How Close to the Truth is Six The Musical? (Part 1) 

I see Jane's alternative ending as her love for Edward is so great she would never consider another possibility where she doesn't meet Henry and gives birth to Edward.

@@bessieburnet9816 I think that is a really interesting interpretation! I had never thought about it that way before.

I am glad that you added the note about your comments on Jane's happy ending. Her happy ending does provide variety as you said, but also because there is nothing inherently "un-feminist" or "anti-feminist" about getting married and having a family.

Where did you find the BBC interview of Catherine and Henry at 4:33?

Good to see you mention the fact that Henry threatened to kill Jane Seymour prior to her pregnancy. It is often overlooked. Also, I take exception with the theme that Catherine never said anything about Henry cheating on her. She did say a few things which caused her father, Ferdinand, to instruct her to stop.

While Anne and Henry definitely weren't in attendance at Catherine's funeral, there are several contemporary reports of Anne (and, in one, also Henry) wearing yellow in response to the announcement of Catherine's passing. These accounts also seem to support Anne having been verbally relieved at the news, (though what exactly was said varies from account to account,) which makes sense insofar as her perceived validity as queen was challenged in part by Catherine's popularity. It was likely a snub, and there's definitely reason to believe it happened given that only one contemporary source was staunchly anti-Anne. But it definitely would have been amped up not just by Henry, but of Anne's critics, and the remaining vocal Catholics!

Wait really? Wow i actually didn' know that

Not to the funeral, no, but she DID wear yellow when she learned that KOA had died.

@@meginmd COA *

@@erint520 yellow is a color of mourning in Spain. Anne did wear yellow but it was as a sign of respect. Edit opp just got to that part of the video haha

At the very least, it's a good way to get people interested in the real lives and history of these women.

That has the same effect as Hamilton. Hamilton wasn’t accurate but it was a way to interest kids

Exacly! :D

I am in LOVE with your pfp. Glad to see another multi fangirl😆

@@chaoticjoy3401 Yeah, theatre kids and book nerds, unite!

cleves or boleyn?

But anne boleyn is such a queen

@@88phantasmagoria cleve’s name is anna, not anne so it’s boleyn

I mean, all Queen's personalities are just exaggerations of their specific circumstances.

I agree, especially at the part where she basically admitted to flirting with other men to make Henry jealous, something the real Anne would never do . Everyone and their moms know that Anne Boleyn was framed, and that the only reason Henry beheaded her was because she failed to give him a son. I have a headcanon that the only reason Six!Anne admitted to cheating on Henry (even when she never did) was because she knew it would give her a greater chance at winning the competition. They were competing on who had the saddest life, right? Well she saw how the crowd didn't really pity Aragon that much and mostly just hyped her up because she kept speaking out against Henry. So, in order to get people to feel sorry for her, she just straight up admitted to the charges placed against her and went "but I didn't have a choice tho🥺". And that decision completely changed her narrative. Most of her portrayals in media falsely depict her as this scheming temptress who purposely ruined Catherine of Aragon and Princess Mary Tudor's lives. A queen whose own greed ended up getting her burned like a moth drawn to the flame of Henry VIII. She *knew* she was a controversial queen, and she used that to her advantage. The real Anne Boleyn was by no means an airhead, but when the queens finished singing her dramatic intro and then the song cuts to her laughing hysterically like a goof, she was able to completely subvert people's expectations of her and managed to get them to think "yo, maybe this chick wasn't the schemer we thought she was". And just like that, all the preconceived notions the crowd had of her were successfully erased, and she was now free to portray herself exactly the way she wants to be portrayed: no longer the king's great whore, but the king's victim everyone should feel sorry for Was I reading too much into Anne's song? Probably, but thank you for coming to my Ted talk lmao. Anyways, y'all better stAnne Boleyn and stream "Don't Lose Ur Head" for clearer skin💅✨

and we all know what that means

@@88phantasmagoria lol

Rude-

@@strwberry_xoxo ikr

Depends , early 40s is a bit early for menapouse :/

I think it is referring to an actual family because of the "Tudor Von Trapps" referencing the many children in the Sound of Music. I felt her ending acknowledges an aspect of feminism that we often ignore, female choice...in a purely equal world, some women and men will still choose to have a family over career - so I actually like the inclusion of this because it implies women can choose either a solo career or a family band [as long as if they aren't forced to pick because of society or a husband]

@@piphowlett yes!! I literally came to comment this. Feminism includes the right choose whether or not you have children/a family. That is a part of feminism and just because it’s not the way feminism has traditionally been thought of doesn’t mean it doesn’t fit under the feminist lens of the rest of the show.

