#rayderisdayne #iceandfiretheory #analysis Patreon 😸 patreon.com/user?u=80421914&u... Buy Me A Coffee ☕ www.buymeacoffee.com/manofthemoc Sorry Folks, he just isn't Dayne
There is literally no way logistically that could have even happened. And also like why? What purpose would that serve? It would diminish the backstory of a great character?
@@lukaslambs5780 I had all the same objections but I kept hearing it so I was like... I guess I should address this lol I think it totally ruins the mystery and charisma of Mance as a character too, like why would the Author toss a good character idea in favor of a "hes a dead man twist"
Most of these theories I don't believe but I love those channels that just go for the most out there theories. Order of Green Hand and Preston Jacobs are two of my favs
Im a pretty huge skeptic myself of most theories, that said I adhere like 80% to Preston, lmao Everyone else finds him tinfoil but I was reading GRRM books outside of Ice and Fire too for a while so I share a lot of his thoughts on the author and his writing nature. Once I read everything in the 1000 worlds when he was doing book club, I became firmly lodged in the camp that hes the only theorist worth his salt out there. I dont 100% agree, like with a few things I think theres either less or more going on, but he's more on the money imo that most. Greenhand I usually never agree lol
I’m an N+A=J guy and love TOotGH, but they should take a page from Preston and compare the books with Martins scifi instead of analyzing it in a vacuum. LML’s symbology is schizo tier and I love it
@@randominternetguyoffical Tbh, I think even of some of the theories are crackpot, they at least have some entertainment value and inspire people to just look deeper and from a different perspective at the books, which makes it more engaging. Take R+L=? for example. I mean, if the showrunners haven't made stuff up because it was more convenient for what they were running for, yeah, R+L=J may be the real deal, but it is kind of the most boring theory out there, because it is the easiest possibility anyone could possible come up with in terms of speculating on anything in the books. Its a conclusion that is nearly reached nearly be default because Keannu Reeves got the have special parents that make him the chosen one. Going wild with theories at least creats excitement.
Your spot on about the dornish mans wife dude, plus even if only dornish people knew that song the previous lord commander (before Mormont) was dornish anyway and could have sung it around the castle
@@randominternetguyoffical well "Rheagar" was killed wearing ruby encrusted armour. Ruby= glamour he wasn't the real Rhaegar but an illusion. Second time someone died under a glamour spell for Mance/Rhaegar Rattleshirt being the second, and one of the kingsguard for him at the trident the first time. Mance is a bard like Rhaegar, has real kings blood, and keeps an eye out for jon his son.
That means a bunch to me! I've been a big thrones and theory fan for ever so I thought Id take a look at one that I thought was kinda shakey. Guess i better goin on part 2 lol
@@varamyr_ I would defiantly be interested in tacking that one, its a toughy for sure. Im a big preston jacobs fan and he thinks hes alive but i was never totally sold on it..
lmao, I love this! Tbh its basically the logic behind most theories tho... I was just watching one about how Jaqen is Rhaegar..? like whaaaaaat.. but folks love it apparently
One problemm with your brilliant video......the Dayne's sometimes have silver-to-white hair........ and stress can cause someone's hair to turn grey/white, or even fall out. But I do believe you have a point. Thorne would have known what Dayne looked like so you are probably right
I think its the brown turning to grey that seals it, at least for me. We basically see that Mance was a brown haired man but he has a aged a fair bit. At least that's my interpretation.
@@randominternetguyoffical I haven't read the book in years, so I dont even remember the brown to white part, but it just adds to your argument. I see your points and you've changed my mind. Like I said, you did an awesome job laying out your points and you made a great video series. I look forward to your next video.
@@keirangrant1607 tbh, I hadn't remembered it either, but it defiantly helped me make up my mind. Im really glad you enjoyed the video as well, hope to have some more out soon
@@randominternetguyoffical Darkstar, his cousin, has some dark hair in his silver ones. It's perfectly plausible Arthur had combination of dark and silver hair all his life.
That means a lot to me. I like Ice and Fire theories and vids a ton myself. I'm defiantly gonna be putting out more stuff on Ice and Fire, the follow ups to this and hopefully some more readings.
@@randominternetguyoffical u should man, show tanked interest but with all the news of house of dragon and 'dunk and egg' adventure 4 coming out i can see more people looking into this.
Let's look at the actual quotes from Ned's fevre dream of the Tower of Joy suggesting that the three kingsguard won and survived: The dream cuts away in the book just as the three kingsguard and Ned’s seven come together “in a rush of steel and shadow.” But we need to exactingly analyze the language that Ned uses before that. Ned describes his own men who died at the tower of joy twice each as “shadows” and “wraiths.” Here is the first time: "In his dreams his friends rode with him….They were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist. Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three." Ned also narrates that he can no longer remember their faces. But the three men of the kingsguard who face them are described as alive, with living faces! "And these were no shadows, their faces burned clear even now." So when they come together in a rush, it is three men whose faces burn clear even now bearing steel clashing with five shadows, five wraiths who are now dead.
Now lets look at the language in the chapter where Jon meets Arthur Dayne making it a trip to the underworld / meeting with "dead" men: The chapter begins with Jon being led by the Lord of Bones to meet the Wildling king, Mance Rayder, on a trip downward and downward from the Skirling Pass atop the Frostfangs (where Jon was captured) down to the frozen Milkwater. Journey to the Underworld In classical epics, such as the The Odyssey and The Aeneid, there is a chapter when the hero enters the underworld and confronts ghosts from the past. Mythologist Jospeph Campbell went so far as to identify this as one of the key steps on the Hero’s Journey. The march that Jon is led on is suffused with imagery suggesting a journey to the underworld and encountering the denizens of the dead: "The world was grey darkness… Pale mists rose from the black earth…, He was all in black, the black of the Night’s watch. Rattleshirt had Qhorin’s bones in his bag, along with the bloody head of Ebben…. Dead, all dead but me, and I am dead to the world. The Lord of Bones had made two of them his guards…. Despite his layers of wool and fur and leather, he had felt cold to the bone. Mance’s outriders closed in as the emerged. …They were armed with spears and fire hardened lances all but their leader, a fleshy blonde man with watery eyes who bore a great curved scythe of sharpened steel. The Weeper, he knew at once. ‘Ghost, stay.’ Jon commanded. The tent was hot and smokey. Baskets of burning peat stood at all four corners, filling the air with a dim reddish light…. Jon felt utterly alone…" Note of course that in addition to all the underworld imagery-grey darkness, pale mists, black clothing, the Lord of Bones, Ghost (uncharacteristically) right beside Jon the whole way to Mance’s tent, and hot, smokey, dim reddish light-the weeper is a play on words for the Grim Reaper and he comes complete with a giant scythe.
To add to the point on the Dornish Mans wife the LC before Mormont was from a noble house in Dorne lmao so even if the song is Dornish it doesn't really matter 😂
Someone else brought this up too! I was unaware of it but it certainly plays against he theory. The dornishmans wife part was one of the more laughable parts of this theory imo
"The Order of the Green Hand put this together in the most coherent way" *looks at hands* *checks clock* *reads paragraph of text* *turns lamp on and off* Cool, so that's the reality check done, let's get meth
Also Just because we don't know the fates of Ned's six companions (other than Howland Reed) does not disprove the theory. It just means their fates have yet to be confirmed in the story. Just like the Kingsgaurds fates have yet to be confirmed. For all we know they could have been killed at the tower before Ned came to an agreement at the Tower of Joy or they could still very well be alive in exile as well.
I must've watched this a long time ago, since it was already liked by me. But a refresher was in order. Bc neither part 2 or 3 was liked, so it must've been before they were uploaded.
