How the Elves Could Have Defeated Morgoth (Without the Valar)

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Morgoth was the strong being to walk Middle-earth, yet I believe the Elves might have defeated him, had some things gone differently… Thank you all for watching! Let me know your thoughts on this topic in the comments below! As always, a great thanks to the online artists whose visual works made this video possible! If you are one of the artists, please let me know and I will post your name and a link to your work in this description!
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Комментарии : 164

@shadowofchaos8932 8 дней назад

The moment after Morgoth created the Dragons would have been his most weakest. His recovery from the power used would have been immense.

@lisboah 8 дней назад

The thing is that the Curse of Mandos would have ensured that the Elves would never be capable of defeating Morgoth no matter how hard they tried. But they might have won, or at the very least kept the war on a stalemate had: -Tried their best to maintain a good relationship with Thingol and Melian, and with the Dwarves; -Aredhel never left Gondolin. This in turn would have prevented Maeglin's birth; -Maedhros kept a tight leash on all of his brothers; -Listened to Fingolfin's warnings and either attacked Angband or reinforced the vigilance; -Been more careful with the choice of allies. The Men under Ulfang were the main cause for the defeat at the Fifth Battle; -Every Silmarill recovered would be turn over to the Sons of Feanor, or at the very least made an agreement with them; -Turin Turambar died earlier. No offense to him, but he played a great role in Nargothrond's ruin

@maxmercer1931 8 дней назад

Or... Feanor could have given the silmarils to Yavanna to restore the two trees of Valinor

@Gigas0101 8 дней назад

@@maxmercer1931 That could be a great What If for this channel.

@timonsolus 7 дней назад

@@maxmercer1931: I’ve often thought about that. There were 3 Silmarils, but only 2 Trees. So perhaps Yavanna would have only needed to break 2 of the Silmarils to restore the 2 Trees, leaving Feanor with 1 Silmaril intact. However, restoring the Trees would not have been wise. They had already proven vulnerable to Melkor’s attacks once, and in any case, they only provided light to Valinor, not to the whole of Arda. Finally, the destruction of the Trees inspired the Valar to create the Sun and Moon, which led directly to the Awakening of Men. Feanor’s selfish choice to deny the Silmarils to Yavanna was actually the correct decision.

@maxmercer1931 7 дней назад

@@timonsolus perhaps. However, the light of the Silmarils were hallowed by Varda. The light of the new two trees might have been made to burn Melkor and Ungoliant because of that. Besides, nothing would stop the creation of the sun and moon from the fruit of the new trees

@licmir3663 7 дней назад

You are mistaken. The Doom of Mandos was not a curse, but a prediction of what would come. He warned the elves that the path that they had chosen would only lead to death and suffering. Mandos himself was not causing that. The Valar did prohibit the elves from returning (which is why their later attempts at sending envoys failed, until Earendil’s trip), but they were not casting any kind spell over the elves to make them suffer.

@orrointhewise87 8 дней назад

"It is a risk we all took." Interesting that a few adjustments here and there would have changed the entire outcome of the world. But one key difference is the mindset during this time. The strife among races, the arrogance of certain elves, even the simple fear of the dark lord is enough to derail any success. Without changing the way some people think, the same outcome is likely Makes one wonder how many changes in your own life could be made to turn defeat into victory

@melkhiordarkfell4354 8 дней назад

Step 1, the Beren and Luthien story as normal, until Luthien sings in Morgoths throne room and puts him to sleep. Step 2, instead of cutting a Silmaril from the crown, Beren cuts Morgoths throat. Step 3, Victory keg party.

@thebeatles114 7 дней назад

LOL 🤣🤣

@KaiHung-wv3ul 6 дней назад

Morgoth's a pretty chunky boi, I'm not sure if the dagger could've cut that deep lol.

@TheCountZopolai 8 дней назад

It's strongly implied that they could *in principle*. The fandom has a tendency to assume that the Ainur (and especially the Valar) are beings of almost limitless power throughout the legendarium, but that isn't really how it works. It's described in Morgoth's Ring as each Ainur having something like a resevoir of creative power gifted to them by Eru Iluvatar. Some more, some less- the Valar more, Maiar less, Morgoth most of all. That resevoir gets *spent* by acts of creation, leaving the Ainur somewhat diminised by it. So Aule put much of his resevoir into the Dwarves (and the mountains, and minerals, and crafting technology, and so forth); the Two Trees were most of Yavanna (as were the Ents and the forests of Middle Earth); and, in doing so, they lost the ability to do so again. In fact, it's integral to the plot of the Lord of the Rings- Sauron, and Ainur himself, has put the vast majority of his essence into the One Ring, and so is much diminshed by its loss. So most of the Valar have spend most of their resevoir by the start of the Years of the Trees. Morgoth is no exception; pouring the vast majority of his native strength into the corruption of the world itself. By the start of the Years of the Trees, Morgoth is portrayed, physically, as barely greater in stature than Sauron in the Second Age, if at all. So, by the end of the Year of the Trees, Morgoth is plainly weaker than, at least, Ungoliant (whatever she really is). Ungoliant, in turn, is so fearful of the order of Balrogs that she will not fight all of them at once. *Feanor*, by contrast, while killed by the order of Balrogs, is at least able to put up a significant fight against them. It seems to me to follow that Feanor was, at least, a significant physical threat to Morgoth. Mind you... it does appear simply that fate was against them, and so they did not, and perhaps could not. It's an philosophical, not a practical, question.

