Hey Scott, dbd fix idea. remove 2 gens, but add 3 blocked ones that open once 3 gens are completed. prevents 3 gens, makes the patrol path for the killer in the early game shorter. next add perma gen time reduction every time a survivor is sacrificed to all remaining gens, so survivors still have a completion chance and it does not snowball so bad. and finally add the entity webs after the gate are open permanently that require like a few seconds channel interaction to "leave", this would allow killers to possibly interrupt escape and would force survivors to leave and not sit at the gates for 10 minutes. or give killers a mechanic to trigger the collapse instantly upon some channel in the basement or something, killing any survivors not out. etc. i feel like people run NOED to get survivors to leave.
I like the idea of an invocation that makes the killer hear footsteps or breathing near them at random intervals. So basically paranoid schizophrenia: The Perk.
Maybe they could also introduce a new item, like a candle, that you can find in chests, that either speeds up invocations or enhances the effect. There could even be different kinds of candles, like two that do what I said earlier, and some with other effects (off the top of my head: one makes it that gens cant regress while the invocation is going on, one gives survivors on hook a better chance of unhooking while invocation is going on, one gives survivors aura reading around basement while invocation is going on etc.) that might sound overpowered, but survivors would also need to take time to get candles and actually do invocations. some of these effects could tip of the killer that someone is in basement.
I like that idea! Candles could just be basically Toolkits for Invocations, with the add-ons having added effects. Increasing charges, increasing Invocation speed, revealing the Killer's aura whilst Invoking, and maybe if they turned the Broken status to a timer (say, 3 minutes), an add-on could reduce the base time the penalty is applied as well.
I think we need new items, along with side objectives. Surv ganeplay was much more fun when we had the side objective of the rift thing during this year's halloween event. Chests and totems are not worth doing for the most part since doing them actively hurts your team unless its a hex. I would say a pill bottle, where add ons give different effects. Maybe slight haste for 10 seconds or consume one to stop a failed skill check.
I 100% agree with this being a base kit thing. It would bring another dimension to survivors- a side objective that isn't tied to a killer power and isn't a time waster like chests.
@CrusaderLogan totems are barely used now unless it's certain hexs going on or someone has a totem challenge. Almost no one brings boons since CoH got nerfed and half the time boons don't even get used when up if they ever get going.
@@oscar3153 I think invocations are a cool idea. And with a tweak or two could be really good, but idk if it should be basekit or not. I like having other objectives available in the match tho for myself
@@shuroaya Except any new perk concept can be a “good idea”. Boon, Scurge, Teamwork, Hex they all suck and the execution failed horrible except Boons which even then had a horribly unbalanced life cycle and are now borderline useless
I like the idea of it being basekit better, because then it's not like the issue of boons where we only have one perk that counters them, and brining the perk is a waste if no survivors bring boons. It means that if you specifically want to counter invocations with a perk like territorial imperrative, you don't have to worry about wasting a perk slot because it is guaranteed that invocations are in play
speaking of that 1 perk to counter boons, didnt they change the initial 3rd perk of the new survivor because it only had effect if the killer brought mangled/a hex? something more common than boons
I think making it a base mechanic would be fun. You could add a few of them that do different things and you choose them by like sacrficing an item or something. Like putting a toolbox in the circle gives you the charges on gens, or a medkit gives everyone a buff to healing speeds. The drawback being it deletes the item like old franklins did. Something like that would be cool. If you wanred to give it some more depth you could also tie the power of the innvocation into the rarity of the item as well.
Making it a base kit thing would bring another dimension to survivor gameplay- a beneficial side objective. We only have side objectives that are tied to killer powers and chests don't count since they are usually a big time waster.
I'd just make it so the charges won't regress like bnps and then have the broken status effect go away after 90 seconds upon being downed. If it's still too weak after that you could also slightly decrease the time it takes to finish the ritual or have its progress not go away upon being interrupted/canceled
I like your idea more than anyone else's. The idea to spread the stacks to a 3 gen is perfect for survivors. (Horrible for killers) Survivors would 3 gen themselves on purpose, away from the killer shack. The idea is basically Survivors version of 3 genning but on purpose! Do gens on killer shack side of the map only. 3 gen yourself. Then sit in basement while 1 or 2 messing around playing tag with the gen. That don't help the stall situation but add to it. Also it takes no skill to use the perk in that fashion. 3 gen is supposed to be a punishment for survivors. Doing all gens on 1 side of the map only because stronger tiles maybe located there... COUGH COUGH KILLER SHACK. Not an actual strategy 😂
@SweetLeavesXbox1 Yeah id want it it to still be a nice reward but you don't want to buff it too much or in a way like Scott mentioned because it would either be too strong in a swf or would require heavier nerfs so the simplest change is just making the number not regress and then slightly reducing its heavy penalties
I really like the idea of giving it an amount of charges to spread among remaining gens tbh. Also yeah, Invocations are like half of an idea that I've always thought would be cool. Or at least, I always thought it'd be neat if survivors could perform rituals together.