The big thing with Mance being great with a two-handed sword is not so much that he is but that George Martin takes the time out from the story to show us this fight between Mance and Jon, in which Mance is awesome at wielding a great sword despite saying he is rusty having not used one in years. George Martin is meticulous about including everything in ASOIAF for a reason. This isn't at all true of say, Robert Jordan, in The Wheel of Time, who is otherwise a similar author in terms of worldbuilding, number of central characters, epic scope of story, and even inspiration from Tad Williams and Robert E. Howard. Robert Jordan will digress into long descriptions of hills and places and buildings just because he finds them cool. He'll throw in scenes where characters get drunk and dance just for fun. Not so master short story writer George Martin. Even when he doing something like describing buildings in Braavos through the eyes of Arya he is at the same time telling us about the history of the city, the power structure of who is in charge, buildings that are metaphors and clues for other parts of the story, references to specific places that Arya will come back to for scenes in subsequent chapters. He gives us all the backstory we need for Arya's and Sam's adventures in Braavos and for understanding it's basic politics and for figuring out where Arya is through the rest of her story and even how far apart locations are relative to each other, in his one description of Arya going through the city to find the Temple of Black and White. The question isn't how many outstanding two-handed swordsmen there are or were in the Night's Watch. The question is what is George Martin telling us about his characters and hinting at: Either Mance is lying that he hasn't picked up a two-handed sword in years or, given how masterfully we are shown him wielding it blow by blow, or he was one of the greatest wielders of a two-handed sword who ever lived. Moreover, Mance challenges Jon to this fight. You'd think he would be keeping what a great warrior he is secret from the people who captured him. Why does Mance want to give Jon Snow the message that he isn't really great yet with a blade but that his mortal enemy, the Lord of Bones, is. What Mance is really driving home is that a greatsword like Dawn is an amazing weapon and better than a sword and shield if mastered. It's as though he wants to make sure that Jon learns to use his own bastard sword two-handed rather than one-handed (a bastard sword can be learned and wielded either way, and currently Jon is practicing shield fighting every day which means fighting with the sword one-handed). And that's exactly the conclusion that Jon draws in his own mind: The Lord of Bone would not have beaten me like this (and killed me if it were a real fight) if I was wielding Longclaw Two-Handed. That's exactly what Jon concludes. It's almost as though this point is really important in the story to George Martin because it shows us when Jon switched from one-handed to two-handed sword fighting and decides he has to become a truly great swordsman. It's almost as though Arthur Dayne were around from beyond the grave telling Jon how to become a great swordsman and preparing him to wield the ,magical Dayne two-handed sword Dawn should it show up somehow at the wall. That's why this scene exists in the story at all. This is the difference between approaching the Jon sword-fighting scene deductively for what it tells us about Jon's sword fighting skills now as opposed to inductively from the perspective of why Martin wrote the scene at all and the role it plays in Jon's character development and the additional clues it gives us about Mance Rayder and Jon's future as a swordsman. It also tells us, as I read it, that Mance for some reason doesn't think the role he took on with the wildlings of mentoring and teaching Jon Snow is done. Mance seems to be trying to teach Jon Snow to become a great two-handed swordsman before the Wars to Come in the only way he possibly can now glamoured as the Lord of Bones. Of course, there might be another purpose to the scene: It could also be foreshadowing that in a future book Jon will fight someone else who is like the Lord of Bones, such as a Night's King reborn figure or a leader of the Others, but that next time Jon will be the one fighting two-handed with a great sword. My prediction is that's Dawn and we have Mance Rayder glamoured as the Lord of Bones to thank for his mastery of this weapon when the time comes. (And yes I graduated Order of the Coif from the University of Michigan Law School, with an oralist award. So you're going to have to do a lot better than you have to win this debate on the merits.)
Quorin half handed is Harold Hightower. Tormund has both hands. What are you talking about? The man who drove the boat of Sansa's rescue is Oswell Went
Age is not only a number, but is common in the reading of the book that grr martin uses to put some characteristics of elder age to characters who are younger. Grr martin uses to show elder some people who doesn't.
The theory is interesting but based on tenuous evidence, though it makes me wonder what really happened at the Tower of Joy. There is a lot that doesn't add up about Ned's ToJ dream and the unfortunate scene from the show. Somehow, I doubt these questions will be resolved in WoW.
The theories all use the Dornishman's wife so that's the one I responded too. Personally I believe that Mance knowing songs is very rational because musicians from all over are sent to the wall throughout the years and most people in asoiaf tend to know a few songs from their homelands or upbringings.
A lot of good points something I will point out. 1. The grey hair doesn’t matter they are in the harshest and most stressful climate in the seven and he is taking on the role of political envoy he is going grey early!considering he is having a son with his wildling I would put him around the right age. 2. the narrative of how Mance came about I see similar to how the story passes the story of “how King Robert died.” Most of it is hearsay. This is relevant because Malaster was on the wall for a long time and would have the respect of the Starks to accept a request from Ned the lord of winterfell. Same goes for Mormont he would have had a lot of respect as not only from the watch but as his liege lord. So the story doesn’t matter the person who would have put the kings guard there would have had the power to protect them. The problem with this is thorn and others who would have known them causes issue.
This adds an interesting component to Jon being a prince because it is presumed that mance wrote the pink letter taunting Jon south. Following this rabbit hole. Assuming this is correct Jon retakes winterfell it is brought forward Rob legitimized Jon but instead mance insisted jon is not a stark tells jon who he and ask that he calls howland reed to confirm the truth.
I gave up this theory when I realized that Alliser Thorne would have known Arthur fucking Dayne, sword of the fucking morning lmao case fuckin closed bro
The thing that blows my mind is if you think mance is Arthur, you think jon is a better fighter than Jamie. Arthur Dane was leagues above the best fighter in our story. But jon held his own for a fair amount of time?
@@randominternetguyoffical oh for sure. Also I realized you started the next video on the series with that very argument 😂 You make good videos, can't wait to see more from you.
He didn't. Jon was easily overpowered and Mance mocked him for that. Keep in mind that Mance was older and was holding the specific training sword given to him for the first time. And he is clearly happy about it being the same type of sword as Dawn.
Wait, I'm a little confused. Can you tell me the hints? The song is explicitly anti Dornish and I don't believe we ever hear a Dornish person sing it. So it seemed to me like a pretty straightforward thing.
Small thing, but you state that Dayne is born in 260, but what's your source on this? On the wiki this is mentioned, but as the absolute *latest* Dayne could be born. That's because it's sixteen years after the first time he's mentioned as being kingsguard, and him needing to be older than Jaime at that point, who was the youngest kingsguard ever at fifteen. To the best of my knowledge, he could be born much, much earlier. Not to say any of that proves the theory right, it's a pretty silly one, but the ages could match up, afaik
tbh thats a bit of an error on my end, I read it on the wiki as "born in 260" and then reread it well after the video was out XD Now that said I do think there's some strong indicators that he is exactly that age or near enough that it makes no difference. (I bring up a few of these) So chalk it up to havin to crunch too many numbers lol I also don't script or write anything down, so that may have contributed to the discrepancy.
@@randominternetguyoffical I mean Ashara Dayne is an odd mystery for some seemingly important reason. Aerys loves the hand maids & Ashara Dayne + Aerys = Daenerys is my favorite tin foil. Could this be why the Daynes still like Ned? Dany has only known one thing in her life and it’s that she is Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen. Her being a bastard while Jon not being one is very George and Ice & Fire. Also Dany discovering this could be the thing that pushes her into madness pretty well. 🤷♀️
@@shannond7437 well, i think that in the books viserys has been all his life with Dany since she was born in dragon stone from rhaelle... Think before writting you stupid...
Its in the wiki, based on whats in the appendix of the books. So best material out there. Could be off by a few years but it would need to be off by like a decade or two to get to where he's mances age (judged by hair color, wiki and appendix) Not a perfect system but as good as one can get out of a fiction book series Id say
"were it not for Howland Reed, he would have killed me." It drives me mad how often it is taken as a GIVEN that any of the kingsguard died at the Tower of Joy. GRRM never ever ever ever says that anyone killed Arthur or that he is dead. I'm semi-convinced on the Green Hand's Mance/Quorin/Tormund=Kingsguard theory - I just can't ignore the scene where Mance (glamored as Rattleshirt) kicks the crap out of John like it's nothing....he DOES NOT fight like a wildling/crow random. Mance is the first name mentioned in the books and I have always suspected more to him than it seems. I used to think Mance was Rheagar but Arthur Dayne does make more sense.
