Im not even a big Heartstopper fan, but Alice Oseman wrote the scripts for the tv show, so it was her decision to make the Heartsopper universe more expansive and give more LGBTQIA representation. She wrote the web comic in 2016 when she was in her early 20s so it makes sense that she has grown as a writer and has improved her storytelling.
I feel that the whole soft and feminine boy stereotype can actually be quite harmful. That was a pretty big source of pain for my best friend. He was gay, black, and not skinny or feminine, and finding a relationship where he wasn't expected to be, for a lack of a better term, the dominant and assertive partner, was difficult. It contributed to a lot of body issues and his eventual passing 😕
Dear 'Just Call Me Teacup', I hope that your friend that you are talking about can find the joy, the cheer, the bliss, the community, the happiness, and the good love, so that he can heal and grow into something new and for the better. 🍁🍃🌱🌿🥀🌺💐💐🌺🥀🌿🌱🍃🍁
So many people fetishised Nick and Charlie from Heartstopper. If I remember correctly, there were people complaining about Charlie's actor not being "attractive enough" back when the show was coming out. Like you're not even hiding it at that point. People also just started babying them cause they are an mlm couple. People on tiktok were getting so shocked at the fact that one of the novellas referenced them having sex and acting like it wasn't a normal things for teenagers. tbh Heartstopper fans are either completely chill or just straight fetishisers
Joe Locke & Kit Connor (Heartstopper's Charlie & Nick) actually mentioned they got a "backhanded compliment" about their attractiveness. Someone tweeted that they were so glad that Nick & Charlie were cast with "unconventionally attractive boys." It was quite funny. lol
Yeah, but lets not blame the author for the way people have interpreted her story. I disagreed with cindys comparison of the heartstopper comics to yaoi stereotypes and fetishization. To me at least as a trans bi dude, it felt pretty neat to have two complicated characters not JUST defined by their percieved masc or femininity. “Fetishization” came from the audience, not the source material.
I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape when a booktuber doesn't like a book they loved. Lately I've noticed that a lot of the people I watch are very deliberately softening their critical opinions, and its sad to see people walking on eggshells because they didn't like a certain book. Maybe some viewers are letting parasocial feelings get out of hand, or their personal identity is tied into liking that book? Idk but they need to chill out.
i think ppl tie a lot of their personal identities into books so readers tend to get more sensitive lol i see less of these sensitivities with other forms of media like tv shows and movies
I read a comment somewhere about the Heartstopper graphic novels feeling more like a limited storyboard for the show, and I couldn't agree more. I feel like it served as a great framework, but the story didn't feel fully realized and fleshed-out until it was put to screen (with the input of actual LGBT actors into the characters' speaking patterns, mannerisms, etc.) Alice did a great job with the screenplay, of course, but it definitely felt like they used the opportunity to make Heartstopper what they TRULY envisioned while writing the graphic novel...leaving the graphic novel itself feeling a bit empty as a result.
I think of you keep in mind that it started as a webcomic that developed over time it makes sense that the other characters were added later on because heartstopper developed a lot over time and I'm glad that she show shows everything it is now (even though obviously there's still plot left to cover in future seasons) and even more it's amazing
I completely disagree - the novels were warm, cozy, comfort read. The show was boring and it even added useless drama to make it more watchable, and if it wasn't queer, no one would care about Heartstopper
She's not wrong on media stereotyping gay couples, one as soft and feminine and the other as masculine and buff, I mean look at the Tian Guan Ci Fu manhua. Hua Cheng's appearances in the novel and manhua are so different and the artist just stereotyped Hualian😭
I think it's definitely to allow women to project onto the more "feminine" man in the relationship. there's a lot that goes into why women ship (or fetishize) gay ships, like sexism (lack of development in female characters, and subsequently heterosexual ships), exploration of sexuality (figuring out their gender), etc etc. Idk it's interesting to look at in a kind of "this is really strange and kinda sad" typa way
@@rice3844 nah not everyone is "fetishizing", women can look for the things you listed in BLs without necessarily fetishizing. You don't sound as supportive as you think you are, as a matter of fact you sound sexist (From a gay guy. So yeah if you're an adult woman who's able to separate fiction from reality and loves BL... go on queen)
@@disasterwriter3241 I don't think women are always fetishizing! It'd be a blanket statement to say that. Like I said, there are lots of reasons why mlm stories/ships get so much attention, and it's interesting to look at because of the many factors that go into it
I also loved how Nora (Main character in Book Lovers) is very feminine. I think we get too many stories about career driven women that shun their femininity - of course masculine and androgenous career women are badass, but I feel like they make up a majority of the trope. Its great to see how Nora loves skin care and traditionally "feminine" things while still being a successful business woman. Edit: I...worded this poorly. My original point I was intending to make was that I personally don't see many feminine women in media that are never teased or mocked for liking skincare/makeup/etc. This does not mean that feminine women are not represented in media (a lot of tomboys in early 2000's movies, and even today, are usually put in a "makeover" situation which suggests that being feminine "fixes them"). I think growing up in a generation where being "not like other girls" was a goal for most girls my age, it was refreshing to see Nora be so conventionally feminine and not be a mean girl/catty/ the butt of the joke. We should get more representation of masculine leaning women as well, especially in the romance genre please and thank you!