@magmar7118 8 дней назад

If Tinuviel lulls Morgoth to sleep then even a halfling could defeat him!

@peterkamau2014 8 дней назад

I always like to think that Feanor had the skill to fashion weapons that could in theory bind Morgoth, had he just sat down and let his tempers cool.

@Treyvah 4 дня назад

One possibility I keep thinking about after seeing this video, and reading this comment is that if Feanor could have weaponized the Silmarils, made them into swords or other weapons, the Light of the Two Trees could have damaged Morgoth so severely that even if he wasn't killed, he would be too incapacitated to fight. At the very least, like Yoystan said, his physical form -- his manifested hröa -- could have been obliterated, with perhaps enough of his overall fëa injured to make him less of a threat ... at least for a time. If he had been able to be injured by Elves at this point, he already spent so much of his native power and this and a coordinated assault could have been enough to truly devastate him. Edit: One issue would be retrieving the Silmarils from Morgoth and his crown. He can wear them but not touch them, or have them touch him. So maybe my theory would not work. But it is a nice thought anyway. If only Luthien's song worked for longer, but that would have to happen much later on in the timeline.

@sandramarafonsecateles5071 8 дней назад

I can easily see the 3 brothers (Feanor, Fingolfin and Finarfin) fighting side by side at the end to avenge their father, perhaps dying in the end. A great video, Yoystan.

@Gigas0101 8 дней назад

Makes me think of Zhang Fei, Guan Yu, and Liu Bei battling Lu Bu. It would've been legendary.

@concept5631 8 дней назад

That's probably *_whats going to happen_* at Dagor Dagorath.

@Alexs.2599 8 дней назад

@@concept5631 Dagor Dagorath in the legendarium has not taken place yet. That will be at our current world's end.

@concept5631 8 дней назад

@@Alexs.2599 Edited my comment

@shauntempley9757 6 дней назад

@@Alexs.2599 Yes, except Feanor STILL will not incarnate. I personally think that breaking the Silmarils should be up to Celebrimbor.

@jackolantern147 8 дней назад

I remember reading somewhere before the elves left Valinor that they were warned they were doomed to fail. Even if they were "thrice stronger". Meaning if even the other races of Elves left with the Noldor, they still were to have failed without the Ainur.

@Tar-Elenion 8 дней назад

Messenger of Manwe to Feanor: "Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Eä, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art.’" Flight of the Noldor

@primal1233 8 дней назад

This is an amazing theory, good job as always

@saladinbob 8 дней назад

Only problem with going early is that Morgoth hadn't expended much of his power so he could have just opened up the ground beneath the army and killed them all. For them to have any chance of destroying him they needed him to be weakened which ends up with events playing out as they did.

@James77721 8 дней назад

You are the OG of LOR lore my dude! Excellent video and thanks for making it!

@Comicnut64 8 дней назад

Perfect timing Yoystan I’m liking this semi theory video

@user-gh6gf2tb9e 5 дней назад

I always try to watch these wonderful lore videos in the cool of the evening, outside sitting by my chickens near the edge of our woods, smoking my churchwarden pipe ( home made hobbit pipes) your videos are silmarils in their own right. Thank you friend and God bless

@ebeneezerscrooge8394 8 дней назад

He was an angel, immortal, equal in power to Manwe. Even Valar couldn't "kill" Valar. Any type of "Victory" for the elves would have be short lived and Morgoth would prevail in the end

@Disgruntled_Grunt 8 дней назад

I think you're right. Barring direct intervention from the Valar (vis-a-vis Doors of Night) the only way I could see Morgoth being defeated permanently is waiting for him to externalize too much of his innate power the way Sauron did later on. But even then, since Morgoth imbued his power into the world itself rather than a single destructible object, that weakness would be even less exploitable than Sauron's. The only way to defeat him would be to confront him in person, which I don't see as a realistic goal if he had enough time to consolidate his power in Beleriand . . . and the only reason he wasn't able to do that was because of divine-ish intervention from the West.

@frjoji5685 6 дней назад

Even the strongest opponent cannot prevail against an army.

@KaiHung-wv3ul 6 дней назад

The Valar could've killed Morgoth, they just didn't choose to. When he took the Silmarils, his soul was eternally bound to his corporeal form, meaning if his body dies, he effectively dies as well.

@user-sd7ri9fy4i 8 дней назад

Nice work dude thanks

@kaidorade1317 8 дней назад

If all Elves, Dwarves and Men were like unto Feanor and Legolas, the very powers of hell would be shaken forever

@jmagn 7 дней назад

I see what you did there

@dmitrizverev3142 7 дней назад

Very nice video 👌 Completely agree. The Noldor really did become complacent, and that, unbeknownst to them, served as their downfall. Thought of that many times whilst reading the Silmarillion.

