 gets you in conversation for bucket 3. He’s immediately over Dirk. He should be next to Giannis somewhere. Top 25 - 30. But with all them MVPs a second chip catapults him to top 15 ish. Then a third has us looking pretty hard at how close we are to cracking top 10. Joker is very far from that range though. That’s like Duncan bird Shaq etc.
Well you know Max went to Columbia, and these guys obviously weren't that smart to begin with. Then had a lot of head injuries, lmfao. They're probably well below the average human IQ now, Because I've never seen such a crystal clear argument be so badly misunderstood lmfao. The average person would understand it instantly
Key is starting to really get annoying now. Obviously what Max is saying is that if some people felt Magic was the best player to ever live it would be as small a group as those who argue Kobe is the best player to ever live. Yes some people think that but over all basketball fans, players and media never made the argument that Magic was the GOAT. Instead of key listening to hear he is listening to respond. Basically put Bucket 1 is reserved for the GOAT debate players and Buckets 2 is reserved for great all time players but they were never in the GOAT debate.
Everyone gets in their feelings when Max tries to put up a list. Just let him create his own podcast and gain the right audience for his brand of content. I'd watch that being livestreamed in the morning instead of KJM tbh
But the father of a friend of my uncle thought Magic was the goat in 1988 so there were SOME people who thought of him as te goat so you're wrong Max! Got you!
Out of all the all time lists i've seen in these shows, this one was one of the most logical and well thought out ones... and it ended in a discussion of pedantics.. without actually discussing the whole point of the list. It's hard to watch sometimes.
Bird was considered better by most people in the '80s. He was winning three straight MVPs during Magic's prime. Magic wasn't even rookie of the Year, he didn't even lead his team in assist until his third year. And Kareem was the best player on that team up until 84. If he wasn't even there closer. Kareem and worthy were their closer. So I get that. Magic is great, but I think being part of the Lakers overrates players a slight bit. Because not even Kobe's better than bird. Two completely different levels
Magic and Kobe each had 5. Bird only got 3. Sure Magic played with Kareem and Kobe got Shaq, but Bird also played on loaded teams too. Head to head, Magic beat Bird in college and was 2-1 in the Finals. Bird was a far superior scorer or shooter than Magic, but Magic was the only player who could dominate with taking a shot. Magic > Bird
You clearly are not familiar with the politics of basketball during the 80s. It was still a very overtly racist place. Larry Bird was a great player but there was A LOT of privilege going on with him that cannot be ignored.
Some times key and Jay Will purposely go out of their way to disagree with Max. Max's totally right that there was never no mass media consensus debate about magic being the GOAT. Then Keys dumbazz be like ' so you're saying magic was trash' NO MR THICK SKULL
Dirk and Giannis are the only 2 guys in bucket 3 with both a regular season MVP and Finals MVP. If Jokic gets the chip and finals MVP he'll be right there with those guys
Guess it matters if you’re talking greatest or best of all time. Jokic is no doubt a top 20 best player of all time, wouldn’t be surprised if he ends in top 10 territory along with Giannis, but greatness takes a long time to achieve.
Just because Curry gave up #1 option for 3 years to get 2 more rings (almost 3), he was still putting up the numbers. Don't mess with the greatest shooter of All Time in an era where teams take 40% of their shots from three.
Max is right… Keyshawn is sensitive to ANY Laker conversation fr. He doesn’t understand playing styles and impact like Magic is straight where he’s at.
He’s on the verge of setting records there sport. Triple doubles in one of them. His career is still in progress and he’s NOT slowing down either ;) Enjoy
I'll never understand why Max had Kevin Durant ranked so high. And how he'll bring up the collapse of 73-9 but completely forget about OKC's blown 3-1 lead
@@JimBrave-ri1oc he didn’t cheat, he just games the system the way others should have like Barkley and Stockton. No one bitched when other HOFers jumped to other teams to ring chase
@@JimBrave-ri1oc cheated the salary cap? Mix in some oxygen with that copium when you breathe fam. They didn’t cheat the salary cap 😂 Steph was on a favorable deal still, and the cap jumped from the CBA that summer creating a perfect opportunity. No one has ever cheated the cap, that might be the single dumbest thing I’ve heard in a comment section
Lol he has KD ranked way too low, best scorer of all time and best player on two historically great championship teams, get out of here with your silly immature takes
@@selfishstockton6123 exactly. Including LeBron, who might have become the perennial loser if he had stayed in Cleveland the first time and not jumped over to the Heat to play with a proven winner and one of the best SG's of all time to help him get his first ring. And then jumping ship again once he saw Wade was getting old.
