@@cheatsykoopa98 doom is a 99% single player game, you pretty much can't go wrong with those the demons are not gonna complain about your minigun, your homing rocket launcher, your chainsaw instakills, cause they're not living breathing humans with feelings and a sense of "that's bullshit".
@@the_Red_Star ok but the devs can take inspiration and then balance them. heavy has good medium to close range firepower but he completely lacks in speed and anyone far away can either fight from a distance or just run away
@@the_Red_Star you propably tried to use more iq than u have. BECAUSE doom is single, they could see a cool movie and decide to add a part to it, as there's no pvp balance.
*Summary* Scout, Sniper, Soldier, Medic, Demo: OG Heavy: Cool movie Pyro: Anti-lag countermeasure Spy: "Cool bug, put it in" Engi: Fight without fighting
Assuming nobody was going to work together was a smart move xD Overwatch has the opposite approach and this is probably why the game doesn't give me those satisfying 'carrying' moments
Yah Overwatch is a game where there is a constant heavy reliance on your team. This means that when you are going to be paired with a bunch of randoms, there is a good chance things won’t go well. The fact that each team only has 6 players only makes it worse since even one bad player can be a heavy burden on your team.
Imagine making a game with team in the name and then proceed to make it centered around the fact that its players don't want to cooperate with each other. madlads.
I *think* Overwatch compensates with one button win ults that can allow you to carry a fight. Though, that's the only situation I can think of where you are likely to backpack mode a whole team. There's a lot of differences between the games that make solo play in TF2 far more entertaining. TF2, for one, has less hardline rock paper scissor based classes. There are definitely some weaker combat classes, but it's not as drastic as Overwatch. Also there are less absolute mechanics in TF2 (less instakills, stuns, invulnerability etc). In general, you feel helpless in Overwatch far more often than in TF2, which I guess is exactly what you said in a more succinct way. :)
What's the problem with that? If I don't enjoy a game as an individual I ain't gonna play it, and I don't expect anyone else would if they felt the same.
@@zak9399 I'm implying the exact opposite of what you're thinking. Many game choices nowadays are not made by developers. They are made by the people who want to milk as much money as possible regardless of the cost of the enjoyment of the game.
@@gegethedog note that the "is an ass and we won't be working with it again" comes from gaben himself, he made a statement on a dota 2 caster 2GD after the latter went a little bit overboard with some jokes at an event in china
@@meyes5671 I mean, it still is if you don't use the newer weapons. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Every class/character based game needs a crutch character. The only problem with crutch characters is when they don't fall off at higher skill levels, which thankfully Pyro kinda does.
I like the fact that there are only 9 classes. Having 4-5 characters that all do the same thing slightly differently is a chore to keep track of. Simply having the class capable of changing loadouts to match the style/approach the player desires is better than trying to introduce a whole new character to solve this problem, and even better is having the ability to change these loadouts anytime you please, instead of waiting until your character dies or until the game ends.
@@the_Red_Star Not saying I disagree, but there's a pretty big difference between OG Pyro and current TF2 Pyro, namely airblasting and class loadouts. Still, I don't think the Pyro should ever be removed or anything, because I do not see Team Fortress as a competitive game, even though it can be played that way.
@@yoloRetardSwag gee I wonder why did you call them shit, oh wait you got salty cuz you don't have enough braincells to counter a phlog with BB or Vacc
In TF2 it is meticulously done that if you are a good enough player, you can carry your team to victory. Be you a sticky-spamming demoman, a competitive soldier, a professional medic surrounded by first time players or even a gibus spy with dead ringer/cloak&dagger on the last stage of goldrush, pushing the cart to victory, for the enemy team was too busy spawncamping your team. This is why TF2 works so well.
uuuh no i completely disagree. if you systematically carry the game alone that's cause the opposition is simply incompetent. even the best players by themselves are easily shutted down with the right cheesy strats, which are plentiful and don't require any elaborate coordination. the fact übers are necessary to make pushes through chokepoints bearable just shows that even in chaotic pubs (which is like the most basic tf2 gameplay ever) you won't do much alone and get steamrolled if your teammates don't keep up. where i get you tho is that the game's skill-based aspect is indeed spot-on enough to be called great.
@@MetalX34 There are games I've played where I've been good enough to slow down the enemy team rolling us after joining the server quite late. Once the team had a bit more breathing space, the rest of the players were better able to play their part and we'd end up reversing the momentum against a team that maybe got a bit complacent. So yeah, you do still need at least a handful of players in your team playing their part to pull off a win, but it's also true that a player can singlehandedly change the game.