Im sorry… but WHERE? Where are these so called masculine and career driven women that everyone is always talking about? “They make up the majority of the trope” SO WHERE ARE THEY? Where’s the positive representation for butch, masculine and androgynous women? I dont see it. All i see is feminine women being praised and ppl always commenting how that is such a win bc there’s too much focus on masculine women… i wish i lived in your fantasy world where masc women are portrayed in a positive light by the media but alas im stuck here. Give me some recs from your world where masculine women are the protagonists or something.
@@lunnaris27 I think the original post was meaning more of how the typical "girly" characters are seen as absent minded or as the mean girl. Example in media would be Sharpay Evans. At least when dystopian novels were big, the girls who were more "tomboy" and "not like other girls" were the main protaganists. I think of Katniss Everdeen. I see your point of women who actually embody masc traits are not represented much. Even the "tomboy" female characters are portrayed as beautiful feminine looking women. The only thing that makes them masc is some of their personality traits. Basically, I think I see what you and OP mean, but please correct me if I'm misunderstanding!
@Linds Yes, that was the meaning of my post! I absolutely agree that more butch, masculine and androgenous women need more representation in media. In my eyes, I see more feminine women being seen as "toxic" or "airheaded" in media, so much so that we don't really see a lot of them in positions of power, even in the world of fiction. It was cool to see this turned on its head in Book Lovers. I understand that I wasn't that clear in my original comment and I should have clarified.
@@kianaalagha3988 What characters are you thinking of specifically? Because I feel like even though those characters act like they are not into makeup and "one of the guys", they are almost always still preventing feminine and fitting into beauty standards. ie Sandra Bullock in Miss Congeniality. There's no lack of "feminine" representation in any media of any kind. Even these women who you are describing are still feminine. I think you chose the wrong words because an over abundance of butch/masculine female characters is non existent. Women shunning "girly girls" but still presenting feminine are not "androgenous". Also, there are tons of female characters that participate in things like makeup and hair etc who are portrayed in a positive light. It's really not groundbreaking at all to have female characters celebrate femininity. People have been trying to turn make-up and skin care into some kind of feminist statement when it's impossible for make-up and trying to fit into beauty standards to be "feminist"
As a gay man, thank you. I also felt oddly portrayed in the graphic novel, and I’m especially tired of not being allowed to dislike it without being berated by fellow queers. You also nailed it on the head, it’s decision to move into being an overall queer show vs gay romance saved it a bit. I really need my fellow queers to show up and support shows made and written by gay men as much as they show up for white women mlm’s.
I think it is kinda strange how we are willing to notice when men in mlm relationships are stereotypised as feminine and masculine for each, yet when it happens to women, it seems only welcome and expected to see one of them as butch and other as femme even if they are not that feminine/masculine. Never seen people call women butch and femme when it's a two more masculine women together or two more feminine women together. Maybe it's just me though
That is true. I never really see people talk about how it's bad there is a more stereotypical feminine girlfriend and a more masculine girlfriend. But I see it so much with male relationships.
Agreed. I've read about lesbians that were supposed to be butches that were just your regular woman in a business suit/woman that prefers wearing jeans and a T-shirt, while also being feminine in almost all other ways. It's become a trend in sapphic books to have a woman that's more low-maintainance because she prefers simply putting on a pair of jeans be labelled as butch and be presented as dating a woman that is considered femme because she wears skirts and dresses. However, there aren't a lot of genuinely butch women in sapphic books.
It’s because femme/femme is the straight projected ideal for wlw relationships and is seen a lot in sapphic works made by men for men, NSFW or not, which is the majority of what’s in the mainstream media. Butch/femme, as far as I’ve seen, comes from mostly OV creators. It’s like the opposite of what happens to mlm.
TW: ED. Body image issues. Anxiety. So I know Cindy is only like, two volumes in and she hasn't gotten to that part. But Charlie saying he's skinny and weak is because he has eating disorders and body image issues. It gets pretty heavy later in the comic and it's revealed slowly that Charlie has these issues. Now, I think that's the reason Charlie says that, not because Alice wanted Charlie to be feminine or uwu. Knowing the character, I kind of feel iffy about that particular point.
Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think Charlie suffered from any body image issues? I could have just forgotten, but from what I remember his ed was due to his ocd and need of control, nothing about his body image
@@icarus4172 that is incorrect, in fact, in the current volume of Heartstopper, Charlie has issues with getting more intimate with Nick because of body image issues.
