How to Achieve Peace in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict 

I love Michael Shermer's interviews. He is rare among interviewers, almost never interrupting his guests. Also, he always adds nuggets of wisdom which enriches the blog. Thank you Michael.

Einat Wilf is an excellent speaker and very factual.

As an Arab committed to peace, I have found this conversatiom quite remarkable. Thank you for explaining how antisemitism actually manifests and for indicating a path to peace through transformation rather than force. Respect to you both Michael and Einat.

Einat youre amazing! Unrivaled clarity.

The Jewish people are entitled to self-determination, just like the Armenians, Scots and the Irish.

She's amazing. I can't believe how much I've learned in the space of 100 minutes.

Brilliantly articulated, with the only reservation, that when the focus is on Israel only, one may miss that similar dynamics are already in high gear in the US and Europe. People that were helped and welcomed are already harboring grievances against and rejection of their hosts. I am not as optimistic as Dr. Wilf, I think the problem is far greater, so great that most people just keep their eyes shut.

Thank you from Sweden. Einats view has been my view for decades. My father visited Israel days before the war in 1967 and his and my view was the same as Einats already then. PLO and Hamas has declared where they stand from the beginning and you only do not see it if you do not want to see it. Thenk you for a great interview!

As an Israeli who was brought up on beliving peace between us and the Palestinians Einat expresses so well how I feel. I wanted to belive even when peace groups and meetings from my school didn't work from the Palestinian side, I wanted to belive even after my reletives were injured in 2 terror attacks of Hamas, but after October 7th I got the massage, I started listening to what they say in arabic. She is 100% right.

Excellent conversation with an extremely knowledgeable, intelligent and educated guest who says it like it is.

What a powerhouse Einat is! Thanks for facilitating such an incredible talk, Michael.

I really love that this beautiful speech specifically after 1:17 which Ms Einat wif criticize abrahamic religions system and discussed the way of interpretation is important and it can turn the page completely. As an Iranian atheist on the behalf of vast majority of Iranian people I would say we love Israeli people and would like to start our relationship even better than before 1979. The problem is the radical and terrorist islamist regime in Iran which occupied Iran for more than 44 years and is the enemy of Iranians, Israelis, and many other people in the world. This anti human regime also is an enemy with huge culture and civilization of Iran especially before Islam, namely Persian empire, Zarathustrianism,etc. I wish the people of Iran and Israel would start their relationship soon after the collapse of this anti-human regime. This time has come to Cyrus the Great accords.❤ Long live Iran Long live Israel

Einat Wilf is pretty awesome. Her recent videos about UNRWA are fascinating and very eye opening.

She knows what she is talking about. Too bad she is ignored by the mainstream media.

Fantastic interview, thank you

As always, Einat never misses. So clear and concise it’s amazing.

World treasure. This who Dr Einat is.

In full disclosure, I am an unapologetic American political conservative and Gentile Zionist. I am a vocal advocate for Israel and the Jewish people inside and outside of Israel. I'm embarrassed to admit that before watching this remarkably compelling interview with the stellar Einat Wilf, I had never heard of her! As an avid amateur scholar of the strategic history of the Middle East and a US Naval War College Graduate and retired combat veteran, it is inexplicable that I've just now discovered her. My bad. As far as domestic politics are concerned, she and I could not be much farther apart, but more importantly we are in complete agreement on her views about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, its origins, its modern history, its current status, and potential resolution. On the other hand, we are polar opposites on domestic politics in Israel, and probably by inference, America too. Again, unapologetically, I am a huge fan of Benjamin Netanyahu and his economic and political philosophy. In my view, and clearly not in Einat's, he is the most effective and positively consequential politician and Prime Minister in Israel's history, with the possible exceptions of David Ben Gurion and Golda Meir. I completely agree with Netanyahu's deeply controversial position that Israel's judicial system desperately needs to be reformed for the government to be democratically manageable. The American Founders wisely created our three independent branches of government with a clearly defined system of checks and balances to prevent any one of them from becoming too powerful. You cannot effectively govern when the unelected judicial branch of goverment transforms itself into a second and supreme legislative body as has happened in Israel, regardless of whether that second legislature acts in accordance with one's personal ideological agenda or not. I acknowledge that Einat would vehemently disagree with my position. I am however puzzled by the fact that Einat was able to abandon her acknowledged leftwing position about land for peace and a two state solution, without a concomitant shift in her socialist domestic ideology. Regardless, there is no question that she and I could agree to disagree without being disagreeable on domestic politics while being in total solidarity about the correct course for Israel to follow on the vastly more important question of Israel's self defense and future national security policy. That is an existential necessity! We can argue about politics later after relative peace returns.

