*IMPORTANT CORRECTION:* In this video I state the boost pressures are 1300-1650 mbar *above atmospheric,* as is indicated on IndyCar's website (bit.ly/2XvviEU). This information, and the website, are not correct. Two IndyCar engineers have since notified me the boost pressures are absolute, meaning the gauge pressure for these engines above atmospheric is about 300-650 mbar, or about 4-9.5 psi. This is *significantly* less boost than discussed in the video. The math makes sense as well with the update. With pressure ranging from 1300 to 1650 mbar, and power ranging from 550 to 700 HP, we can do some quick ratios to see if it adds up. 1650/1300 = 1.27. 700/550 = 1.27. The power gain is thus proportional to the gain in pressure. E85 plays a larger role in power generation than the video indicates, and makes up for the gap that the "reduced" boost makes. Apologies for providing incorrect information, and thank you to the engineers who reached out with corrections and supporting materials! Mistakes happen; I will always do my best to provide corrections if necessary! Hopefully IndyCar will correct their website as well to reduce future confusion.
*Very* important correction! :) Thanks for clearing up. It seems obvious to me that the Civic 4-lunger certainly isn't running anywhere near that boost pressure either, certainly not on pump gas at 9.8:1 compression!
@@jakecole7447 It really runs at well over 20 PSI boost on pump gas at 9.8 CR? Somehow I really doubt it. For 300HP on a 2.0 liter 4, more like less than 10 PSI. 20+ PSI shouldn't be necessary for 300 HP, nowhere near that much.
@@devilsoffspring5519 dude... Just Google it. They run 22-25 psi Stock. And no you dont teach 310 HP with that RPM and compression with 10 psi. Modded 5.2 Liter v10s run that sorta boost.
My suggestion, remake the video where this gets corrected/discussed otherwise we get false data implanted into our brain. That's why this sort of vid is good, we have a stab at how we see things, "experts" pop up and offer valuable info, we all gain. Good job. These question have wizzed though my mind, I'm a curious engineer. I'd like to know the detail of F1 engines compared to a powerful commercial engine. I know octane and revs are the main ones. One comment by an expert was, tolerance are greater (and well defined) on a sports engine, longlevity is not the criteria.
@@alimahdavi2276 XD That was too good! Though I didn't verbally respond to that, I did freeze for several seconds to hold in my laughter, thanks for that.
@James Smith K or B either one will get you boostability. K20 is pretty high comp compared to B20 or K24 and therefore might not be as good for boosting, but yeah, B18/B20/K24 are your cheapest bets, go grab one out of an old CRV or TSX for 200$ at a pick and pull.
Haha, funny enough this has a fixed cam profile (as regulated), but the Type R does have vtec on the exhaust. Once turbos got involved variable lift wasn't as important on the intake, so it's been dropped.
S3000 would be too big. There's no reason to put a 3L engine in such a small car. The 2000 in S2000 stands for CC. Honda actually makes an S600 for Japan only.
@@maxxas5067 Yes, there is. That tiny two seater car will never be able to handle the power, it would be all squirlly. The current S600 has a mid/rear engine too.
@keith cunningham honda made over 1000hp with 1.6L normally aspirated engine for formula engine carol shelby never competed because he couldnt make one.
@@TeejtheDeej Exactly. The more money the person has the faster they can go. The cool thing is today's 4 cylinder engines can out perform V 8 engines even on a budget. 300 hp reliable on stock components,1/3 the weight, less parasitic friction loss, its a win.
@@TeejtheDeej I'm building a planned 500+hp 2.4 Ecotec for a customer. As of August 2021 he's $15,000 USD into parts and machine work. Its going into a mid 80's Camaro. I'm expecting it to eat 8 cylinders all day long. I should be strapping it to the dyno this coming spring.
Honda: we can only tell you it makes above 700hp, and the bore. Jason: (does some math), so your engine has this stroke, uses this much fuel, has up to this much horsepower and torque, and can probably go this fast estimating the drag co-efficient of a typical formula one car. Honda: damn, don't ever tell that guy anything
You can have any power you like with forced induction as long as the block is strong enough. BMW proved this in the 80's with 1400 hp on a 4 cylinder engine much smaller in capacity than this Honda.