@@icarus4172 you're half right i think. i felt it was the other way around - he doesn't like his body because of how his ed has affected it. he both stares dissapointedly at his reflection and expresses discomfort with undressing several times :/ side note: i cought several hints at an anxiety-/control-motivated ed in the early arcs, both the comics and the show, but someone without personal experience on the matter could easily miss them
I've been thinking about your heartstopper commentary for a bit and I had another thought: MLM books or ships in general tend to get so much more popular than WLW books / ships and there's just more representation in general and while I think all the MLM representation totally should exist I wish we'd see the same amount of love for WLW couples because they're often underrepresented and it's a shame. I can still get something out of male characters figuring out their sexuality but I just want MORE SAPPHIC CHARACTERS PLEASE. if anyone wants to recommend sapphic romance books that will melt my heart please do
Here’s the added thing about MLM books no one addresses. You’ll mostly find mlm romances written by white women, and we need to remember these are job opportunities too. So when we say we’re ready to move on from gay romance into other forms of rep, the market was mostly dominated by cis het women. Support your gay men authors too, especially since you won’t see many of their stuff in bookstores, or as much as their white cis het counterparts.
The amount of elation I’m currently experiencing because Emily Henry was your fav is immeasurable because she’s one of my favorite authors right now and I crave your book approval
Omg Cindy. Your whole opinion about Heartstopper comic says that you HAVE TO read Loveless, also by Alice Osman. She’s aroace herself, so it’s not like writing heartstopper.
Gay romance written by straight authors is more popular than books written by actual gay men because it caters to stereotype people already have rather than having them confronting actual queer people and how we are, well, people. With all the complexities and rough edges it entails. That's where the soft boi gay comes from. Because it must be soft, and cute, and most importantly basically harmless to compensate the fact that he is gay, because being a gay man is still seen as something bad and scary so they have to compensate it (including making their love something soft and ethereal because it must be platonic so that the audience won't confront the fact gay people get physical too). Not to mention how they have to make it so that one is the "man" and the other the "woman" in the relationship, because it's queer for marketing but it can't be actually queer.
@@lettytorres5449 not much recs, I'm not much into booktube and similar channels. I have some ownvoices books, though I tend to look more for trans authors.
@@ccckmp don't know enough about loveless to talk, but being an asexual women doesn't mean she can't contribute to stereotypes about gay men. Actually the fetishization of gay man and the soft boi stereotype very often comes from women, and it's something that it's not discussed enough. The fact that she is asexual isn't too relevant since she is writing other queer people and so risks playing into their stereotypes (as she ends up doing).
Super agree on the Heartstopper books but would really recommend Loveless by the same author which is actually focused on her own experience of aromanticism and asexuality, with the main side romance being wlw. I found it a lot more authentic and less saccharine (although still very YA), but I guess it's worth noting she had a lot more experience by then and Heartstopper began as a fun passion project webcomic that I think she started when she was still a teenager, so never intended to be the same level of depth and polish
Cindy is committed to authenticity. Trying to cook a meal and creating a bland concoction that you can't really put into words is peak whiteness. Thank you Cindy. This is the representation we deserve.
@@crazysmall.artist no. People are just quick to be hateful. It’s a human thing. It’s an active choice. No good comes from it. Everyone, however they are born, is ok.
I actually love what you said about Heartstopper. I reread them last month and it kinda fell flat and I think that's why. In the show we get more storyline and more diversity with the girls added. I also love that in the show we see Nick go on a Bi journey where as in the graphic novel we saw a tiny bit of his gay crisis, but him discovering that he's bi just seemed to be Charlie mentioning that he could be and then bam crisis solved. I love the later graphic novels and what they brought for representation. I can't wait to see how the show adapts them (which is not something I normally say)
I didn’t know that Nick going on a bi journey was a show only thing. It was my favorite part of the show, and as a bisexual person, this is the only time I’ve felt represented by a bisexual character in any kind of media. It sounds dramatic, but I don’t think it’s that strange, considering that most bisexual characters are either promiscuous and unfaithful (if they’re in a relationship) or clearly only bisexual for the sake of the plot.
yes sometimes the storylines may look too easy to resolve, but i believe that if it was a normal novel, there will be more details, but as a graphic novel, its challenging to put all the ideas you have with a few words and drawings.
Your thoughts about heartstopper are exactly mine but for both the og source and the netflix show. Either way im glad for people that really loved it and felt like they got what they needed which is pretty cool. I have to say though, that I still wish non western media with more variety in representing lgbt were as popular, that what hits big isnt always about two white boys, and that people that love heartstopper respect other lgbt media that isnt western. Btw youre always so funny I love watching ur vids while cooking as well!
@@withcindy im in an asian country and my gay friends and i were talking about whether or not we were going to watch the heartstopper series. i said to my friend "it's about white british boys 😭" and she said "yeah thats a big reason i havent started" LMAO
i think Cindy gives really thought out reviews of the books she reads, even when she doesnt like them very much, she's good at separating real problems from things that just didnt land with her, and always acknowledges that she's not the authority on whether the book is good, just how she felt about it. I would still give most of the books Cindy has reviewed a chance if they were genres i liked. i think authors are just so attached to their work, it's hard for them to hear someone give an in depth critic that is either simply unenthusiastic or even negative because they put a lot of time into writing that book, but that's not Cindy's fault, so they are allowed to feel sad hut they arent allowed to take it out on other people.