@@PurpleMonkeyDishwasher88 They're close imo. His 2 rings in '09/'10 without Shaq put him up there. Pau was nice, but not a superstar and it was basically a bunch of role players from there. Spurs had Parker and Ginobili in their prime, plus Pop. Kobe had the edge as a leader. I'd prob lean Duncan too overall, but it's debatable. Both top 10
@@brooksorlando4881 Pau was not a superstar, but he was an All-NBA player during the stretch when they were heading to the finals and an All-Star. Plus Pau was the defensive anchor for that team, before he came along, they were in the bottom half of the league in defense. I'd also say that Pop and Phil Jackson cancel each other out when it comes to coaching. Though it is really close. Definitely top-10, for sure.
All Max is saying is that conversations like the Lebron and Jordan argument is in a different tier than the other dudes. That ain't crazy, therefore I don't understand how they can't grasp it
The critique wasn’t that he’s placed 6th, the criticism was that he’s in a tier/bucket 2 list instead of the first tier, which is where he belongs. Magic created the Showtime Lakers that the whole world has come to love. He’s definitely tier 1 with the other top five guys. Btw, Max’s list has three centers on there which is kinda weird seeing that there are five positions. Shouldn’t the top five be reserved for the five positions in basketball?
@@dacloffeblack I think Kobe and Tim Duncan are better than Magic but yet you don’t see me complaining and whining.. 🤷🏻♂️ comes down to personal opinions, and this is Max’s opinion. just like you have your own opinion.
Plus the skillset Magic had, a lot of players in the modern era is better, it only makes sense as the game becomes better. Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, are just some of the names I can come up on just the top of my head.
You can tell how annoyed Max is by Key deducing his argument into the most simplistic form. You have never seen a segment in media where Magic is being considered the greatest ever in COMPARISON to the other players on Max’s Top 5-that’s the point.
As someone who has been following the league closely for over 30 years, Magic has never had anything beyond a very fringe support as being the GOAT. Kareem was the better player for the first half of his career, Bird was better than him among his peers in the middle and Jordan had passed him within a couple of years of retiring. Throw in Wilt and Russell at that point and it just wasn't a discussion. Similar to Kobe and Bird. Kobe wasn't as good as Shaq or Duncan and then LeBron wiped him out. Max has absolutely nailed the buckets, I'd personally say Duncan is actually the guy with the best case of being in bucket 1 of that whole group. He won more, was the clear best guy for his team the entire time and was the best player in the league for a solid 5-8 year window after Shaq and before Bron. To be clear, I think he's in bucket 2 though as no one is arguing him over those other 5 either, no one reasonable at least.
Duncan wasn't all that great statistically though. Those Spurs teams were great teams top to bottom, and he had one of the greatest coaches of all time.
@@lionstigersbearsohmyanimal6741 That's stupid. You know nothing about the Spurs. Deepest bench in the league and unselfish play, that's why they won so much. Stop looking at the star players only ya casual.
Kobe was the unanimous player of the decade in 2000s and I think that was voted before his title in 2010 Tim Duncan was the 16th leading scorer of the 2000s he has no case over Kobe other then team success which the Spurs were great in 90s pre Duncan and almost won the title in 2017 by basically cutting Duncan off the roster
@@lorddevil863 Wade and Barkley won MVPs, Wade also won multiple titles, first one as best Miami player, CP won nothing either on individual or team level, so lets go there
how are Wade and Kawhi underrated? 😂 anyone who knows the history can easily rattle off 25 players they’d put in front of either one of them that’s not even mentioning Kawhi’s first FMVP is almost as fraudulent as Iguodala’s
Key & Jay definitely misconstrued what Maxx said & I actually agree w/ everything he said: Those 5 guys in bucket 1 have been a part of the GOAT discussion, all of the bucket 2 guys have been referred to as the best player at that time but was never considered the GOAT.. it’s plenty of guys who were the best player in the league but it’s only a handful who can say they’re the GOAT
Top 20 are all mvp caliber guys many of which with multiple championships. We’re not talking about Iverson, KG, Charles Barkley. No. You get into the top 20 by being great. You get into the top 20 by winning while being great and literally removing other greats from there. 1 ring isn’t top 20. Even with multiple mvps. It’s top 25 ish… he’s better than like Dirk. Top 20 is like 15-20. Thats like KD d Wade or curry before his 4th ring. 1 ring ain’t enough
@@SebDogginn-380 I mean you can tell yourself that. He’s on that trajectory for sure. Just enjoy the process…. However there is a process. One ring ain’t enough to skip the line. Sorry
@@dewman7477 I think Dirk is just outside the top 20 but in my top 25. I think Joker would be in my top 20 bc I think he’s better than Dirk and then he would have the accolades to match too. Maybe….
