They are Rogues. Stolen land, yet they were made a State. When the Real owners of the land hundreds of years later is still not known as a State. What a screwed up & Corrupt world
At least they can't be accused of having rushed anything through. It shows there has been a careful and balanced consideration of all the facts, historical, political and material.
@@queenvagabond8787 it still bothers me though that they still need "time" to judge all of the evidences when all of them have been shown very clearly to the world for DECADES.
@@byunbaekhyun2283 The evidence hadn't been tested by a rigorous judicial process to see if it meets the thresholds of the international legal system. That's the point of having the system. They can't just declare they've read a bunch of newspaper articles or even Amnesty reports and rule on that basis.
@leathan7 You missed my point. I never disputed that. I pointed out guilt hadn't been established in a court to a legal standard of proof. Would you have them make decisions without a process? You are complaining that a legal process takes time. It makes no sense. Judgements are valuable precisely because they emerge from a process in which each claim and counter claim has been rigorously tested. Nothing is stopping you just declaring Israel guilty of it's crimes. The value of the ICC is that their guilt is now legally proven. If you just declare guilt without process what weight would that have? Either you have a legal process or you don't but you can't complain courts don't convict without that process. It would not be a court worthy of the name if it did.
@@byunbaekhyun2283 Oh, absolutely, I don't disagree. Anyone paying attention since the early 2000s knows what has been going on, and its shocking its taken this long, but any judicial process does take time sadly....
@@NeilCheesman but that makes no sense! Firstly, Gaza and Jerusalem and all the PA areas were given to the Jews by the League of Nations at San Remo in 1920. That's binding international law, Secondly, how is Israel illegally occupying East Jerusalem? EJ is called EJ because it was the part taken by illegal Jordanian invasion in 49! So, how can Israel be asked to leave an area that was given to them in 1920 and is only partitioned and designated EJ on the basis of illegal Jordanian invasion? Is the court calling for Jordan to retake EJ? Or are they basing palestinian ownership of EJ on Jordanian invasion? It's totally incoherent.
ICJ ruling has no effect on apartheid colonial state of Israel because with the help of its Western allies Israel has assumed status of above the international laws .
thank you novara !!! i watch the court ruling in its entiretiy today .... i was even more disapointed than i usually am to see the bbc attempt to cover up its importance by showing a few mins only of the courts version in french with an english translation when the could have just shown the courts english version !
The US must now actively force Israel to vacate all occupied territories through a Security Council Resolution and with a UN peacekeeping army in 2024. The time has come to restore international law.
Thought personally Bastani got a bit too GB news there, not really listening properly to Micheal's point and just digging his heels in to align with his pre-established view which he didn't appear open to question. Like asking for the name of a study showing that the French are more racist than the British?? He came off quite petulant during much of that segment imo
@@marcjameson7540 Fair. I feel they were talking each other a bit. Walker's fixation on the one commonality he could find with the US was genuinely kind of bizarre though. The relationship between that and racism is interesting, and that is definitely something deserving of a deep dive. But so far off from the main thrust of Bastani's argument that it was kind of irrelevant. And Aaron's right when he says we are not like the US. Instead of clinging to some bizarre sense of anglo solidarity, we really do need to be looking at what other countries (besides the US) are doing better than us. Then again, the one and only thing that got our politicians to think, "Hmm, maybe we should follow Europe's lead on this" is austerity, so uh...
Marc, here's why you're wrong on that. Bastani's point was that there's no “Anglo model”, that the UK economy is pathetic and falling behind, and that believing otherwise is cope. Michael's response was to say “liberal job markets keep unemployment low and facilitate integration”. How is that at all relevant to Bastani's point? It's not. It's one single perk of liberal jobs market. It doesn't put a dent into Bastani's generalized, pessimistic analysis of the UK economy. You weren't properly listening to what was being said. You were blankly watching talking faces on a screen and choosing who's right based on their tone of voice or willingness to concede to counterargument.
@@catonkatonk yeah I agree more of less. Truthfully I commented before having finished watching the segment - and by the end Walker's insistence to continue talking about the labour market was strange and definitely besides the point. However, I fail to see how both couldn't simply concede that two things can be true at once; that a loose labour market appears to be good for social cohesion and that on most of the important metrics, France is so obviously doing better than the UK. I think there's more to the similarities between the UK and US than were discusses, hence why I think it was unfair for Bastani to completely interrupt and shut down walker For instance, our model of Higher Education is quite similar to the US's (i.e., more liberal than major EU countries) and is one of the most successful in the world (at least in terms of Global Rankings and our net exports) - even if student debt in both countries is now a massive issue. Obviously we aren't anything like the US on the things that matter, energy, security, etc - which Bastani is so obviously right about - but I think its disingenuous to claim that we've not developed similar forms of neoliberalism in the past number of decades that is substantively different from the average EU state.