@Steven-op5zv 3 дня назад

A thoroughly considered "what-if"! However, and I say the following with love for your work, Yoystan, this one needs too many divergence points, and I agree that all of them would be necessary for it. Together as a whole, they were "machine," driving a plot that fails to allow the credible amounts of failure, disappointment and loss by which JRRT built verisimilitude.

@deadbrother5355 8 дней назад

Have you already done a deep dive on Ancalagon the black? One of my favorite baddies.

@darktenor4967 7 дней назад

One thing you don't mention, the first men awoke at the rising of the sun, yet there was some trouble in their past by the time they reached beleriand, trouble clearly caused by Morgoth. I always wondered if the elves early victories also occurred because Morgoth was off in the east of the world trying to capture and corrupt men, perhaps taking some captive as he had with the first elves. If this was the case, then a united Noldor/Sindar/Dwarven host might well have dealt with Morgoth's lesser servants and captains more easily, but also left time for him to regroup, since we know when his strong places were defeated, Morgoth; like Sauron later on, tended to make a withdrawl only to come back with greater strength when he'd built up his forces. So personally, I suspect Angband could've been broken, and perhaps even Sauron and Gothmog distroyed or dispersed, but Morgoth would then have just kept away, retreated; perhaps to his old fortress of Utumno, or to make peace with Ungoliant, only to return at a later time, and likely still require the Valar's intervention, albeit without the Kingslaying and doom of Mandos, that intervention might have come more quickly.

@AndrewCarlisle11B 8 дней назад

Really enjoyed this one. Lots of interesting scenarios to think about.

@niyanlan8928 7 дней назад

I think there is something to be said for keeping up the fight on Morgoth in the early days and not allowing him to build up his strength. If you look at the Battle of Midway, the Americans were beaten time and time again and lost so many aircraft in uncoordinated attacks but by keeping up the pressure they never allowed the Japanese to regroup and organise and eventually the pressure took hold and after the tipping point was reached they achieved a stunning and total victory.

@Neod55 8 дней назад

Your content is amazing!

@charlesphilips2045 8 дней назад

I don't know if you have done it already, but I would really love to hear a well-written episode of what if, on this topic.

@sageofcaledor8188 2 дня назад

Great video!

@adjarho 8 дней назад

I suggested you made this video about 4 months ago! 👍🏽

@TheSaneHatter 8 дней назад

There is another approach we could take to this speculation, and perhaps it is a simpler one: addressing the prophecy given to Turgon in Gondolin. As you may recall, he was told that he could either retreat from the world with his people and be forever safe, while abandoning it to Morgoth forever, or he could strike immediately and win an ultimate victory at terrible cost. Alas, he did neither, but it seems logical to wonder what "option #2" would have looked like.

@pinkace 8 дней назад

No people on middle earth was ever defeated by Morgoth (or Sauron) had they not first defeated themselves. So yes, without first having division, darkness can never take hold.

@WhoIsCalli 7 дней назад

Fun video, thanks

@andrewhead1840 6 часов назад

I’d love to see an epic battle between Morgoth, and all the great Elvin heroes.

@comicfan8713 8 дней назад

You already did a video on gil galad, I have cool ideas how about an Eonwe epic character history or what if Arnor never fall or why the valar did not do more to stop Sauron

@sophiejones3554 8 дней назад

They were EXTREMELY close as it was. Like, literally if Maedhros had been five minutes faster or if Ulfang hadn't betrayed him. Maedhros, Turgon and Fingon were absolutely old and powerful enough to defeat the balrogs and storm Angband. They might not have been able to duel Morgoth, but drive him out? Absolutely. I would disagree about the "early push" theory. There was a good few hundred years between Fëanor's demise and Fingolfin's duel, a few hundred years in which Morgoth spent his power unwisely. Tolkien goes out of his way to include that detail in the chapter covering Fingolfin's duel. Morgoth's individual power decreased over the time between the arrival of the Noldor and the Dagor Bragollach, and continued decreasing. Maedhros was not wrong about the correct time to strike, nor about the force required for such a strike.

@RonnieLeeDuck 8 дней назад

The problem with the whole premise of this video is that Morgoth caused the kinslaying at Alqualonde. Tolkein makes clear it was all based on the lies and half truths Morgoth had sowed among the Noldor. So basically Morgoth had already won before it ever began.

@msc8090 8 дней назад

I'd have to agree, I think overthrowing Morgoth was possible for sure. Also keep in mind, that the elves at this time had just seen the light from Valinor, they outmatched Orcs by far and their "heavy hitters" probably also outmatched several balrogs. Sure, they might not completely have wiped out Morgoth for good, but defeat him, probably cast him out and banish him.

@letstacobout 8 дней назад

❤

@roverboy006 7 дней назад

Early was the best chance. The longer Morgath had to corrupt the men and creatures around him the less likely the Noldor had to confront him directly. There is a reason the Valor had to eventually step in, instead of indirectly assisting. The Noldor lost all chance.