So I am rewatching the series and before Stannis burns Mance he says I wish you good fortune in the wars to come. The same line Arthur Dayne says to Ned Stark
"They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. “I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them. “We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered. “Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell. “When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.” “Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.” “I came down on Storm’s End to lift the siege,” Ned told them... and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.” “Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne. “Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.” “Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell. “But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.” “Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm. “We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold. Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three. “And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. “No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.” As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. “Lord Eddard,” Lyanna called again. “I promise,” he whispered. “Lya, I promise “Lord Eddard,” a man echoed from the dark. Groaning, Eddard Stark opened his eyes. Moonlight streamed through the tall windows of the Tower of the Hand...." So thats the passage where we get to hear what Ned and Arthur said (according to Ned) Idk what the show does tbh cuz I didnt see all of it and its been many years since what I did see, but in the books at least that isn't in there. If the show was dropping an easter egg its a weird one cuz they never go in that direction in the show. GOT ends without Dayne being Mance or being a character outside of a flashback and he dies from being stabbed in that flashback. (I did watch that part lol) So my best guess is that people are talking something that didnt mean anything in the show GOT and trying to make it fit into the books? Idk, thats kinda my best thoughts on the matter. I feel like its people making an error. Sorry for the long response, I had the text in front of me and I was like, hey wait I can look this up like rn! XD
@@randominternetguyoffical XD well to my knowledge Martin was involved in the series and the flashback happened after the scene with Stannis. It just could be true.
@@mehmetertugrul2848 Id still find it a bit odd as Martin wasnt involved in the plot direction (hence the large changes) so much as wrote some episodes (i think more than one?) either way DND were pretty free to take the notes and books and do as they pleased. And like they didnt do a Mance is Dayne, so like if they invented something and then dropped it thats not really likely as a book ending unless Martin is retconing himself after being 5 books deep basted on a dropped plot DND came up with XD
@@randominternetguyoffical Martin was the co-executive producer of the series. And he already wrote the books why would he bother writing an episode. And since he published the books he has no way of changing it but if someone comes with an offer to turn it into a tv show he might have changed or added a thing or two.
@mehmetertugrul2848 google tells me that, "the four episodes of Game of Thrones that Martin penned were "The Pointy End" (Season 1, Episode 8), "Blackwater" (Season 2, Episode 9), "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" (Season 3, Episode 7), and "The Lion and the Rose" (Season 4, Episode 2)." He was a producer but he talks about how much he was and wasn't involved in the series in interviews. His greatest influence was in writing the episodes he did (which were a few more than I thought actually). But either way he wasn't adding anything in regards to Mance, Mance dies in the show where as hes currently alive in the books XD He's arguably less Dayne in the show cuz he dies definitavly Mance.. At least in the books the cope can fall back on the ending not being out lol
Right lol, I thought he was like 35-40 at the tower first read through. In a way it knida makes sense tho, I guess. Think peak fighting age of a lot of MMA folks 20s to 30s. He's a trained from the day he could walk to hold a sword. King probably wants a hot young buck by his side rather than a slow grey beard (not that grey beards are always slow, as we see with Selmey, but it seems to be prevailing belief in world) We also see a lot of other folks in their peak between 20 and 30. I think Drogo is like late 20s maybe 30-31so upper end of that spectrum. Probably pretty realistic in some ways.
Do we know Arthur Dayne’s hair color? Some in House Dayne have Valyrian features, so that could explain Mance’s white/grey hair. Although for the record i do not subscribe to this crackpot theory lol
Hmmm, You know... Im not sure we ever get Daynes color. I certainly tried and couldn't find it. Based on other Daynes its probably either black or white, like Dark Star or Edric? Mance is a brown haired fellow like myself, which I think weighs heavy cuz GRRM is big on hair color.
@@randominternetguyoffical I cannot remeber if it's ever specified in the books, but Arthur most likely had very distinctive eyes. His sister Ashara had violet eyes, Gerold 'Darkstar' dark purple and Edric dark blue eyes that appeared almost purple. They are the only non-valyrian family exhibiting those traits. There is no mention of Mance's eyes being of unusual colour or straight up purple and surely such rare thing would be noticed.
@@LusiaEyre I had a similar thought, I couldn't remember if they described his eyes tho. But certainly if Mance had eyes like a Dayne folks would have noticed.
@@randominternetguyoffical Yeah, I think I mentioned it once in the comment section of one of your videos and you said something similar in response. 😅 I do need to warn you though: Their Sarella = Shae video is not just completely crackpot, I would also call a certain aspect of it morally repugnant, and it paints Oberyn in a _really_ awful light. I can go into more detail if you want, but it's actually not that easy to explain in its insanity.
@@tarvoc746 I want to make a response to their take on Catlyn Stark (I guess like the general take that lots of folks have) cuz they seem to have some wack opinions about a lot of characters in the books lol One I've heard a lot of criticism of is there video on the Andols too, tho i haven't seen that one yet
That is true however, it still kinda implies it's not actually a Dornish song, but rather a song sung to mock the Dornish. Which means that its not evidence that a character is from Dorne. So I feel it makes for kinda weak evidence. Or at least too weak to use to support the theory.
@Nope Theres a good company of the cat video on Lemoore. I tend to agree with CotC on the idea that people want her to be someone like Ashara but shes probably not. I do like the Ashara = Quaithe theory and R+L=D but those are very tin. I think the eye color lack is a tell tho, like cuz its a book. Lemoore should have striking eyes if Ashara did. This Mance = theories tho just strike me as particularly wack on all levels 😂
@@nope5023 Howland + Ashara = Meera? Like the In Deep Geek theory? I'm personally in the camp that the Reed kids are Howland and his listed wifes (forgetting her name rn). Narratively I do enjoy R+L=D/A+B=J more than R+L=J, but the likelyhood is low even if its more fun. If were taking about Mance = theories, or Halfhand = theories, I'd say dive in for yourself and examine it if my thoughts weren't enough. I really don't think it holds much water tho reguardless of who you think Meera's parents were
The old bear never says how long he's known mance. And if the by the end of ADWD it's year 300, making Dayne 40 if he was born in 260 as you've said. Ned asks why they weren't at the Sack of Kings Landing (283), or the Siege of Storm's End (283), or on dragonstone when Stannis seized the castle in (284). Ned asks him those 3 things and they said they were "far away". It would make sense that Thorne would have been on the wall in 283 after Robert became King. "Mance Rayder", "Quorn Half Hand", "Tormund" could have been on the wall in 284 after all the people you mentioned, Mance deserts, Tormund could have easily passed through the "Black Gage" with any of their help? I mean maybe Mance does something to his hair like some other exiled (taking the black) lordling does on a boat with his "son". I mean Mance is really good with a great sword when's he "Rattlebones". I mean that's one tough knight to rally all those wildlings.
@@MercedesJordy Any of the older Umbers for sure, but like Dayne isnt known as a ST build he's a dex build, sword skill not bure force. At least according to Jamie who was his fanboi/deciple as much as anyone we see in the series. Breaking shield = dayne is not an evidenced nor rational claim
I do address most of these in the vid, but lets jump back and as from a narrative point what would this do for the story? Other than add unresolved confusion? It really would just add an overly complex unnecessary set of retcons to a already complex and evolving tale. The idea that everyone is Ice and Fire needs to be or should be someone else is way off base from a writing perspective as well as being openly contradicted by appendix, author and text. Evidence and lack there of , plus the debunks speak for themselves but also like, its just completely unfitting in the story and with our author as for griff and young griff, i think the fact that we get to be behind the curtain with their plot an plotters tells against a mance = rhaegar theory. if the M = R was true then we would narratively expect to see it revelated around the same time in some parallel chapters. Jons life has very few if any parallels to griff outside the mysterious parentage.
@@randominternetguyoffical build isn't the be all end all of physical strength. Jamie Lannister is described as tall and athletically built. Most people describing his physicality talk about his speed and agility more than his power. But only some of the most gargantuan warriors we've encountered are on the list of people he's confident are physically stronger than himself the Clegane Brothers, Strongboar, the Great Jon and Brienne. In other words Jaime's not an obvious powerhouse but he's still among the strongest men in Westeros. So that doesn't disqualify the shield splintering as a possible sign that Mance is more than he appears.