@@deepfamiliar3416 hello deepfamiliar3461, please see my previous reply for more in depth thoughts re: similarities between the UK and US. Two things can be true at once and indeed the UK's economy *is* significantly worse than the US's and that is leading it to be a less successful country than France , but at the same time, it is a better country to be a minority in, plausibly thanks to a looser labour market. The debate could probably have been ended with that. However, it must also be pointed out that Bastani's argument was broadly correct and also that him shouting that Michael shouldn't read The Economist and interrupting him while he attempts to provide an argument is an immature way to behave during a discussion. While I do personally think there are greater similarities to the US and UK beyond the labour market, Michael did fail to bring these up. Yet, to say that a tight labour market engendering poor civil cohesion is irrelevant is irrelevant to the argument is bizarre to me. Because it is that poor cohesion, and the much higher prevalence and normalisation of racism in France which could plausibly bring in an RN government in the coming years - which could go a long way to replicate the damage that the Conservatives have done here in the UK over the past 14 years, unravelling the gains France has on us, which Bastani correctly identifies. Again, walker failed to bring these points up or expand on his argument - however imo a more fleshed-out version of his argument clearly does have merit - as I've tried to explain :)
It is an Apartheid state and we don't need any court ruling we can judge it for ourselves, we know it, we can see it, the world can see it. So the court giving their opinion is just a bonus because we already know it.
The slander against Mothin Ali is so depressing but at least I've seen even the Daily Mail had the correct headline, calling him a hero. I hope that Tory MP is forced to retract or sued. MPs complain so much about online toxicity and fake news, but they are the progenitors of so much of it.
From Wikipedia: "Sebutinde credited Pastor Gary Skinner of the Pentecostal Watoto Church of having a major influence on her life. The Watoto Church and Pastor Gary are associated with Christian Zionism." This should explain her voting behavior.
There should be a way to remove her - the ICJ deals with world issues, not to be taken lightly. For someone to CONSISTENTLY fail to acknowledge evidence put before her and side with the perpetrator of g-cide! Shes giving Africans a seriously bad rep and her finances should be looked into. Will have to look into how these decisions are made, but if she doesnt represent the Ugandans, as is claimed, isnt it the responsibility of Ugandan govt to replace her?
@@rubi8051 last time I watched the Ugandan goverment made an official statement that she doesn't represent their or the Ugandans' population stance. I don't know how these things work but I don't think they can replace her.
As a French person, I can say Michael is right when he is saying France is more racist than UK. A lot of crazy racist stuff happen like fascists parading in the streets of Paris and Lyon. Minorities are more and more scared here. During the last election, people were thinking of leaving the country for fear of persécutions.
France is for all French citizens all French African citizens have paid for their citizenship through French colonisation and all the wealth the state of France took from the Africa nations they colonised. Those Africa french speaking countries are still paying for their freedom from French imperialist to this today. How about the French pay back what they have stolen from Africa
@@Lurch685 French citizens came from everywhere around the world. The non-French citizens have their place in this country and have the right to a decent life...even if we have still have to fight.
If the United States doesn’t like a judgement of the ICJ, then it dismisses it as a hostile forum. When it does like the judgements, it talks about a rules based international order.
I'm confused as to why the ICJ ruling is being presented as something new. We already have many UN resolutions on the illegality of the Israeli settlements dating back to the 70s. I'm pretty sure that even the ICJ has already ruled on this in the past and even the Israeli Supreme Court on multiple occasions has deemed the settlements illegal under international law. So why has today's judgement been presented as a new state of affairs? The settlements have been deemed illegal for a very long time already.
I wonder how many % of the south africa doctors and nurses were africans during the aparthide? Do you know? I wonder how many seats they had on the south african parlement? I'll be glad to know if someone knows. U wanna know about israel?
Michael has lost the plot regarding his French argument ... more integration in Anglo societies??? Putting aside that the US has been separating families at the southern border and putting children in cages while the UK was looking to sent migrants to Rwanda or that Brexit and Trump are basically referendums about immigration . Britain still has overseas territories it's former colonies whose residents have limited voting rights and limited freedom of movement to the UK. France conversely has overseas France its former colonies that are now part of France and its people are full EU citizens. Which country sounds more ingrated?