@Gigas0101 8 дней назад

Sauron was smote and defeated by Isildur, only surviving because of how my of himself he had put into the One Ring but still rendered impotent for a long time. Saruman, when Grima stabbed him, was slain and his spirit dispersed when he was denied a return to the West. I agree with this video, and wish to add that Melkor's spirit could be extinguished by the arms of the Elves. It may take many defeats, or striking when his power is waning and depleted, but the loss of their physical body seems quite taxing for the Maiar. Why not the Valar, too?

@meganfoster8838 8 дней назад

The Noldor were under the Doom, but the Sindar and the Silvan elves weren't, so possibly they could have overthrown Morgoth, especially with the help of Men and Dwarves.

@upschutt4842 8 дней назад

Interesting theory :)

@CuttinEJ 8 дней назад

Manwe warned them. There was no chance or possibility that they could ever defeat any Vala even if they were 3 times greater than they were. But even as the trumpet sang and Feanor issued from the gates of Tirion a messenger came at last from Manwe, saying: 'Against the folly of Feanor shall be set my counsel only. Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee. No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they hinder you; for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart. But thou Feanor Finwe’s son, by thine oath art exiled. The lies of Melkor thou shalt unlearn in bitterness. Vala he is, thou saist. Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art.’

@davidandrews2972 8 дней назад

I think that Feanor would have struggled to keep his host together - part of the reason for the kinslaying was that he needed to get the troops on the road before their blood cooled and they had a chance to consider. Assuming that he'd managed that, it's possible, especially as the elves were unwearied. Morgoth was mightier than anyone, but not perhaps than everyone. As to what they could have done to him, I think that realistically the most that they could have managed would have been to unbody Morgoth for a while. He could no longer change form or walk unclad by flesh, so it would have weakened him considerably, although in time he could reform as Sauron did in later ages. An interesting variant on this would have been if Men had stayed loyal at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad; Morgoth had emptied Angband to fight the assembled hosts, if they had won then he would have had to flee or be taken.

@yodaslovetoy 8 дней назад

Couple of a-10's, some apache helicopters, 100+ m60 machine guns, and a tactical nuke or two....

@batatmi День назад

I want to point out that Manwë sent a messenger to the Noldor even before the Kinslaying, just before they left Tirion. Among other things, he said that they could not defeat Morgoth for he is a Vala. While even Manwë isn't beyond mistakes, I do think that this needs to be taken into account when discussing this topic.

@LewisChristisonVids 7 дней назад

Another thing to consider is the men. Having a small group of elves go far eastward and sew an uprising against Morgoth would deny him another large resource, and prevent him from bringing a large host of humans into his armies.

@claytonbarnett7084 7 дней назад

I agree that everything hinges on the Kinslaying not happening. Beyond that, a sudden rush of the united Eldar would make sense. However, in creating all those beasts and corrupting the land itself (letting his power and essence flow out of him to mar the world), even if a first rush didnt work, he would be weakened for a strike say, 2-4 hundred years later. It may sound like a long time to us, but it is basically a 3-day weekend for the elves. It all comes back down to Feanor's pride. "Sin makes you stupid."

@Didymus20X6 3 дня назад

How did I miss this video?

@09stoneheart 8 дней назад

I've got an intriguing scenario for you Yoystan! "What if Morgoth had returned the Silmarils to Feanor?" After the battle under the stars, when Feanor charged off on his own, instead of the jaded King of the Noldor finding an ambush of Balrogs he instead runs into emissaries from Morgoth with an offer to return Silmarils in return for peace, allowing Morgoth to continue residing within Angband unharmed. The dark lord gambling that Freanor cared more about getting his Silmarils back, which is what I believe, than avenging his father and the destruction of the Two Trees; as a way for Morgoth to buy time to rejuvenate his armies and sire more deatrictive beasts and reclaim the great jewels in the end.

@Cytl-bu3nq 8 дней назад

Flights of Fancy, even more so than the story itself

@raphaeltomaz634 8 дней назад

Fingonfin was only capable of damaging Morgoth because of Morgoth's already diminished power upon the creation of dragons and other evil things (Morgoth's ring). Because of that, I doubt Morgoth could have been defeated in combat by elves in the early years of the first age. He still had too much power. Still, interesting video, as always!

@niniel73 8 дней назад

I read now beautifully long fanfiction (almost 4.5 times longer than Silmarillion at this point) where they won Nírnaeth Arnoediad (with a small help from Vaire, there is a Nírnaeth time loop where only Maedhros remembers what happened before and after 60 attempts they win).

@mariophreak 7 дней назад

What's the name of this fanfiction?

@niniel73 7 дней назад

@@mariophreak Aure Entuluva series by Scribe of Arda on AO3. This is the first part, A Thread Unraveled

@medikor9190 8 дней назад

I think it would have been a doomed endeavor. I like to think that all the events that weakened the elves early on were all part of a greater plan that served their purpose. I believe Melkor would have always managed to fake his demise only to come back down the road to wipe out an unsuspecting Middle-Earth with an overwhelming force. The way things played out was the longer and harder road, but how it was all planned by Illuvatar to ensure the total defeat of Melkor in the end.

