#towerofjoy #asoiaf #asoiaftheory Patreon 😸 patreon.com/us... Buy Me A Coffee ☕ www.buymeacoff... My theory on how Ned was able to kill Ser Arthur Dayne
@@romulusnuma116 Yeah I've heard that a fair amount and I always feel like it conflicts with what we know about how hard it is to warg in general let a long to warg people, like there's no evidence Howland can or does warg... obviously hard to say, but Im not really seein it
This theory makes way too much sense. I was skeptical but the bit about Sam getting netted by Howland's daughter in the presence of Ned's son really sells it.
It's kinda an odd sell at first but like, there's actually a ton of textual evidence 0_0 I think I'll get to gloat when it comes out in Winds or Spring (so in other words I'll never get to gloat, I just think I'm right 🤣)
This has all made me realize that the Mance Rayder is Arthur Dayne theory is true. How did Ned beat Arthur? He didn't...he didn't beat him. The kings guard beat Ned. There is a huge subplot where Dayne is watching Jon like obi wan and Luke.
@@dank6.6.6 I think Howland ended the fight by reasoning with the kingsguard that letting Ned visit his sister isn't violating their oath. Not by weird magic and not by backstabbing someone. Especially because he's nearly useless as a fighter.
The blunt, brutal, anti climax of, he was caught in a net by a small man using his native tactics, and then stabbed to death, honestly makes me believe this fits better than any grand magic.
"To stab him in the face or perhaps the balls!" Hahahahahaha. I'm dying here man. He killed Arthur by stabbing him in the balls. I'd never mention that.
Thank you, I thought about it because it seemed like people were blowing off Reed as like a suck fighter or a fireball magic user or something but the text was really specific about him being the fight truing element in the fight and it never talked about magic. So when I went and looked around I pieced out what I thought went down
I'm realy glad you liked it and it helped easy the existential horror of reality. I'm probably gonna do one in a little bit about the popular kingsguard surviving the tower of joy theory (like the who mance is arthur dayne thing) and why im not hip to it so hopefully that will be enjoyable as well.
@@randominternetguyoffical I don't think there is but something made Howland become a recluse, my headcanon is that Howland warged into Arthur Dayne as a last ditch effort to save Ned and then Ned killed Arthur while Howland was inside him which shattered Howlands psyche
Exactly, I've personally taken a tumble on a few occasions when an elbow wing or piece of my leg armor has been locked up on someone im grappling with. I can only imagine a good netting would seriously mess up a persons ability to defend themselves.
Honestly if I had to choose between the: “Arthur got Nedded” “Howling of the Great Dayne” *getting warged and you know thistle screamed when getting warged* “Arthur got shanked” I would choose “Arthur got shanked”. Because outside the retiarius “gladiator that used the net and trident” nets weren’t used in war. I tried looking it up and I couldn’t find anything outside of “Nets are impractical in battle” and Samwell isn’t a really high bar when comes to beating him in a fight. The warging sound very cool but you already proved it unlikely. So in my opinion Arthur got T-boned by Howland whilst fighting Ned, stabbed in the armpit during said tackle and got stabbed in the neck as a finisher. There are piercing daggers specifically made and used to get in between the gaps of armour like the armpit, visor and around nek/collarbone.
It's weird how in that Cat chapter, she remembers how the servants talk about how Ned killed Arthur in single combat, but Ned himself says that Howland Reed saved his life. What's up with that!?!?
The telephone game imo. He faced Dayne and killed him, no one but him knows the details so the "tale grows in the telling" to quote Tolkien Least that's my interpretation. a mean there's probably some Winterfell/Ned pride in those statements, like "our" young lord beat that Southerners ass lol But that just my guess
That and cat really does love Ned and all the more heroic of him to have won the war slain the sword of the morning and then in his grief of his sister that’s how he got a bastard. This story at least has a coat of glamor to Neds dishonor she even mentions something like “it’s ok if men have bastards in war but he brought Jon here rude”
probably what happened was Ned was losing - he was on the ground Dane was ready to kill him. Howland tossed the net distracting him. Arthur turns to kill Howland, Ned thrusts his sword into Arthur's body killing him.
I personally think Howland broke one of the skinchanging rules and tries to wargs into Arthur giving Ned the moment to strike while Arthur is discombobulated
I actually might do a video on this idea cuz its always been a bit confusing to me, we never get any proof or confirmation at Howland can warg.. his kids cant and no other Crangomen can that we meet. Bran (the most powerful changer in our story) and 6 Skins (maybe even more powerful than bloodraven?) Are the only ones who do it and it forces one of the soul out of everyone we know of except Hordor and that seems to be cuz he was hit with time travel as a baby.. Check out the prolouge to Dance With Dragons and compare that to Ned Dream, theres not screaming Dayne ripping out his own tongue and eyes and theres no mention of Howlands soul being flung from Daynes body to warg the empty air.. I just can't really see how the conclusion gets arrived at 🤔 But who knows maybe Bran will reveal it in a time travel episode
While I didn't know about the net, this is sort of how I always imagined the fight going. Ned and his 6 companions attack the 3 kings guards. And while all 3 of the kings guards are the best there is, they are outnumbered 2 to 1 with Howland Reed to spare. They manage to trade each other off until Ned and Arthur are left, with Howland in the fight as well, but not much help. Ned is a competent fighter, but he is no match for the sword of the morning and slowly starts losing ground. But in an opportune moment Howland tosses a net on Arthur Dayne's sword hand, right as Arthur goes for a block. At that moment Ned scores a critical hit and the fight is over. Arthur knows he is critically wounded and dying so he exchanges a few words with Ned regarding Lyanna and his sister Ashara. Ned promises to return Dawn to house Dayne.
@@randominternetguyoffical Wolf blood is tied to emotions, not personality after all Jon is also quiet and less violent compared to Robb and Robb is not violent, to begin with. Jon got his Wolf blood moment when he knew about the death of Robb, Bran and Rickon, Jon was filled with grief and tried to cope with it by fighting Iron Emmett. Ned's fight against Arthur parallels Jon's fight against Emmett. Emm is called the pride of Eastwatch-by-the-Sea and a superior fighter to Jon just like Arthur who is called the sword of the morning and a superior fighter to Ned. During the fight against Arthur, just like Jon, Ned was filled with emotions and did not forget, Ned believed if he loses Arthur means the death of his sister. I think Ned's Wolf blood kicked in and he killed Arthur and all his friends except Howland, since Jon initially didn't believe he almost killed Emm, Ned probably didn't believe he killed Arthur and the rest.
As weird as he is Preston is my favorite asoiaf youtuber so I'll take that as a complement lol odd story but Prestons "probably by throwing a frog at him" quote from his TOJ video is why I made this
I think they called a timeout and he walked him home and lied saying he killed him. Arthur Dayne and Howland are hanging out somewhere with his sister and her kid. That's why the Daynes love him so much they call their other kid "Ned". The only way out of being a white cloak is death... so Howland "killed him" by making him disappear into the swamps.
@@randominternetguyoffical There's gotta be SOME wholesome stuff going on in that story from time to time. And if it's gonna happen, Ned is the one that is gonna bring it, right? If not him then for sure it would be Howland. So here is to hoping! It's way better than my other ones where since Arya can apparently hear the whispers of the dead(Syrio during her escape from KL) then Ned probably can too. That means Leanna might have already been dead when he got there. It also means maybe he learned some stuff from Arthur after he died and what he shared with the Dayne family is why they like him. That's a bit more of a stretch than the first one though so I will remain hopeful for the wholesome. Still iffy on how the whole Arya heard Syrio when he was a dead thing... My only explanation for that is she got Warg-Lite'd and Jaquen was warging Syrio from the black cells (and Mr Pounce probably too) and when he died as Syrio he stopped in Arya's head and whispered a little to help while going back to his own body. It explains why Rorge and Biter were scared of him too. He might have warged them or just changed his face to scare them and used them to protect him while he was in Syrio, or who/whatever doing his recon before killing Ned on the way to the Wall or at the wall where he could steal Dragon books too, Safely tucked away and getting intel in other bodies. Explains how he knew so much about Arya at Harrenhall too. Just a little whisper while Syrio dies but hithe perosconsciousness inside says what now? "Not Because technically he didn't die.