@@sahanavic7841 making a decisive play at a moment or another isn't the same as carrying tho. you created an opportunity and your teammates took it, then they played their parts. in other words, you weren't alone except at the very start. point being that if tf2 excels as a skill-based game on an individual scale, we shouldn't blow things out of proportions. a lot of interactions in this game are skewed even in the context of a teamfight, so imagine if you gotta do it by yourself. you can make epic and influential plays but hell from my experience that's not particularly inherent to tf2 in the slightest.
a good enough player can't always carry a team all the way to victory. BUT a good enough player always gets to have fun and kill shit, whether he wins or loses. and that's good enough.
one thing i love about tf2 is the pure chaos that comes with it. big matches with player that know and don't know what is going on. Level skill can be anywhere and you can pull off mamy different things in many maps. Micspammers here, people who are chatting there, friendlies the other side and tryhards the opposite way. Bunch of random crits or pumpkins anywhere. the ability to fly with some class and do crazy shit or other amazing things that doesn't necessarily mean you have to fly like trickstabbing, airshots, hitting as pyro the degreaser detonator axe combo, blowing 3 people up with the caber, stunning an enemy the otherside of the map with the sandman and killing him with the flying guillotine (good times), remember the taunt kills compilation that some dudes liked to upload? jumping around and creating teleporters in strange places. also some bugs and glitches even if game breaking were fun in a way. so this is trying to explain the pure chaos i meant and i find myself comfortable usually in trade servers messing around with no objective, halloween maps and especially mann power maps with grapples and power ups enhance that chaos pretty well.
the "singleplayer-multiplayer" concept explains why as an introvert I really enjoy playing TF2 and think to myself that I'm contributing a lot to the team even if I'm not talking with them
One thing I liked about TF2’s design was that, while teamwork was a big focus, they didn’t focus on it *way* too much Most classes work well on their own, and does a nice job of fighting solo, so if a few of your teammates suck, it doesn’t ruin the entire team, but if there was too much of a focus on teamwork, those few people who don’t know what the hell to do will screw the whole team over because they won’t do their job right But at the same time, teamwork can add this extra layer of strength to the team that could give you an advantage over an uncoordinated team It struck this perfect balance, where you don’t *require* teamwork, so there’s no over reliance on other people, but it’s still better than going full-on Rambo on the entire team, so there’s this big level of depth in the combat Instead of jumping in solo like a one-man army, get the scouts, soldiers, pyros and demos to attack, get the heavies to draw their fire, get the spies and snipers to kill important targets, and get the engineers and medics to really reinforce the entire siege That’s something that I thought made the game special
5:01 That heavy's playing call of duty in tf2, that spy's playing MGS in tf2, that medic's playing WoW in tf2, you're playing bloons tower defense in tf2, and it all comes together to make the real TF2 experience
Scout, Sniper, Soldier, Demo, Medic: “Teamwork, except not” Heavy: “Cool movie, put it in the game” Pyro: “Lag bad, aim hard” Spy: “It’s not a bug, it’s a feature” Engie: “What if we made this FPS game more appealing to fans of Bloons Tower Defense?”
I thought this was going be a shitpost of high caliber from that thumbnail and title, but in the end, it was a really informational video with lots of cool graphics. Look at those 3D models on the screen, moving around so smoothly, so nice!
6:33 I distinctly remember Plants vs Zombies: Garden Warfare 1 & 2 had exactly that problem regarding their version of the teleporter. In the gamemode Gardens and Graveyards/Turf Takeover (which is essentially Garden Warfare's version of attack/defend with varying numbers of points and special objectives as the end like a payload) there would be a teleporter that spawned in one of a number of preset locations, and it would be up to a player on the attacking team to build it so their team could spawn really close to the point. Problem was, this was restricted to a single class (The Engineer in GW1 and also the Rose in GW2), so players would switch to that class, build the teleporter and switch back. It was especially bad in GW2 because the Engineer was borderline unplayable in that game and the Rose was cancer (GW2 did not live up at all to GW1). Luckily they fixed that in the third game, Battle for Neighbourville, which got rid of the teleporter system and gave reworks to a bunch of classes (mostly the GW2 classes, all of whom had some sort of major design flaw as compared to the GW1 classes).