@MrRaisinBran 8 дней назад

I have to wonder what would have happened in this timeline going forward.

@dominicsmith5588 8 дней назад

The key to victory for the elves would have been burning down all the Hot Topics's in the First Age...then could be no..."More-Goths!" ;)

@Meauss 8 дней назад

Imagine a captured Melkor eventually winning over the hearts of his captors and drawing them into his service. Such a scenario would be truly devastating for the Elves.

@jeffhallam2004 8 дней назад

Great video but it only appeared 11 hours after you posted! How is this even possible?

@SpacePatrollerLaser 8 дней назад

If you listen to the current KINGS AND GENERALS vid. you see that it was the disunity fo the European powers is what let the Mongols be as succsessful as they were in the 1240-60 timeframe with the Pope, Holy Roman Empire, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania and Rus Princes squabbling and fighting among themselves like 3 year olds over a set of blocks in a playroom

@SophiesDriver 8 дней назад

The first kin slaying arose directly from Fëanor's creation of, and obsession with. the three Silmarils. Oh sweet, sweet, poor, poor Fëanor. ... Galadriel knew

@venkelos6996 8 дней назад

I still don't totally understand why Morgoth COULD be hurt? So, totally unrelated, but one of my favorite book series is the Begaraid/Mallorean, by David and Leigh Eddings, and one of the cool things that incorporated was that gods USUALLY couldn't be hurt, except by each other. The evil god Torak would have been a practically unassailable foe, barring killing ever Angarak who lives, until an object of power from outside the world was found, and when Torak misused it, it burned off his hand, and boiled out one of his eyes. This would be bad enough as a temporary injury, but that was the problem; it wouldn't be temporary, AMF not simply because of the power of the object. As gods were effectively invulnerable, the universe never granted them an ability to heal; it would literally never be necessary, and so they lacked it, meaning the immortal god had to carry his injuries, and bear their pain, forever, or at least until he was later killed. So, why were the Valar not similar? They were immortal, and certainly never intended to fight. Making them vulnerable to injury could have allowed even more fracture, so why were they so "weak"? And I get that's a dumb word, and the likes of Melkor were stupidly powerful, but Fingolfin's weapon wasn't made by Aule, or touched by Eru Illuvatar. I could easily believe that Anduril could have similarly done harm to Morgoth, had it been there. It's kind of like why didn't Sauron; a great smith, and craftsman, make a suit of mithril armor? Frodo's tanked a spear from a troll, so even great impact strength was at least partially muted. One would think either of these celestial beings could have shored up their physical resilience, and then used their power to offset any loss of agility, or dexterity, but they didn't, and proved that if they could just be drawn into combat they could be felled. And it's not like it was easy; Sauron killed Gil-Galad and Elendil, while Morgoth did finally crush Fingolfin, but with Tolkien having the faith he did, it often seems odd, to me, that angels could be torn down by the hands of mortals.

@StrikeTheSkyline 8 дней назад

Well, given Tolkiens catholicism it actually makes sense, multiple times in catholic canon humans and angels have interactions that put them a lot closer to each other than you'd think, like how angels had children with humans, or how Jacob wrestled physically with an angel (or God himself, depending on your version) But even if that hadn't been the case, Tolkien said many times that what he wrote wasn't intentionally 1:1 allegory, and the Ainur are all capable of being hurt, it's just difficult to manage. To boot, Melkor had placed large amounts of his power into the world, which brings him much lower in personal strength, making it possible at all for the mightiest among elves to contend with him

@sarahluchies1076 8 дней назад

From what I understand, once an Ainur or Maia took physical form, that form could be hurt or killed, like with Gandalf and Sauron on Numenor. The being that inhabited the form would live on, just not in Middle Earth.

@Alexs.2599 8 дней назад

An Ainur's bodily raiment could be hurt or destroyed. However it was their Fëa(Soul, spirit) that could not.

@venkelos6996 8 дней назад

@@Alexs.2599 I guess I just don't see, then, why immortal beings with some measure if mastery over the natural world, couldn't will themselves into it in forms more resilient? A powerful body made out of stone, or clad in armor forged of rhe strongest metal? Aule forged chains so strong Melkor couldn't break them, and mithril IA already a "natural" part of the world, so I can't see too much reason why the Ainur would feel compelled to assume forms that so strongly mirror our own, and seemingly often carry at least some of our own frailties. They wouldn't have to be made of flesh, or be constrained by the weight, or sluggishness, of stone, and apart from assuming forms like ours to better interact with us, I'd assume most of them could be more protean, and assume forms more made for purpose, instead of by strict rules; at least the strong ones.

@Alexs.2599 8 дней назад

@@venkelos6996 The Ainur are powerful, they were the holy beings that sprang from Eru's mind. Now the ones that entered Arda who became the Valar and Maiar were able to take on physical forms. However those forms were nonetheless corporeal. Those bodies were not indestructable because they were formed within Arda. Just like Elves, while immortal, their physical forms could still suffer pain and damage. Because Arda(our Earth) is within the material realm. Just like the Ainur within Arda could cause great damage upon the earth greatt could be inflicted on their visible forms. It's Tolkien's concept for his secondary world. He just didn't create the idea that the Valar and Maia could give themselves damage proof bodies. It was just not what he wrote for his high fantasy.

