In Defense of Gundam Wing  

Edit: The Amount of salty Seed fanboys in the comments being mad because their show sucks has guaranteed that I'll be mocking Seed for the next two years at the very least. Just a heads up but I goofed with the vid. I forgot to update the Patrons list. It'll be updated for the next vids. As for being able to get on that list, there's gonna be a new way! We're opening up Channel Memberships! I've still gotta do some configuring with Discord for server access, but that'll be available plus access to polls for review choices and things of that nature. So Don't hesitate to sign up!

Gundam Wing/ Trigun/ Outlaw Star. These were the trinity of early 2000's Toonami anime, and always hold a place in my heart.

My mom asked if the dishes were done and I yelled "Gundam Wing" She hugged me. She knew they were washed.

Gundam Wing is focus on female viewers who like bishonen characters. Like G Gundam is focus on viewers who like Super Robot and Insane Characters.

Gundam Wing is one of the smartest Gundam series that actually manages to explore thoughtful questions regarding the nature of war and peace in its writing. Not to mention the discussion on drone warfare was extremely prescient in hindsight and Wing does not get enough credit for that. Not to mention it's handling of power scaling of the grunt suits in Wing was excellently done, second only to the original 0079. A lot of later Gundam series could really learn a thing or two from Wing.

The real travesty is that we get next to no model kits for any of the other mobile suits in wing that arent a gundam

If anything, I honestly think that Gundam Wing is one of the best of the Gundam franchise. It was definitely my favorite Gundam series growing up during the early toonami days, and it's still one of my favorite Gundam shows in the franchise. I don't think it needs a defense. Gundam Wing is great.

Gundam Wing got me into the series, will always have a special place in my heart. Love the action and the suits

So when do we get this show back for the Weekday Toonami Revival on CN? I get Sailor Moon, DB KAI and One Piece but where's Heero?

Wing is awesome if you don't mind melodrama and can get through some of the slower paced parts and can get over the plot armor. It's probably one of my favorites.

Gundam Wing was my first taste of the Gundam franchise and I still love it to this day. But I am a fan of Gundam Seed too.

Wing is probably my favorite series in Gundam, alongside G-Gundam and 00.

Wing was the starting point for me. I will cherish it forever.

Gundam Wing will always be the GOAT because it brought Gundam to the USA in a Big Way. Gundam 00 was just Awesome All around. Both have my favorite Gundams in the whole Franchise

The scene in Endless Waltz where Zero is revealed for the first time is the single greatest piece of animation ever made by man and I will gladly die on this hill.

From toonami to now, I still love Wing, flaws & all. Heero will always be my favorite Gundam pilot. Wing Zero Custom will always be my favorite Gundam. Gundam Wing will always have a special place in my heart for introducing me to the franchise.

Gundam Wing was the anime that got me into Gundam in general...watched it as a teen when it first aired on toonami and then when I became a full otaku years later; I watched the original Gundam and most of UC. So roughly 2 decades later and looking back at the series...the voice acting and everything else still holds up

Ah, such nostalgia for this show. A real classic and both Zechs and Treiz alone beat out Char, together though...the red comet never stood a chance. Plus looking back on things I really appreciate how the Leo fits in with everything else. Being basically the cheap mass production/low performance version of the Tallgeese, and helping to show how most of the suits are all in the same design family. Outside of perhaps the Maguanac, I can't think of much in the way of suits that aren't in some way connected or derivative of the Tallgeese/Leo design. And that's pretty neat that it's not too hard to see how connected things are there. Plus since the Leo was produced for at least about a decade, there's the real chance corners were cut in some of the factories, or have been operating since the earliest designs were put into production, so that could be why some of them perform especially bad before considering the pilots. Not like OZ needed everything to be top of the line as possible, they didn't exactly have much competition in the mech department until around when the show takes place.

The last 15 minutes of the show, where Wu Fang crashes through the wall and tosses Hiro the Wing Zero beam cannon, and he uses it to blow up the base made up for everything wrong with the Wing in my opinion.

Gundam Wing kickstarted gundam in the west and was the most popular gundam in America for many years. It's animation hasn't aged well and needs a HD remake with all the glory of losers extras in it.

Relina: "Here Heero, I'm inviting you to my birthday party" Heero rips up birthday invitation in dramatic fashion and whispers in Relina's ear Heero: "I'm going to kill you" cue CRAWLING IN MY SKIN THESE WOUNDS THEY WILL NOT HEAL!