I assumed Howland went full Harpo on Dayne, mustering his fingers, Scissoring any tie like fabrics, befuddleding the Kingsguard using a horn & slidewhistle to communicate. Then after Table Topping the Knight, Dayne would beat him with fury until Ned slit his hero's throat.
okay just discovered your channel and getting ready for the videos why all other youtubers theories are false but first i have to say i love your wacky quoting style haha
Here’s a fresh hypothesis from me to consider based upon our conversations: The longer that it takes Martin to finish the story, in terms of time and pages and books, the more cases of secret identities and switched identities come into the story. If Martin had finished as planned in three books over about ten years of real time, he still baked in several cases of secret identities and stolen identities all along bc he loves Strider/Aragorn, and Duncan Idaho and the face dancers in Dune, and Marya the princess disguised as a commoner in Memory, Sorrow & Thorn, and The Winter King from the 1990s in which Arthur was made the bastard son of Uthor Pendragon and Mordred was his true born brother (and I believe there were two of them with the first Mordred his older brother dying at the beginning of the story and Uthor having a second son he again names Mordred at the beginning who gets switched with another baby so that Arthur can protect him while he grows up. So we have homages to all these baked in from the begging. But George Martin needs new plot twists and secret identities to keep him interested as a writer over time to keep going. He wants to include his planned secret identies and plot twists of course, but he can’t keep up his excitement and keep going without adding fresh surprises to the plot as he writes to engage and surprise himself both as a reader of his own story and as a creator and puzzle maker and solver. So the series growing from three planned to seven or eight books, and the individual books getting longer, and taking six and ten and more years to write a book, and the show too, all of that keeps causing Martin to layer in more cases of secret identities and switched identities and more planned plot twists in the story. What I have said in the past is this takes the form of his cloning his own characters to finish his planned storylines while making room for the new ones: Originally there was one secret prince Jon. But he ended up creating so many storylines for Jon he need to create either Jaqen or Young Griff too. Then the same thing happened again and he split Jaqen and Young Griff. That’s why there are three of them. The same thing has happened with Arya. Originally modeled on Marya from Memory Sorrow, who was going to fall in love with her unknown brother (which Marya does) and spend a lot of the story disguised as someone else (which Marya does). But this sister got split into Arya who becomes a faceless woman and Sansa who falls in love instead of Arya with Jon. But Arya also gets split into Jeyne Poole who gets rescued one way in which Arya was going to by Mance/Aerthur. And Alice Karstark who is rescued another way that Arya was going to be at one point. And into Arriane Martell who does some of the stuff Arya was going to do since Arya is getting back to Westeros later than planned at one point. And the same thing happened to Dany. Who got split into Dany and Val at some point as well. And this still may be happening as Martin writes more!
Thats a nice theory. I tend to keep things simple in this case. The kingsguard was outnumbered and I just think the others managed to chip away at them. I think when Ned and Reed were the last ones standing Arthur was alone and probably tired and hurt. They worked together and could bring him down. I dont think any of them were concerned about honor when you are in a fight to the death.
Ned is honorable to a fault, but we're also shown that he will set aside his honor for the sake of his family -- in that moment, Ned was probably more worried about getting to Lyanna than his damned honor. Ned is honorable, but he was never suicidally honorable like people make him out to be. I'm sure he's not happy or going to brag about how Arthur Dayne died, but he probably still sees it as the only way even years later.
@@DimNussens Ned sets his honor to the side not just for his family, the towns watch bribe is the first thing that comes to mind, he didnt need to do that he just caved to the pressure after worrying about turning down renlys offer.
I'm always interested in the idea of "magic" in asoiaf. Mostly because we never really see anything of the scale of legendary magic and Mel basically cops to being a charlatan, so I'm still in the camp that we can't lock it in for sure. What do you think is the source of magic in asoiaf if it exists?
I am not posting on your videos to rag your theories bc I think they are bad. Your videos are all really thoughtful and well argued. You win your arguments as they are with the Order of the Green Hand. I just think that something much deeper is going on here that the Order of the Green Hand caught a glimpse of and it took me several years to figure out what they were really onto at a much deeper level than anyone has articulated. So here is another Quora answer to a question I recently wrote: "In ASOIAF, why did Ned Stark only take 6 companions with him to the Tower of Joy? Why not take his personal guard and overwhelm or subdue the Kingsgaurd?" Personally, I always found this almost impossible to believe and understand. I do think you have to look at the circumstances and how close everyone really is here: 1. We have almost certain evidence from Baristan Selmy and Jojen and Meera Reed that either Ned or Howland Reed feel in love with Ashara Dayne at the Tournament at Harrenhal. There is a debate which one of them it really was, and my money would be more on Howland Reed, but in any case it was one of them in love with Ashara, Arthur Dayne’s sister. 2. We also have complicated evidence that Ashara Dayne actually was or got pregnant and Ned smuggled her north during the earliest days of the war. It could have been his or Howland’s child, or Ned’s brother Brandon’s child, but my money is that it was actually Rhaegar Targaryen’s child. Not that Ashara loved Rhaegar or Rhaegar loved Ashara, but that they had a deal because the prophecies said that Rhaegar had to have three children and Ashara’s best friend Elia could not have a third. So Rhaegar and Ashara were probably sleeping together with Elia’s knowledge (essentially to try to produce Jon) going into the tournament at Harrenhal. After either Ned or Howland feel in love with Ashara and Ashara broke off her arrangement with Rhaegar, Ned smuggled her north pregnant with a daughter, who I have argued elsewhere shows up later in our story as the stunning Val “the wildling princess.” She is not a princess but she acts like one. Really she is a princess, probably, the daughter of Rhaegar Targaryen and Ashara Dayne. In any case, by this point in the story Ned and Howland know from Ashara that according to her Rhaegar was not a bad guy at all and is the father of a secret child they are protecting. 3. Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard was uncle to Catelyn Stark, Ned’s new wife. Catelyn’s father whom we hear about all the time was Hoster Tully, but her mother who died and we rarely hear about was Minisa Whent, sister to Oswell Whent. So we have a very intrafamily affair, where one of the three kingsguard is Ned’s wife’s uncle and another is the brother of the woman that Ned or Howland loves. Furthermore, Ned doesn’t know what he is really going to find. Because he heard from Robert that Rhaegar was aweful but he almost certainly heard from Ashara Dayne and others that Rhaegar was decent and honorable completely unlike his father. Indeed, Ned is a viewpoint character and he never has a single negative thought about Rhaegar in his mind that we observe. Robert repeatedly says awful things about Rhaegar to Ned, and every time instead of agreeing with Robert verbally or internally with his own thoughts, Ned immediately changes the subject. He clearly disagrees and doesn’t want to talk about it with Robert at all. I have written elsewhere of my radical theory that Ned’s group of seven did not win but lost at the Tower of Joy. The battle cuts away in Ned’s dream just as the fighting starts. We are told that the two sides met in a clash of shadow and steel. But in the runup we get Ned calling his five dead men shadows and ghosts several times and thinking about their death and being sad that he can’t remember their faces. By contrast, Ned never once calls any of the three kingsguard shadows or ghosts. He thinks to himself “their faces burn bright even now” as though they are still alive. What probably happened is that the three kingsguard in plate mail cut down Ned’s five friends and Howland immediately surrendered on his and Ned’s behalf. Howland may have even grabbed Ned’s sword arm or thrown a net on him to save his life. Ned says that Arthur Dayne would have killed him but for Howland Reed. He never once says that Howland Reed or he killed or defeated Arthur Dayne or the kingsguard. Everyone just believes that is what happened. It’s never once said or internally remembered by Ned. i What probably happened is that the deaths of the three kingsguard were all faked so that they could go on secret missions for Rhaegar to protect Aegon VI and Jon and prepare for a future Targaryen restoration one day and the battle with the Others. I have written multiple posts on Quora supporting the theory that Mance Rayder is really Arthur Dayne in disguise. There is a lot of evidence of this. Rhaegar would have ordered him, based on Rhaegar’s dragon dreams and the prophecies he studied, to go north of the wall, pretend to be wildling or assume someone else’s identity (in this case the original Mance Rayder who disappeared), unify the wildling tribes just as he had unified all the men of the Kingswood to follow the crown rather than the Kingswood Brotherhood, and when the time is right bring them south of the wall and put Rhaegar’s son (who turned out to be Jon) in charge of them to fight the battle with the Others for the Long Night. This was all Rhaegar’s fall back plan if Robert’s Rebellion was successful. There is even some in story reasons for thinking that Rhaegar ultimately learned and decided that he had to lose on the Trident for his kids to be scattered and eventually save humanity; that if he defeated Robert, his kids would eventually be killed someone in King’s Landing (probably by the sixth Blackfyre rebellion organized by Varys and Illyrio Mopatis) dooming humanity to lose the Long Nght. So it was purposefully a tiny group of Ned’s loyalist friends to meet the three kingsguard because Ned didn’t know exactly what he would find. He didn’t know if Lyanna had loved Rhaegar or been abducted. He didn’t know if she was pregnant or not. He didn’t know if the kingsguard would surrender to him or fight. He didn’t know what Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent would tell him or do. Thankfully for humanity, that’s what he did.