Very, VERY TRUE, feminism does include if you want have kids that isn't a bad thing. Just to add to all this why do you think Jane had more kids with Henry? She could of had them with someone else or adopted. The rest of the women's endings didn't get involved with him so why would she be different?

@@123hotbb honestly I don’t know and to your point she could have adopted/had kids with someone else. Perhaps because we know so little about her historically and the writers didn’t have much to go off. In the show she is portrayed as loving Henry, Heart of Stone is about how she’ll always love him and be there even when he’s at his worst. She won’t be moved, like stone. I feel like through her song and with her character it feels like she would have stayed with Henry had she not died of natural causes. Also, in reality he is the only queen buried with him at Windsor Castle so he must have loved her in whatever capacity he was capable of, even if partly because she was the only wife to provide him with a male heir. I also thought the choice of giving her an ending with Henry was an interesting one but I do think it makes some sense based on her solo song.

i thought the band WAS her family -

i get what youre saying, and youre ofc entitled to your opinion, but after what? over an hour? of having them "competing" with one another and apparently trying to outdo each other with their trauma, a small section and song at the end where they say 'this is stupid we shouldnt be fighting' doesnt really undo all that imo. especially when the whole thing plays like a genuine competition up until the last moment. like i understand it's supposed to be this twist but it to me it doesnt outweigh all that came before - the queens still sing about little else but their relationship with henry. the first song sets it up as if youll hear their 'real' stories, and as if they're trying to finally move out of henry's shadow, but for all that they remain squarely within it throughout the entire thing

@@francesca9423 i think theyre going for a satire approach ...

@@keane2160 if it’s satire it’s not very effective imo, since they play it all completely straight. satire is supposed to be mocking, and that doesn’t come across to me in any of the songs. Especially given that it’s presented as their ‘real’ stories from the beginning. It doesn’t work as satire if they say, here’s what _really_ happened and then expect people to take what comes next as anything less than an earnest attempt

@@francesca9423 the end is very much supposed to be pulling out the rug from underneath your feet. it is set up like a competition until the last possible moment because they are trying to get us invested in the competition. However, Catherine Parr sings about her other accomplishments (a glimpse into how the audience should learn more about the other wives' lives) and the end has them rewrite their stories if Henry hadn't married them. I don't think the play was specifically made to educate us, because having the queens sing about their lives outside of Henry would make the end less impactful and the competition seem fake. I do think it would've been nice to have a song at the end celebrating their achievements outside of Henry, but it would be too hard to navigate the promiscuity that is historical records (shown in how they pick a path to go down that this video highlights is possibly inaccurate multiple times) so they instead pushed the idea that history doesn't go into enough depth and that they aren't just, to quote, "one of Henry's wives".

@@felcrow that’s my point. They get you invested in the competition for a good hour, playing into the very trope they’re supposed to be against. a short song at the end does very, very little to counter that imo. And ‘re-writing their stories’ is pretty meaningless. They compose a whole show, again, based on these real women outdoing each other with their very real trauma. An ending of AUs doesn’t make that any better. if the history is too difficult they shouldn’t have made the show? they told flat out lies about Anne Boleyn and reduced Catherine Howard to nothing but what the men in her life did to her. Again, these were _real_ people, not dolls to play around with, and as such historical fiction owes them respect, and comes with responsibility. The writers wanted their cake and to eat it too imo. they wanted both to play off the drama and popular trope of having them compete, playing into the ‘fandoms’ of the wives and comparing trauma, whilst also being feminist and saying how that’s bad. You can’t have it both ways without the ending seeming cheap and shallow. If the creators of the show really went into this with ‘history doesn’t go into enough depth’ in mind they did nothing to counter that. I’m sorry but imo the show is shallow, and does a disservice to the memories of the women. I’m not talking about its quality as a musical, but historically? It’s poor. Imo it’s trying to be feminist and failing badly, because there’s no depth or accuracy. it’s all well and good having them _say_ they’re not “just a wife” but again they’re reduced to that throughout the entire musical.

yeah but Henry was an abusive piece of shit, you can want a family and marriage but the fact that her happy ending was with an abuser is the issue.