@istari0 8 дней назад

An interesting what-if. I agree that the Kin-slaying had to be avoided and the Elves would have to have been united and attacked Morgoth early on. However, I am dubious that they ever would have been able to breach Angband. Even as weakened as he was, Morgoth would have still been a Vala-class being fighting from an extraordinarily defensible position with the aid of Sauron, the Balrogs, and various other creatures he had as subordinates. The Elves still would have ended up needing the assistance of the Valar to take Angband. I also think Morgoth made a mistake in holing up in Angband. He should have made more of an effort to bring Men he had corrupted earlier in from farther east in Middle-Earth. Sauron did not make that mistake in later ages.

@mcchungusamungus8011 8 дней назад

A thought occurs: How would the Valar react to the elves actually managing to defeat Morgoth (especially after that Doom of the Noldor incident in Valinor)?

@Emanon... 8 дней назад

Aule corrupted everything and everyone he dealt with, and that was without even trying (!). How's that for an evil lord of darkness... And he got away with it too!

@mr.zardoz3344 8 дней назад

NEVER TRUST AN ELF!!!!!! -Gimili son of Gloin

@lynneglendenning947 8 дней назад

Slaughter tore her heart in two, for she stole from Nellie. (Nessie)

@denizen9998 8 дней назад

And there goes Sauron as well...

@marionbaggins 8 дней назад

Compaired to the over 14 Million chance for Beating Thanos in Infinity War and Endgame, This was Tricky... And your right where to start is Avoiding and Hate between Elves, and all will be mostly Great from there!!! Thanks for this Interesting Thoughts/Scenario, Until Gil Galad ReECH...Marion Baggins Out!!!

@daniell1483 8 дней назад

Neat idea. Though, wouldn't Morgoth be at his greatest strength? The long watchful peace seemed to give Morgoth to prepare yes, but only at the cost of his personal power, no? So an early assault from the elves would have seen Morgoth near his apex, or at least that is how I understand things.

@TheMasonK 8 дней назад

Perhaps Morgoth would’ve been captured and brought back to Valinor again. However, would the second judgement of the Valar on Morgoth have been as harsh in this alternate timeline? Without the subsequent war of wrath plus all the evil that preceded it does the Valar still feel the need to send him back through to the timeless halls? Perhaps Morgoth is able to plead for mercy and is given a chance to repent for his sins (more than likely he wouldn’t) instead. Also with Beleriand still in tact, do the elves turn it into a paradise afterwards? Last of all, do sauron and/or any of Morgoth’s greatest servants escape the destruction of Angband this time around and become dark lords themselves? Does Sauron possibly repent for his actions (since less evil would have been committed by him in this timeline) and travel back to Valinor to face judgement from the Valar? So many questions!

@stefandebeer9375 8 дней назад

Here is another theory you could explore: What would have happened if the Edain kept going west into Beleriand all the way the the Helcarxë(or even over it to Valinor) since Valinor and ME was still connected? You could also in a second what if be like, despite the harsh weather and terrain what would have happened if the Edain reached Valinor? (This could be different from the Numenórians that went to Valinor to make war, while the edain just kept on going west with no ill-intent)

@Alexs.2599 8 дней назад

The Valar would have halted them. The Second Children of Illuvatar as a whole did not have permission to enter Valinor under any circumstances.

@paulwagner688 8 дней назад

However, in that first century, Morgoth had not yet dispersed his strength into his creatures and elsewhere. He still would have been Melkor, He who Arises in Might. At BEST, had things not transpired the way they did, the Noldor COULD have recovered the Silmarils, but not defeated Morgoth. It would have taken the full repentance of Feanor and his traveling back to Aman to surrender the Silmarils to Yavanna that relief would have come. And after the Trees had been rekindled, then Eru would have gifted Feanor to be able to recreate his masterpiece for all the Noldor to share.

@samwisegamgee8318 8 дней назад

basically, feanor needed to not be a vile psycopath and then morgoth would've been overthrown.

@paul0wen65 8 дней назад

Considering that Morgoth had already caused division during the music of Illuvatar, along with other evil deeds in Valinor prior to the events of the First Age, I don't believe the Elves stood much of a chance to begin with. He slew Feanor's father in the Undying lands, destroyed the Lamps, and killed the Trees with the help of Ungoliant. Given the power of oaths as mentioned in previous videos, I suggest that the cards were stacked against the Elves in a powerful way before the curse of Mandos was uttered. But that's just my "theory."

@danielhernandez6705 4 дня назад

Could Melkor have established a plan to doom the children of lluvatar by cursing their awakening?

@ethanarnold4441 5 дней назад

Even if everything went perfectly for the Elves and they defeated Morgoth and all of his forces, what then? What would they do with Morgoth? They needed Manwe to cast Morgoth out into the Timeless Void and ensure he couldn't threaten the world ever again. The Elves would probably need to hand him over to the Valar. And what about Sauron? What would the Elves do with him?