Yeah 1.5L I4 running 5bar of boost on a massive turbo. I can't imagine how much power modern F1 engines would make if they only had to last for 3 laps and had unlimited fuel flow, probably upwards of 2000hp
I'm looking at my 1986 yamaha rd350ypvs. Dyno says 90 bhp at the flywheel. It's an ex Stan Stephens race bike. Cranks don't last too long but it's pretty fun to ride. The peak revs are about 16k. It absolutely screams >:) That is approximately 257 bhp/litre,,,,, not bad for non turbo running normal petrol premix.
@@IDontWantAHandle101 Hey, takes me back... I had a Stan tuned LC race engined on the road for a bit, it was so fast, never got the engine past a 1000 miles without a rebuild 😁
@@petrichor649 No pain no gain!!! I have a TDR 250 too. That will be the last I get rid of. Hooligan machine. Does less to the gallon than my Range Rover :)
Thats how low displacement engines have to make up for power. It works faster to move the same amount of air as larger displacements. The tradeoff being lifespan but much lighter weight
With 2 additional pistons this makes it easier to build more torque, even though it has the same displacement and shorter stroke than the four cylinder engine.
no, the tolerances are soo tight on an indy engine the block needs to be heated up to allow for expansion before startup. Not practical in a daily driver.
@@brkbtjunkie Its a joke... I'm not saying to modify the CTR engine to be like an Indycar engine but rather the hp/l is very similar once you factor in the boost, displacement and fuel difference
Important correction, the cylinder head flow rate has a HUGE influence on power output. E85 is approximately 105 octane, however doesn't account for the majority of the horse power difference. I would speculate that the cylinder heads on the Indycar engine flow FAR more than the stock type R engine, which contributes to the significant difference in hp, while having similar displacement and boost levels.
Whoa this needs to be an engine option for the Accord (; Edit: of course you’d need to tweak a few things so it’ll at least last like a Honda XD Edit 2: 104 likes? Am I having Deja Vu?
Nice video. An extremely significant omission was the different induction systems and the number of valves. The race engine has cylinder heads and intake manifold that flow much more air than the street engine. Also, 24 valves instead of 16. Also the exhaust systems are very very different. It's about airflow.
When you first showed the engine internals I thought it was the indy engine, and I counted 4 cylinders in a row, and got very excited that Honda had made another V8 engine, and then realized it was the type R motor. I really wish Honda weren't so afraid of 8 cylinders.
@@jzxtrd337 I cant tell if you're a troll or not but indy engines go about 3000 miles before getting a new one. They gave races longer than 250 miles lmao
Mercedes made a 1.6L engine with 748hp. I'm obviously talking about the ICE alone. In the road legal Project One. The hybrid systems are estimated to push the total to a maximum of 1230 hp Has to pass the homologation process first though.
@@dyrsten yes but that engine is supposed to survive a race or two, meanwhile the 2.0 450hp is the engine of an A-klass I don't know, however, how reliable is the honda engine, the comment was supposed to be a joke anyways
Would be interesting to know what fails after 2,500 miles, or I would guess about 20 hours of race use, or at minimum what the HONDA race mechanics replace in a rebuild, as obviously they do not throw the entire engine away after every race. So what are the weak points ??? Also thanks for the boost pressure correction, I almost thought HONDA defies the laws of thermodynamics using E85.
@Engineering Explained F1 Honda engine 1.6L V6 single turbo +700 HP get info on that engine :D that would be awesome since I think it is one of the most powerful engines per displacement :)
Wankel rotaries are the amount the highest reliable in a racing scenario for combustion engines (1000 HP per liter). Reliable as in comparatively since those are still using OEM engine housing and probably last more than 2500 miles when only doing 350HP per liter (since no boost on gasoline they are rated 238 for a 1.3L at the factory, although it’s really more like 180-190 because marketing...) Power amount is for drag car with duel turbos and methanol, the Puerto Rican’s know how to make those Doritos engines run!
People can hate little Honda engines all they want but they are fairly impressive. I had a little B18C in a hatch back, that thing was fairly peppy and took a beating. There is definitely quicker but it was a normally aspirated that would chirp into third, squeal into second, and just tear up first the entire time. Crazy little car.
Spinning isn't winning got to get performance clutch proper shifting any DOHC swap in EG/EF is beyond quick weight to power ratio e.g. physics don't need no v8, Honda For Life
In Brazil we actually use e85 on normal cars, cars makers usually advertise power in each fuel and using ethanol it is usually 3% to 5% more than gasoline.