I actually 100 percent agree, as a gay man I definitely didn't connect as much to the Heartstopper graphical novel than I did with the Netflix series. Honestly, I can almost always always tell when a book about gay men is written by women. Usually the characters are conventionally attractive to women, usually thin, doe eyes, demure, soft. It's not that those things are inherently bad, but damn when am I gonna get my romance series between two gay college bears?!
If a community tells you that the representation is not valid or it’s wrong, people should listen to their voices rather then argue. I study queer literature and queer theory for my degree and I absolutely hate how people who the representation is not for fetishize it. I’ve had 3 women come up to me and say “hey you’re gay, what gay smut do you like” because where I live the queer population is so small and no one has boundaries. What’s worse is that these are teens who are like “I’m an ally, I can ask this shit” when no you cannot. I was floored at the audacity. But then again, being trans, people asked me where I am regarding transitioning and I’m like “do you just have no boundaries or shame? I don’t ask if you are getting a boob job, leave me and my chest be”
sorry to burst your bubble but this "representation" that you're referring is, a lot of times, not actually meant to represent you. y'all get mad at women for reading and liking things that are aimed at them lol. the gatekeeping and misoginy is not cute
@@user-we6ks6pw5j i think critiques for this are valid and dismissing them as "misogyny" isn't that simple. this isn't the same thing as making fun of women who like pumpkin spice lattes or pink things. these are gay men. what does it mean when media about a marginalized group is catered towards people who don't identify as part of that group, to the point where the only mainstream media and non-identifying authors are upholstered? if we lived in an alternate world where it was the reverse -- where queer media was largely gay women and written by men and catered to men -- this would be up for scrutiny as well.
@@withcindy it is when it comes to porn. Ironically, the demographic that consumes the most lesbian porn is straight men who fetishize it. It honestly feels like the community can never win and we are just seen as a sexual fetish. And there deserves to be criticism of that, just as there deserves to be criticism of BL. What bothers me about the post you are referring to-person you and I both replied to-is the fact that the gay men in the community can be viewed as a fetishization because women say it’s okay. It feels very rad fem and TERFish.
@@desmondandtheirqueerdragons i replied to cindy last night but youtube deleted my comment. let me try again lol the point that y'all are missing is that these are FICTIONAL gay men. fetishizing doesn't mean what you think it does. i never said it was ok to fetishize anyone. because that is obviously a problem. but if you're a sane person who knows how to tell fiction from reality, there is no issue whatsoever in you consuming this type of content. it stops being a fetish there. it's fiction, it's not real, it's free real estate, and it should be a safe space for people to explore the depths of their imagination and it won't have any negative consequences in real life. like, i'm sorry that you had a couple of bad encounters with fujoshis and it sucks that a couple of bad apples rotten the whole bunch (the bad apples being 99% of the time dumb hormonal teenagers who will regret their actions in a couple of years so why do we care anyway) but for the most part, the people that i encounter online who consume MLM content are extremely mindful, considerate and actual allies. y'all don't even realize that each time you falsely and wrongly accuse women of being fetishists for liking BL and other MLM content you're jst feeding into the patriarchy and to cindy's point, yeah, we currently live in a transitional period where queer voices are still often overlooked, but how is that the fault of women 😭
I'm a trans woman who identified for most of her life as a femme gay man and then realized nope Transwoman. I kind of realized in my own writing that I would write a lot of femmine gay men because I thought that's what I was and then realized the problem with making every single relationship femme and masc it really leads to stereotypes especially since I no longer identify as male. I've grown a lot, but there's still more room for improvement
I (as a bi girl) love heartstopper because I relate to nick a lot and just the whole cast of characters is amazing and I love this comic. Alice Oseman is amazing Maybe you'd enjoy the later volumes where the side characters are more present ^^ Edit: I really appreciate that about the show gave the side characters more space, I think parts of the Tara and Darcy scenes existed as bonus comics or something and I'm happy they expanded on it
I agree with you and was here for this comment, as well. The criticism of the side characters not being as much a part of the books as the show is because the show is based on more than one volume, IIRC. So I feel like I’d be interested to see if she had the same reaction with the rest of the series.