@Jack Hudner While I have my own opinions on the latest entry, I’m glad someone out here is giving the GW series some of the attention it deserves. While I partly agree on the teleporter being a case of “someone else will do it,” building the teleporter as Engineer would give you a fair amount of coins which could accumulate into a high amount if the game continued for a long time. The addition of the teleporter seemed to solve two issues: the painful distance between the attacker’s spawnpoint and giving attention to the flank routes. The high-priority teleporter would draw out defenders to destroy it and slow the attacker’s advance, which gave flanking a purpose and concentrated battles into areas that weren’t just the capture zones. The back and forth dynamic of building and rebuilding teleporters could distract the defenders from the actual objective, allowing the attackers to capture it while they’re away. But still, the teleporter wasn’t a perfect solution, as it left the Engineer as a class with a job and no real reward. He could make a difference if someone chose him (just like Medic), but there was little incentive for it when compared to the much more attractive combat classes.
PvZ GW1 also solved medic's problem: Who will heal? Who will rez? Everyone could heal to half of hp and everyone could rez everyone although Sunflower/Scientist did it faster and better
Replying to a 2 years old comment is bussin. Teleportres in those games are not really that important, they just give you a slight boost at capturing the point. Engineer is honeslty a strong class on its own, and because of his mobility abilities it doesnt feel like a chour that much. Rose was nerfed
That's actually amazing my favourite classes are engineer and pyro. I'm not really good at aiming and when I played TF2 as a kid my internet was very poor or I had fps lag, so those 2 classes became my go-to pretty cool to know that a player like me was the intention behind those classes
I think Overwatch failed to look at these elements when they took some inspirations from TF2. Overwatch is so heavily team-based, that it's honestly ridiculous. Not only does the team need to communicate, and be in harmony with each other, but each player on the team has to act as their role (as in healers stay purely healing), and know their role (knowing how to defend as a take). The team also has to have a shot caller, because otherwise you just have a silent team who doesn't know a character is behind them wiping the team, or doesn't know their overstepping past the payload. It's also interesting to see that every class in TF2 is practically a DPS, with the exceptions of maybe Heavy (because he seems to be more of a tank) and of course Medic. And then when you look at Overwatch, there's far less players playing both Support and Tank because they aren't designed to be as fun, but a chore that needs to help the team.
This is so true, this is the reason why toxicity grew in overwatch, its not because of the bad people who came and play overwatch, its how teamwork is so emphasized in the game
The last leg of the video about why the designed the medic the way they did gave me a whole lot more appreciation for older, chokeir maps like dustbowl. This might be a tad extreme, but I believe that 90% of the problems people have with most of the maps in the game actually stem from the players, and not the map design. Sure, there are a bunch of particular design elements that seem to repeatedly cause problems, but maybe, just maybe, players would enjoy the maps more overall if they actually worked as a team.
Welp, chokepoints encourage the defending team to all go demo/soldier and spam, or engie and camp, while the defending team can go full tryhard and cooperate with 3 medics, the sheer amount of knockback will ruin their efforts. So only way it's "the fault of the player" is because the RED team doesn't suicide by all going spy/battle medic lol
Regardless of what Robin Walker said, I think they still tried to emphasize teamwork with the original maps. Look at the original 2fort, there are ZERO healthkits or ammo packs in the bases, only in the spawn rooms. This encourages people to go Medic or Engineer and help out their team as they're trying to storm the enemy fort. Just going in there as Soldier only gets you so far, because you'll run out of HP and ammo pretty quickly. And the same goes for maps like Dustbowl, which is pretty choke-y. Then again, those maps were designed around grenades, and Sentry nests are much easier to take out with a well-timed grenade than having to get a Medic with Übercharge.
@@GermanPeter I wrote a whole essay bashing Valve's game design in this comment originally, but... Whatever, point is, grenades are good, I wish they would bring them back, and I agree with your assessment.
99% of players don't work as a team, and don't find it fun. it's a lot of work and it doesn't guarantee payoff unless all your teammates also work with _you_. it was said in the video and we all know it. that's why team reliant games are always said to have toxic fanbases, like league and overwatch.