This conversation is silly. These top 20 have solidified a complete career of work. Not saying he isn’t peeking as a top player, but you cannot compare half a career to hall of fame careers already established.
Max must be commended for how well he deals with blatant stupidity from Key and willful ignorance from Jay. It's actually crazy how much they try to tag-team him when he's making valid points they are unable to comprehend.
I'm with Max on this one, but I get what Keyshawn's saying. Max's point is the consensus over the past few decades revolves around MJ, LeBron, and Kareem being in the discussion on who is THE greatest player of all time. What's flawed in what Max is saying is being amplified by Keyshawn in stating during the 80s maybe there were discussions of Magic being the greatest of all time. In my opinion, Max is right, as great as Magic was, he isn't top 5 of all time, but definitely the best PG of all-time and the top 10 greatest players to play this sport.
Magic was never considered the greatest of all time. It was clearly Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain at the time. He never surpassed these two in achievements so who is considering him the greatest all the while having kareem as his team mate ?
@@ROCKBETHENAME They 100% were saying they were. Russell's 11 championships was definitely putting him in that convo. Wilt's unreal statistics (including an 100 point game and 55 rebound game) put him in it as well.
Steph over Duncan is just straight up idiocy. One is one of the greatest defensive players of all-time while the other is a liability and useless 50% of the entire game. Also, Key is an idiot, but people have definitely argued at one point that Magic is a potential GOAT. Definitely over Russell. No one has thought Bill was the GOAT. Sure, they talked about his titles, but no one has thought to be the best basketball player.
They (Magic and Duncan) were spoon fed the moment they got in the league. Not saying they had a choice, but you can't denied the fact it made it easier playing with an already Top 75 player of all time. Plus Curry is just so offensively talented in the Warriors system, any time he plays good defense is a bonus.
@lorddevil863 what?? Curry has received more help than anyone in history. He's played with an MVP, two Finals MVP, a DPOY, and one of the greatest coaches of all-time. Most of his seasons he's had 5 or more current or former all-stars on his team.
@@JACQUEZJOHNSON23 But who won it without another superstar? Well Duncan but besides him everybody else didnt win by themselves. Jordan never made it past first round without Pipen. Kobe needed Shaq and Pau to get past first round. Nobody won it by themselves. Its a team sport
I will say, hats off to Max for getting the top 5 bucket right. Obviously the order of those 5 can change depending on people's preferences but Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, Russell, and Wilt are clearly the only guys in the GOAT conversation and I'm glad to see it's grouped correctly. Bucket 2 is where things went wrong, but I guess it's expected. There is no reason to have Duncan behind Kobe, Bird, Shaq, and Steph. Steph ahead of Duncan is one of the most egregious mistakes anyone can make on these lists.
@@JimBrave-ri1oc It's really sad that you have to like your own comments to make yourself feel better. You are just spouting nonsense now and I can't fix stupid. I pity you.
A lot of these lists have bias. Magic should never be ahead of Bird, he wasnt better than Bird until he fell apart essentially. Hakeem and Duncan, 2 of the most well rounded players and stout defenders ever, should both be around 5-7. They're easily ahead of Magic, but that Lakers bias runs deep. In reality that 7-12 range with players like Hakeem, Bryant, Steph, Shaq, and Wilt is where Magic should be. My top 5 would be Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, Russel, Duncan. Duncan was 1 shot away from being 6-0 in the finals, and arguably 4 times finals MVP. The bottom 5 is where it gets iffy. I'd go Bird, Hakeem, Bryant, Magic, Shaq, Steph. Wilt, in my opinion, should be heavily taxed for being a 7'0 Russel Westbrook (statpadding loser) whilst being just as dominant, if not more than Shaq. 11-15 is less clear.