@@whitneymouse yes, I agree. The comic was amazing from the beginning but over time it developed so much and I'm glad all that heartstopper is now is already in the show. I think Cindy would really like volume 3 ^^
@@zorro...... I think the books themselves have content warnings in the beginning, I know the chapters of the webcomic do and solitaire as a book had content warnings too
personally i feel like alice oseman does a rlly good job at representing gay men (as a bi man). its not perfect but definitely a lot better than some women i've seen. also, sometimes even better than some mlm romances i've read written by mlm people (in rare circumstances). i tend to get easily icked by bad mlm rep and alice never icked me that way. i don't think charlie was ever depicted as feminine, he has an ed caused by ocd which causes body image issues. thats why he describes himself as small and such, but charlie was never viewed as a feminine stereotype to me. i also used to have an ed so this was an extremely needed representation for me as a boy with a past ed. ive followed the comic for about four years and have been a huge fan, so i'm probably a bit biased but uhhh yeah. i do agree with the point about how its better as a queer story rather than just about nick and charlie! the show was great in that way :) anyway good video ! just wanted to share my opinion^^
I tend to nope out pretty fast from bad mlm romances. Like I tried to read "Heaven official's blessing" because people were saying it was good. I liked like the first half of the first volume then the love interest just became insufferably annoying, steals the spotlight whenever the MC was about to do something cool. Then spoilers told me the MC also becomes insufferable later like "why doesn't love interest worship the ground I walk on anymore, boohoo." kind of shit and I was out. Still not as bad as "I don't want to be loved" where the MC is insufferable and has a victim complex which involves her constantly shooting herself in the foot then gaslighting and blaming her love interest for everything. He's the only one putting his hand out halfway to try and fix their relationship, working on himself to become a better person, and breaking his back carrying the entire relationship on his own, meanwhile the MC just keeps doubling down on stupid decisions. He deserved so much better, yet I see commenters like "He is the only one in the wrong" when the author clearly shows how much on an unreliable narrator the MC is, boggles my mind. Literally the worst novel I've read in the post couple of year
"if you spend your time watching some asian lady cook you definitely have anxiety issues" me, recently diagnosed with an anxiety disorder: "she got me there"
Something else to mention about the Heartstopper graphic novels...the characters Nick & Charlie, believe it or not, were ORIGINALLY side characters themselves! The writer, Alice Oseman, originally wrote a book called Solitaire that starred Charlie's older sister, Tori (the scary girl who pops up out of nowhere in the tv series lol). But Alice loved the characters of Charlie & Nick so much that she created a whole arc just for them called Heartstopper. The Heartstopper story itself is ONLY about Nick & Charlie's story, really. But when they decided to adapt for tv, they couldn't just use 2 primary characters and that's it. That wouldn't work for tv. That's why the other side characters were given more to do compared to the graphic novels. Note: Alice's first novel, Solitaire, actually takes place roughly a year AFTER the events of the Heartstopper graphic novels. Also, the character of Imogene was a brand new character created just for the show. Alice Oseman said the reason they created her was they needed a bit of added drama midway through the season for Nick to go through. The character of Isaac also does not appear in the graphic novel at all...but he IS based on another character from the novels named Aled. Aled was the main character of her 2nd novel called Radio Silence. Alice Oseman chose to not use the Aled character as it's possible he may get adapted with his own tv story later on down the road, but Isaac is basically a near-copy. Anyways, if you choose to read all of her novels, this is the order you should read them to keep in the best timeline order (Note: Her books don't actually pertain to a specific year, the years listed are just for ease of reading. She specifically says her novels take place in "present time" at the time you read them): January 2010: Heartstopper Volume 1 begins. (Volume 1 & 2 were used for Season 1 of tv show) April 2010: Heartstopper Volume 1 ends/2 begins. May 2010: Heartstopper Volume 2 ends/3 begins. (It is expected Season 2 of Heartstopper will be based on Volume 3) August 2010: Heartstopper Volume 3 ends/4 begins. (It is expected Season 3 of Heartstopper will be based on Volume 4) December 2010: Heartstopper: This Winter takes place (Nick & Charlie Christmas story) January 2011: Solitaire begins February 2011: Solitaire ends/Radio Silence Prologue takes place) June 2012: Nick & Charlie novel begins July 2012: Nick & Charlie novel ends May 2013: Radio Silence begins (except for the prologue) August 2014: Radio Silence ends August 2017: I Was Born for This takes place. August 2018: Loveless begins. May 2019: Loveless ends. aliceoseman.com/ya-fiction/in-what-order-should-i-read-your-books/
Does anyone know if Cindy has read Gideon the Ninth? Cindy, I feel like the lesbian necromancer atmosphere and humor in that book would be right up your alley
@Alyssa Martin hahahaha YES. It is quite gory. And book two gets even worse (which I love, but can definitely see how that can be off putting for some people)
I really appreciate how you dont read strictly hyped up ya books. You've truly grown my tbr pile and have gotten me to read out of my usual choices and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Love ya, keep it up girl. ❤👏🏻
I thought it was interesting to see that Alice Oseman was the sole writer of each episode of the tv series, I liked seeing that she chose to expand the story and add more representation when given the chance :)
Cindy! How have you not read Gideon the Ninth by Tamsyn Muir yet? Do the words Lesbian Space Jesus mean nothing to you?! 💀😜 Haunted gothic palace! Childhood enemies! Necromancy! Obscure meme references! Skeletons!