This idea rewards survivors for 3 genning themselves. Also, it could be strat to stay on 1 side of the map. (Killer shack side) injured survivors would run the killer to the opposing side. (Where the 3 gen will be). This is basically the same as 3 genning but the survivors version. Which was done on purpose. Trying to get rid of the stall, not add to it.
Yeah, it's a great idea that sure as heck won't incentivize killers to tunnel more, because as soon as three gens are left and there are too many survivors, you either patrol the basement as well or you lose automatically to this perk.
Having the invocation perk be basekit would be a nice side objective, or alternative to gens. However, mechanically speaking, it’s not any different than doing a generator since you’re just sitting there (albeit in the basement, which is much more dangerous than being on a generator. While I wouldn’t complain if something like invocation was made basekit (since it would be some newish way to progress the objective), if they do add side objectives that progress the main objective, I’d like to see those side objectives be more than just sitting on a generator (that looks slightly different, or is in slightly different spot). One could argue that TCM’s escape options aren’t mechanically different, but I’d argue escaping via the fuse box tunnel is different than escaping through the gate blocked by the car battery. The car battery requires you to unlock several locks to get to it, then sit and wait to fix it (the length dependent on your proficiency). The fuse box requires you to also unlock a door and the fuse box, but you then need to find the fuse, do the little math mini game, and run back to the fuse box tunnel. As far as DBD is concerned, I’d be more than happy if something like the invocation perk got added as base kit, because it would be some slightly different way to progress the objective. But in its current state, it’s still just sitting on a generator at the end of the day, and I’d like the side objectives to at least feel different, even if they end up counting towards Gen progress. For example, what if survivors could look around the map for batteries, but then they need to take those batteries to the basement (or some other location)? Then when four batteries are delivered to a power switch in the basement, it removes a certain amount of charges (like a brand new part) to all gens. That would still be counting towards Gen progress, but instead of just sitting on a basement “generator” (the invocation circle), you’re doing some other kind of task.
The only issue I have with making it basekit is the Meg who ends up doing the ritual is going to loop straight into a wall after completing it and get tunnelled out as she’s never going to be able to heal.
i don't know about the base kit thing, But the what is probably the easiest thing to implement code wise would be to add the BNP effect to the invocation perk. And we know that Devs will usually go for the easiest change to make on the back end.
I really like both of the ideas. Spreading x ammount of charges between current gens and reducing total ammount of charges required to finish a gen. Please implement one of these
Can each survivor do an invocation separately? Meg1 does her invocation for two minutes and cuts 15 seconds, then Meg2 does her invocation for two minutes progressing all gens for a total of 30 seconds, etc?
I like the potential for invocations to tie into other side-objectives, too. If it were to be made basekit you could, for instance, rework Weaving Spiders to gain tokens every time a totem is cleansed, with each token providing +5 charges or reducing the cast time by 10% when the invocation is performed; totem cleansing was never particularly useful beyond potentially countering NOED and boons have made it even less worthwhile, it would be nice to see it gain additional relevence as an interconnecting optional objective.
I think making it basekit the way it is now and just adding skill checks that can boost or decrease the progress is a cool idea, i’d much rather have that over BNP’s on every gen, plus it gives territorial imperative an actual use without needing to be reworked
I hope they don't limit themselves to invocations being in the basement. They could be performed around map objectives, like the gen charge spell but it takes 30sec and only affects one or nearby gens. Or iconic parts of the map like a tower, ship, hill, etc, and each map has its own invocation effect. Also I wanna see a quick spell where you summon a magic eye that reveals all auras in a radius. Burn a spell slip and say some words, reload in a locker.
I think both suggestions combined would be great. Equally divy the charges based on the gens left AND make it remove the bar like BNP instead of adding regressable charges. We're spending 2m doing fuck all in the basement, which could get interrupted and if it does you have to start all over AND if you DO finish it you end up broken for the rest of the trial. I think having both of those suggestions is more fair than adding 15 regressable charges meaning you wasted 2m for nothing, just for the current meta to destroy it in an instant. On the flip side if it's basekit they could add something similar that would encourage killers to chase unique survivors instead of tunneling one guy out. 'Hook each surv once to increase charges needed to complete generators.' OR 'Collect the blood of 4 unique surv and deliver it to x location.' X location being some new POI or something like a totem pole/plague pool, etc. At which point all gens either regress over a set amount of time OR all gens just continually regress until survivors complete a counter to the killers ritual. That counter? Idk, I haven't thought that far yet lol.