@alfieingrouille1528 8 дней назад

By far my least favourite aspect of Tolkien's world aside from the lack of info on the east and south is the sinking of beleriand

@adamcrookedsmile 7 дней назад

my least favourite is howling the dwarves lose basically every settlement we know by name. Gundabad, Moria, Erebor, Belegost Nogrod and so forth. All were destroyed. Only Dain Ironfoot's settlement seems defensible.

@Fallout3131 6 дней назад

Why do you dislike sinking beleriand?

@alfieingrouille1528 9 часов назад

I just find it depressing and unessecary for the world@Fallout3131

@alfieingrouille1528 9 часов назад

@Fallout3131 I hate it cause it adds nothing all it does is destroy lands with rich history

@alfieingrouille1528 9 часов назад

@@Fallout3131the story wouldn't even change if it didn't sink numenor would still have existed regardless all the history of eriador would've remained the same

@Halbared 8 дней назад

Stronger in his innate form. By the time of the fingolfin scrap, Melkor was tied to corporeal defeats.

@CybeleCotter 8 дней назад

Never could the Elves have defeated Morgoth on their own, even if entirely unified. We forget that Morgoth was much stronger by himself in the earlier days, before he squandered his strength in so many ways among so many projects and armies. Were he that weak, then Beren or Luthien could have slain him on the floor of Thangorodrim. How long was the War of Wrath? How many years did it take the combined forces of all the Valar PLUS the Elves PLUS Dwarves PLUS Men to finally defeat Morgoth? And even then, he was still alive beyond the doors of night. Let's not delude ourselves.

@pandoraeeris7860 8 дней назад

Morgoth cannot be defeated. Build. Me. An. Army. Worthy. Of. Mordor.

@joshpetersen5968 6 дней назад

Interesting video, but I'm pretty sure there was no point where the elves could have won against Melkor/Morgoth. Firstly Melkor/Morgoth was a Vala. If an alliance would form between the Noldor, Sindar, Sylvan elves and the Dwarves due to no Kinslaying, had managed to overthrow Angband(Which I doubt they could given how deep it had been delved; the three mountain peaks at its gates were the spoil from when they dug the place out; and just how many horrors it contained[Balrogs, Orcs and other beasts created by Morgoths malice]) and got into position to kill Morgoth, he would be able to do what Sauron did after he fought Elendil and Gil Galad, simply abandon his physical form and run to lick his wounds, restore himself and rebuild, maybe even totally corrupting Men to his service and wiping out any that would've become the Edain before they could be born. Then he could return to a Beleriand with a tidal wave of Orcs, Men, Half Orcs, Trolls and anything else he could have come up with in the meantime.The only chance they'd have is if the Valar had accompanied the Noldor against Morgoth and captured him to imprison him. That would never happen due to the Oath of Feanor. Second, while we have seen Morgoth wounded on a number of occasions(including some wounds grievous enough to permanently mar him) All of those wounds were inflicted on a diminished Morgoth, one where the vast majority of his power had been dispersed into practically everything in Arda and especially into his creations like Dragons. While a powerful Noldo like Feanor, Glorfindel or Fingolfin could kill Maia like Balrogs or maybe even Sauron and could wound a vastly weakened Morgoth, he is still a Vala and they would not be able to fight him properly. Remember it took the the entire Host of the Valar led by Eonwe(IIRC one of the strongest Maia to exist) during the War of Wrath 40 Years to overthrow Angband and capture Morgoth. IMO the way the War of the Great Jewels ended, in a bittersweet, almost Pyrrhic, victory was ultimately the only way the War could've ended. Any other outcome was pretty much impossible, but even if they somehow managed it, it would only be a Siege of Angband writ large. A few centuries or millennia of false peace before a renewed storm.

@ailediablo79 8 дней назад

That is impossible especially as he was physically more powerful then. The only reason they where not defeated early on is because he was over careful worrying about their plot armor and because he is a coward.

@user-td9hp6li5h 7 дней назад

Clearly, the Elves were not going to win if they left it late, but bear in mind if they went early they (at least the Noldor) were not fully established in Middle Earth. Morgoth was also more powerful back then, it has to be remembered, prior to expending much of his power in creating the very dragons that this plan might wish to avoid by going early. Perhaps the best time might have been during the seige of Angband as a balance point between the two extremes. Still, I think there are too many "ifs" to have happened simultaneously for this to have occurred.

@MrARock001 8 дней назад

Morgoth could have been "defeated" if Finwë had been a better father.

@maxmercer1931 8 дней назад

Only Feanor could have

@lordnamelessofsomnium5824 5 дней назад

Go burn in Hell. He is the worst elf in the whole story. Not discounting his power.

@DaveHudson-es1do 5 дней назад

What happens to sauron if morgoth was defeated

@neilbakshi7365 4 дня назад

Here's the biggest problem with this theory. Melkor was the first of the Ainur that sang in the First Music and created the world. He's the most powerful being in the universe after Iluvatar. What does "defeat" even mean in that case? Even if you subscribe to the theory that he was incarnated into a mortal body that could be killed (which I don't believe was ever stated) as opposed to the "raiment" that the Valar used, killing that doesn't really do anything. The first time Sauron's body was killed, he popped back up in less than 100 years and started swinging. The second time, a few thousand years. What does it matter in the big picture? He will always be there. I think this is an unspoken reason why Tolkien described the war against Morgoth as "hopeless."