This interview should be a must see in the UN. Thank you both.❤️❤️❤️

What a good speaker, you should be doing more press.

thanks for great episode

Praying for the beloved People of ISRAEL continually ❤🎉

Einat Wilf is absolutely brilliant

I admire this woman!!!! so clever, so sharp, so.......wow

Brilliant lady.

can you please recommend Einat to talk to other podcasters, that are your friends with? I think a lot more people need to hear this message

Einat You should run for president

Brilliant! Thank you! So many must hear it more than once to understand the current reality and the tasks at hand to have any impact!

Wow. This is clearly by far the best analysis of the conflict I have come across to date. Tough stuff indeed, but extraordinarily eye-opening and thought-provoking. How long are we as Western countries and democratic societies going to nourish blatantly flawed ideas about the causes of the conflict which cannot stand to scrutiny? How long are we going to indulge false excuses that enchain an entire people in a state of victimhood and non-responsibility? And finally, how long are we going to waste billions of dollars for keeping alive a deeply corrupt and rotten system whose only purpose is the perpetuation of war against Israel? The path that leads to true peace is hard and stony because it involves issues that are beyond the usual sphere of political activity, beyond the realm of negotiations and compromise. But if we put in it all the energy and resources we are currently wasting while cutting off all possible subterfuges, we can eventually succeed. By all means, we should try it.

I like her voice. She is so jewish

Wow! Einat is an Israeli ROCKSTAR! Her historical explanation of the origins of the current anti-Israel movement, the Palestinian problem, and of Antisemitism is the most persuasive one that I've heard to date. In the widespread internet discussions and presentations searching for explanations of the Israeli security failure of October 7th, hers is the most cogent and believable, actually profound, and her experience in military intelligence gives it the imprimatur of authority. I have a relatively minor bone to pick with her. In her explanation of one source of minority American anti-Israel feeling she cites the Corey Bush example of blaming US foreign aid to Israel for the failure of Congress to pass "universal healthcare" legislation. Parenthetically she slipped in her personal view that US failure to have "universal healthcare" was an "abomination". That reveals her personal domestic political orientation as a socialist. Israel has a domestic history of being strongly socialist. Jewish refugees from the USSR, among others, brought with them a bias toward socialist policies in a number of governance realms, not the least of which was big government, including "universal healthcare". It can be argued that the institution of socialism in the history of Israel demonstrably held the country back economically and socially until Benjamin Netanyahu, as Finance Minister in a Likud-led government, introduced sweeping free market economic reforms that turned Israel into a business powerhouse on the world stage, and one of the most affluent per capita societies on earth. Later Einat undercuts her socialist views by linking "Utopianism" to Antisemitism within the current context of global opposition to Israel. Universal healthcare is a significant element of the Utopian ideal. My view is that socialism is in fact "an abomination", and that there are many examples in the world today of countries which have adopted a goverment-run universal healthcare model which has led to an actual failure to deliver quality healthcare to their citizens. I give you the examples of Britain, Canada, Cuba, and a host of others where rationing is rampant, delays in treatment endemic, and the care ultimately delivered being subpar in comparison to more free market medical systems like that in the United States. As I said, in the big scheme of things related to geopolitical events in the Middle East at the moment, this is a small bone to pick within the context of Einat's otherwise brilliant and compelling views. I have immense respect and admiration for this remarkable woman, and I hope that this outstanding interview by Michael Shermer receives the widest possible dissemination.

Einat's book "The War of Return" is essential reading for understanding the pal-Israel issue, fantastic book.

Great conversation. Thank you.

Einat is amazing...love from Israel 🇮🇱

This is one of your best, Michael!

59:54 Norway recognizing Palestine as a State is "Schrödinger's State" ?? Schrödinger's Cat is a famous thought experiment that demonstrates the idea in quantum physics that tiny particles can be in two states at once until they're observed. It asks you to imagine a cat in a box with a mechanism that might kill it. Until you look inside, the cat is both alive and dead at the same time.

Thank you for sharing Einat Wilf with the world Michael Shermer. A riveting, tough & practical exploration of the necessary ideological & cultural transformation needed to achieve true peace. Einat clearly & succinctly explains that what is needed is a complete transformation of Arab, Muslim & Palestinian understanding that Jewish self-determination is compatible with a proud Arab identity. Historically & to this day, Palestinians regard living next to a Jewish state as a mark of shame. Their ethos has been clearly repeated for decades - from water to water means a single Arab state that must replace Israel. The required transformation for peace will entail viewing two states as a mark of honour. As she says, you can’t pay people to change their values, they have to want to go through this transformation, aided by moderate & modern Arab & Muslim countries & people. The data shows that all offers of a two state solution to date have been rejected by the Palestinians. Their public message is consistent, and the West has not yet taken their stated ideology seriously. We’ve been “Westplaining” by saying they don’t really mean what they say.