No worries, I appreciate all of the feedback! I have just never personally felt that the tower of joy scene implied that anything that happened there was false necessarily or that like we were missing something that was a critical element. Out of curiosity on a different theory topic. Where do you stand on the idea that the humans and the others have a common origin point like they're genetically compatible. And do you think the same thing is true of humans? And the children of the forest? That's always one that I thought is kind of fun to discuss because it goes back to georges old work.
@@randominternetguyoffical I am not that familiar with George’s old work. I am really curious to hear your theories on that. It seems like a fruitful line of inquiry. I tend to think of the White Walkers as Ghosts of Greenseers whose shadows have been stolen similar to what Shadowbinders do, or as faded Green Men or ancient kings holding onto magical unlife powered by The Heart of Winter, similar to the Nazgûl holding onto unlife powered by the One Ring. I am an expert in the Odyssey and the Lord of the Rings, which allows me to see the parallels btn Jaqen and Odysseus and Jaqen and Strider. Between the Stark kids and the hobbits. I also know a lot about Dune so I can see the parallels of Rhaegar to Paul Muad’Dib. I can see a lot of parallels of Dany to Moses and Aeron Greyjoy to John the Babtist, Jonah, and Aaron brother of Moses. I can see the Euron parallels to Second Age Sauron and to Lovecratt’s nyarlathotep. I can see the parallels of Cersei and Jamie to McBeth. am really deep into character analysis and the archetype of the quest. My professor emeritus of comparative literature at Yale George de Forest Lord wanted me to become a professor of comparative literature focused on epics and quest narratives. But I don’t know that much about science fiction or George’s science fiction compared to aficionados and theories of hive minds, time travel, symbiotic organisms, comparative sentient races. I know about Tolkien’s elves and Greek theories of the golden age and classical Greek tragedy and Christopher Marlowe and that stuff. I am great at plot twists involving characters. I am the guy who turned to my girlfriend in the first five minutes of the Prestige where there are two birds and said the main character has an identical twin brother we haven’t met yet that will be the key to his magical tricks and his plot: like A tale of Two cities, one is going to have to die to save the other one like the magic trick that involved killing one bird to make the other appear. I am the guy who watched the first episode of Game of Thrones before reading the books and guaranteed to my wife and friends that Cersei and Jamie are really secret Targaryen bastards; a theory I stand by. And then said that R+L = J and the Red Wedding will happen while reading the second book waiting for the second season to start. And I can guarantee you just as much, Jaqen is Rhaegar’s son, Arthur Dayne didn’t die at the Tower of Joy, there will be a second red wedding led by Mother Mercilless that she forces Breanne and Jamie to help with, and Bran is the Fischer King who has to save the cursed North from an ancient evil fairie pact the Starks made with the Orhers or those who created them. It’s because a great director like Christopher Nolan or a great author like Marsha Norman or George Martin tells you what’s going to happen before it does with all the clues right there on the page. Unfortunately, I can’t find it to cite bc George Martin wrote a book Fevre Dream and there are dozens of dreams in ASOIAF. But back when the Mance is Arthur theory by The Green Hand got me interested bc of the somewhat unique character parallels btn the two characters in the story, and I was listening to Martin interviews, there is an interview somewhere where someone asks him about the details of the battle at the Tower of Joy. And his response is to say “it’s a fever dream,” which is a hallucination when someone has a really high temperature. Dreams themselves distort reality, but fevre dreams are a whole another order of magnitude. You’re asking me about the fevre dream of the fight at the tower of Joy like it is the Zapruder video of the John Kennedy assignation. It’s not. It’s a distorted and symbolic fevre dream. The fact that this was Martin’s reaction I took as a huge clue that TV something is going on here very different than how most everyone takes it. So you have to factor that in with the odd language that the faces of the three kingsguard still burn bright today and Ned’s never saying that he or Howland killed Arthur and that one of them was head over heals in love with Arthur’s sister separate and above all Mance’s oddities: saving Jon’s life three times from other wilding leaders looking to kill him; the trip to meeting him being a trip to meet the dead symbolically, Mance’s mastery of the greatsword, his mastery of Southern songs, his diplomatic supremacy, his guarding a non princess who acts and is treated like a princess; Stannis saving him after meeting him secretly; his cloak with Asshai silk; his multiple identities as Able and Mance and yet another at the first Winterfell feast; his strong desire to rescue as Stark girl as though he cared for another in the past; etc etc. I can only say it would be incredible now for Mance not to be Arthur.
I don't think anyone is really overlooking anything persay? Because the character is treated as dead in the story by everybody and by the story.. And so far we haven't seen any evidence to imply that they are alive. So like the fact that george rr martin didn't turn to the camera and say "hey audience that guy who barely has any importance in the story is dead"... Doesn't really strike me as odd. But maybe thats just me.
Thanks for the quick and thorough responses dude 👊🏼 the TOJ is obviously one of if not the most interesting and important mysteries in the story, so I could go on and on…for now I’ll just say there’s no way to know that’s what the author intended…but my understanding is that GRRM is a (painfully 😩😩) meticulous writer and I don’t think he phrases anything unintentionally. He WANTS us to be having this debate. So IMO any theory that is plausible, has textual support, and would somehow enhance the overall story is a good theory because even if it’s “wrong” it’s still not wrong in that the author left us a red herring to wonder “wait…what’s up w Mance/[Dayne/(f)Aegon/Varys/Darrio/Marwin etc etc etc] this dude is super mysterious?” Mance and Dayne are two of the first characters mentioned by name in the first chapter (I think) of the first book which means they are probably both super important to the overall story and there are countless clues (or red herrings) that there’s more to the story of both of them than meets the eye. It’s plausible, and it would IMO be an amazing enhancement of the plot. It’s a good theory
Haha AND ANOTHER THING 😂 if the people in the story think something happened (some in particular who “know nothing” LIKE CAT don’t come at me 😂) for me actually cuts AGAINST that story being true…one thing is indisputable and that is that the TOJ is a fog of mystery because Ned insisted on it being so, particularly the alleged “deaths” of Arthur and Ashara. The only people whose words I trust are Old Nan and Patchface 🤣 And to open a whole new can of worms Ashara=Lemore is darn near a lock for me…the only reason I doubt that is because it seems too obvious. Another character who GRRM never said is dead only that she “flung herself into the sea” or something close to that…
“JANUARY 02, 2002 CONCERNING THE TOWER OF JOY I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander amd the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there…. However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?” “You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear. I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.” -So spake Martin
So this is a popular quote and an interesting one for sure. I'm not entirely convinced that it means the events didn't as in the fight didn't occur like it could still be pretty different in a lot of ways but have had the same fight. So I do think this is an interesting quote but I don't know that it can stand as evidence that the fight didn't occur.