@ClaymoreLinx 7 дней назад

It makes sense though, the precosmogonic cannot rid evil from the world. Morgoth could never have been defeated in the first age. It is actually why Sauron's downfall was so significant. Men, after all, must be invoved in evil's downfall. It has to so with their nature. By their nature the Elves of Bellariand would not have the axis needed to defeat Melkor.

@esjope 4 дня назад

This shows so well why we all must be united against Russia where Sauron's surviving spirit resides behind the walls of Kreml.

@Shaden0040 8 дней назад

usually what a scenario that I haven't seen anybody talk about what if Mary or Pippen had gotten the ring? Let's say when the black riders were looking for Frodo on the road they killed Frodo and Sam disheartened went home but somehow Mary and Pippen got the ring? that's just what suggest scenario of how they could have gotten it or when they could have gotten it excuse me. but it'd be interesting to see what would have happened if Mary were Pippen had gotten the ring and had to take it all the way to mortar or decided to keep the ring in the first place like Pippen I could see doing that each is so I want to know what's under the under the cloth what's the big round thing I want to know I want to know I want to know Very curious topic mary is more advanced he likes to go places they took the walk in Bree and ended up talking to the nozzle. so that would be an interesting take what if Mary or pivot head in Had gotten the ring and decided to either take it to Mordor or keep it themselves after heading through Rubenville. I always look kind of like at Bury and Pippen after Sam as alternate ring bears potential ring bears or something up in a frodo sample to take in the rain is something having a sample I think Mary or Pitman would have taken the ring because no one else could have safely taken it where Aragorn couldn't Legolas and gimme couldn't have done it or more certainly couldn't have taken it It survived gandalf couldn't touch it who else could deal with the damn thing they were purposely allowed to go as alternate ring bears in case something happened to Frodo and or Sam after photos demise

@john-er6or 8 дней назад

Good Lord, reading this was like watching Biden at the debate, lol.

@Byenie0912 7 дней назад

Morgoth is like a MTW2 player spamming add_money, process_cq, and process_rq cheats Without gunpowder technology, I don’t think the Noldor had any chance of winning the war. With cannons, they can siege angband. With cannons, they can fight dragons. With rifles, the men’s population can be fully utilised to fight in mid range

@Gromborscht 7 дней назад

There were no elves; simple as that. Such a hypothesis

@tommyduncan12 8 дней назад

tweak the lore a tiny bit and equip those elves with AWP snipers, and sure, they could have beat morgoth 👍

@Spartan-Of-Truth 8 дней назад

My French bulldog could have defeated Morgoth.

@kreuzrittergottes9336 8 дней назад

At no time was this ever possible.

@Fallout3131 6 дней назад

He literally explains during the video times it was possible.

@kreuzrittergottes9336 5 дней назад

@@Fallout3131 so if the story was other than it is. got it. I suppose if faenor just gave the silmarils to the valar when asked for them they would have won to eh?

@CuttinEJ 8 дней назад

Morgoth could not have been defeated or killed by any elf or host of elves because he was not like them. Elves were not truly immortal because, though they did not get sick or grow old and die, they could be slain. Not so, the Valar. Even after his final defeat in The War Of Wrath, Morgoth was not killed because even the other Valar could not kill him. He could be wounded and expelled into the outer darkness, but he could not be destroyed by any power less than Eru himself. The elves may have hindered him. They may even have broken his fortress. But they would never have defeated him because he would simply slip away and return at a time of his own choosing. And yes, I know, his ability to change form had been diminished, but only to the extent that he could no longer assume a fair form. He could still shed his physical form, but when he once again took on a physical form it could only be that of a dark, malicious tyrant.

@whiteknightcat 8 дней назад

What might have happened if Fingolfin, Fëanor, Finarfin, Thingol, Galadriel, Turgon, and Finrod and others all been present at a fight against Morgoth? Easy. In the Amazon Prime version, Morgoth would have made short work of all the male elves, leaving "Strong Woman" to scare him off in the end.

@colemantrantham9264 8 дней назад

After reading all the books I can say with confidence that due to the The elves incompetence and arrogance none of the events in the books would have happened if they have done their job.

@SRWhitting 3 дня назад

You need to read them again.

@Adamadam-zc6pe 8 дней назад

Personally, I disagree. I don’t think that any force of elves or dwarves could have stood up against Morgoth and Sauron and all the Balrogs. I think it would need other Ainur.

@factanonverba7547 8 дней назад

Blasphemy. There is no victory without Eru Illuvatar.

@Durandal 8 дней назад

Here’s how Berniethor can still win

@galabiri 7 дней назад

A nice theory. Moving forward, I wish you could speak more slowly, as you speak too fast (really, what's the rush?) and it took me three times to understand each sentence. It's tiresome, even if it's interesting.