It feels like the Roman Empire never ended

I've found you the Palestinian who unequivocally and publicly declares not only his agreement with Einat's principles of "constructive specificity" in resolving the key issues that have sustained the Arab claims of "return" but who is also unapologetically alligned with the morality of the Jewish state in its ancestral homeland. He is Mosab Yousef, the son of a cofounder of Hamas. His is the most powerful voice in the world today for Israel's sovereignty and flourishing right where it exists today. I realize that Mosab is just one advocate for reason and truth, but he speaks with the voice of the lion. I'm sure that Einat and Michael are well aware of Mosab and his very courageous and public campaign, but I just thought it important to make it known to Michael's audience.

i wish Einat would read this (i know she’s unlikely to…). But every time i listen to her speak - she’s utterly brilliant. And the interviewer has also done a fine job here as well.

Bravo Mr. Shermer. This is the most important interview of our time.

Interesting perspective.

Einat I adore you. I learn so much. You are genuine and fierce. Thank you, I appreciate your commitment to maintain accuracy and integrity.

I would love to see Eina interviewed by Candace Owens and Kim Iverson, so she could set them straight on the reality of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Weapons behind the teddybear. People will skipp over this. The IDF knows to look in the childrens rooms first

You have proved that you are a Jewish, you have a very big brain. I love you so much.

Here’s example of another cause and affect reversal. The blockade on Gaza was imposed after Hamas was voted into power but we keep hearing the Gazans are resisting because it’s an “open air prison”. SMH

Pray!!! Pray for Peace

Reinterpreting Islam to support Israel (re: Abraham accords ) is reminiscent of the 1962 papal reinterpretation of Christianity to allow conceptualizing a common Judeo Christian tradition. That could take a while ….

👏👏👏

From 1949 until 1967 Jordan occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem while Egypt occupied Gaza. The Egyptian government was a dictatorship. Jordan was a monarchy. Neither Egypt nor Jordan had any intention of leaving the occupied territories. Why didn’t Palestinian “resistance fighters'' attack Jordan and Egypt? Why didn’t anyone recognize a Palestinian State? What about the Palestinian right of national self determination? What about full democratic human rights for Palestinians? Only when Jews occupied East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza in 1967, which they did and will continue to do so because it is necessary for Israel’s survival, did it become an international crisis and Jews became the targets of constant terrorist attacks and international condemnation.

Good talk

I wondering how we can reduce the number of Americans who suffer from the delusion that they have some stake in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and help them return to doing what they know how to do best. Shutting up and watching bad shows on Netflix while they grow wider. Saving such conversations for intelligent, well-informed folks like Michael Shermer and company😄

The name of this channel is called "skeptic." I thought you would talk about aliens, psychic phenomenon, science and science denial and most importantly: "Evidence." So where is the scientific Skepticism?

Investing in the security and well-being of nations like Ukraine and Israel, and extending support to the Iranian people like smart sanctions on Oil exports of Islamic Republic but letting Iranians make money online through services, is crucial because our populations share a common wealth of talents, technologies, and values that foster economic growth, human rights, and fundamental freedoms. This understanding is lost on extremist ideologies like fascism, Marxism, and jihadism, which often rely on zero-sum thinking. For evidence, consider the arguments presented in 'Enlightenment Now' by Steven Pinker. Those who disagree are invited to engage in a constructive debate at Atheist Republic, where we can explore the merits of liberal values and the flaws in authoritarian models. Embracing liberalism allows for mutually beneficial outcomes, whereas extremist ideologies often require someone to lose in order for them to gain.

Excellent intellect multiplied by grace and charisma she should make great president for Israel ore USA

The transformation she is talking about will never happen. It is spiritual !

She’s great

This is the only cogent explanation of the Palestinian Israeli situation that I have ever heard. Everything else I’ve heard sounds like obscurantist bullshit in comparison. Thank you Einat and thank you, Michael Shermer, for giving her the time to lay out her ideas and evidence so thoroughly. Brilliant!

brilliant - should be heard by all - maybe some people would wake up

3:02 Good, so that means we are ready.