@@adamantiiispencespence4012 It's not really evidence of anything other than Mance can use a greatsword... Again breaking a shield doesn't equal Dayne or Soran Shield Breaker would be Dayner by default. Its just want it seems, a better fighter and stronger man, beating a younger, less experienced and currently physically slightly weaker guy. But also like Dayne is never noted as a shield bashing monster, he's known for his shocking skill. You'd think we'd get at least on reference to Dayne breaking shields if that's supposed to be some kind of big tell.
Im 33 and getting my first greys but in grrm books (or like books in general) getting full or mostly grey is a fair indicator of age. I mean I have a homie whos had a grey streak since jr high but like thats hardly a common thing. The grey in mances hair pairs with the other brothers in his bracket of age imo too. Mance as a former brother has parallel brothers in the rangers and on the wall, granted a lot have died tho.
At the point in the story if manse is Arthur then he's spent the last 15 years beyond the wall for the possibility that his true mission might come to be. 15 years of having no one to guard no true objective other than prepare for the long night. At that point I think it's pretty acceptable that he might have fallen for a gal and impregnated her.
Mel saw vision that stannis is azor ahai (i think?)so if artur saw some sort of vision or read some prophecy could do something like that If abd could and then... We need that fuc*ing book
Thing is, they showed us daynes death,through a vision.. or rather a recall of events that happened. So unless the 3 eyed raven lies and distorts these timelines, we know that dayne certainly died at the tower of joy.
So i'm on the train of the show got it right , but they ruined Dayne's death scene... Check out my how Ned killed Dayne video if you wanna see my thoughts, but I believe hat he was killed by Ned and Reed as is stated in the text.
@@randominternetguyoffical to be fair I wish they'd left the mystery in there, merely implying his death opposed to showing it. That'd lend so much foundation to many of theories discussed. Either way I love the content 👍
@@randominternetguyoffical love your Videos Guy, while I agree that Arthur being Mance Raider doesn't add up, I don't believe he died at the tower of joy. The major red flag that points to the official story being false in my mind is the existence of NED Dayne. It's frankly bizarre to me that a women would name her son after the man who killed her extremely chivalrous and just brother for just trying to uphold his oath, and who was ostensibly responsible for her sisters suicide. It gets even weirder when we consider that someone felt it necessary to explain to little Ned that him and Jon Snow shared a wet nurse and they have a special bound because of it. This was so significant that a preteen Ned Dayne mentioned it to Ariea Stark as small talk while he was hanging out with the brotherhood without banners in the riverlands of all places. Just the fact that the child heir to starfell was casually hanging out with a band of bandits half a continent away from his houses seat should make us pay close attention to everything he has to say.
@@SIRslipperyasp91 So totally random question, are you in the Council of Ians? As and Ian myself im obligated to ask XD As to the is Dayne alive point, its weird that Ned thinks of himself in his own mind as defeating Arthur Dayne (which def means killing) but yet fans think hes alive... Like theres not evidence to point to an alive dayne and theres no plot he is really an important aspect or part of that he could jump into if alive. Its a weird romaticsation of what is obviously a dead character. hes like Lord Blackwoods cloak, fun world buidling that fans latch onto super super hard imo. Its all very cart before the horse to make something that doesn really have a place in story or make any sense. Id personally need something, anything to make it fit.. and there just isnt that thing. Why dont we believe Ned, House Dayne and basically the entire world story set up? Like I get that we should question things but its all waaaaaaaaay to unsupported, tangential and just flat out unneeded or undevelop[ed to make a lick of sense. Dayne is just a cool dead dude with a dope sword and he doesnt really to be more that Id say.
@@randominternetguyoffical that's crazy, you definitely seem like a fellow Ian. I'm in love with all of your vidoes man. You've given such refreshingly grounded take on Littlefinger and the [insert character] is Mance Raider theories. As for Arthur. Honestly agree he's meant to be dead currently, if house Dayne ends up having any significance in the final drafts of this story it's going to be through Ned or Darkstar. That's obviously the route Martin is taking given the narrative significance the two young daynes have. Beyond just being an elite goon tasked with keeping Lyanna from Ned I think Arthur's narrative purpose was to show how honor makes good men do bad things, and possibly how significant it would be for another character to assume the title of "Sword of the Morning." I'm really just hung up on NED DAYNE being named NED FREAKING DAYNE. Maybe Ned (Stark type) sparred Arthur and he took his own life as he failed protect his king? Idk you just don't go naming your first born son after the dude who killed your brother in cold blood, or keep mentioning to him that he and this killer's basterd shared a titty at one point.
@@randominternetguyoffical I think Stannis will lose due to the storm, believe it is the work of the Great Other, and be led north of the Wall by Mel to go kill the Great Other and his champions (Bran and Bloodraven she saw in her vision, in the cave, unlike the show that made it the NK's work). Mance will use the opportunity to scheme from within Winterfell and the wildlings will succeed in taking it. I imagine Lady Stoneheart and the BwB and the Vale eventually go north to reclaim Winterfell from the "savages" and possibly from Jon or Rickon (either of whom would be propped up for a Stark + wildling marriage). So, my theory I guess ;)
Random Internet Guy . . . please do a similar google, reddit & quora deep dive analysis on the Ser Gerold Dayne is truly King Viserys Targaryen III. RU-vid's "Ashley of Naath" did a video which laid the foundation for my (f)Viserys theory . . . right after I read page 374 of "Fire & Blood" with the THREE Valyrian blood traits of Ser Laenor Velaryon: 1. Silvery-White hair 2. Aquiline nose 3. Purple eyes. The (f)Aegon theory is much more popular, but there is an ASS of seeds GRRM has planted throughout the aSoI&F books that are persuasively theorized online at quora, reddit and elsewhere that deserve some discussion please!!
@@ashleyofnaath Yes indeed 100% as I loved that presentation so much that I watched it multiple times over numerous months. I had buried it in my memory and w/o any expectation it "clicked" as I read "Fire & Blood" because I knew that I came across those THREE Valyrian blood traits somewhere before . . . but didn't instantly recall where honestly. Archmaester Gyldyne makes note of them as indicia of Royal Targaryen maternity I almost believe but GRRM is much too subtle for that lol. The trio of features are referenced as evincing the Valyrian blood of Laenor Velaryon . . . and we all know who his mother was . . . Princess Rhaenys Targaryen. So why doesn't GRRM want us to know who gave birth to the newborn Gerold Dayne I ask? When was he exactly born (270-274 AC)? Why the dubious bio at all on the Darkstar? It is all, the (f)Viserys theory, on quora, reddit & google . . . my stuff is on quora and I credit you there most recently "Ashley of Naath" :)
Also I don't ever recall hearing a song sung at Castle Black. But it feels strange that a wildling would know so many southern songs. We know of a character close to Dayne who sang a lot, Rhaegar
Biggest evidence against the concept that songs aren't a thing at the wall is Daryion. But like also Mance was a brother for much if not most of his life, the wall is full of people rom the 7 kingdoms, its just unreasonable given how much we see folks all over westeros singing songs that a brother wouldn't know a bunch of songs. Its like assuming the average American joe wouldn't know happy birthday or row row row your boat. Rhaegar singing as evidence that Dayne is mane because Mance sings is goof on the level of the goofy movie
i think you miss some of the more important points of the theory. Tormen Giantsbane has knowledge of what masteors write with. a wildling wouldn't know that. He is also called the husband of bears, lady Mormont is the bear, so there are others involved in the conspiracy. Mace kicks the shit out Jon when they fight. at this point, jon trains fighting three brothers at a time. So what Mace just happens to be as skilled a swordsman as Arthur? And if i remember right in the first description of both Quoran and Oswald they are sharpening their sword when introduced. Plus i do believe N+A=J, or do you think Dragons have wolf dreams. Not consistant with themes of the book. How many times does the books say Jon looks like Ned? is Gendry Rhaygar's kid too? we will never know the truth because Martin wont finish the books, but to me R+L=J dont hold up and has as many holes. i mean to me Rhaygar's third child should be a girl off the way his other kids are named good video, i really like the part about Malister and the age not lining up. good point. So i am not saying you are 100% wrong. this art and art is viewed by the beholder. so just my opinion.