I personally like the heartstopper comics a lot. I’m a gay guy in high school and it felt really good reading it. It felt super authentic to how queer relationships work in high school, and also just relationships in high school in general. And I understand where you’re coming from for sure, I prefer how the show explores Tara, Darcy, Elle, and Tao a lot more to how the books do it, but I also prefer how the books handle Nick a lot more than how they handle him in the show. There isn’t really a huge difference but you can definitely tell in my opinion. I also love Nicks three friends in the show, and how they slowly realize Nick is dating Charlie, and how they start to learn a little bit more about queer people. I also really wish the show had Charlie’s little brother. It’s such a small thing but he really added so much. Idk, I love both the show and the books for their own reasons, and I definitely think the show has the potential to be so much better than the books in season two, but we’ll see I guess. Also I miss Aled lol, that’s all tho! I loved your take as well!
and again you stun me just with the intro!!! please read "Briefly, a Delicious Life" that Sapphic girl ghost falling for one of the best regarded female authors of the 19th century is a whole delicious mood
I agree so much on the stereotyping!!! As a feminine person myself, I think many people are surprised when I say that I'm pansexual (or that I like girls). I often feel like I'm not masculine enough for men to take me seriously. Or that they'll just fetishize us because of being feminine. Especially in gay male relationships, I know several people who fetishize it. It's very strange. It reinforced very heteronormative types of roles in relationships, rather then letting people just live their lives and enjoy who they are. Or who they want to be.(Ex, two fem girls, two masc guys.)
i feel like reinforcing heternormative roles even in hetereosexual relationships is extremely damaging in and of itself. why cant there be two of the same? a masc women and a masc man or a fem women and a fem man. or with the roles switched a masc women and a fem man. it really makes me sad that people think they dont have options
A gay book i wanna reccommend to save yourselves from white authors: Aristotle and Dante. Written by a gay Mexican author. I love this books because it shows how despite all odds of homophobia in the 80s, these two boys were able to live their lives, with supportive parental figures. And the movie will be out soon. Promotion starts in August. The director is trans and they casted 2 teenage Mexican boys for the parts. Lin Manuel Miranda is also one of the producers
the way I was holding my breath while you started talking about Book Lovers because I hold all of Emily Henry's books near and dear to my heart 😭 glad we're on the same page (teehee) when it comes to how good it is
I was waiting for you to tear apart BookLovers that was my favorite book but glad you felt the same way. I love the book's unapologetic nature of being a career woman.
If you're looking for anymore great queer graphic novels, I highly recommend Molly Knox Ostertag's The Girl from the Sea. The focus of the story is a sapphic relationship between two teen girls, one of which is a selkie! It's amazing
I'm glad I watched the show before reading the Heartstopper books because now I can be like "ah yes, it doesn't show it, but right now Darcy and Tara are making friends with Elle" or "ah yes, it doesn't show it, but right now Tao and Elle are sitting alone in Tao's bedroom, madly in love, but refusing to act on it"
Your comments on Heartstopper reminded me of a Thai show I watched that follows a girl who writes fanfic about two of her male classmates (along with her best friend). One day, she gets a ride home from one of them and ends up in his body after an accident. By the end of the series, she figures out that her ship was secretly canon. Sadly, it was a tragedy drama and the other part of the ship was already dead, never inhabiting the other person's body in return. Had a satisfying ending though. It was a silly show i watched for a laugh, expecting it to be super cheesy, but it was surprisingly good
“If you’re spending your free time watching some Asian lady cook, you definitely have anxiety issues.” You’re right on the nail on that one but damn you don’t have to call me out 😭
"If you spend your free time watching some Asian lady cook for fun you definitely have anxiety issues." The saddest part is, she isn't wrong. I'm gay and I have anxiety, I am the stereotypical queer.
Personally, as a gay man, I vastly prefer the Heartstopper comics to the show. Mostly because the Tao stuff in the show is just so annoying. And because the acting was sometimes awkward. And the de-adultifying of it made it feel less authentic to what British schoolboys are like. And because even though Nick's coming out scene was great, they cut it way too short compared to the comic. But I never thought the comic felt inauthentic. Some gay dudes are small and weak. Some are insecure about that. And some, like Charlie, are that way because of underlying mental health issues. Charlie has never felt like a one-dimensional softboi to me. He's always been a three-dimensional character with his own issues and feelings. Softbois aren't rock drummers, softbois aren't assertive and flirtatious. I think getting sad that your boyfriend punched a homophobe in the face for you is more of a softboi trait than anything comic Charlie does tbh.
As much as I liked Heartsopper the Comic it is not the inclusive thing people make it out to be. Yes there are Poc characters but only in supporting roles. Kinda sad that first kill got canceled. So many "trashy/bad" shows get sequals and so many seasons but here we had a black lesbian as a main character plus her family dynamic front in center and it gets canceled. So i kinda understand people being upset that netflix pumps out stuff like heartstopper as their queer recs but everything with more poc coverage especially as the main characters gets cancelled after one season
And the reason I like your channel/videos is that you have unpopular opinions and you’re honest about those opinions. You think in a different way than other booktubers and I appreciate that about you!