@@randominternetguyoffical I would say you/we don’t have real evidence that the fight did occur. We have a fevre dream; and George Marin’s statement emphasizing that it is a fevre dream and is not to be taken literally. I do have two alternate theories of the fight. one is figurative and the other is literal. I have given you the literal one that accepts the events in the fevre dream as true and progresses with Ned’s five friends dying, then Howland surrendering, then the three kingsguard explaining Rhaegar’s plan to Bed and Howland. The other figurative interpretation is yes they never fought at all. The fever dream is a domination of what Ned expected to happen and the consequences of what did happen. Under this interpretation Howland negotiated a peace, the deaths of all the men were faked, Ned’s five men sailed across the sea to Pentos to protect Aegon VI, and the kingsguard went north to organize bringing the wildlings south of the wall before the war. Unfortunately, Illyrio poisoned Ned’s five men in Pentos, which is my there is this whole thing about poisoned mushrooms at his manse that Tyrion fixates on when he is there. Tyrion decides there must be dead men buried in Illyrio’s garden and there are five or six poisoned mushrooms growing that Tyrion looks at and later briefly fears Illyrio has fed him. I am honestly not sure which version of events is right: That the kingsguard won and cut down Ned’s five men before Howland surrendered. Or there never was a fight at all and all the henchmen were sent away on secret missions. It’s just either way the one thing that didn’t happen is that eight men died, including Arthur who is most clearly still alive. Ned and Howland didn’t stab the finest knight who ever lived to death trapped in a net while one of them was in love which Ashara and the other was also Ashara Dayne’s good friend now. Two men didn’t pull town a stone tower and build eight giant stone cairns with a mewing baby, which would have been impossible. Either five or ten men survived at the Tower, with Arthur in charge just like he was beyond the wall working with Ned, when Catelyn tries to warn and scare Ned in her first chapter and Ned tells her right off Mance Rayder is no threat to them or the North. And this is all consistent with Ned Dayne being named after the Tower of Joy after Eddard: Bc he didn’t kill the beloved Dayne family Sword of the Morning held in a net. Instead Ned secretly saved Ashara Dayne’s daughter (Val) from Robbert and Aerys at the start of the war and then gave a castle a d upbringing himself to Arthur’s grandson Jon at the end of the war while secretly cooperating with Rhaegar’s Paul Muad’Dib Golden Path plans for his kids to be protected and save humanity. We don’t have enough evidence for sure to say whether Ned’s five friends perished at the tower or not. We do have enough evidence to say that Ned’s five friends are dead now, having perished either at the tower or on a secret mission many years ago following the tower, while the three kingsguard survived and were alive still during A Game of Thrones, though Gerold Hightower the Bull was probably killed as a sacrificial bull by Jon himself according to Gerold’s plan to make the wildlings accept Jon into them as their future leader as Rhaegar had told the three kingsguard would some day happen so many years ago at the outset of Robert’s Rebellion. There is a lot of Mithraism in the religion of the Red Priests around Azor Ahai and Jon killing the bull Gerold Hightower in a ritual to ascend and become the promised savior of humanity as believed by the ancient Mithrites was a key event in his journey. What Arthur Dayne didn’t expect is that Jon would desert back to the Night’s Watch to defeat them then still play a role in the wildlings coming south and become their religious leader after being killed and brought back from death. Arthur expected Gerold as Qhorin to get Jon to him, then Mance to put Jon in place to be given credit by him for capturing Castle Black with his knowledge and letting the wildlings through, and then Mance to essentially make Jon his personal steward among the wildlings just as Mormont had and groom him to be his direct successor as King of the Wildlings to fight the Long Night. Things keep happening in the story eventually as Rhaegar expected and briefed the kingsguard, but the details and how it happens each time are more convoluted and not as directly how Mance, Gerold, Oswell, Ned, Howland all imagined it would happen based on the prophecies and instructions from Rhaegar passed down to them. There is also an analogy here of Rhaegar to Hari Seldon as well as Paul Atreides with his Foundation and Second Foundation (his three kids and two sons, Aegon and Aemon) laying out the blueprint to save humanity and setting up all his kids to play a role separately, and being successful, even while the plan goes far off at various points the clean path that Seldon / Rhaegar set up following his death for Foundation / the three heads of the dragon to save humanity from the Long Night / collapse of the Galactic Empire / inevitable Fall of the Targaryen dynasty and reconstitute itself.
@@jclaburn I think theyre two pretty different claims, like one is Ned is more or less dramatizing or embellishing with fever dreamism real events that happend.. And the other is both assuming that it didnt happen and that a lot of other things happened. To me one requires a lot more leaps and thats why I wouldnt say theyre exaclt equally unlikely or require equal supporting evidence to buy into. Just my opinion tho, I know a lot of people think there will be some major reveals in winds or dream that will shake up the plot.
@@randominternetguyoffical okay but we don’t assume other things happened. George Martin gave us lots of stuff happening. For example, I didn’t email my friends that Jamie and Cersei are bastard Targaryens after one episode of the show and no books just bc I like bastard or secret identity theories. It’s because look: there are two noble families from near the seat of power who lived in Kings Landing and went to tournaments together at the same time. Both of which have blonde hair and gorgeous looks. In both cases the male wants to sleep with his sister. That’s so incredibly unusual and weird. We also have magical powers supposedly passed by one of them. What’s the simplest explanation for all this incest by unearthly handsome blondes in a magical world. That Targaryens have some kind of magical biology that attract them to each other breaking the normal human revulsion to incest and reversing it. Infidelity is hugely common, especially by kings and powerful men. The by far simplest and best explanation for what we observe with Jamie and Cersei is that they have this biological and magical incestuous twincest to each other bc their father or at least grandfather was really a Targaryen. of course it’s a better story if it was the king we hear all about who was cucking the character who is still in the story who we hear about from the beginning rather than unnamed grandfather. As for the importance of Mance Rayder, Bran thinks about his name before Robb’s in chapter one. He is named before most of the Starks in the story. Catelyn also brings him up again in her first chapter at the begging of her first conversation with Ned. He has been set up from the very beginning as a feared and mysterious character who is going to be central to the story. All the oddities and analogies and incredibly strange behaviors and decisions by Mance and his multiple identities and association with magic and glamoring and cucking other men through singing the Dornishman’s Wife multiple times. These aren’t imagined. His last name Ray-Dar line Day-ne. Martin gives us all these clues for some reason. What’s your theory for all this: It’s a coincidence he’s great w the two handed sword. It’s a coincidence that he and Arthur are great diplomats. It’s a coincidence that Arthur protected Lyanna and Mance ends up saving fake Arya who was probably real Arya under an earlier draft of the plot. It’s a coincidence that Martin saturates visiting Mance with references to the underworld and visiting the dead. Their last name similarities are coincidence. Mance being the right age to be Arthur is a coincidence. Arthur having the Arthurian name Arthur is a coincidence and not a clue he was Rhaegar’s father. it’s a coincidence that Mance saves Jon from Rattleshirt who wants to kill him three times. It’s a coincidence that Mance becomes the Lord of Bones. And we could go through a dozen more of these. Your entire argument consists of arguing that your opponents have a really high burden of proof bc the theory sounds silly if you made it up without evidence while ignoring that the theory comes from 20 different kinds of evidence and you have a huge burden of showing why Martin has put all this stuff in if he is not making Mance Arthur Dayne. Your entire case is rhetoric shifting the burden to the other side while explaining none of the odd things in the story that demand explanation yourself, bc they are so odd and noteworthy. We’ve explained all these strange clues dropped in by a meticulous author who loves secrets and clues. What does your theory that everything is literal and there are no hidden clues or a secret backstory here explain? How does it make the story better? My theory holds that George Martin has mirrored scenes from the Iliad, Odyssey, and Aneid. That he has drawn on Authorian mythos and the story of Lancelot for Arthur Dayne who sleeps with the Queen and sings about it using the Dornishman’s Wife. If you think that’s a bridge too far maybe you should theorize about Twilight rather than George Martin. I’m not the one who loves secret identities and switched identities and bastards and warring siblings and secret siblings. Who came up with R + L = J or faceless men or who put two Aegons who are sons of the same king in House of the Dragon or two identical brothers who are kingsguard who support opposite sides. That’s all George Martin. I really have a hard time understanding those who accept the brilliance of the Red Wedding and R + L = J but think with the two longest books left in the series there are no secret identities and plot twists left yet that haven’t been revealed in five books or an eight season show that Martin wanted to run five more seasons with fifty more episodes to include his key plot points and plot twists.