This video doesn't disproves OFTGH's theory. Here's why. Jeor claims he commanded Mance Rayder. He never claims Mance was on the wall before him. In fact no members of the Nights watch claims that Mance was raised by the watch. You will find no where in the text any of them claim this. In fact other than Qhorin halfhand and Jeor Mormont, no other members of the nights watch actually mentions knowing Mance Rayder personally. This includes Denys Mallister who is Commander of the shadow tower where Mance was supposedly stationed when he was a member of the nights watch. Men usually start going grey in their mid 30s. Mance could also be dying his hair in order to disguise himself and make himself look older than his actual years. We also have examples from the series of characters appearing to be older than what they actually are for whatever reason. Author having kids and screwing around is plausible because he's no longer beholdent to those kings guard vows. The prince and the King he was sworn to protect are now both dead and other members of the royal family have been exiled. Also you said that how would mance (arthur) or Qhorin (Oswell) would have known that the lord of bones would spare jon? well Initially he didnt want to spare Jon.. he wanted him gutted but Ygritte appealed for his life due to the fact Jon had spared her's before. He had to kill Qhorin to prove his loyalty though. Neither Oswell or Arthur (Qhorin and Mance) could have known that circumstances could have turned out this way, so the plan wasnt formed knowing that this would be the way that Jon would eventually be put into contact with his uncle arthur Dayne disguised as mance rayder! This or just things that happened randomly in the story that no one had control over. it doesnt mean there isn't a secret plot or plan between Mance and Qhorin. Also Qhorin personally requested that Jon Go ranging with him for yet to be revealed reason
Is he based in general? Hmmm I guess that's kinda subjective and related to ones own views on morality... As a character? He's based as fuck, I loves me some Littlefinger.
Why use Dornishmens wife when literally any other song could have been used. Why use specific phrases eg "I wish you good fortune.."? Why draw attention to quirks such as halfhand/whent honing swords?Why have glammered Mance fight with 2 swords,like Dayne?What is Martin trying to achieve making those connections?
Well Id say they arent connections, like calling something a connection doesnt really make it a connection. It has to have some meaningful attachment. So like Dornishmans wife the song is about something that Mance the character embodies, so the song fits Mance. Where as Dayne.. never stole a woman and probably died with regrets (or unrequanited love for Rhaegar?) as he was bound to a werid vow (the kingsguard vow) and thus could never truly taste of "the dornishmans wife" (also again the song is about someone who is not dornish cucking a dornish person... like myself I bump 0 tracks about how some other dude banged my wife... but like idk maybe thats just me?) Honing a sword is... well its just an action people with swords do, idk why its considered special in just this one context and not every other time a whet stone appears. Same things with 2 handers, like why arent we wrapping up Sams dad in this if were so concerned about two handers? So like again I would need to see some acutal connections or something that would indicate that the two characters should be looked at as one.
Mormant knew who Aegon was, said nothing. The Knight king, also a Targarian right? 3 Eyed Raven. Targarian. Was there and close w/ Aegon and 3 Eyed Raven. They would of known all this. Alot was covered up there meaning. We need atleast a 10 Episode spinoff leading up to Got
I believe the nightsking is either a legend or a stark, either way grrm has eluded to the NK not being an in book character that well meet? Like hes exclusively a legend of old in the books. Could be misremembering that tho.
@@randominternetguyoffical I got it from the Theory that Maester Aemon and 3 Eyed Raven (Who should be the bad guy if they ever bring the show back, Bron) knew each other very close. Knew things that would come. Just adding in that these guys may of sat at that same Table making this plan. It's in there about Night King being a Targarian. Waiting on that next book 😅🤷🏻 Wtf George!?!?!
@@randominternetguyoffical Also, people forget to add in, Ned Starks brother was also at The Wall. Benji. And he somehow could fight being a white walker. There's something there imo. May include Raider being the son of Dorn, may not. But that would definitely add to the story.
@@randominternetguyoffical also, Don't forget Uncle Benji's story. How did Raider know the white walkers was coming? How did Benji not become a White Walker? Where did he go?
@@randominternetguyoffical Think of all these guys that was at the Night's watch together. Had to be a reason. Mormant, Aegon, 3 Eyed Raven, Benji, the list goes on tbh. All sitting around a table talking.
GRRM is pretty consistent, like if this was irl I agree lotta greys in the 30 yr olds im my crew... but like in asoiaf its usually a sign of decent age unless GRRM says its not like with the lady Tyrell who has silvery white hair but is said to be younger than her husband.
That’s fair but I do think the wording is a bit ambiguous (whether on purpose or not). What sold me more on MR=AD is the parallel story of uniting the small folk against the Kingswood Brotherhood and uniting the wildlings against the Others. As well as the fight sequence between Jon and “Rattleshirt” using a two handed great sword. AD at the wall would also explain why the Daynes don’t hate the Starks and why Mance’s spear wives hold Ned Stark in such high regard (one takes great offense when Theon says the words “Winter is Coming” and even refers to him as Lord Stark). I just think there are more thematic reasons why MR=AD and imo those take precedent over grey hair. I love your videos and really love the discussion and community you’ve created. ❤
@Mark Robinson in the later series I do take a look at the KWBH and Wildling villages parallel and the Rattleshirt thing cuz like the Dorishmans Wife I think they are highly creative but very much misinterpretions of the text do to more or less trying to make things fit. Really glad you've liked the videos! Its lots of fun to tear into the book series and all the ideas around it. Hoping to have some new videos out soon on Littlefinger and Varys/Illyrio and the Blackfyres too
@@randominternetguyoffical idk, it’s just my head cannon from my first read before I got into theory shit in 2012. If you can gel with R+L=J and him sacrificing himself to protect Jon as his last act. Plus, he could kick all the asses with only his left. I kinda thought it was just put there as a “duh” thing.
@@randominternetguyoffical I'll have the kingmaker over the sword of the morning any day of the week. “I had rather have a plain russet-coated captain that knows what he fights for, and loves what he knows, than that which you call a gentleman and is nothing else.” Oliver Cromwell
I don't think this theory of course. But I think that people who think it is real, think that Daenerys is the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna, therefore Ned's six where her protectors and not Willem Darry. Basically Willem Dustin -> Willem Darry It really doesn't make any sense...
I was gonna get into it in the video but I didnt lol, however I think it all is largely a series of retcons to get to where theres a big chance Jon with fight the others with Dawn? Like almost all iterations of this theory I could find used it as like a staging for a greater narative that they thought the books would follow. Its all kinda odd to me like starting with the ending you want and working backwards to make Dayne still alive XD
I mean, we watch Arthur Dayne die in the flashback with Bran, he sees the truth of what happens to Dayne, so no matter what justification the theory has, it cannot get around that. Furthermore, N + A = J was also disproven by the confirmation of R + L = J so I really don't understand why people believe or want to believe this theory. Even IF Arthur didn't die (a mostly pointless death) by stabbing in the back by Howlan Reed, he would've died (a definitely pointless death) at the hands of Stannis the Mannis. So.... who cares?
He was brutally tortured till he looked that way tho. Where as Mance appears to have a wang since hes fathering children. So I can't see Mance having white in his hair for similar reasons.
@randominternetguyoffical if I missed it I apologize but I don't think you can take on the Green Hand's theory without addressing the scene where Mance (as Rattleshirt) kicks the crap out of Jon like it was NOTHING...that dude DOES NOT fight like some random born to a wildling and a crow...Love your channel but I'm not with you on this one brother
I actually do address this in a later video and it even comes up in some other videos. Canonically Mance is supposed to be a really great fighter. He is considered great by watchmen and wildlings alike. And using a great sword doesn't really mean anything. Lots of people use great swords like sam's dad uses a great sword, but that doesn't mean sams dad is a dayne. Jon isn't really actually that good of a fighter either, like He's not terrible or anything but he even talks about how he's not a great fighter or anything. So again I do take this on as evidence but to me it's not very good evidence. And again because you can take apart pretty much anything in the theory with ease and the theory relies on all of the parts to work together... It just doesn't hold up very well as a theory because of the way it's constructed. Additionally it is a little surprising to me that people still stick to this after the show ended. Like obviously there's gonna be some major changes in the books. But because there was zero dayne/jon connection in the ending it would be really really surprising if there was in the books. Like particularly if it's supposed to have the impact that the theory implies it will have... glad you enjoyed the channel in any case, workin on a jon video rn actually!