I agree with the “they want someone else to do it” just like overwatch everyone wants and needs tanks but when given the option like in no limits you have a team of 6 dps
"We fixed the need for teamwork by making a bunch of different classes that fill certain rolls and can't fulfill other rolls, needing teamwork" Fuckin brilliant
One of the most menacing things to happen in TF2 is a band of 3 soldiers all with different banners charging right at you, one with a katana, one with the black box, and the other with a shotgun for their corresponding banner
They had a good idea initially, but it doesn't always turn out all that well in the end. The problem is when people go Spy or Sniper despite there already being 2 of them in the team, and then they just mess around and do whatever they want, without caring for what the team actually needs. Plus, people feeling compelled to play let's say Medic or Engineer because the team would be instantly losing otherwise is still a thing. It's why I ended up being resentful towards Medic after a while, because while I wanted to play Scout or Heavy, I realized that if no one went Medic, the round would be over in a minute. Thus, I forced myself to go Medic because I knew I could change the tide of battle, in hopes of being able to play a different class after things calmed down. They tried making Medic more fun with the Medigun, but the problem is that healers just aren't fun to most people. They want to kill and do damage, since that's more exciting. I think Overwatch tried to solve this issue much better, since there's more healers that fight in battle and heal passively, not actively. They still don't get picked as often because guy with grenade launcher or guy with akimbo shotguns is still cooler, but it makes healing and supporting more engaging for most people. Bottom line, you really do still need teamwork to play the game effectively, and everyone messing about and doing their thing only brings you so far. Eventually you'll hit a roadblock (such as a big Sentry nest), and then people realize that maybe trying to trickstab the enemy Pyro for the 15th time in a row doesn't really do anything. It's why I like 5CP maps so much, because uneven teams eventually even themselves out once one of the teams puts up this roadblock. The steamrolling team can't steamroll anymore, and the previously losing team can then reorganize themselves and push back. And since this goes on for so long, eventually you'll have mostly people that really want to win in both teams, and they'll try their absolute hardest. I find that way more fun than people just doing their thing and perhaps stumbling across the cart at some point. Though, the initial idea for the game to work like that also explains why CTF was such a big part. You really only need 1-2 guys to cap the flag or bring it over to the control point. Teamwork will definitely still help you, but not everyone has to go after the objective at the same time. Even just distracting the enemy team so the Scout can sneak past with the flag is enough. But for TF2, they put a much higher emphasis on other game modes like the cart or control points, with mixed results.
one thing i love about tf2 is the pure chaos that comes with it. big matches with player that know and don't know what is going on. Level skill can be anywhere and you can pull off mamy different things in many maps. Micspammers here, people who are chatting there, friendlies the other side and tryhards the opposite way. Bunch of random crits or pumpkins anywhere. the ability to fly with some class and do crazy shit or other amazing things that doesn't necessarily mean you have to fly like trickstabbing, airshots, hitting as pyro the degreaser detonator axe combo, blowing 3 people up with the caber, stunning an enemy the otherside of the map with the sandman and killing him with the flying guillotine (good times), remember the taunt kills compilation that some dudes liked to upload? jumping around and creating teleporters in strange places. also some bugs and glitches even if game breaking were fun in a way. so this is trying to explain the pure chaos i meant and i find myself comfortable usually in trade servers messing around with no objective, halloween maps and especially mann power maps with grapples and power ups enhance that chaos pretty well.
I personally haven’t had the same experience with 5Cp maps. Most of the time one team would steamroll the other to the final point and rather instantly cap or fight for a few excruciating minutes more. 5CP’s constantly moving back and forth nature also tends to favor some classes over the other, such as Scouts and Soldiers over Heavies or Engineers. I know that Heavies and Engineers generally have a more limited role, but other game modes seem to let them be a lot more useful.
They basically made medic op so people would want to play as him. It does get pretty annoying when I want to play a different class but half the games I have to play medic because he just gives your team a huge advantage over your enemy team.
normal online fighting game teams: crap we have a f2p. WHAT ARE YOU DOING GO THIS WAY! tf2: awww look at the little f2p he's making a sentry on his own!
These days its allways: "We want to make THE MOST IMMERSIVE, GROUNDBREAKING, INNOVATIVE, REWARDING, FORWARD THINKING, PLAYERFOCUSED, COMMUNIYT DRIVEN, BOOTS ON THE GROUND GAMING EXPERIENCE " Back in those games:"You how about we recreate that cool character from the movies? Lets do it"
So basically, they made the classes able to survive individually so that you don't need to rely on bad teammates to win? You can be succesful on your own.
It was nice seeing the old team fortress models again. I remember servers running 2fort3 and 2fort4, and not trusting 2fort5 since 'that doesnt exist yet', good times.
@@ultr4nima Oof, it was a long time ago, I think the ramp room changed a bit, and the water route got a tunnel straight into the ramp room. I don't remember 5 much, we treated it as unofficial at the time anyway. Not long after we found an extreme/ultimate mod for TF that added all sorts of mad stuff, like throwable sentries and merv-mervs that just kept exploding :P
@@Davesoft That sounds insanely interesting, I wish documentation regarding QWTF was more prevalent 'cause at the moment we only have basic information, old forgotten videos & word of mouth. Everytime I hear anything about Quake TF chances are I'll learn something completely new about it
They did a good job on balancing this game tbh and Robin Walker was pretty much on point with what he said about the classes. When I was feeling a bit lazy but still want to contribute to the team? I choose Engineer. I want to pick off important classes such as medic, highly skilled player or a stubborn engineer spot? I chose sniper. I wanna be sneaky and one hit kill classes using some intelligent game play? I use spy. I have played TF2 for more than 8 years and I still find myself coming back to this game every now and then. It's a great game and always will. I just wish they will spend more time developing this game further because it has so much potential.