Char has some of the most iconic mobile suits. Without a doubt, but saying that. Tallgeese every version is on its own level. I'm biased but the Tallgeese was the first gunpla I built, and every kitbash I do has parts of the Tallgeese(1-3) integrated into it because of just how good it looks.

Quatre destroyed a entire colony

I kinda wish they would remake wing combining elements from the show and GOTL and frozen teardrop to make a fuller, more complete story.

You mentioned doing a deep dive on Operation Meteor. Would that be Operation Meteor as originally intended as described in Endless Waltz or Operation Meteor as it ended up happening in the show after the scientists went rogue?

"Is Gundam Wing Really that Bad?" A lot of people ask that but I think the actual question should be: Is it wrong for Our Protagonists to be Subtle? Yeah a lot of people made fun of Heero showing his "Gratitude" towards Zechs for rebuilding his Gundam but I think that no one noticed that he wasn't even expecting a Thanks to begin with or at least is my interpretation of the scene.

Personally, I'd be down for Gundam Wing's sequel being put to animation, y'know the one where it's set on Mars.

Like you were saying with X; Wing captures essence of a mech. Outside of the plot armor of MCs durability critique, each mech looks, acts, and fulfills it's role properly and remains cohesive. The Leo is a grunt, buts it's a grunt made to take on and hold Earth. Anything else gets shown clear differences and new equipment.

A standard Seed hater. I have the same disdain you have for seed with Gundam 00.

People hate on Wing but it holds up. Yes it has that early 90s slowness at times, but as a setting it is arguably the best. Why they never did anything to expand it with spin off series taking place in the same universe, or made another series similar to Wing is beyond me

Totally agree with you. Wing was good, story was cool, the pilots were awesome, wing zero and death sythe for life and Zechs marquis was the best char clone. And the music was catchy

My main issue with wing is the conclusions of the story regarding the whole pure peace philosophy. Granted the details are muddled as it has been a long time since I watched it by now, but I recall it feeling a bit forced. Still, the worst for me was Zechs’ reason to still be fighting against the Gundams by the end. Wing isn’t a favourite of mine, but then again I am a massive UC fanboy. Sidenote, 100% with you regarding WFM, 00 and especially Seed. Seed is good if you like things like Code Geass: usually meaningless action and extremely thin writing that falls apart if you make the mistake of thinking about it a bit. And jiggle physics of course. As for Zechs vs Char, I am biased

I've been watching a lot of your videos lately and I have beeen enjoying them you just earned my subscription! Keep making quality content, I hope your channel grows!

No one doesn’t like Gundam wing. For most people in the 90s and 00s in the US it was the first into to the Gundam universe. It was for me. Heero and Gundam Zero will always be my favorite next to Epyon the whole zero and epyon system in the cockpit was an amazing idea. I really love all of the Gundam series, Wing and the movie are just my favorite.

ZZ Chads where we at?

I really appreciate your recap of the og Gundam show and I love Wing. Even if the Napoleonic/18th to 19th century style in clothing and etc in the show hinted at it I never considered your point of the theatricality of the characters and plot exposition on the show being as if it was a stage play. That was very clever. If I can give a piece of constructive criticism on your writing, however, I'd urge you to consider 2 things: 1st - Try to not be so personal in how close you hold on to stuff. Being passionate and loud about loving what you love is great but listing the shows you did at the start as "things I think are better/I'd rather watch" not only doesn't do much to talk about the show you're talking about, or the points you're gonna build up following it, but also open you up to criticism over your own tastes. And that'd be ok if some of your points weren't "and that's good" or "and that's just straight up bad" or "the people who think that are stupid", instead of actually talking about the thing and building a argument or pointing something out about it. I think you have a lot of insight on gundam, and Wing in particular, and I'd love to see more of that instead of blank statements like that. 2nd - Given that I'm not as big of a Gundam fan as you but you do this thing that I see comic book people do where they compare and contrast completely subjective fiction through a supposedly objective measurement (like "OH BUT MISS MARVEL IS THE MOST POWERFUL!" as if said "power" is objective instead of being a stylistic choice for that narrative) when you compare, for instance, death tolls in Wing and other shows. Those things vary based on the style of the narrative and the fiction it's being presented, so I'm always iffy on that. On this particular instance I didn't mind it was fine but you tend to do that often enough where I think I might bring it up. Sorry for the long spergy post but I love Wing and I'm stoked on your channel and vids. Hope the criticism might be of any use to you. Much love.