For me the main impetus for backing the Dayne is mance theory is that I just dont take the fever dream of Ned to indicate his death. First read of the book and the fever dream my take was instantly welp arthur Dayne's hiding out somewhere. 1. it makes no sense for them to fight to the death, KG3 weren't gonna battle to the death protecting lyanna and her child from people who were so obviously not there to harm them. 2. the dream only sees starks men as wraiths indicating that they are the only people who died. 3. you get the saga of ned and cersi where ned shows a willingness to look past major cultural/illegal transgressions which resulted in harm/threat to his own child and negotiate a way forward that would spare cersei's life in order to see her children not killed. a hint that hes done that in the past. Then later you get Aryas encounter with Ned dayne and the high regard the family seems to have for the Starks. Indicating that whatever went down, not only did they see it as honorable, and justified to point they hold no ill will towards the man ultimately responsible for the death of the golden child of the family, and quite frankly the impetus for the daughters suicide, but they have so much respect for Ned's actions children are being named after him. To me mance being Dayne and halfhand being whent all of that stuff gets convoluted when tinfoil hats start making it more of a conspiracy then it needs to be. the conspiracy was simple Starks, the Bear, Mance, Reed worked out a way to protect Jon. keep him at winterfell till he is old enough, guide him to eventually take the black, after which he would be no threat to anyone's claim to a throne. allow the KG3 to live out there life at the wall or beyond so they can keep a regular eye on Jon. Anything else that has bigger implications to stopping white walkers or becoming a turn-cloak and then king beyond the wall could be for any number of reasons and aren't really relevant to why they ended up there in the first place, the common goal of protecting Jon from Robert.
None of these arguments are convincing to me. To me the most convincing argument against Mance being Authur Dayne is that it would be cliche for GRRM to write that at this point. Maybe he thought about going that direction at one point because there are some hints but there are already too many secret identities in the story. You already have Jon being a Targaryen, Faegon, fake Arya, Rattleshirt being Mance, Tyrion pretending to be someone else etc. Those are just some of the confirmed ones. If you start including the more fringe ones almost everyone in the story is someone else. You can't have every character pretending to be someone else. Its just bad writing at some point.
Well how did bron know the lannistor songs?? Drunk lannistors.. just cuz he knows the song doesn't mean that he was from there.. catch my drift stinky lol
I don't think Mance ever had any kids. When we meet Mance, he says he has a wife and this is her sister. Later when mance goes to molestown, he gets random sisters/wives/daughters. Could it be possible Mance was lying about Val and Dala?
Random Internet Guy, you are approaching this all wrong. An author doesn't want you to guess their surprise reveal, but they can't have you feel that the twist came completely out of nowhere. You are overanalyzing each piece of evidence in order to dismiss it. This is not a court of law, this is literature. GRRM gave us little clues to form a connection between Mance and Ser Arthur Dayne. Mance's tent is made from white pelts; essentially Mance is cloaked in white like a kingsguard. The Dornishman's Wife doesn't actually need to be a song from Dorne. The important thing was to have Dorne be mentioned when Jon meets Mance. Mance chooses to fight with a greatsword, just like Ser Arthur Dayne. We really don't know Mance's age. Jeor Mormont and Denys Mallister would have known when Mance joined the Night's Watch, but this is irrelevant. It was Qhorin who told Jon about Mance's history; Jeor Mormont and Denys Mallister were not there to refute it. And gray hair is simply not an accurate tool for estimating age. You ignored the most important part of what Osha said which is "He's never tasted winter." If Mance had been a steward, then perhaps that could be overlooked. Mance was a ranger. Rangers experience the worst of the weather just like the wildlings do, and Osha would know that. The confrontation at the Tower of Joy happened at the end of the last winter. If Mance is really Ser Arthur Dayne and didn't arrive at the wall until sometime after the Tower of Joy, then that perfectly matches what Osha said.
So outta curiosity why do you think none of it made it into the show? Like if its a big (arguably one of the biggest and most important reveals) and like if GRRM has had it planned and in notes, how come 0% of the Mance is X person theories made it into the show? Obviously dnd suck but like why show Dayne dying and burn the real Mance? Why not just use the plot if that indeed is GRRM's plot?
@@randominternetguyoffical It's hard to say with those guys, but it seems like they just wanted to eliminate as many subplots as possible. GRRM didn't tell them everything, and they didn't stay faithful to everything that he did tell them either.
Well I guess only the final books will be the final word on the theories. Hopefully the author gets around two Winds at least XD I figure he's got to release the next book even if we don't get the last one.
Several disagreements with your analysis: --The text does not say that Ned killed Arthur with the help of Howland Reed. It says that Arthur would have killed Ned but for Howland Reed. This is perfectly consistent with Howland Reed surrendering on their behalf or negotiating a deal. --The text that describes the battle at the Tower very carefully says multiple times that Ned's friends are shadows whose faces Ned can't remember any more while the three kingsguard still have faces that burn bright. This is code for they are still alive. Ned's dream cuts away just as they meet in a clash of shadow and steel. Shadow is Ned's dead friends and the steel is the still living kingsguard. --The three lethal kingsguard cut Ned's five friends to pieces, then Howland Reed surrendered, and the three Kingsguard filled Ned and Howland in on Rhaegar's secret plan. "And now it begins," Arthur Dayne said. Rhaegar's secret plan built from prophecy. --Rhaegar made his three kingsguard swear the exact same oath that Qhorin (Gerold Hightower) makes Jon--to do anything and assume any identity to fulfill their mission, which was to make sure the wildlings came south of the wall before the war with the Others and that Rhaegar's son would be put in charge. --The theory as I advance is that there was a real Mance Rayder whose identity Arthur Dayne stole. But this could have happened at the same time that Mance abandoned the NIght's Watch. The wildlings he dealt with didn't know what the real Mance looked like. The nights watch men who hear about Mance Rayder don't see him. But more importantly, Mance strangely always, always wears his old Night's Watch cloak. As though it is enchanted with a glamour so that Arthur Dayne inside looks like the original Mance Rayder. --The chapter that Jon meets Mance is filled with imagery of the underworld and corresponds to the chapters in the Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid when the hero goes to the underworld to meet the dead. This has been brilliantly written by Martin I can say having studied the epics in literature at Yale. --In my view, Arthur Dayne is singing the Dornishman's wife not because he is Dornish (although he is) but because Queen Rhaella Targaryen had Dornish blood and so did her husband Mad King Aerys. Arthur Dayne is a Lancelot figure. He was surely sleeping with the queen and is the real father of Rhaegar and Dany. Not of Viserys. Viserys is the real son of the Mad King. But Rhaegar, Jon, and Dany are actually Dayne-Targaryens allowing Jon to become Sword of the Morning and wield Dawn in the final two books! Daenerys is also, right in her name, the Dayne Heiress. --Rayder's name is a clue too as Ray-der is similar to Day-ne. --Perhaps the biggest clue that everyone seems to ignore is that there is absolutely no way that Ned and Howland alone could have torn down the Tower of Joy and build eight massive stone cairns while taking care of a new born baby, let alone with Ned grieving his sister and right after a battle. No, because this was Rhaegar's plan, the three hulking kingsguard had spent months preparing to collapse the wall and probably already started building their fake graves when Ned got there with his men. It was five men with oxes with a preexisting plan on how to burn/collapse the tower to hide the evidence not Ned and Howland suddenly turning into Superman and the Green Latern to do it with no preparation. --This theory also makes the story so much more delicious on many levels because it means that Viserys was the last one with a true, legitimagte claim to the Iron Throne. All that are left now are individuals with bastard claims, including Dany and Jon and if he is alive, Aegon VI. Likewise, if Tyrion, Jamie, and Cersei are bastards of the Mad King with Joanna Lannister, their claims are bastard claims too. However, since they come through the male side, they are arguably stronger, and in fact Jamie, Cersie, their kids, and Tyion had the best actual claim to the throne all along!!! It's 100% George Martin.