I agree to an extent... Modern testing and historical documentation have both shown that penetration of maille by dagger or dirk is.. not particularly easy. This is why gaurders were worn in general because gaps were targeted. So you needed something that could protect the gaps. So while possible, it is what the armor is designed to defeat and typically speaking you are going to need a lot of force if you're going to defeat that armor presuming your weapon is even capable of doing it. Which again is quite questionable considering the armor is designed to defeat those particular weapons. And so a lot of my argument would rest on the fact that it's a very difficult task to begin with, even if you have the physical strength and the proper weaponry. And I don't think howland has either of those in his pocket. Now, granted, I'm not a full professional expert or anything like that and I probably would need to consult some of the people in the armored fighting community who are actual historians and experts to get the 100% picture. But to the best of my knowledge , it is rather unlikely just because the armor was designed to defeat those types of attacks.
Howland stopped Arthur with words not violence.... Howland is married to Ashara.... Meera is their daughter.... INDEEPGEEK has a video series that breaks it all down..... when Meera and Jojen are telling Bran about the tourney at Harrenhall explains a lot.. plus Look at their introductions at Winterfell..... Meera is introduced first....a Dornish tradition.... Ashara is from Dorne....
So I have to say I did see that video. But I find it to be very much a fan fiction that cannot really be supported by anything in the text.. Far from being like an explanation or a counter to other theories.It's just like a fun story that doesn't really have anything to back it up. Now I'm not saying I can prove that he was killed with a fishing net. I just can show you a lot more evidence in text that would lead us to that conclusion. So that's why I tend to lean on the net as opposed to alternative theories.
@Manofthewhiteknife Dude thats a really weird response ngl.. Like who is the weird performance arrogance for? Is it for me cuz like, not particularly impressed tbh... makes you seem like you can't hold a conversation, or like my incredibly benal comment about an idg video upset you or something. There's no there's no need to put on a weird performance man. It's okay to just be normal lol
I do feel that you underestimate the effectiveness of a dagger against fully armored foes. There are a few methods of fighting a knight decked out in full armor. One is cutting or piercing through the openings of the armor, usually by the joints. Or you deal blunt force damage to them. Let's get blunt force out of the way first. You know how American Football players still suffer brain damage even though they wear helmets? Kinda the same deal here. You still feel a lot of the blunt force through the armor even if the armor mitigates the damage. It's why swords do so badly against armor. Their weight is balanced evenly across the blade instead of concentrated in one place like with a mace, so you rarely feel the impact of the full weight of the weapon. Also why greatswords are among the better swords to use against armored foes, though I'd still reckomend actual blunt weapons such as maces or warhammers if you look to use blunt force to beat a armored foe. Second method is cutting at the openings of the armor. Usually with a polearm specialized for that such as halberds or billhooks, but also through sword techniques such as half handing, where you grab the blade with the other hand to more precisely aim for the openings of the armor. Surprisingly a dagger is a very viable option here, as it's easier to aim at the openings due to having to get up close and all up in the knights business. You do need to be armored though, as a rando with a knife probably won't survive long against a fully armored knight. Nor am I saying you should start out the knife immediately. Save it for when your opponent is really close and drop your current weapon to pull out the dagger, or do it when you have pinned them down. But I swear, daggers can be quite the anti armor weapon if used properly, perhaps even better than a sword.
I definitely get that.It's a bit subjective, my interpretation. However I have fought in armor for almost three years at this point up until my recent injury flare up. And doing both buhurt and hema style harness fighting. I stand very strongly by my opinion. It is pretty darn difficult to hit a highly skilled fighter who is moving and countering, in a voided area and get that penetration to happen. Definitely not saying it's impossible tons of people died that way in real life. But for a small guy on a heavily armored moving target when that target is an expert swordsman.. Personally i'm gonna go with the net every time especially if i'm not wearing armor.. (On a side note approaching a man in full armor who is wielding a great sword when you're not wearing any or just light armor also just an excellent way to get yourself killed.. now a net.. These have been historically used by less armored opponents to take down more heavily armoured opponents, see galdiatorial match ups)
Interesting theory and a good video. I have one small nitpick though: Chainmail is actually very weak against stabbing. A concentrated point of impact with ample velocity will separate the rings. Chainmail only really provides good protection against slashing. Now if the have plate armor over the chainmail, like I think you mentioned, then that's a horse of another color.
Common misconception, chain irl does a better job than GRRM martin gives it credit for, padded cloth plus chain offers very decent stabbing and slashing protection against lighter weapons and even spears but can't stand up to hammers and really heavy weapons, hence the evolution to plate armor. But even in ice and fire chain is quite protective against low powered stabs, Reed being a tiny man is gonna have a hard time knifing a moving target. When I train in armor (melee in particular) the marshals of the fights have to stand way back because an armored person with a sword can so easily accidently hurt someone. They use big yellow poles with flags. Reed would most likely get blasted by Dayne with a kill strike intentionally or on accident (a person wielding a great sword not something easy to approach from most angles) I can't really see a man who is know specifically for being able to fight lots of people at once, wielding a 6ft sword would let a unarmed nobody shank with a knife them mid flurry of battle. As for the Kingsguard I realized on a re-read that they are actually in scaled brigs, so rather similar to a regular brig, in that its a series of overlapping plates. Very stab and slash resistant but less so that a full harness would be. So technically I was wrong on type of armor. Full plate armor is superior. Scale is still extremely protective and easier to maneuver in. And for our purposes well beyond what Reed could defeat.
@@randominternetguyoffical It's not a misconception. Of course if you aren't thrusting hard you won't break the rings, that's why I specifically said "...with ample velocity...". UFC type fighting for sport is nothing like a real war or battle where your opponent's intention is to literally kill you. Nothing is held back in war, in sport people are actively trying not to issue fatal blows.
@@johronok4067 I dont personally do do ufc I do buhurt granted buhurt isn't about targeting unarmored points (well unless you're at a tournament then you bash fools in their meaties) but certainly gives you an decent idea of battle, especially in larger events. You can see how the weak points would be attacked.. however ive also done hema style harness fighting, where you are targeting the weak points of peoples harnesses. So while I have not killed anyone in a battle I have done the next best things. So I speak from personal experience as best I can on armored fighting. As for mail, its a well proven thing that mail is very stab resistant. Its even used specifically to resist shark teeth, sharks incidentally deliver a lot of force at great speed when they bite and have very pointed teeth. Additionally I own mail and have tested its stab resistance and its not even riveted. My buddies make mail and I've seen them stab test it. It's true that large heavily driven penetrating weapons can punch through mail and even plate but daggers are not really that. Even cloth and leather armor offer pretty decent stab resistance far more than one might expect against knives.