Jurassic Tech That’s why he corrected for the displacement. The actual number of cylinders doesn’t matter, it’s just that more cylinders generally allow for a larger displacement of air and fuel in the entire engine over a given time
@Peder Hansen My point was if the engine had 700hp (about twice as much as the one that it was compared to in the video) then it would need not 50% more but 100% more cylinders, thus 4 extra.
It could have 100 extra cylinders, and with all other variables (displacement, boost, rpm) being equal, it would still move the same amount of air as the 4 cylinder. It's mostly a factor of RPM in this comparison, made possible by the proportion of bore to stroke and maybe some valve sizing, timing and lift, not number of cylinders.
Also a power difference factor is emissions. The 2.0L is rated with catalytic convertors. E85 alone would explain the power gap you ended up with in this video, so you have proved 700hp is definitely conservative. Probably as high as 800hp.
A couple of things you did not address. The Indy car engine has a much better thermal efficiency, close to 50%. How that is achieved of course is top secret. The flow of the heads and the type of valve train will be a huge factor in the increased horsepower.
Another piece of the puzzle is that a Type R won’t make that much boost at peak power. Say it’s 21lbs at peak power and there is around 95% right there.
When comparing the 2.0 L4 to the 2.2 V6 you left out cam design differences between a car which needs to be "streetable" and one which can work within just a small RPM range at the top.
Check out the BBC Equinox documentary about the Ford-Cosworth turbo V6 F1 engine -- it's very interesting! :) The rules limited it to 4 bar = 60 psi in 1987, but some may have run even more before that.
I think you're in the road to becoming very popular around the world! Well deserved man your videos and research are perfectly done. You have unique content.
This engine is pushed to it's limit, and only last for one race before it's damaged. Just like any homemade V8 with 1500hp. Push it harder, blow it faster.
It is amazing that the Honda street 4-banger is so close to the race engine, which I think we can assume, pushes all the limits. Piston speed, boost (ok artificially limited here), apparently BMEP & PCP, and adjusted volumetric power density. They really did it all with rpm and a little higher efficiency. Honda Street engine is amazing to so close to several limits and have so much durability.
Bapster Man, Excellent point, maybe the best. I hear Ferrari makes great engines but it just doesn’t matter, I’ll never afford one. I’ve already owned several Honda.
The civic type r can make 140 horsepower at 2500 rpm and 252 horsepower at 4500 rpm where it’s the peak torque of 295 lbs and the full 306 horsepower at 6500 rpm. I discovered it myself by doing the math. Because (Torque x RPM divided by 5252 = horsepower) so (295 lbs x 2500 RPM divided by 5252 equals 140 horsepower). And (295 lbs x 4500 RPM divided by 5252 equals 252 horsepower) Do it y’all selves and y’all see it.
Man ... Just congrats over your explanation honestly easy and very understandable !! Greetings from Brazil .. 🙋♂️🇧🇷 .. almost forgot .. Ethanol rocks !!!
I'm more interested to know how the F1 engines were getting 1500 HP out of 1.5 Litre in around 1986. That would be a much more interesting investigation
I don't get it, how can two engines with the same average piston speed can have such different max RPM? It's because of the stroke? If a piston travels at 20m/s on a short stroke (like 50mm) and a piston from another engine travels at 20m/s on a 100m stroke... the short stroke one can/will, technically, have twice the RPM?
@butchtropic you have a point but I'm referring my self to the 2016 to present day NSX, it will destroy everything on the road pretty much, 2.2l V6 with over 700 buff hrss man they need to get on that ASAP lol.
J Lemus the reason the NSX didn’t sell like hot cookies is because people turned there noses up at a Honda sports car in 1990, thinking it can’t be as good as a Ferrari or a Porsche, how wrong they were, not only was it as good it was better an actual reliable super car, apparently Ferrari had to go back to the drawing board to up there game,
You missed he entire bore stroke... that’s the whole difference. The fuel is fairly minimal, putting e-85 into the street car wouldn’t give you much. You could also run the street car 12k rpm, but the torque at that rpm would fall off a cliff on the Dino run, resulting in probably like 50 HP because the piston speed would be approaching flame propagation speed (which means the force on the piston would be near 0, which means almost no work is done).