@@vainpiers it never explicitly says that she ends up with Henry it just says that her family grew after her first son, she could've married someone else and had a son with them they never say she stayed with Henry it's up to the viewers interpretation, but I've seen a lot of people view it as her having a loving family of her own that doesn't include Henry

@@mexicocity38 that’s how I took it too

YES

@@mexicocity38 Oh, when she said "my family's grown" I thought she was talking about the other wives.

Evita and Gypsy are the same. They're not historically accurate, but you still get a sense of them. They're great shows and have stood the test of time.

@@kawaii33366 yea, that’s true. Id be kinda surprised if the characters looked liked pop stars back then. But I meant more about the story it was telling :)

An interesting idea to be honest!

@@marissaurias5116 i wonder why they did that since most concerts last 2 hours? It would have been perfect

yesss 🥺

Knowing the writers' other work... it really hasn't transformed much since Edinburgh. It's increased it's production value and inclusiveness but the concept was stuck. Also an amendment to his review. Edinburgh is one of the largest performance festivals in Europe. It's almost (not quite but almost) a ticket into long-term touring and future transfers. There's nothing mere about it. It's expensive and is a bit like trying for X Factor. I've seen it drown thousands of artists.

@@marissaurias5116 also, the girls are acting like a pop girl group, so it's kind of a divas pop concert

I agree. I think they only did it for Parr because she outlived Henry. Which if you think about it means nothing because parr only outlived him for 2 years. It would have especially great to see it for Anne of Cleves because she lived up until Mary’s rule

The point of the show was to ask you why you were so interested in the first place, all while making money off of that dilemma. If the musical left you wanting to know more, it did it’s job. There’s a ton of books and documentaries that take a look at these women as individuals. You’re supposed to crave more from them. They sing that final song to essentially let you know it’s the last time you should consider them as a unit. “For five more minutes, we’re six.” At least that’s how I took it. Anne Boleyn lays it out all right there for you right before they go into the final song. There couldn’t be a more transparent moment in the show.

I lot of them didn’t have many like k Howard she was quite young when she dies

But what about Jane? A lot of people say there wasn't much known about her outside of her marriage. Although I do also agree with the idea, she deserved more detailed portrayal in Six (like wanting the rebellers (of what specifically I forgot) to be spared or bringing Mary into succession)

@@unicornyum7262 I don’t see how Jane doesn’t apply to what I said above. If it made you interested in wanting to find out more about these women, it did it’s job, including with Jane. They were withholding for a reason. If there’s not a lot of info to dig into outside of the show, I don’t really see how that’s the fault of the creators.

I too love henry the 13th

@@Alonzi. Oops.

@@elliot2331 XD

I agree it was great.

I cried

"Tuder von Trapps" It's Henry.

@@bessieburnet9816 "I'm just kidding, we're called the Royaling Stones"

I agree that she is talking about having children with someone besides Henry. The whole point of that song is to explain what their lives would be like without him. So it makes sense that her other children would have been gathered by someone else.

Jane died after having her son with Henry. The son only lived to be 15. So no he didn't have children!

​@@KatMusic2009This is her happy ending though , so in the happy ending Jane ends up having more kids and Edward lives past 15

Anne Boylen would be tricky to portray. I’m not going to say she was a innocent angel. She probably had her flaws. But it’s hard to ignore the fact history is written by the victors. And sometimes we don’t know the truth to what people back then wanted other people to know. One thing I liked better than other sources is that it highlighted how much Anne cared about her brother George. Despite the Tudors having it’s flaws it hit home how much pain Anne went through seeing her brother wrongly beheaded. Meanwhile six Anne simply said she flirted with some men and that’s it. For today’s standards Henry would be a hypocrite because he cheated yet got angry that Anne had the nerve to flirt with other men. But at the time men were allowed to cheat but not women because women can get pregnant. DNA testing wasn’t a thing. Men had to make sure the kids he raised was actually his and not another man’s. Especially with royalty. Can’t let a imposter on the throne.

She refused to sleep with him because she saw what happened to his mistresses: bedded and discarded. She was smart to not give in.

@Someone 333 I'm well aware of the relationship between her and Percy. Tudor history is my jam. Why do people think other people are mindless fools?

they changed a lot of lyrics to fit US culture/slang! things like changing "mate" > "bro"

I-

Idk much about American slang as I am from the UK but i know they changed some lyrics to your equivalents such as mate to friend and pbs to gcse

@@myagamingkat I’m actually not from the US, I’m from the Philippines XD Just a fan of both versions so I’ve listened to them enough to catch the little changes

@@myagamingkat I as an American(not a flex) prefer the UK version. It’s the one I watch on here and if it’s not on here I don’t watch it. I absolutely loathe the Broadway version.