@@randominternetguyoffical Modern chainmail is usually a much higher quality of steel than what was produced in antiquity. It's called crucible steel, and those few who could make it way back then pretty much had legendary weapons/armor compared to everyone else. Crucible steel can flex much more than regular steel and thus is way less likely to break under pressure. I was never talking about knives though but rather full-sized weapons and arrows. An English longbow with a draw weight of like 180lbs, which was a common weapon of war, will guaranteed send an arrow right through those rings. Especially when fired upwards to where the arrow falls from the sky. As far as the shark thing goes that's more of a mesh than what traditional chainmail was so it's not quite the same. Plus, again, we have a much higher average quality of steel these days. I'm not saying that it's impossible for chainmail stop a good stab but it is generally more susceptible to stabing/piercing.
@@johronok4067 Knowing smiths who forge with traditional methods as well as modern ones and smiths who are metal experts, and knowing professional medieval historians, I still must disagree on the defensing properties of mail.. That aside tho, Howland neither has the strength nor as far as we know the skill to use a longbow. There's to textual reason to believe he shanked Dayne. Its really only a show thing and accurate to the text the show is not lol
Arthur isn't dead. Ned describes it as "Would have kill me if not for Howland Reed", never mentioned killing him. In fact it seem more like Arthur was about to deliver finishing blow on Ned before Howland stopped him, probably with words and Arthur rode away from the Tower of Joy alive.
Ned on his way back returned the sword Dawn to the House of Dayne out of respect for Arthur. No matter what was said, I doubt the Sword of the Morning would have left it behind.
@@Busrayne 1. if you want to fake the death of someone that important and famous, returning his famous sword to it's family is a very good a public way to do it. 2. It's another instance of we are told that Ned did this but if House Dayne was in on the plan they could easily say "Oh yeah, he brought that back. It's totally still being kept in Star Fall".
@@Busrayne It goes off the idea he's is a part of Ned's plan to protect R+L child (Jon or whoever). Some theories think he could be Mance Rayder, or he will simply show up to help Jon, or will show up somewhere else in story. Basically the people Ned brought in on his plan where Howland, Arthur, Ashara (Also faked he death, body never found) and probably Benjin. I mean why would benjin join Night's Watch after Roberts Rebellion after the deaths of most of his family unless maybe it was part of the long term plan to eventually send Jon there to.
WELL... after all these videos on youtube and forum treads about the "tower of joy" and "r + l = j", i have a little important thing to say: THE TOWER OF JOY DOESNT EVEN EXIST! IT WAS A FUCKING DREAM! Remember guys all the dreams we get from characters inside the story: what they show us!? Facts? Memories? Fears? Hopes? Personal impressions? THE ANSWER IS ALL THESE THING TOGETHER! Remember how jaime dreamed of he and brienne naked inside castely rock: that one happened? Will happened? No way! So people stop misundertanding whats happening! The Neds dream about lyanna a bed of blood a promise a tower of joy three kingsguard is not Memory: ITS A DREAM!
Idk, Ned thinks about it outside of dreams. So I feel like its gotta be real lol I think sometimes the narrators are reliable, obviously there's important aspects that are entirely dream, like remembering the kingsguards faces and not his friends, but we should take neds thoughts and dreams in totality with some seriousness given that we have no reason to doubt the parts he thinks about consciously
What makes you think that arthur dayne was killed...ned doesnt say or think he killed arthur dayne...text even suggest that he might be alive. and does anyone wonder why george mention it was 3 against 7 2 times in that dream, almost like it refers to some other 7 we know,like the gods. Just a thought
So if you're curious I do do a small series where I go into the idea that Arthur Dane survived and became Mance Rayder and I don't know if that's the theory you're thinking of but it's one That I did look at. I found it to be unconvincing. I don't think that there is any text evidence that supports Dayne being alive. But also I have yet to be presented any sort of narrative reason for Arthur to be alive that makes any sense so I'm just really hesitant to buy into an idea that doesn't have any supporting evidence and doesn't really make any sense with the story that already exists. That said theres probably several Dayne is alive theories out there, so maybe theres one that makes some sense and I haven't been introduced to it yet (?)
Or is it that Hpwland went and talked to Lyanna while the others were jawing or maybe even fighting and got her to tell the Kings Guard to stop fighting before she died after child birth. But before she died she made them all promise to keep her son safe. Then they made a deal for Dayne & the others to go to the wall where Dayne became Mance Rayder & the other two KG became Tomrmund and Half Hand. They all left and took Lyanna and Rheagar's newborn Aegon - named to replace the son killed by the Mountain, to Starfall. There Ned got to see his twin children that he had with Ashara (to whom he was married between the tourney at Harrenhall and the would have been wedding of Catelyn and Brandon Stark) , Jon and Val. Arthur, now Mance took his niece Val with him and Ned took his son Jon home to Winterfell and Ashara became Septa Lemore and took Aegon to the East to protect him from King Robert. HT TOoftheGH
Long response coming up here, i'll try to answer all those theories, but its gonna be the short version.. which is still long lmao I would say two things about Lyanna being able to intervene, one being, if she's dying in child birth thats a hard sell that sehe got up, let alone walked down a tower and yelled at a bunch of dudes killing each other. Second tho, its really hard to hear when you're in that kinda fight. I do armored combat and all the time theres problems with getting fighters to stop fights when marshals call it. Its just hard to hear in helm and these are men locked in a death battle, any misstep is a painful end on a blade. No one can or is stopping this fight. I'll do a video on Dayne = Rayder on day but basically its impossible for the kingsguard to have been walled. A ton of knights (including old ser alastor) were from kingslanding or lived near by or served the king directly, etc. The kingsguard are not getting to or staying on the wall, someone would sell them out or someone would notice them and word would spread. Rayder also was picked up as a wildling kid and grew up on the wall. People who are still alive raised him, like literally raised him. The old bear, maester amon, etc, basically anyone who had been there 35 years or more. (Garad from the GOT prolouge for example) would have known him and no one ever says anything other than that he was at the wall as a kid and raised into a ranger by the black brothers. Additionally I believe the Half-hand has been at the wall since before Roberts Rebellion, but even if he hasn't same problem with being recognized and outed. No one has ever made mention of it, or thought about it. Ned thinks about the Tower and the Promise and Dany in regards to each other and in dreams, but he never associates john with the tower or lyana in the text (show is different but in the text ned never associates them) Ned never thinks about the Kingsguard or his old friends (who also could not likely have gone into hiding as several were known figures) as anything other than dead, in fact he specifically describes them as dead by saying that only he and howland lived and by saying he burried all of them. He thinks all of this to himself in text so its not as though hes lying to anyone. Lastly Toramound has a bunch of kids of a huge variety of ages, hes a life long known figure and has a huge reputation among wildlings, theres no way he;s a kingsguard, its literally impossible for him to be all these places at once, and The White Bull is a well known guy in old town, he is in fact a Hightower. He can't have grown up both places and had a reputation and life in both places. Touramound is Touramound, Mance is Mance and the Half Hand is the Half Hand. Its not like Hagar or the faceless men, 99.9% of characters in the books are who they say they are, or more specifically who the text says they are. Rheagars new born was not named Aegon.. he already had an Aegon. Idk where the Rheagar Foreman syndrome theory came from but its really odd lol Like my man did not get boxed in the dome till he started naming all his kids george.. or in this case aegon The three heads of the dragon have a girl a boy then a girl, thats the order of the OG targ three, thats the way it plays out. Maester Amon also tells us that Dany is the third head and that everyone was wrong, and Dany is the only character to dream about Rheagar and the only targ alive to be associated with him. So like id listen to an R+L=D and speculate on that, but in the books we can rule john out as a targ (again books and show are way different and we should not expect a similar ending) Okay last one lol Neds odds of banging ashara are low he shares his tent with howland reed, where as brandon does all the sweet talking to her and is known for his ability to bang chicks, LAdy Dustin talks about him taking her v card and bein a huge playa. it was most likely brandon that knocked up ashara and john probably is a stark, thats probably why he's always thinking about not bein a stark but he dreams aobut the crypts and his internal conflict is about being a bastard, so what if he's not, etc. End of the day we only have the text to go off so if theres no text supporting or saying something happened it probably happened the way the book says. The author is crafty but he's not 100% facelessmaning, alter ego, person sawping every character, most folks is who they are. Anywho, like i said ill go into way more detail on the dayne = rayder thing in a deep dive video (idk when but one day lol)
ive seen a few too, and i never liked them because most (the dayne = mance ones) rely on the black brothers (like every one of them) lying about mance being brought to the wall as a child, since hes the bastard of a rapist crow and a wildling woman who lived near the wall. And lying about and or forgetting that he grew up and became a top ranger at castle black... the ones that didn't rely on that had no textual support and relied on unsupported extrapolation, like if so and so did x so and so might have done x.. and like fan fic is cool but imo fan theory needs textual support.