I agree that it's nice to have just a plain wholesome coming of age mlm story that doesn't fetishize their characters like in Heartstopper, but I've seen people in turn use it as a jab at Japanese BL/ya*i and I don't think that's a fair comparison? Like yes BL is often made by women for women, but from what I understand it's because it's used as a way to explore their sexuality without the sexism often present in het relationships. Of course the objectification and fetishizing is an issue, but I don't think that's exclusive to BL media from Japan. Like, there's a difference between consuming that, and being that guy in the bar asking two lesbians to kiss in front of him. I think there's a place and appeal for stories that are actual queer representation, and stories that are just p*rny (my risqué anthologies made by queer creators can vouch for that). I've seen people talk about this a lot because Alice Oseman in particular made this sort of comment about how BL is bad, and considering a lot of BL is made by Asian creators who live in pretty sexually oppressive and misogynist countries, it kind of hit home for me, and I wanted to hear your thoughts?
ah i dont read japanese BL or yaoi so i dont have an informed response for that; i was more so thinking it's nice to have a wholesome coming of age queer story in the context of american and british media, which often shows a limited sexualized depiction of it
I haven't read Heartstopper yet and I think that I'll turn mad if I won't! I loved the show, it's my new comfort show so I'm sure that I'll love the books too! I am a big fan of comics as well so I'm even more excited to read the series!
11:38 - THIS! Exactly what you said here about these characters meeting is how I feel about romance books recently. Like I love some good ole romance to escape from my dry love life, but the writing is so lazy for a lot of them. It's either they never build up the character's attraction for us to go along that journey slowly rooting for them, or the foundation of their attraction is literally just sex and constant thoughts of lust when you get to their individual internal dialogue. I don't know if it's because I'm not well versed in the romance genre so I'm maybe just reading the really bad ones. But sometimes I'm tired of relying on teen romance books for proper build up that isn't entirely reliant on sex or rushed attraction because consumers are eating that lazy shit up like it isn't in every other adult romance book. BTW I'd take any romance recs that actually does it well because I feel like I'm missing out since the bad minority is in the limelight.
I would recomend the glittering court series by richelle mead. It has some fantasy elements but is mainly focused on romance. The first book is good the third book is great. Don't brother with the second book since it suffers from the exact problem you are describing. It's a shame because it's the only one of them, with a poc protagonist.
I find it hard to find w/w centred books where the characters actually have chemistry and aren’t just a case of convenient insta-love. ‘Of Fire and Stars’ by Audrey Coulthurst and ‘How to Make a Wish’ by Ashley Herring Blake are two books I highly recommend as the chemistry is just *chefs kiss*
thank you for talking about non gay men writing gay men. i love hs, i love a lot of gay media by non gay men- but it still doesnt feel authentic to me. i enjoy it, i can relate sometimes but its not real to me. though that also has to do w me not being white thin and cis so
Alice oseman actually wrote the script for the Netflix adaptation as well and several books about other characters in the same world as the graphic novel I really liked radio silence
haven’t even watched the video yet and i’m already triggered by the mention of ve schwab since a teacher who used to abuse me LOVED their books. i can’t even walk past the fantasy section in a bookstore or library anymore lmao
If you’re delving into graphic novels then I recommend “Woman World” by Aminder Dhaliwal, where the only survivors of a deadly disease are woman and people who identify as female. It’s definitely one of the more light hearted apocalypses out there
One of the things I appreciated about Heartstopper was the decision to make Nick bi. I feel like there is not a lot of bi boy representation, and bi erasure is so real that when Charlie said ‘ I people exist’ I was like, ‘yea they do!….wait, I mean yea we do!’. I bi erasured my damn self 🤦🏽♀️
Tbh the Heartstopper tv series was also written by Alice Oseman, so she probably expanded on other characters she knew she hadn't given much spotlight to. But yeah, the comics didn't have much of the other characters outside of the main two. That was one aspect of the show I preferred over the comic. Also, I read Kay O'Neill's other webcomic, Tea Dragon Society. It has a graphic novel too! I should try out Aquicorn Cove, coz I love TDS's vibe, aesthetic, and character designs.
i feel the same way about heartstopper's comic. like it felt like someone clearly had a story in their head and shared it for fun and it blew out of proportion instead of someone who went into detail to represent the queer amab experience. which is valid and why webtoon exists it's just a bit odd how much discourse and conversation centers this one little piece of the pie, yknow?
As a female Asian, when my friend and I were watching heartstopper we felt ehhh about the story and both agreed it was just okay. I feel like if I were white I’d enjoy it more as it feels like a very white story, and found it low-key hard to relate to parts since the setting is based in a very white part of the U.K. However, the parts I did enjoy was actually the poc friends story more, and my friend and I both agreed that in the show the poc plotline was more entertaining and relatable such as the wlw.