The Tallgeese will always be one of my favorite MS designs. It's got that medieval knight look to it which I like, and is a nice departure from the Samurai Gundam head.

Wing started the whole "Pretty boys with problems" troupe that lasted too long awhile in Gundam 🫴

Question: On the topic of Heero and the gangs' kill-counts do we count Mobile Dolls as well as human pilots?

I can see why people would say the writing in wing is lacking because it feels over stuffed. The events in the story don't have much time to breathe before something else comes in and takes over the plot, example Defeat OZ but then its changed to The Romerfeller foundation was the real big bad but hold on now White Fang are the big bad lead by Zechs and it was all just Zechs and Treize pulling a big ass troll on the on the world to scare everyone into peace all within about 10 months. The character development the gundam pilots was undercooked as well. Both Endless Waltz and GOL manga remedies this weakness, but if you don't view those stories, the characters are pretty one dimensional. Even with these weakness Wing is still a solid gateway drug to introduce new viewers into the franchise. The suit designs are still good and the music is one of my favorite ost's in the franchise.

I have just one thing to say……… TRANS-AMMMMMMMM That’s it that’s all

Oh I already know that the women jokes are going to be overplayed in this one

I had no idea people didn’t like Wing. I’m so disconnected from the world that to be honest opinions don’t sway me any direction. I just float on. I mean, I just relived it a few weeks ago and yes, it’s Japacheesy but what anime isn’t or doesn’t have those moments? For me, animation comes first, kinda like the first chord of a song. If the animation ain’t hitting the whole cartoon narrative is trash. Exclusion of those animations that go for the more simple art style. Some of those are bangers (Final Space.) Now I’m rambling anyways y’all take care.

The best part of Wing for me is, 1. The way that the pilots outright fail early on despite their superior technology, but then through their actions during that early part motivated the rest of the world, and eventually gave them a purpose and spurred them back into action, very unique and well conceived, 2. The costume design and general aesthetic - in part it's basically trying to be a 70s Historical Shoujo manga aesthetically, again, unique and cool for the franchise, 3. The OST, which was covered here. But I think it can be fairly contrived, like Zechs ordering an attack on Dorothy's ship when it approached Libra, her responding by giving the audience an exposition dump about Zech's past, which causes him to change his mind and allow her on board - I'm fine with the stageplay format, but that goes a bit too far into dramatic contrivance for me. Having Studio Dove do almost all of the animation meant that a lot of the time they could only just make sure that the drawings were staying together, and it was functional, but you didn't have the same amount of really great animation highlights that we were getting from Zeta through G. I also think that while Nishimori could draw up a mean storyboard - Relena's dismissal from Romefeller by Treize was incredible, for example, often things weren't as well shot or staged as what Tomino set as a standard in his work on the franchise. Some of this ties into animation as well - as Zeta, ZZ and Victory have characters constantly moving around the screen, interacting with objects, being drawn at interesting angles, lots of motion in and out of depth, and the mecha action is choreographed with the same level of nuance and laboriousness, but Tomino's shows didn't have Sunrise throw him one small (though high talented) subcontractor to try to pull all of that stuff off, they had proper rotations where different teams had sufficient time between their episodes, Dove's work on Victory tended to be stronger because they only did part of it, so Wing probably had some limitations in what was feasible. It did have it's moments though, especially the handful of times they could bring on mecha aces like Masami Goto, like episode 49, that episode was fantastic on all fronts. That all being said, Wing got me into Gundam back in 2001, I've only seen Zeta more times as far as Gundam TV series go, and I still have a lot of fondness for it and think it is good. Glad to see this video.

I will stand by the Leo as one of the very best grunt suits in all of Gundam.

Why do you feel the need to defend Wing?, Wing is fantastic.

Can we talk about how good of a shot Lady Une is? She just kicked that dude out of a jet and shot him through the head with a pistol as he was feefalling....