I mean, she probably had a vendetta against Anne Boleyn, considering that Jane was both catholic and a staunch supporter of Henry's first wife, Catherine of Aragon, who she also served as a lady in waiting. But I don't think she was actively trying to plant herself as Henry's next wife. She probably didn't have much of a choice, either. This clip from Wolf Hall sums it up pretty well. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Fn38ix9pmL4.html

She did financially abuse Elizabeth soooo

Catherine Parr talks about how when the king wants you, you can’t say no. She saw how her headstrong and opinionated predecessors turned out - I think she learned to keep a low profile for her own safety.

There's actually no evidence that Henry even wanted to marry Jane. I've read that Henry and Anne were very happy together. Suzannah Lipscomb has a very good documentary about it. She's one of my favorite Tudor historians.

Please PLEASE let him do hamiltion!

Yesss Hamilton is fun but in historic accuracy, a mess.

Rip HH on netflix tho- leaving at end of june 2021

Basically you’re saying that you’re 7th to 8th grade. Six was very popular a short while ago.

@@vivaciousmyosotis what wrong with that?

@@vivaciousmyosotis Six first hit Broadway in 2017, which was (hehe) six years ago. That puts Kiki, our original commenter, in their junior or senior year of high school.

Can you share that project with all of us?💕

This comment got unpinned

Which Anne and which Catherine?

@@pinksoft39 Anne Boleyn and Catherine of Aragon

I was confused too - I thought I forgot a wife 😂

Honestly same. I know royal names are usually translated, but it's kinda weird to hear Catalina be called Catherine lol

I’m personally a big fan of Catherine of Aragon and her song! Don’t lose ur head is a cloooose second though

My favorite queen is probably Anna of Cleves and my favorite song is "I don't need your love".

it's annoying how inaccurate "don't loose your head" is cause it's got some cool music.

I like the beheaded cousins’ songs. My favorite queen personality wise is Anne Boleyn.

My favorite song is the intro one "Ex-Wives" but Cathrine Parr is my favorite queen tho I love the other Cathrines too

I read Adele was Parr and Jane was Celine.

@@bessieburnet9816 no Parr was Alisha Keys

The outfit was based off Adele but the songs were Celine

Can you put the link please?

Agreed. She was a smart woman and helped the Protestant Reformation in England.

@@anniehorton9276 thank you

I actually interpretated the "Politics? Not my thing!" part as her lying. Like she's pretending that politics isn't her thing, but it actually is. Idk. It seemed in the studio recording that her voice changed to a 'sneaky' tone when she sang that part. That's how it looked like to me anyways.

link pls! i'd love to listen to it

It wasn't meant to be accurate just to interest you I've always loved the thought of this part of history

Absolutely, I think it’s good that it leads people to learn more about these women but the in-universe competition definitely leads into Henry being the focus of things.

If I'm not mistaken that was the resolution of the show! Anne Boleyns lil dialogue and their ending songs conveyed how it was dumb to compare themselves and just be seen as "the six wives of Henry VIII"

@@credenceazure5011 Yeah, that's true. But acknowledging it doesn't change the fact that they haven't told a lot about them. I get that this is the premise of the show and as mentioned, that's where the problems come from.

@@animatorireenie8319 I can see where some viewers might leave it at that and just consume media shared history. Hopefully videos like this gets on their recommended!

@@credenceazure5011 I agree 👍

Let’s just agree that Henry like to play fast and loose with Bible teaching. Also I pretty sure that particular responsibility is not a mandate any longer.

WAIT- WHAT?!!!!

Yeah I was very annoyed by that misapplication of Leviticus (as a formerly studious religious person). The rule against taking your brothers wife is when your brother is still alive. If he dies without an heir it becomes an obligation. Whether it applies to Christians or not is an entirely different question.

Not ,Anne was not she was genuinley trying to stay away from him she did not want to be the queen and neither mistress as she was religious . She was not as ambitious as potrayed and it is more likley Jane wanted to be the queen ,Henry was bothering Anne before she became queen to be his mistress and when she decided to not and then he asked her to become the queen ,something she could not turn down .