The minute I heard the macaroni, I just KNEW she was going to make a 😺 joke 😂 Also, you're right on the stereotyping of same sex relationships. While fem/masc gay relationships do exist, to do it so much still plays into heteronormativity of who is the "man" and who is the "woman"
but like straight men and straight women arent even like that. why does the man have to do that in the relationship? why does the woman have to play this role?
I kinda agree on Heartstopper, I think people are just really excited cause a lot of LGBT media in the last 5-10 years in that YA/Middlegrade/Teenage style hasn't had much for Gay Men specifically, it's usually about Lesbians, Bisexual Woman or Transgender characters - which I'm still excited to see happen! Heartstopper's original audience is largely people into cartoons, comics, anime and manga, where gay men normally get scraps and censorship or in the case of anime and mange we gotta deal with yaoi written by fetishistic woman and stories where the man saying no "learns to enjoy it" and other disgusting stuff like that. In a sea on non-consequential gay stories, Heartstopper's audience was just happy to find something that hit the bare minimum. However I fully agree we need more than Heartstopper and to finally see a story by a gay man in the Graphic Novel/Comics/Manga space that gets as successful.
When I saw Book Lovers in the title i got soooooo nervous b/c i wasn't sure if i should try other emily henry books b/c i literally read People We Meet on Vacation b/c you sold me on the friends to lovers romance so hard. I'm new to contemporary romance but despite the preppy privileged white girl vibes of the protagonsit I really, really liked it b/c the way you described it reminded me so much of When Harry Met Sally which is one of my fav movies & turns out i was right on target. I wasn't sure if i would enjoy her other books without that WHMS homage aspect, but i think i might. Everyone says that Emily Henry's romance books tend to place other subjects also at the forefront but for me, i think that would be a feature, not a bug. Guess I'm gonna have to pick this one up too!
yes as someone who enjoyed PWMOV i also enjoyed book lovers! the latter is less romance and more about the familial issues and interpersonal reflections that the MC deals with
Ugh I missed it again. I wish I could be there as soon as you uploaded, it's really nice watching and chatting with you but job is such a b... Still glad every time you upload. Your humor always makes my day better. Have a nice day, Cindy
i actually like hearing your criticisms on books that i liked, i can always see where you're coming from and you're not mean about it. i also love that you lay out exactly why you're criticising something it's so helpful for my tbr list because i can decide if it's something i care about or not (i had to remove portait of a thief bc ik i would not be able to stop thinking about everything being "full of possibility" lol)
I'm a Heartstopper fan and I love how sweet the book is, but I agree with your criticisms. I wish the side characters had more depth and complexity. It felt a bit shallow at times. Also, thanks for bringing my attention to BL stereotypes! I wasn't aware of them. Now that I know, I can spot when books/comics are stereotypical and/or harmful and avoid the stereotypes in my own work. Random but somewhat relevant info dump about my books: I'm a non-binary, ace trans guy, and I'm writing about a fellow trans ace enby dude who falls in love with a chaotic drag queen. Both are alien mermaids. The former is an undead diplomat, the latter is a gangster farmer. I'm having way too much fun.
"I, too, want to be rescued by a hot mermaid where she takes me to her underground palace," not me hearing this and thinking of an euphemism instead even though you didn't mean it that way
I too am bothered by how much focus is put on how one man in a gay relationship is so much taller and broader than the twink character. And then make them fit into heteronormative structures of feminine (which is always the smaller one) and masculine roles in the relationship. It's fine if it's there, but the focus should not be on that.
I love watching Cindy cook because I, too, am a mess that sometimes cooks unexplainable yummy food after doing the most suspicious gastronomic things known to mankind ✊😔
A mini vent sorry in advance ⬇️ It's a bit frustrating that WLW stories seem to only be liked by actual sapphics whereas MLM is beloved by all queer people AND straight people alike :/ Off topic but I also noticed that sapphic(s) always tend to serve as the advisers of queer guys on their queer problems (ex. Heartstopper - Tara & Darcy, Batman: The Wayne Family Adventures - Kate to Tim on Ep. 40 and 41) but I rarely see that happen vice versa with queer men doing that for the sapphics :< where's the mlm and wlw solidarity?? 😰 if you guys know more media where queer men give advice to sapphics may you please comment it down below? ty💖
I actually avoided reading the Heartstopper comics before the show came out, simply because the cover lead me to assume that the story would be stereotypical and un-nuanced. However I ended up loving the show and finding it super comforting, so I read the comics to further engulf myself in the world of Nick and Charlie. I agree with a lot of the comments that it didn't feel as fleshed out as the show (which is natural as Alice wrote the comics when she was pretty young) and that the character of Charlie did at times play into this really weedy, helpless stereotype that could be really grating. I also thought the comics prioritised fluff over nuance which was something the show definitely remedied. At the same time, I appreciated the books as a frame for the show's plotline, and I know that so many queer people have found it super representative and helpful with their self-discovery journeys which is great! And I did really appreciate how the third and fourth comics explored deeper issues such as mental health, which goes to show how much Alice Oseman developed as an author from volume 1-4 :)