Gundam Wing has good plot points that other Gundam shows also use, such as secret warmonglers (which is literally almost the entire plot point of Gundam Seed), and unmanned mobile suits etc. I think the problem with Wing is they tried to put in too many additional factors that it overshadowed itself. Plus the mobile suit design conflicts between Katoki and Okiwara (some I agree with, some I do not) didn't help when the movie came out and it felt like we were missing a large chunk of the story .

Before I even start the video, gotta say Gundam Wing needs no defense as without it, who knows if/when we wouldn't gotten any other Gundam media in the US. Legendary status.

You love ZZ too?! I thought I was the only one. ZZ, G, and Wing fir me

I rewatched it years back subbed and the quality kinda holds it back honestly. Obviously its an old show so its gonna has issues with animation so stuff is gonna get resused a lot but its better than seed, especially destiny in that regard.

While this show was never my favorite or least favorite, one aspect that it's lost as it's aged is that it used to serve as a good entry point to the entire franchise for anyone who might find the older art-style and production values of the original Gundam series to be a turnoff since it's fifteen years older than Wing and undeniably looks it. Of course, Wing itself no longer looks like current anime so it's inevitable that some people would turn to newer entries like Seed and 00 to fill that role.

Milliardo Peacecraft has the better mobile suits. Especially Tallgeese III. My favorite mobile suit ever!

One of the things I respected the most about Wing, in hindsight, is how the pilots' "power" in this world, is linked entirely to their role as terrorists. I HATED how SeeD/Destiny basically had all the world leaders go "Hmmmmm....well we're all out of ideas, lets let the kids decide!" and made the angsty teen pilots responsible for major leadership decisions in government and military. It makes all the ancillary characters come off as weak, and gives the main roster of pilots waaaaayyyy too much credit which makes them into demigods at the tender age of "Not old enough to vote". Wing's pilots are kids who were trained in warfare and who only exert "power" in the plot by attacking. The gundams are feared and respected, as well as their pilots. The pilots only drive actions in the plot in this manner. And all of them are allowed to be twisted, fucked up young men who are put in this situation for one reason or another and the show lets their stories play out. No one's hands are clean. Everyone's a bastard. And Treize is a particularly magnificent bastard.

People who say they don't like wing just need to watch it again seriously

I was exposed to Universal Century and G-Gundam’s Future Century growing up, I just couldn’t get into wing’s story

4 weeks ago was my first taste of the gundam franchise, I watched iron blooded orphans and I loved it, just finsished the witch from mercury season 1 and 2, watched the last episode yesterday so now I’m planning on watching gundam seed, I’m like halfway through episode one wish me luck bois, this video has convinced me to watch gundam wing, but I’m already committed to seed so after I watch seed and destiny I’ll watch wing then I have to decide between 00 or U.C

Wait, people don't like Gundam Wing? I always thought it was better than Seed but i haven't watched it since highschool.

In my opinion, (GW was also my first entry to the Gundam franchise) Zechs easily has the more iconic suits as he never truly stays from his characterization, Char was the red comet but only half the time piloted red variations of grunt suits, the Tallgeese was the prototype gundam suit meant for mass production and as he was characterized as the mass production maestro, it suited Zechs to a T, probably to well from a realistic perspective

Aah finally someone doing Gundam Wing some justice, since for some of us in the Caribbean and Latin America, this show was our intro to the Gundam franchise ❤

I see you tried to sneak in the MG Proto Zero Wing Gundam as a Ver Ka at 21:58 😂 I'm not faulting you for it because I consider it a Ver Ka myself hahaha. Just wanted to be a nerd about. ALL EW WING SUITS ARE VER. KA!! Edit: Great fucking video, man. Loved it and your peaks at your Gunpla collection. You've gained a subscriber

Zechs has the cooler mask. And as a kid I didn't really appreciate the non gundam suits of any show. But over time that changed a lot. And the tallgeese has a killer design and the model kit is so pretty that might have to cop it.

Cant choose between, Epyon, Wing Zero, Calibarn and Zeta.

Gundam wing is the first gundam I watched back in 2001 in toonami.

20:24 “And knowing is half the Battle!”

I agree with the plot armor. Hero is made of the same alloy the gundams are to be able to jump from a building, roll through a cliff and walk it off, then in another episode take the gundam self destruct explosion to the chest and live.

Elitism in the Gundam fandom is truly bizarre. Don’t know how they crap on GN Drive tech and abilities that it grants, but can be perfectly fine with Newtype, dead people, space magic. Also the political plots of Gundam Wing are superior to all other Gundam series.