Sorry, but France is a really racist country. Europe in general is really racist and there are a lot of problems with integration. Yes, Rwanda scheme and recent years moral panic is taking Britain the same way. But in my experience migrants in the UK have been way more integrated than in France or Spain. I won't die on any hill though, but let's not pretend France doesn't have a really big problem with racism
Re France: when we lived there, wherever we went, we heard this, "Je suis pas raciste, mais je n'aime pas les arabes." despite the fact that their most popular footballer was from North Africa.
I have been listening to Novara for years and must admit it feels more and more mainstream. Aarons' monologue on Trump having a bit highlander in him is one example of this.
you guys should actually debate. you should plan this. what Aron was saying seemed pretty legit to me, without those massive resources you can't say "we have the same model as the US". comparison btw UK and France was also pretty interesting to me.
Am more with Aaron on this one. How does Micheal conclude that more worker insecurity (i.e. a liberalised labour market) leads to less racism? That literally boggles the mind. In fact, it is possible to argue that it increases racism. A liberalised labour market seeks to increase the profit of big businesses/corporations at the expense of working people, hence the incentives lie in getting cheap labour from migrants at the expense of the established working class (the majority of which are white). Thus, u get more racism as those individuals resent migrants. Yes, one may argue the labour pool becomes more diverse but that doesn't mean an end or reduction of racism (see the rise of reform during the reign of the first PM of colour or the racist Rwanda deportation program operated under him). Indeed one can associate a more negative perception of migrants/ an increase in racism in France, in large to variables such as media narratives about the migrant crisis, an overall increase in migration, and conspiracy theories like the great replacement theory (a theory which originates from France). Indeed it is also possible to argue - as Aaron did - a difference in cultural attitudes. Racism exists in the UK but it's a more subtle and British type which does not encourage a public expression of such ideas, rather it is an expression reserved and shared in tight private spaces (i.e. with family, and close friends). In France, attitudes are much more overt mainly because of the secular institutionalism of racism. E.g. ban on the religious regalia of Muslim women guised in arguments of secularism. The UK does not emphasise a commitment to circularism like France. Creating little institutional cover for overt expressions of racist behaviours by the state. In short, racism in the UK expresses itself more in private space as compared to France which allows it to operate legitimately through the bureaucracy brought about by its "commitment to the secular traditions". Note that my arguments regarding cheap labour and its relationship with migrants are extremely simplified.
This is a helpful comment. I also think it could be worth differentiating the views of individual people in a state, and state policy globally. With that in mind, I absolutely cannot accept that the US and UK are among the least racist countries, it's really against the evidence. And Michael's mention of how people feel about their children marrying someone from a different racialised background - if he is referring to how white people feel about it, perhaps that would be better understood as a measure of white supremacy particularly, and if he's referring to how people of all backgrounds feel about it, racism would not be the only reason. It's a very, very poor measure of 'racism' (as if that's one singular, generic, static thing) and very poor methodology. In my opinion 'reading articles and polls' is really not enough to so conclusively (and condescendingly) insist on the points Michael was making.
this reiteration of already established International Law serves as the foundation for a ruling (as made in 2004 by the ICJ) that Israel has no right of self-defence in relation to the Occupied Palestinian Territories
@Aaron I'm really impressed with your argument and conclusion that France is killing us. Might you give us a website post on this please? Thanks a million.
Mike our unemployment rate was 4.4%. There are more black people in France than the UK. The reason that Europe in general is more dirigiste is because they are on average more racially homogeneous which means that the voter base is more willing to pay for the education and public services of people that look like them. So there is a relationship between the political economy and racism but it is negative. We are further along the free market road as we have been divided by the top 1% to justify the erosion of the welfare state. Again Mike if you go to France you'll see a plethora of interracial relationships. Your assertion that economic liberalism and its undeniable induction of income inequality is good for racial harmony is not really accurate. Labour market flexibility has actually caused a backlash from the disgruntled white working class. There are innumerable critiques from the Right about ‘insourcing’; whereby minorities come to the UK and work for low wages, which depress wages and extract money from the economy via remittances to their loved ones. Arron is correct France has a higher productivity index than the UK and far more social provision. There is a multitude of inputs that have resulted in UK social attitudes and I doubt severely that precarious working conditions and zero hours contracts are the main impetus for these social attitudes. I think your argument is reductive in that you're excluding far more probable causes of differential attitudes such as the social mores and psychological differences between the British and the French. I will not deny that i feel safer in the UK, as a black man, than I ever would in France but I don't think uber or deliveroo is to be credited with that sense of security.