@@roshanjohns1540 I never found it strange that he knew the song. Ned and Sansa both think about times when bards came to winterfell and mance claims to have been over the wall a bunch so he could have picked it up in his travels. Another potential is that someone oh was sent to the wall from dorne or the reach or the stormlands or the riverlands, etc could have taught it to him. I kinda feel like since its about banging a dornishmans wife its written by people in the reach or stormlands cuz they were always at war with dorne and like what better way to stick it to that darn dornish than banging their wives. I think its exaclty the kind of bawdy song that folks at the wall would sing. but again thats just my option based on the text, I could be missing something.
@@randominternetguyoffical the second passage is from acok in bran chapter ned says dayne killed me but for Howland reed that's the mystery we can assume in both way ned killed Arthur or holland tells something or beg for stop the fight that's the problem because grrm also said that Ned was not greatest swords man like his brother or dayne but he greatest battle commander.so i doubt that
@@roshanjohns1540 This is why I think Reed was clutch with the net. Theres no way the fight was stopping, way to much chaos and bloody murder. So Ned would have been on teh defensive tryin not to be murdered by the far supirior dayne. At this point Reed would net him at which point he "Would have killed me but for Howland Reed" (i might be mixing up a word or two there) Im just hard against the fight stopping option in particular because thats just not how armored fights work. GRRM has never fought in a melee or profight (armored MMA match) as far as I know but he is interested in accuracy in armor. Ive done both and I was just on the sidelines of a profight between my friends. We had to boot one of them in the head to get him to stop the ground and pound. Everyone was yelling (so like 12 adults) and the marshal was waving his stick in their faces... idk to me its not happening with words. Howland saved him in combat, the only way I can think of is with a wacky tactic, like the net. After all Jamie claims Dayne could 1 V many like it was nothing, Reed ain't getting in that sword range and making it out alive imo.
For a long time I thought something like Pod did to shagwell, i.e. rock or distraction or something. But then I thought about if I had to answer this questions using only chapters that had a Crangog character in them... its the net... and like if it isn't GRRM fucked up cuz he set it up so hard lol
@@randominternetguyoffical I guess we will never find out since we will never see WoW. It's not my fault you can't see the obvious clues GRRM gave. Ned was a brilliant tactician but a slightly better than mediocre fighter, no way he killed The Sword of the Morning. Fever dreams are funny things.
@@peteperkins3859 I actually did a short series on the Dayne is alive idea, cuz I got a lot of feedback about that in this video. Sad to say it's poorly supported and full of holes, but still a fun romp through a fanfic! If you're curious in watching the debunk check it out and you can tell me if I left out any of the common thoughts on Dayne being alive. And don't forget to watch out for nets!
I think George was going to write it the same way D & D did. Further explaining Neds embarrassment about Jon's origins. That is, Ned is ashamed of how the fight went because his ways are the old ways.
I would say two things about the idea that D and D got it right 1) GRRM being a tv writer often writes ambiguously with an open end so as to be able to resolve things if he chooses. So tbh the most likely option is that even GRRM doesn't know what happened at the TOJ per say lol 2) D and D are the hackest of hackish hack writers. (probably a whole video series could be done as to why they suck on every level as writers) and as such hackish hackoffs I doubt that they could come up with anything more interesting that the most washed up style of backstab ever.. GRRM is just a way way way better writer and cares about fight scenes (I mean hes a fat old dude, so like if you do armored combat or hema or what have you its easy to say hes not perfect) If GRRM was writing the scene he'd keep more consistency with his won vision of how knight fights go, in which case I don't think a Howland backstab is the level of weak weak sauce he'd come up with. But that said GRRM is human and all writers can write suck shit even if their accomplished. Likely we'll never see what happened in text so its all up to speculation!
@@randominternetguyoffical you're putting the cart before the horse. GRRM doesnt write ambiguously for the sake of the TV show people, the TV show people love him because he writes that way. His writings, especially about the historical events in ASoIaF, reflect how our actual history is recorded with innaccuracies, contradictions and biases presented as factual information from various sources.
@@pyramidion5911 I think you misread what I said a little bit I said George was a TV writer because he was a TV writer back in the eighties when he wrote on several television series. But additionally it's not a writing tactic that's unique to George it's just one that also applies to screen writing. I will say that what you're describing is the writing process he used for fire and blood but he didn't write ice and fire with the intention that it would be read as some kind of fictional history.
idk, According to the text, everyone fought in "a rush of steel", Ned built stone graves and buried everyone and Ned says "he would have killed me, if not for Howland Reed." So we know that it was at the end a Dayne v Ned fight with Howland in the wings somewhere. Probably everyone was dead or dying on the ground at that point. So since the text also makes a big deal about armor being hard to get through (specifically for weak ass folks like little old howland) and since the text makes a big deal about Dayne's skills, (Jamie specifically thinks Dayne is a great multi person fighter) I don't see any way a dagger could have been used. Additionally I don't believe an un armored (or lightly armored) man like Howland could or would get in between armored fighters. Idk if you've grappled for fought in armor much but if youre in raw skin, or even leather and chain, its a death or serious injury sentence for sure. We also never see a cranog person use a dagger, we see frog spear, cranog bow and net. Bow and Spear cant peirce mail according to the text so that leaves literally only the net, which we see used to take down an armored person. Unless were making assumptions that have no textual support the net is really the only option. Basically anything else, because it has no textual support is no more or less likely than say, Howland killing Dayne with an SMG, theres no evidence of it, but theres nothing explicitly saying he didnt lol End of the day the text is all we have, imo
@@randominternetguyoffical true but it’s safe to assume that Ned would have given Holland a dagger and sword, after all it was a war, and the checky lion famously killed an armoured Lannister king wielding bright roar (Valyrian steel) by stabbing under the arm and killing him, it’s safe to assume that Holland’s chances of performing this same manoeuvre are in fact increased by his small stature and mobility since he had less armour, Arthur was probably about to swing downward at a kneeling Ned and Howland came from behind and stabbed him under his arm where the armour is at its weakest
My two points of objection would be. 1) If Reed got the kill, Everyone would think/know that Reed got the kill. There's no rational reason for Ned to take the credit and there's no rational reason for Howland to not take the credit. Ned however has the credit, so we should assume that given that he has said credit he did said deed. The scenario we're left with has two parts Ned killed Dayne and Reed saved Ned. So imo it would have to involve Howland doing an intervention and Ned doing the killing. We know Dayne to be a master swordsman who can face down and kill multiple men at once and thus a melee intervention is basically impossible if Howland wants to his organs and limbs to remain associated with his body. 2) There's absolutely no textual evidence or hints for anything like a dagger or a sword being used. There are however tons of hints and examples of how the Cranogmen fight and how they engage in close combat. For example, Meera Reed uses her net in the Winterfell Gods Wood to take down Summer and she uses it to take down Sam in Armor, while noting that her frogspear couldn't penetrate the armor he's wearing.