I tried seed, but I just couldn't get into it and dropped it a few eps in. I think there are two major arguments that are used against Wing and why people don't like it that much. First and foremost is animation quality being a mixed bag because on one hand there being great well animated shots sprinkled about, while on the other hand, there is repeated use of same animations from attacks and mechs getting shot and whatnot from start to finish. Second would be the fact that the Gundams take hits like almost no one's business and that the pilots are able to fix and maintain them by themselves 70% of the time in for a lot of series. There are also minor issues like plot armor here and there, Zech's motivation at the end and the Relina stuff early on. For the first part, I think is unfair to compare it to more modern gundam shows given the animation budget per ep. For the second, I feel the show gave enough info to point out that the pilots were waging a gorilla war and how they were doing it, something that most people don't have a decent grasp or missed those bits of info. Maybe a little more time should have been given to show the need to hide aspect and show a little more worry about it by the guys in private shots, but I fell it gave enough. I could have researched my points more, but I am finishing this just before work, so sorry if my points were not quite fleshed out or researched.

Zechs and the Tallgeas were my favourite. Still love the music. Wu fe was a confusing character, Quatra was the annoying one, Trieze was the most interesting

Gundam wing is one of the best gundam anime ( Shenlong and heavy arms are the best gundams ) Iron blooded Orphan close second Gundam seed I like parts of it I like the dinn mobile suit

Gundam Wing was my first and favorite anime series growing up, and it's still one of my favorite. I enjoyed watching the series subbed more. I loved the characters japanese voices and the story is more clear. One of the main complain I've seen many people talk about is that they don't understand treize, so I advise not to skip his recap episode 28, we get a pretty good view into his motivations. In the last part it seemed a bit weird to see une alive again but she isn't actually there. It is not a production error. it was more from an alternative perspective and as a reminder that she's in a coma not dead. The whole episode is kind of internal reflections so i don't take it as total 100% reality. Reading reviews surprisingly this part confused many people.

Do you think you could do a video on ZZ? I've never seen it but it seems that most fans don't like it.

Bro, please do that video on Treize

Are counting Quatre kills on the colony for his killcount and his mobile corp?

I remember loving the show until the White Fang story arc came out. I was like 'that's so unbelievable they're just stretching to make the show last 50 episodes'. Then I grew up and payed attention to global events and saw (with ISIS) 'yeah that all really happens all the time', so I had to take my White Fang hate back.

Wing isn’t very high on my list Gundam wise, but I do still like it. I fucking love its style. Gundam Wing has such a fucking energy about it.

Bro is litterally speaking my mind. Just finished Wing again havent watched it threw in years. Not to mention the best ms designs. I just love the OZ suits the Leo is the best looking grunt suit out there. The biggest miss was not showing the OZ commando unit fighting mobile dolls in Space Leos in the final battle.

OG Tallgeese is, was, and always will be my favorite suit in the entire Gundam franchise. The literal definition of "simple but effective". Second and third for me are Heavy Arms Custom and Virgo.

Char never had a go in the Nu Gundam, but Zechs figured out Wing Zero

Really it depends on which era of gundam fan you are. I'm one of the dwindling few that is old enough and had the knowledge to even be a Gundam fan in early 90's, seeing CCA in a bootleg VHS in 1990. I... like a lot of them... didn't like the alternative gundams in general at first. They've grown a lot on me over the years. We were pretty spoiled. Before Wing came out in Japan (long before America) we had the MSG movies, Zeta, 0080, 0083, 8th MS, considered some of the best Gundam ever made. Even G was considered a fun side project...we didn't think they would do more. For a lot of us Wing was a boy band show...and it didn't help that this was the era of backstreet boys and Nsync which 90s nerds like us were trained to hate. Watching it several times, I've learned to appreciate it a lot more, though I still find the protagonists insufferable. The designs are slick, it has a cool super robot vibe and the antagonists save the show for me. Among all the Gundam shows, it's still among the bottom...but that bottom is better than most shows out there of any genre.

Wing is very much my 2nd favorite Alternate Universe Gundam show with numeral uno being Iron Blooded Orphans. The fact that the storytelling, characters, and of course mecha designs are still fondly remembered speaks volumes of the show's quality. I'm still a hardcore UC fanatic through and through, but when it comes to what got me head over heels for the franchise that ain't 0079 or 0083: Stardust Memory, it's always gotta be Wing baby.