It's more than that there is also cam lift timing . duration and cylinder head design that is where the real power is made air in air out more air+ more fuel = bigger boomb
You guys are correct, air in-out, bore, stoke, materials etc... which breaks down to and results in layman’s terms: higher RPM and higher octane (trying to break it down for someone who doesn’t care as much as we do, lol).
Do a video like this about the Nissan engine that only weighs 88lbs and makes 400hp! The 3cylinder.i wish u could buy that as a crate engine be a amazing swap project engine
Here's one thing he didn't talk about and a little nitpick: Despite him saying the turbos are the same, that is not really true. While they both are maintaining ~20 PSI of boost, this means different things at different RPMs At 12,000 RPM, like he said, there are much more cycles per minute occurring then the Type R engine can achieve. This means vastly more fuel and more air is flowing through the engine. Because of this, the indycar engine turbo is pushing a vastly greater amount of airflow to maintain a pressure of 20 PSI at the intake than the Type R's engine needs to push to maintain 20 PSI at its intake. This is shown in the turbochargers themselves. The CFM of air the indycar turbo can move and compress is extensively greater than that of the Type R turbo. So, while it is correct that both turbos are gated at 20 PSI, to say that the boost is the same is somewhat incorrect. Jason is talking about volts when amps tell the real story of what's happening in these two engines' boost.
I'm not sure you're nitpicking, or that I missed anything. Obviously if you have a higher RPM (more power strokes per minute, as discussed) you have to fill the cylinders up more times, so you'll be pushing more air. Boost is a way to measure how much air the cylinder is getting. The more RPM it has, the more often it does it, thus more power.
@@EngineeringExplained Yeah, makes sense. I can see why it's not a nitpick nor anything wrong, but I just felt like it was overlooked and needed mention at least in passing. Thanks for taking the time to read and reply.
More a difference in pressure and volume isn't it? Kinda how a larger turbo will flow more air at the same pressure than a smaller one. 20psi on a 66mm turbo is less air volume than 20psi on a 77mm turbo. Pressure the same but more air and more power with the larger turbo, assuming no restrictions and enough fuel.
You do know they ran for a lap with that power in qualifying only... usually they blew up aswell! Learn something in the subject you’re talking about please!
"How does Honda make over 700hp from a 2.2L engine?" It isn't so hard, as Honda does it all the time. For instance: My stock Honda inline 4, 600 cc motorcycle, has 110 HP and a redline of 16,500 RPM. If it were enlarged 3.6 times to 2.2 liter, it would generate 403.3 HP. That could be easily boosted to 700 HP with a turbo. And that is a stock engine that was on a $10,000 street bike that weighs 400+ pounds and will do 10+ second quarter miles with the right rider, and brakes to match. New C8 Vette has nearly 500 HP and an 11.3 quarter mile, 3,575 lbs curb weight. I have done track days on this bike and its performance is unreal compared to most any high dollar sports car. In fact. you would have to spend at least $200,000+ on a car to get that kind of performance. Granted, piloting this motorcycle around a road race course is far more challenging, and exhilarating, than in any car. And all for $10,000. But just because you can afford a superbike, doesn't mean you can ride one...
honda is genuiely a cool manufacturer of engines. I've loved every one of their products I've owned much like Milwaukee. It always felt like there was time in the design. I wonder what it's like to work for them.
One thing that was touched on early in the video but not after normalizing for displacement was the effect of the shorter stroke of the Indy engine. Clearly, if two engines have the same displacement but one has a shorter stroke, then the one with the shorter stroke is going to have a greater cross-sectional area. The greater cross sectional area allows for larger valves which in turn allow for greater airflow. Now, greater airflow allows one to combust more fuel which leads to more heat generated which leads to more power - but not at all engine RPMs. If you rev the engine very slowly, there is no pressure gradient to drive more air into the combustion chamber. At very high RPMs, however, on the intake stroke there will be a larger differential between the air on the intake side and after the intake valves. Bigger valves mean less pressure differential which means more air in the cylinder which means more fuel burned etc. etc. In short, the larger valve area of the Indy car allows for higher RPMs without starving the engine for air which allows for more HP.
The offenHauser 4 cylinder Indy car engines had to be pre-lubed/heated to operating temperature through the oil for about 2 hours before it could be started. It had to do with the tolerances being so tight the metal had to expand or the engine would ruin if started cold. Does the same rule apply to these Honda engines?.