@@randominternetguyoffical why did I think Howland was like his son and had the sight? I was under the assumption he did and that’s how he know when and how to kill dayne? And that Ned taking credit was purely to keep things on the right track for Ned and the coming events in the next two decades? Dang I’m off!
@@lmm8960 I get the reeds mixed up all the time lol But yes, his son is the green seer of sorts (i knida feel like hes just a dream receptacle for blood raven or wierwood time traveling bran, like hodor but without the mind frying just dream sending) The book is explicitly very vague about the TOJ fight and I honestly never think we will get a straight answer from martin. But I like to think we can rule out all the stuff we can and them whip up a theory outta that, so this was my best guess as to what went down. I wish we had another chance inside neds mind, maybe Bran will get us a glimps of his past again like the wierwood jump where he tried to talk to ned.
The "Tower of Joy" is a lie. It's a cover up and all of those characters are alive AS other characters. On top of that, the death of Ashara Dayne is a lie too. They found Balon Greyjoy's body after a brutal storm, but not here's? Nope, another convenient story. (She is Quath by the way). Well, those are my hot takes, but then again I am made of pure evil.
Lol, then evil must be ASoIaF thing lol, cuz i've heard several iterations of that theory. I can apricate some evil tho. I certainly agree that Asharas death is most likely a lie, she's either Lamore or Quaith imo, idk which, Quaith is my first guess, cuz close to Danny and such. As for the Kingsguard, they are most most def dead. I'm actually putting together a debunk of that theory. However long story short there is no actually textual evidence for it and every pillar of that theory is riddled with holes, like the worm eaten wood described on the raggediest of hulls f ships in the poormans harbor in Bravoss.
She's not Quaith. Ashara has hauntingly beautiful eyes and that's literally the only physical feature you can see of Quaith. You'd think someone would mention it. Ashara is probably married to Howland in the Neck. The Neck would be an ideal place to hide and start a new life. Its nearly impossible to find the castle of Greywater Watch. Besides that there are sooo many clues. Ashara gets pregnant at the Tourney at Herrenhal. Everyone assumes it was by Ned or Brandon Stark but Howland was also sharing their tent. Mira is described as being slightly older than Robb which means she was born during Roberts Rebellion. We hear nothing of Howland having a wife at this point. And even if he did, he had spent the last year on the Isle of Faces and didn't return to the Neck until after the war. So Mira's birth fits in with the timeline of Ashara getting pregnant at Herrenhal. When Mira is introduced she's named as the heir to Greywater Watch. Under Northern customs inheritance passes over a first born daughter to a first born son, meaning Jojan should be the heir. However, Mira is specially named as the heir. The only place in Westeros where inheritance passes to the the first born regardless of gender is in Ashara' homeland of Dorn. When Mira tells the story of Herrenhal, it is clearly told from her fathers perspective. Everyone is given a nickname, such as The Quiet Wolf, The She Wolf, The Pup, The Red Snake. Even Howland is referred to as The Little Crannogman. Only one person is named specifically and that's Ashara Dane. Barristan Selmey was also in love with Ashara. At the end of Dance, he gives a monologue about Quentyn. He compares him to mud and that someone like Danny would pick fire over mud every time. He's projecting his belief that Ashara picked the hot blooded Brandon Stark at the Tourney of Harrenhal while completely overlooking someone like Howland the Crannogman. And what are Crannogman also referred to? Mud men. Lastly, Howland's wife's name is Jyanna. Its a pretty big coincidence that her name is a mix between Jon and Lyanna.
@@geoffreygreenstein4941 Why don't the reed kids have her eyes then? Also howland and ned share a tent, leaving Brandon the only free wang wondering around lookin to make babies. additionally howland is like kid sized (squires are bigger than him and beat him up) idk if he's doin any wooin at harrenhall, plus he may already be married... Jyana Reed is his wife according to text and appendixes.. So the author would have to be lying rather than omitting in text and we know of no instance in which GRRM lied about information rather than omitting it so as to keep it a mystery. But after all that, Ashara marrying howland reed is completely divorced from the story in every way, like I would literally mean and do nothing to forward the narrative, plot, meaning, anything really for the text itself. Lastly, mud is a really really common word, thats a huge unsupported leap, after all theres a house Mud in the riverlands, maybe a decendant of house mud knocked her up or maybe it was a person covered in mud? If we take one word it could literally be anything. They're hidden things all over the text, but every word isnt a clue or a hidden piece, and every character isn't always someone else or doing some huge secret. Extrapolation to the point of absurdum is funny sometimes but it can solve no mysteries in Ice and Fire
@@randominternetguyoffical The Reed kids don't have her eyes because they inherited their fathers features. Simple as that. Eye color isn't always an indication of parentage. There were several Targaryen kings and princes that didn't have purple eye. Instead they got the dark features of their Dornish mothers. Roberts bastards all got his features and Jon looks like a Stark. There's no saying who will inherit what features. Maybe I'm remembering wrong but I feel like most people believe the deed with Ashara went down in the Stark tent. Everyone assumes that it was Ned or Brandon and always overlooks the little guy (literally). This goes back to Barristan's speech. He assumes the girl will alway pick the big tough guy but his judgement is jaded by his personal beliefs. Who's to say that Ashara didn't fall in love with Howland. Everyone takes the easy route and assumes the obvious. It fits into Martin's writing style to give you the obvious answer first and then slowly reveal the truth. I don't understand your argument about lying versus omitting in regards to her identity. Martin tells us through Varys that Aegon is the son of Rhaegar when he's probably in actuality a Blackfyre. Literally the last thing that has happened in the series is Martin lying about someones identity. I agree that Ashara being married to Howland doesn't do much to further the plot. It does, however, fit well into the back story and we know the Martin loves to world build. Ashara probably knew what happened at the Tower of Joy. What better way to protect her and Jon's identity than to send her to live at an impossible to find castle with Ned's reclusive and most trusted friend. I agree that not every word is a clue or hidden message but I find Barristan's analogy really out of place. Knowing his love for Ashara I think Martin is hinting at something. Martin chooses his words pretty carefully. Fire in the analogy makes sense in the context of the story but why mud? Just seems too big of coincidence to me. I don't subscribe to many tin foil theories. I generally only really buy into the commonly excepted theories that are basically confirmed at this point. But I do think there is more to this one than any evidence for Ashara being Lamore or Quaith. Ashara was known for her beauty and her eyes. Lamore is described as handsome. Not exactly how I would describe a great beauty. And nothing is ever mentioned about Quaith's eyes which are the only feature of her's you can actually see. Finally, I don't think Martin will ever actually reveal if Ashara is really alive. I think this is one where's he's left a bunch of bread crumbs and challenges the reader to come to their own conclusion. Unless anything substantial comes out in Winds (if there ever is a Winds) then we can debate all day. Hopefully all in good fun.
@@geoffreygreenstein4941 Im talking about Jyana Reed. She's listed as Howlands wife in both the text and the appendices. So you would have to be claiming that the author is lying in the appendix to confuse the reader That's a silly claim. But on top of that there is no reason to doubt that Dayne, "looked to Stark". It makes sense with how Brandon is described as well. I agree that George will probably never reveal where Ashara is, which is unfortunate to me.