So my main problem with everything that you're saying is that it's more or less just fanfic. Like in that there's no reason why we should think any of those things you're proposing happened or are true. Like just as one example, sure it's weird that the tower came down if it was only two of them, but that doesn't imply that any of that other stuff you bring up is true. So at the end of the day I guess what I'm saying is like. All of those ideas are fun stories they're fun fan fiction but they're not really supported by anything.
@@randominternetguyoffical Somewhere, I have a lengthy Quora answer suggesting that Mance is also the Ghost in Winterfell who talks to Theon, which noted among other things that Mance is the most mentioned character in that chapter other than Theon. Before Ghost 1 (Theon) encounters putative Ghost 2 (Mance) who calls him a kinslayer and says he should be dead, Theon talks to one of Mance’s friends women, and she asks Theon if Mance sent her to him. Then later Theon walks into a room where Mance is performing and listens to a song by Mance which arguably relate to Arthur Dayne albeit not by name. At the end of the chapter, two of Mance’s women come and tell Then they are talking him to Mance because they have a roll for him-the plot to rescue fake Arya-and seem to reference what Theon told the second ghost. That God’s have left him alive for a specific purpose and treat he has has a purpose related to Ramsay which is why he is still alive, and that he is suffering not enjoying his life. The women tell him that he can fulfill his purpose and then be relieved from suffering by following Mance’s plan for him. Among other things, it is a highly symbolic chapter that explores some of the themes of the entire series as well as Theon’s role and arguably Mance’s from a meta perspective of the writer Martin himself, why they exist in the story at all, what they have to do, and when they can leave it. Mance is arguably the most curious and inexplicable character in the story: He is king of the wildlings, but it’s his plan and seemingly was only his plan to bring them all south of the wall before the war with the others. Qhorin says of Mance that he never liked to kneel, exactly what Ned remembers him saying at the tower of Joy. Yet he has made himself a king? He gathered all the northern tribes together but he claims a Night’s Watch father but is continually plays many different songs from the south which he claims to have learned from better men and musicians than himself. He treats Jon way better than Jon’s actual uncle Benjen and saves Jon’s life when he probably shouldn’t have while claiming no relationship to him. He wears a Night’s Watch black cloak with silk from Asshai all the time despite claiming to be a turncloak from the Night’s Watch and, if he is indeed the Ghoat in Interfell, literallly calling Theon “Theon Turncloak” as an accusation. He claims to have visited and hung out with the Starks at the feast despite apparently being their mortal enemy. What you call fan fiction is necessary to provide in fact the simplest explanation for all his disparate apparent actions and contradictions and appearances. His really being Arthur Dayne is by far the simplest explanation of about score of weird oddities surrounding him as well as Rhaegar too. The actual story of who he is and all his decisions and twists and turns is going to have to be much more elaborate and fan fiction like than what I have provided to account for all his roles, appearances, actions, statements, and pieces of knowledge. The best argument for my fan fiction is that it is a very simple explanation at it’s core for dozens of oddities: Mance is Arthur Dayne, always hated kneeling to King Ayres whom he hated but had to serve, and fathered and mentored Rhaegar on his beautiful wife then took that Obi Wan Kenobi role from many fantasy stories of the one who waits near the hidden hero to save and anoint him when the time actually comes.
@jclaburn I don't know, see I'd argue that that would add a whole bunch of complications and that all of those assumptions aren't really based on anything we can see in the story. Also, several of those things are a little bit incorrect imo like for example, that Mance treats John better than his uncle. It's on mance's orders that john is almost killed when he tries to flee.. Like mance is friendly, but he's not that friendly. I'm just not seeing it. I'm also just not seeing where it would go or why it should take precedence over what is more easily verifiable within the story.
@@randominternetguyoffical We’ll see: At the risk of sounding crazy, I have made a lot of specific predictions about the last two books. It’s unlikely that all will be true, but I think that every single one is more likely than not and some are virtually certain: -It will turn out that Mance Rayder is Arthur Dayne and was in love with the Queen and ordered to bring the wildlings south by Rhaegar. The three kingsguard won the fight at the Tower of Joy: I am less certain of Rhaegar and Dany being his kids, and of Mance being the Ghost in Winterfell, but they certainly fit nicely into the theory and explains even more. -Arya will be apprenticed with either the Black Pearl or the Merling Queen and have her voice taken, like Ariel. She will kill Justin Massey for trying to buy her virginity w the money of Stannis. She will come back and eventually take Aria-nne Martel’s identity (or Elia Sand) and serve the Faceless Men and Braavos as wife to Young Griff. -Jaqen H’ghar is the real Aegon VI who was saved by Varys but switched (a little like Jon’s baby switch) with Young Griff, only for bad reasons by Illyrio Mopatis. Jaqen is our Strider and Odysseus figure. He is back to slowly kill all the suitors to the throne which is truly his by right. He will probably eventually kill Young Griff, or Arya will do it for him, then wearing Young Griff’s face he will assume his actual real identity as Aegon VI. This will confuse Tyrion and Dany who are convinced correctly that Young Griff is a fake, but in the end Jaqen / Aegon VI will be real. -Jonsa is real. Just as we have one eventual Targaryen - Stark pairing in the south, Jaqen to Arya mirroring Rhaegar to Lyanna, we have a second Targaryen - Stark pairing in the North, inspired by Beauty and the Beaat. The story has to end like the real War of the Roses with a Tudor - York / Targaryen - Stark marriage (or two of them like the Catelyn/Lysa double wedding). Jon and Sansa’s storylines have been paralleling each other throughout, similar to Jaqen and Arya’s. Jon saved Ygritte and Sandor rescued Sansa in the next chapter and also held a sword to her neck. Sandor argued with Sansa over whether all men are killers, including Sansa’s brothers, or there are some true nights and trrue princes who protect the week. Jon was taken to the King in the North and Sansa to the Queen of Thorns in succeeding chapters. They were both forced into marriages (Ygritte and Tyrion) they did not choose. Trapped in the Eyrie, forced to pretend to be a bastard, Sansa has telepathically connected already to Jon using her warning bond and they are in each other’s romantic dreams already. Jon will rescue Sansa from the mess in the Erie when she needs it but he will then be a wolf-man and beast man with a consciousness half wolf. Jon is a Byronic romantic hero par excellence, Martin has said in interviews, and the known secret of Alfred Lord Byron is that he was desperately, completely in romantic love with his half sister. Jon is destined to fall completely in love with Sansa, his first cousin whom he thinks is his sister, while also being in love with either Dany (his aunt or possibly his sister separated at birth) or Val (Ashara Dayne’s long lost daughter traveling with her Uncle, Arthur Dayne; she is probably Jon’s first cousin because Arthur Dayne is Jon’s grandfather and Ashara Dayne his sister is Val’s mother). Martin is set on the love triangle but he has given himself two alternative blonde Dayne relatives for Jon to do it with depending upon how the plot goes in the final two books w Dany. The idea at one point was to have Dany - Young Griff/Jaqen - Arya in one love triangle in the south, when Young Griff was going to go to Meereen then later be replaced by Jaqen who loves Arya not Dany. This love triangle would have faced off in a dance of dragons against the second love triangle of Sansa - Jon - Val in the north, with Sansa opposed to Arya, Jon opposed to Young Griff / Jaqen, and Val opposed to Dany, even as they mirror one another. But he decided to have Young Griff not go to Meereen and marry Dany so it’s gotten even more complicated now but he still has two matching love triangles set up as well as Tyrion in yet another love triangle married to Sansa who loves Jon, and now Tyrion will fall in love with Dany who will fall in love herself with either Jon or Jaqen.