Duncan has zero case as a better player over Kobe as a individual player your going off team success same with Bill Russell both are bottom of top 10-12 for me Kobe’s prime 14 years from 1999-2013 is as good as anyones in history 28 5 and 5 in the reg season/playoffs 5 rings 7 appearances and was unanimous player of the decade of the 2000s not Duncan who was the 16th leading scorer of a decade not a good look there yes he was great defender but so was Kobe who is 1st all time for guards All defensive team
@@davis2k1234 The fact that you say Duncan has 0 case when he is clearly ahead of Kobe in rankings means this conversation probably won't go anywhere. First, we're not debating whether Kobe is an all timer. He's around the 9 - 12 best player all time. The dude was insanely great. Second, Duncan has 1 more regular season MVP, 1 more finals MVP, was the best player on 5 finals team compared to 3 for Kobe, and Duncan never had a choke job as bad as Kobe's 2004 finals. Those are huge factors in determining their all time rank. Third, the NBA it's not a 1 on 1 game. It's a 5 on 5 game. Duncan easily could have dominated more individually but understood the importance of empowering his teammates. It unfortunately took Kobe longer to realize that. You must be in the same group to takes Westbrook over Curry, Embiid over Jokic, etc.
@@todoroki4418 Kawhi doesn't have more valuable championships. His first he was a roleplayer averaging 12.8ppg in the regular season and 14.3ppg in the playoffs. His second was impressive but it was against a severely injured finals opponent.
If this is a question, than is Giannis top 20 already since he more accomplished than Jokic and there the same age?🤔 me personally I don’t think Giannis is there yet, I have him top 25-30
Stop the disrespect. If Giannis retired tomorrow he’d have multiple All NBA first teams, Defensive First Teams, MIP, DOPY, 2 MVP’s, Finals MVP, and a Ring not to mention numerous accolades. I understand if he’s not your favorite player but there are Top 75 players that don’t have half of these accolades
Barkley, Karl Malone, Jokic ....bucket 3 easily , with or without title. Not easy to win the ring if No.1 on this list plays in the same time at your prime...its individual award be the best player disregarding the team quality.
The level of competition for centers is NOT THERE..ITS ONLY 2 CENTERS IN THE LEAGUE..SO with that being said,he will have to win more rings.lets say 4 all together
@tnoyce9632 They can't say he's the top dog until he win atleast 3..And like I said he isn't playing against the same caliber of centers..No way he top 10 yet
That is very true. His ability to score, assist, as well as shoot from range is something no other center has ever been able to do. I do agree though if Tim Duncan isn't in the top with all he accomplished then no way Jokic making it without more rings
Curry averages 27.0, 6.2 assists and 5.3 rebounds. Duncan barely averages 20 points at 20.6, 11.4 rebounds and 3 assists. I take the best shooter ever.
I think he is trying to say it depends on how long Jokic's prime is going to be. You can't be top 20 if are you great for 3 years out of your 15 years in the NBA.
I’m a Lakers fan, but Key seems to forget that Magic had the nickname Tragic Johnson and wasn’t even the greatest player on his team until late in his career. Being listed as the 6th greatest player of all time doesn’t make you a slouch. Magic’a career was tragically cut short, maybe if he played a 15-20 year career he would be in that convo but unfortunately he didn’t
That’s a bad argument. If we disregard his Wizards seasons, both magic and MJ played 13 seasons. And Mj didn’t win his first ring till 5 years into HIS career. Yet nobody would ever say MJ is 6th best. It’s all about how much winning you achieve
@@selfishstockton6123 I mean if you’re going to disregard MJ’s Wizards years you have to disregard Magics last year in LA in 1996. But that doesn’t change the fact that he earned the Tragic johnson nickname. Magic played with Kareem which helped and hampered his legacy. MJ had Scottie but if he had Kareem we would be having a completely different conversation. MJ always delivered when he made it to the finals
Are they listening to Max point 😂 Magic couldn’t be considered the greatest ever if you played with Kareem who was above him when he came in and still was above Magic once he retired