I am pessimistic on the reinterpretation of islam. Bin salman may well be an atheist. He does not act muslim. The text is clear

she is wow

It’s quite incredible that it took this “really smart woman“ with tons of college degrees, intifadas in the early 2000s, and the October 7 holocaust, to realize the simplicity that Mayer Kahana understood in the 1970s and 80s and was yelling from the rooftops but no one would listen. And of course, she won’t even dare quote his name even though she’s quoting him the whole time.

Have you listened to Einat Wilf and John Aziz on Robert F Kennedy Jr's Path To Peace audio podcast? Path To Peace - Episode Two: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-p3qNrAItcpw.htmlsi=NE2ass08jkLSjJ0d Episode One included Yossi Klein Halevi and Professor Mohammed Dajani Daoudi: Path To Peace - Episode One: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-HwRUfFxHnoE.html

i love Shermer's work and read many of his books, and my poistion on the current conflict is that whatever happens ot Hammas is a result of that horrific first murder of innocent Israelis, but this came across to me (an atheist) as two Jewish people sayng "we jews have done nothing wrong, ever, ever, ever. You are all against us for no reason at a, blah, blah, blahll Yeah, right."

Jewish Bible is at the base of our western culture not koran.

Quoting Adolf Hitler in an interview, far-right Israeli politician Moshe Feiglin has described Palestinians as “Islamo-Nazis” and called for Gaza to be turned into “Hebrew Gaza.” “We are not guests in our country. It is our country, all of it,” he told Israel’s Channel 12 on Sunday. “However, we figured a way to deal with them (Palestinians) somehow … But they showed that they represent the deepest form of Islamo-Nazism.” Feiglin added, “And like Hitler, may his name be erased, said: ‘I cannot live in this world if there is one Jew left in it’, we could not live in this land if even one such Islamo-Nazi remains in Gaza, and not before we return to Gaza and turn it into Hebrew Gaza.”

I am praying for peace and the right to self determination to the Palestinians. Free Palestine! /Stop the occupation and genocide!

Do you even know what the word Palestine means? If the Palestinians knew what that meant, they wouldn't call themselves that.

Why cant they be taught from young that G-d designated that whole land to his nation Israel. Basically mindset and a paradigm shift.

When do we get to the "how to achieve peace" part of the interview? I'm 50 minutes in...

It is only when we shed our ideologies that humanity becomes united. It is our disparate beliefs and ideologies about self and other that fuels separation, fear, disparagement of others and war. Once we recognize the culprit within ourselves humanity begins to evolve by recognizing the dignity within all human beings and all creation.

The gods show their love for humans through their mercy. The mercy of the gods may be represented by killing humans for a good reason that is in the interest of humans, and humans demonstrate their love for the gods by offering sacrifices to the gods, which include human sacrifices (it is similar to platonic love). It’s a sacred art.

58:00 This!!

Love israel and the israeli people. The lies and the denial is disgusting . Moscow taught hamas well

People can't get in and out freely. And they get taxed.

Everything they had to.know on attacking israel was in their islamic political doctrines including how to deal with the jews. All in the quran,sharia and the sunna

I heard you both and am deeply disappointed in how you, Michael failed to ask challenging questions and allowed this not be a conversation but a diatribe about how violent Palestinian people are. How about bringing Noam Chomsky of I Pappe into a conversation.

Sadly, there will never be peace, the mind set for violence is entrenched into men’s mind , however we should never stop trying to achieve this elusive peace we all want. Not until Messiah returns there will be wars. The only peace is found in acceptance of Yeshua(Jesus) our Messiah.

There are fallacies and misunderstandings! Most of the population of North Africa are not Arabs, nor is a large portion of the population of the Mesopotamia region. They are described as Arabs because of the Arabic language that spread due to the Islamic religion, and basically the Arabic language is a mixture of several languages. In fact, the history of the Jews in the region dates back to before the spread of the Arabic language! Also, Judaism is a religion, not a race (can you understand?!), and those who are described as Arabs because of the Arabic language are the ones who protected the Jews over thousands of years. The Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula and some residents of the Mesopotamian region are brothers of the Jews (Judaism is a religion, not a race), and the Semites include Jews and Arabs (the Semites are a race and have nothing to do with religion!). What is promoted in the media is caused by ignorance and backwardness! The Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip may be more Semitic than those who claim to be Semitic because of their embrace of the Jewish religion!