Rheagar Targaryen and Ashara Dayne has a child, Daenerys Targaryen. First off, Rheagar slept with his best friends little sister (a very G.R.R.M. used plot line.) this results in a child, Daenerys. Dany grew up in Dorne, specifically Starfall the seat of house Dayne. When Ashara learned the war was but lost she had Dany brought to her grandmother Rhealla on Dragonstone and Rheagar told his mother to say the child was hers to protect Dany. She was raised as viserys sister never knowing she is actually the daughter of the great house Dayne and her father Rheagar. I know the hints in the books don’t support this as of yet but G.R.R.M. has purposely only laid out a few hints of what the truth is and most of the reason to her parentage to this point is wrong because her memories are only half truths
So i've never actually heard the R + A = D theory before, that's quite interesting. My two best guesses about the house witht the red door were dorne or more likely Illyrios estates, the ones in the fields that he talks to tyrion about. What makes you say star fall in particular?
@@randominternetguyoffical that’s the Dayne house is located and would need servants to hide the secret but it’s also located on the water. I think the “Storm Born” doesn’t mean an actual storm… I think it means she survived the storm of the Baratheons of the Stormlands. Barely escaping with her life.
@@marcemarc6516 Preston Jacobs put out a similar idea about her being stormborn because of stanis stroming dragon stone. How do you think everything lead to an ejection from the house and the preceding events assuming the house was in dorne. i lean towards Illyrios estates cuz the events dont make as much sense if theyre in dorne to me
My mother, sister and brother were all completely white at the age of 35. My grandmother still had black hair mixed in with her white hair when she died at 102 y/o. So the hair color/age analysis doesn't work. The white bear pelts link Mance to Dayne because the name Arthur means Bear and white ignifies the kingsguard. Also who says that the kings guard are are guarding Jon? Stannis links Val to Winterfel by offering the castle along with her hand in marriage. Lyanna had plenty of time to be pregnant 2x between the tourney at Harrenhal and when she died giving birth to Jon at the tower of Joy. Val and Dalla are the twin daughters of Lyanna and Rhaegar. They were conceived at the tourney. As soon as Lyanna realized she was pregnant she contacted Rhaegar and he abducted her in his best impersonation of Bael the Bard he could muster. Dalla was born first followed by Val. Assuming that Rhaegars children by Elia were dead, Dalla becomes the defacto Queen and Val a princess. Jon was Lyanna's but not Rhaegars. That is another theory that I am not going to go into here. Arthur Dayne (the white bear) assumes the identity of Mance, Gerold Hightower assumes the identity of Qhorin halfhand (both identities having a hand injury) and Oswell Whent becomes Oswell Kettleblack. The twins are placed with a wildling family beyond the wall and when they come of age Mance/Arthur leaves the wall to protect them more closely. Mace and Dalla fall in love and marry making Mance the king. They have a child and Dalla dies leaving Val, Lyanna's daughter as queen and an heir to Winterfell. Gerald remains at the wall and dies by Jon's hand on a ranging and Oswell Whent/Kettleblack is at the red keep spying on the current royal family. Oh, and the Night's King is either Rhaegar or Bittersteel. I haven't completely figured that one out yet.
lot to respond to! Ill do my best! 1) So as for hair color, obviously the real world is way more complex with how hair and people age and change, however for story telling purposes our Author (and all fiction authors) have to follow the rule of averages and norms. So Mance having part brown and mostly white hair is an age indicator and also and indicator that he does not carry to the two known Dayne hair colors, of solid silver white (not mances grey). So hair unfortually is a tell against him being a Dayne, brown isnt silver, grey isnt silver, it also is an age indicator as its grey not silver. (the distinction is also noted with the Lady of High Garden whi is a silver haird Hightower by birth, she is noted as younger than Mace who has a touch of the grey and silver is separated from the age indicating grey throughout series) 2) Arthur as a name (and many many names) has many meanings, so this is a hard sell on day one a google search reveals it aslo to mean Thor... so like Robert the Storm King, why isnt he Mance?. But more importantly white bear pelts are a coveted prize north and south of the wall, The famous Crows Eye Umber wears one (also an old dude, so hey you could totally make the dayne case? I mean his brother studied at the citidel, the could be Tormund!! AAAAA!! , sry jK, but you get the point). 6 skins rides a snow bear as... Theres no way this can be accepted as evidence, the pelts are too common, theres literally nothing special or unexpected about them. (mel comments on the trappings of power as well, so like that dude better have pelts if hes tryin to be king lol) 3) The later part of these claims I have nothing better say that... show me the proof.. author statements, appendixes, in text character statements...? anything? Cuz saying a hypothesis and being able to provide proof are two very very different things. You're using the starting assumption that all these folks are someone else in secret then extrapolating the reasons front there... but there's no evidence in text or out to support the extrapolation. These are unfortunately, unverifiable assumptions that are pretty easy to debunk. The kettlebakcs for example are brought to kingslanding by their father and littlefinger, both of whom have known the brothers their whole lives, theres no place/time for a swap, and characters that would immediately notice and react to the sudden person swtich up. Same problem at the wall. Need proof to have pudding otherwise its just fanfic!
@@randominternetguyoffical I completely disagree with everything you have said. Your entire theory is also based on assumptions also. This is a story, not a court case and the story isn't over yet. Until all is revealed all we have are assumptions based on small clues that GRRM has left. The items that I cite are in the text. Mance does have a tent of white bear pelts. Arthur does mean bear. (Thor means eagle. And no, most names do not have many meanings.)This is foreshadowing or hints to a persons identity. Alone these items don't mean much, but over the course of the story more is revealed. I don't believe that every person in the story is someone else. But I do believe in this story as in actual history, once a royal enemy is defeated, those who are loyal to the deposed king or queen go into hiding or else they are killed for not bending the knee. And as for the hair color thing and the ages of people, in this universe 30 is considered old. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree and wait for George to finish the 2 last books. At least he better finish them.
@@seastar4194 Thats one thing we certainly can agree on, GRRM really should finish those damn books up lol incidentally what all did you think of fire and blood?
Not six but five Holland Reed and I think it's the High Sabbath and Kiberon and I think Lord Dustin is still alive so he didn't bring his body because he didn't die
@@mar7898 That is a rabbit hole for sure lol how do you explain that Qyburn was a maester and is described as much older than Dustin could be assuming he was alive?
Everyone tells you not to drink, but you want to do it, and once you do, you will do it over and over and over and over again Maybe they swear not to get married but once they do they see that it's not wrong in the end
Well, first off, that the song "the dornish man's wife" is clearly not a dornish song does not mean Mance isn't dornish, if anything it might be a doylist clue (a flimsy one) but not watsonian evidence that he is not Arthur.
@wredwraith I think you're misunderstanding what i'm trying to demonstrate by putting forward the example. It's put forward as a dornish song and that is used as evidence that he is dornish. I am saying that because it clearly is not a dornish song. That particular line of argument falls apart. Now yes, the greater purpose of the video is that when you examine, basically any of the arguments alone, they all fall apart and thus the whole greater fanfic falls apart. However the point I'm making is if I were to say that person is driving a british car and therefore they are british. And the car turned out to be a toyota. Then my claim now falls apart because of how i've constructed it.
You said "The idea that Mance Rayder is clearly a Dayne and clearly from Dorne because he sings the song 'the dornish man's wife'. This is based on two assumptions, 1 that the dornish man's wife is a dornish song and the kind of song a dornish man would sing" this strawmans the theory and doesn't disprove it, also see above "and 2 that only a person who's been south of the wall or a person who's gone to dorne would know songs like this" more strawman and Mance claims to have been south of the wall, so if he is Arthur this story covers anything he might know about the south including songs that might give his identity away.
@wredwraith That's not a strawman, that's what the theory is claiming.. Like you can go to Ootgh, or the comments or wherever... thats how it is presented... The claim is that the song is dornish and therefore this is evidence that mance is dornish, and this is further supposed to be evidence that he is arthur dayne because arthur dayne is dornish... The fact that it is poorly constructed does not mean that I am strawmanning it, it just means it's poorly constructed.. Like pointing out that a claim doesn't make sense isn't strawmanning It's just pointing out that it doesn't make sense , right? I feel like you're kinda confused on what a strawman is?