@erikt No-one said it was the whole of the 0ccupat1onaI state that is lz raiI. If they, 0ccupy any part of another Iand, they are therfore a 0ccupationaI state. You understand that right
Reported attitudes to so called ethnic minorities tells you nothing about racism in either UK or France racism is not a psychological malfunction in individuals but a social construct that serves to maintain hierarchy and inequality
Technology monopolies are a HUGE issue in my eyes, they control the window through which the majority of us view the world, and not just when online. The usual "transparency" of these windows lulls us into a false sense of security. These companies are sleeping giants with the power they hold- this "glitch" is a brief glimpse of a small amount of that power. The way platforms such as facebook, x, youtube, etc prime and control people's emotions and views is deeply insidious and thorough and this is a bigger issue than a worldwide glitch for one day. So few people hold so much power by nature of the way digital technology works, there's full top down control- and these are the "trusted" platforms which we are all forced to put our blind faith in! They are not being held accountable for their actions and are completely out of control wrt regulation and oversight in the interest of public good. I wish Novara had an expert to speak to regarding the impact of technology on our lives, and how these systems work
I really love the variety of thoughts in Novara and how they can call each othet out. I think its really enriching when Michael Walker gives us his opinions. I enjoyed the discussion at the end, although I think Aaron could have been less defensive and open to listening. If you want to convince someone of your point do not be so aggressive 😅
I lived in France for a year, and was struck by how openly racist the average person was. It's one of the reasons I moved back to the UK. They do have much better holiday time off compared to UK workers though. Huge swathes of the population don't work for the whole month of August every year!!
Hahaha Aaron telling Michael he's reading the Economist too much had me crying. Lenin would retweet if he was still alive (RIP the goat). So glad to have Aaron speak his mind on Friday, great to have someone able to easily dispute Michaels pattern of "restraint". (Here, he was trying to find and justify the best form of capitalism.)
Official unemployment figures might be low in the UK but 20% of the working age population is economically inactive. The majority of those are claiming some sort of benefit on the basis that they’re unfit for work. A lot of these people are ill because of that economic circumstances.
Funny final debate. Appreciate the openness. Afaik average American s lot more racist than the French. America still effectively has the Jim Crowe laws and all that history and precedent. France doesn't have a Mississippi. There are levels to this.
The conversation got spicy at the end and I'm really glad to see it. We're all leftists, joke about infighting all you want, but we have to have rigourous discourse internally so we do put forward the best plan for the future
I don't think AOC's argument is so much that donors are always wrong, it's more that it should be voters not donors motivating her colleagues' decisions. I don't think this is so much an overcompensation on her part as a misunderstanding on Bastani's. I agree though that the Squad's short term opportunism is likely to backfire.
I absolutely love you guys. What you do is amazing. But I feel that Michael is showing his colours on this one. UK has low unemployment, but also low wages. Is this something to be celebrated or does it show that the rights of the individual in the UK has been undermined. I'm from Australia, we have great wages and freedom, yet we are a racist country. I agree and our racism is laid bare for all to talk about. I was living in the UK for a few years and I found that society in the UK is SO MUCH MORE racist than Australia. At least in Australia we all agree racism is happening. The UK pretty much has a colour defining class system and they all go "well very well, we are very antiracist" when actually the British society is the most racist society I've ever lived in. It's just manners prevents you from talking about it.
Wasn’t there an African American Olympian before the success of the civil rights movement? Aarons argument doesn’t make sense there…just because France has African football players, it doesn’t mean they’re not racist. He did say that’s it’s institutional, but those policies are voted in no? Am I missing something?
It's not a matter of the donors being right or wrong, it's that politicians are more concerned with what they think over what regular voters think, even if they both happen to have the same opinion
On the topic of attitudes towards minorities in Europe compared to the UK, I agree with Michael. I live in Spain and even though Spain won the Euros, while the national team held an event in Madrid for the fans, there was racial chanting towards Lamine Yamal due to his Muslim background. Draped in their Spanish flags, they chanted, "Lamine Yamal eats ham."
Aaron pissed me off at 58:55, not letting Michael talk, he sounded like the politicians that we hate so much. I lost alot of respect for him there. Well done Michael for keeping such a level head when disrespected by a colleage. **Edit it's fine to want to make a point but interrupting people and talking down to people for having an opinion is no way to constructively get a point across. Questions their beliefs, then calmly and respectfully dismantle them explaining the flaws.* Chastising a colleage on the internet is just shamefull behaviour. Michael is a good guy and if he's misinformed, educate him not humiliate him.*