@@solangereyes2489 Exactly! What people seem to forget is that divorce was near impossible back then. When Anne said she would only going to sleep with her husband and the only way to get to her was marrying her, it was a polite way of saying she didn't want the king (something bery dangerous to do, I must point out) but Henry took it as a proposition to divorce his wife. She couldn't have been more obvious in her "No!" and only got to him when it was clear she couldn't escape Henry. And she died because of that!

@@becademarques Sad very sad ,she was a victim of something she could not control she and Kathrine of Aragon both and all of Henry wives ,no one could say no to the king.😨

I think that's exactly what they realise at the end, that was the point, why are they competing who had it worse when they were more than just his wives? They focus on it for the whole musical, just like the general history an average student learns only mentions them as wives, but at the end I feel like it's a bit of a step forward that now people can see them as individuals

That's kinda the point, during I Don't Need Your Love they realize it and the twisted nature of the whole competition.

That's literally the point of the musical, did you actually watch it??

The thing is we never knew if he stayed with Henry. We know that her family grow and they made a band but it could be interpreted in various ways. One is that she now considera six her family and the making a band would make sense. Also she could have dumped Henry or even not married him a t all like Katherine of Aragon.

yeah i agree with that. He only loved Jane "the most" because she gave him the male heir he really wanted. if Henry had've stayed alive until after Edward died, I'd bet he would've changed his tune. @Natsukifan 87 she couldn't have dumped Henry because in those that was not allowed. Henry was allowed to because he was King and could change the rules plus he was a male. and also she couldn't have not married him at all, because he probably would've forced it or "begged" until she said yes. That was NOT an option for her or any of his wives, except maybe Catherone of Aragon in the early years b4 their marriage.

Henry threatened to kill her when she begged him to have mercy on the people who took part in the Pilgrimage of Grace.

@@lauras5359 i don't think the alternate happy ending in the song "six" is meant to be an actually historically accurate ending, it's just a reimagining of their lives. Like, yes, Jane couldn't have separated from Henry back then, but it's a rewriting so anything could happen. Also, Jane's song does mention that Henry's love is purely conditional to the fact that she gave him a son, but she still chose to stay by his side until her death because she's stubborn in her feelings no matter how much hardships he puts her in. I interpret that in the alternate ending she does realize it's not quite healthy to live like that and leaves, but to be fair her happy ending is the weirdest to me because it's kind of unspecific on who her family actually is.

@@mb-176 yeah I do realize that. I'm just saying what was historically accurate. Personally I choose to separate the wives from Six and the real ones because we know next to nothing about the real ones except for facts that other people have told us from Henry's and others pov. That's why I love the musical so much but the reimaginngs of real life historical people are just fantasy because we don't know

To me it comes to a mom who tries to be cool and hip with the youngsters

Little disclaimer: by this I do not mean you cant achieve both, it's just a generalized example to show both sides of a coin, you could even consider Jane achieves both by having a family and being in a sucessfull band

Thank you, Carlos! I’m sure it’ll still be on by next time you come back! 🙂

Well i mean it is incredibly inaccurate so there we are. Starting with the fact that they are all standing there together and performing and so on, because if I continue this will become a long ass essay

It's not about who had the worst life in general, but about who had the worst time with Henry. But either way, comparing their traumas with Henry(although tbf I do think it is safe to say that Anne had the best time with Henry only because she didn't spend much time with him--rather, she got out of it lucky and with money to spare) goes entirely against the message the musical is trying to send. Please stop missing the point.

OUR family grown

@@kpopnimation She says that after she mentions her son (who also died young), so it could maybe refer to him having kids too.

kinda makes u realize that even the brightest star has their shadow

Hm, while she did join her husband in tickling Elizabeth while she was in bed, I think its generally believed that she thought it was just harmless fun. The second she found out that Elizabeth and her husband were in an embrace she sent Liz to live somewhere else. While she was complicit in Thomas's unwanted advances towards Elizabeth, she didn't seek out to abuse Elizabeth.

@@ancientegyptian1841 really? The story I heard was much darker. Parr held down Elizabeth while her husband ripped her nightgown to shreds. (This is coming from my college history prof) ofc historians are unsure if the hold was malicious or not, she may have been trying to comfort her while her husband did it, but still. And then she sent Elizabeth away after her husband abused her.

Anne Boleyn was also abusive to Mary

For sure a bunch of it was from _The Tudors_ it seems the clips with Helena B-C are from a tv serial called _HenryVII_ , there was at least on clip from _The Other Boleyn Girl_ I couldn't think of the names of any other actresses, so I couldn't look them up.