With that, and a little bit of fairy dust, you can get a player to endure 10+ years of being queued on the team you just know will lose, for having 2 less medics and 5 more spies than the enemy team, so that they still occasionally win thanks to Pub Push Power
Interesting how they implemented the Medic without considering how he should feel good to play as a single player game like the other classes. He and the Heavy have become the "I hope somebody else picks X" classes like the beta Demoman was. The Medic problem was only solved by making him so overpowered that it doesn't feel like a drag to play him.
6:12 man this is EXACTLY what happened with the Engineer in Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, nobody ever wants to build mission objectives and plant dynamites, and no team cooperation means that even if you were willing to you couldn't just go and place the dynamite without getting killed and/or instantly defused by an enemy Engineer.
I don’t know if the concensus in this comment section is that this train of thought is dumb, but I personally think its brilliant. There is no artificial teamwork, the whole dimension of teamwork is a skill that has to be learned, and it does help tremendously despite there being little built in class synergy. Its like Csgo or chess, where you are given a set of rules and have to figure the game out from scratch.
love how the comments make fun of the pyro being made for players with bad connections but no one mentions that the engineer was made for players with bad aim i think there might be a slight bias against the pyro
That's why I liked TF2, there are opportunities for some sick solo plays but also you can't just carry your team if the opponents are at least somewhat competent. Haven't found a game like that since, Overwatch and Paladins feel sluggish, if your team is bad you just get completely rolled over.
One unique thing in tf2 is how you can become friends with enemies. A recent example, i noticed an enemy sniper behind our lines. With unusual hat. He clicked on my head a few times, i was in optimal range to gib him but...i couldn't. I followed him while accusing him of being a spy. When he noticed me we did a few crouches to signal peace and went on my way. You WILL NEVER EXPERIENCE THAT IN ANY OTHER TEAM BASED MULTIPLAYER. I Tried. The unwritten rule is just not present in those game's culture.
@@akyer8085 How can random crits break stalemates, though? They're random, which means you can't control when they decimate a player. It could easily be as probable for a random crits to kill a chunk of players at the right time or simply do nothing as it was shot and misses.
Since you brought up the old Demolition Man, I'd like to mention that one other game has done nearly the same thing - Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory has an Engineer class, which can plant dynamite to destroy critical structures and is required for many maps. They solved the problem by making him essential in other ways too - only he could build supporting structures, repair vehicles and had a special weapon - rifle grenade launcher.
The spy's butterfly effect goes crazy cuz just because of a bug valve earns a lot more cosmetics-money just because there's 9 classes instead of 8, a bug worth million of dollars
In all honesty this is the reason why TF2 is nigh-impossible to take off as a competitive game. The nature of the game, its design was created to have a good old fun time with little to no pressure do something competitive in nature, its up to the player to do so.
So Scout, Soldier and Demo were designed around differences in one stat, Sniper and Medic were added as already established parts of the fiction, Heavy was an "I saw this in a movie once" (more common in game dev than you'd think) Pyro was deliberately built to be a WM1, Spy was built out of people accidentally playing the game wrong, Medic's Ubercharge was an attempt to stop people hating playing a healer class and Engineer was built for people who wanted to be playing a different game. Half of this sounds like the notes for how D&D designed its classes.
Honestly where Overwatch failed from a design phase, even after all the warnings during the beta of these exact flaws. There is no pick whatever class you want, contribute to a fight, have fun. It's pick a counter class (which you may not even enjoy playing), or else you won't be useful in a fight, and you will lose. Overwatch stresses way to much on winning instead of having fun.
Yes, people always call Overwatch a MOBA, which is obviously wrong, but this is one way in which it is MOBA-like: the need to pick counter classes and have the same immediate goal as your teammates if you want to win. Whereas tf2, if you just have the same ultimate goal as your teammates, that is, win and have fun, and cooperate a little on the immediate goals, everything works well; like the interviewed person, you can look left and right, and realise that you’re playing really well as a team.
This is basically why LoL is hands down the most frustrating game i ever played. You have 5 people, if one them afks you lose, if one of them trolls you lose, if one of them feeds you probably lose, if the enemy has a better jg, all lanes get fed, objectives get taken, you lose, if your enemy has better mid, basically the same, you play adc but team decides they dont want to play tanks or real supports, you get killed non stop and flamed for being useless, its just such a shitshow that its amazing that so many people still play the game