The Russians also gave the world palestinians in june of 1964

Shermer's critical thinking faculties are absent in many political discussions. Though relatively conservative, he has no problem with Zionism as a social engineering project. Indeed, he's made affirmative action style arguments for Israel, claiming there are a bunch of Muslim countries, so why not a Jewish country. His guest observes there are seven million Jews in the Middle East surrounded by hundreds of millions of Arabs. It's a familiar talking point, so let's think about why it is there is a teeny-tiny ethnostate here. Could it be because of the social engineering and mass-migration patterns that classical liberals generally dislike? Could it be that Arabs had been living in the area for a long, long time, while Jews were scattered across the Middle East and Europe? When they talk about the "right" of a sovereign Jewish state to exist, does Shermer pause to think if governments really do have the right to exist? Or, maybe, just maybe, people have a right to self-determination. When talking about the illegal occupation of the West Bank, does it occur to Shermer that "settlements" are essentially government-subsidized segregated housing?

Wow all that education and this woman is disconnected.

How can her knowledge and understanding of the Israel-Arabs conflict reach the students in Universities across the world?

How about Mustafa Barghouti?

Earbud falls out at 1:16:29

Please try to get a guest like Peter Beinart and have him give his answers to the things you considered to be perfectly answered for you here. I truly want to understand, and this interview seemed too one sided. Even if it is all correct, how can we know when nothing was questioned?

Who did she meet??? Hamza? Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib? Loay Alsharif? (They have been friends quite a long time have they not?)…

Its all so sad

In fact, nothing has changed for thousands of years. Worshiping the gods and offering sacrifices is not a new phenomenon. Humans blessed as slaves. Showing absolute submission and showing loyalty and devotion to the hidden gods through worshiping the sacred gods is a very ancient human legacy (slavery is the gift of the gods to humans). Yes, the gods have shown their mercy and blessings to humans through slavery (enslavement of mankind ).

Thank you for bringing a voice of reason within a sea of insanity.

55:17 This war presents several binaries including: 1.) Either the majority of the Gazans are with Hamas, or Israel is liberating them. There is an abundance of evidence for the former. Not only have Gazans allowed their homes, schools, and hospitals to be militarized, there has been no civil disobedience or armed resistance against H. Even today, when there is nothing stopping the civilians from turning on Hamas, or at least participating in subterfuge, we don’t see it. 2.) Either this type of warfare - whereby you invade another country and then hide among your civilians to avoid retaliation - becomes normalized and ubiquitous, or we make it very clear this behavior is a dead end. Who wants to live in a world where this becomes how wars are fought? 3.) Palestinians are either going to keep starting and losing wars in the pursuit of Israel’s annihilation, or they’re going to accept and live. The choice is theirs. We can help them construct a national identity centered around something other than the delusion of “return,” but ultimately they are the agents of their future.

True, historically, under Islam Jews are the protected class, pay jizya and not to have political influence other than being ministers or physician to Sultans and not to be at the forefront of war either offensive or defensive. In the wake of WW2 with the background of Nationalism globally, many nation emerged as colonial power winding down, some hurriedly, leaving power vacuum which get filled up by the most organised and most powerful. Zionism organised nationalistic Jews despite rejection from traditional Jews who accept diaspora as God chosen path. Palestinian movement is a counter nationalistic movement, which till now still relevant and becoming more so with global support beyond Islamic sphere. Islamic sphere seems to be sitting on the sidelines even becoming defensive allies with many neighboring Arab countries having defensive pacts coordinated by US. However, such pact is not popular, and most Islamic sphere are not yet fully triggered and in my view, the main trigger is if Al Quds is taken over by those who want to build a temple on it's ruins. Let's hope people with sensibility will opt for peaceful solution by way of UN,ICC and ICJ solutions.

Never forget the last one! the people of the holy gods came back riding the back of their bull , they prepare for Armageddon !

It just doesn't make sense for anyone to believe Israel or the Jews as a people are going away. The Palestinians need to take this into account. Also, it should be possible to not like everything the Israeli government has done, but still believe Israel has a right to exist as a country. Heck, I certainly don't like everything the US government has ever done!

I cant find the quote that Cory Bush is supposed to have said about universal health care. I can find a criticism of sending funds to a wealthy foreign nation while services in the usa are floundering. These are completely different

We hear much about rightly fighting white supremacist views, but How to extirpate Islamic supremacist views from not only the religion but from centuries of normalized reality in Arab culture and extending throughout the former Turkish Empire?

The important question is how they were able to carry all these hatreds and grudges for thousands of years?! nations disappeared for several reasons during that period! How were they able to carry all these grudges and hatred from one generation to another over thousands of years?! It is religion, no doubt about it (the people of the holy gods came back riding the back of their bull , they prepare for Armageddon ) !

You were citizen of Israel thousands of years ago. But Palestinians are not!!! Interesting