Tallgeese III > almost all Char suits besides Shiki and Sinanju (I know it's frontal, but he's a clone so /shrug)

Wing Zero will always be my favorite Gundam. It’s so awesome.

"A very Shonen-inspired Gundam Show". That's a perfect description of Wing, and makes it's successful Toonami run make even more sense.

Swinging Target from the soundtrack >> As far as mecha design for Wing yeah all sides have great suits vs just the good guys or bad guys.

Legit of a question, what are your thoughts on G Gundam, After war Gundam X, and turn a Gundam

Dude, thank you for dropping this!!!

The thing about the Mobile Suit in Gundam Wing is that OZ first stick to four main units. Leo, Aries, Pisces, and Cancer. Leo comes in two variants Space and Earth plus it's quite easy to tell which Leo is which as the Space Leo has a huge thruster on built onto the rear while the Earth Leo don'. Then later on one of OZ's tech genius develop a program that allow mobile suits to be piloted remotely with no pilots and that's when they introduce the newest mobile suit Taurus. The Taurus is transformable plus it comes with the mobile doll program, the program that was made to make human pilot redundant, so it doesn't need an actual human pilot to pilot though the program is still in the prototype stage so it still need a single unit that need to be piloted by a human. When the mobile doll program being perfected they created the Virgo mobile suit for the mobile doll program and this time no human pilot needed. The Virgo is bulky, but comes with six energy shield generator that can linked up to form a near indestructible shield that can absorb all incoming attacks from the front. Then in the movie the main antagonist's army use the Serpent mobile suits which can be use in both space and earth without any additional equipment plus they are super durable.

I love Gundam Wing I think it does have its problems but considering its what introduced Gundam to the rest of the world a very strong argument could be made that it's the most important one

What is there to defend? It's a shame Endless Waltz was shortened. Also Seed?, WFM? did you forget 00? Also Tallgeese and Epiyon are much better design wise - Actually everything is.

I'm sorry but Hero "I'll kill you" Yui kinda burned me out. But I do like Trowa and Duo.

26:57 Is this the mobile doll test scene? Why would they use live rounds for a test? Would they have to replace the test Leo every time the test failed. That'd be very expensive.

Thunderbolt will always be my favorite.

Can Bandai please release some HG and/or even RG kits of the Tauruses and Virgos? I love the design of those grunt suits as well as the Leos too, especially with the Dober gun variant shown in SRW Z2: Hakai and Saisei-hen.

The show suffers from extremely poor pacing. Like extremely poor. It’s hard to determine how long certain things take to unfold or how long was between certain events. That is my only complaint otherwise I truly do love the show. It had some of my favorite designs, especially the Epyon , I look forward to seeing more from u, and also I really would like to hear you elaborate on why you hate seeds so much because I’ve always found it to be one of my favorites although that might be because I just love suits the freedom lol

That's cool that you're a big fan of wing, I love wing even until today. Maybe it's nostalgia but after watching most of the UC shows I still come back enjoying wing. Wing was my first introduction to gundam and it made me think gundam + wings = awesome Gundams with out wings seem incomplete to me for some reason... But that's just my opinion My favorite gundam of all time is RX-79 grond gundam.

I enjoyed watching Wing in Toonami when I was a 15 year old but as soon as MSG and 8th MS team were released, the UC shows had me.

It is interesting to have a "AU Holy Trinity" I would say mine is: -My personal favorite work in the franchise Gundam Thunderbolt December Sky (Maybe if you do not count it as an AU I would happily raise Video game versions of Seed Destiny purely because I love Shinn in every video game he is in as somehow he just consistently is ascended to being a top tier character in universes where he isnt stuck with just Kira or Arthrun.) -Build Fighters (Mostly just season 1 but there are definitely great standout episodes, designs and the battlelogue episodes are fun enough.) -IBO (Personal favorite full series that isnt UC. The vibe, designs and the ending especially are so good albeit somewhat reached through a less than satisfying initiating event/ character.

Well said. Wing has some cons but has plenty of pros.

This was the peak of the "five superhero Gundam suits for main characters" mecha design. Subsequent series were watered down designs where you know they were trying to emulate the feeling from Wing & the franchise took a while to get out of that hole.