I have an idea, what if it's kept as is for base kit and the perk changes it's effect to swap a random unfinished generator with a completed one furthest from it making it perfect for countering 3 gens by removing the 3 gen
This is very similar to Boon Totems. I REALLY appreciate the Devs trying new stuff to give both sides new objectives. However, I feel like it'll be what Boon Totems are in the future, where they're too situational or not powerful enough to attempt to use, even casually.
What if they kept it as a perk but as the gens got completed increase the charges you get. So like if you do it at 5 gens your applying charges to 7 gens so it’s 15 each, then it’s 20 at 4 and so on and at one it’s like a massive chunk so that the killer would actually have to watch out for it or risk losing the 3 gen if they have it. Cause yeah 15 is kinda negligible but if it’s like 55 or something that’s like instant panic mode
i have a idea for this perk: if there in example 3 gens remaining then invocation takes 1 minute not 2 minutes, etc another idea: you should not lose invocation progress THAT fast, it should take 3x slower, because if you in basement you already take high risk + broken status if invocation is done. You should have ability to hide in a locker for couple seconds to protect yourself if you hear the killer is coming, and then continue the invocation when the killer walks away
As much as I'd love to see an alternative way to play survivor and complete objectives, I don't think the invocation can really fill that role. Personally, I think it'd be better to have something else that can be done to aid generators like as many people have suggested before: finding items around the maps that can remove total charges from a gen (make it require less charges like a BNP) or give a speed boost to all gens. The invocations are a novel concept though, as were boons upon their introduction to the fog. I think thats a big reason they played it so safe with the perk, they didn't want to create another CoH on accident. To me, at launch CoH didn't really sound like it was that great. 16 seconds to setup a specific area to heal in 8 seconds was still on paper a waste of time when killers could quickly remove it but it ended up being extremely strong in practice because of totem RNG since totems are meant to be easy to find for survivors but hard for killers to "defend". I think weaving spiders can just be buffed to be a BNP for each gen and it'd be a usable perk. Definitely not meta and still rather gimmicky but not a detriment as it is rn with it applying broken for the entire trial.
Maybe a small rework to the Perk instead? Weaving Spiders: While in the Basement, perform an Invocation at the circle of salt for 60/50/40 seconds, doing so while grant you 15% total Gen Progress While holding the Gen Progress, press the active ability button 2 while repairing a Generator to instantly progress it with the amount gained from Weaving Spiders. If you are Hooked while holding the 15% Gen Progress, you lose it all This Perk may only activate once per Trial
I think it should be basekit AND be multiple use but on a cooldown. So if the killer is just sticking to gens you still have a way to make progress over time. The perks could maybe give some other benefit to doing it like fully heal everyone participating in the invocation or something.
Still, how good would it be if the 105 charges were split among all remaining generators? It would grow stronger as the game progresses, which would increase the risk/reward. But 2 minutes is a long time in basement and if someone has already been sacrificed, you could be really capping your team.
I like the idea of reducing the amount of progress that needs to be done, like a bnp. Also, just spit ballin other ideas for future invocation perks. Maybe one that speeds up gen repair speeds for a limited time, or one that slows gen regression. Idk. Again, just spit ballin. I haven't put much thought into these, so there is no need to come for my head.
Making progress permanent is a great idea. I can't wait for teams to abuse this by bringing 4 BNPs and this perk to basically create 65 second gens in return for one person having no mither. Or having the progress being split between 3 gens to punish killers for not tunneling and then having to patrol basement as well or just losing automatically.
It would be interesting if it worked as a BNP (you can decrease the benefit of the perk to 10% if it's too strong) and also the amounts of gens affected is tied to the duration of the invocation. So for example if 7 gens are affected it takes 2 minutes, but if it's only 3 it takes like 50s.
Bad idea. Again. Survivors will 3 gen themselves on purpose. Another stall tactic where Survivors just stay on one side of the map and only run to the other side while injured. Killers would have to drop chase 24/7 to stop the other 3 spamming gens on one side of the map. Killers that are slow or has no insta down would suffer from the stall strat. Trying to find ideas to get RID of the stall, not add to it. As basekit, really stupid idea. Survivors are already considered the Meta and don't need more free crap.
i just had a game in lerry where i had 2 basements in the map, maybe they plan to get 2 basements for the sake of those basement perks. just like they did with DH, people think we get bugs, while i disagree, i think they live testing stuff.
In low MMR where I am, i have gotten this off every single game (low sample size, probably 15ish games) - Not sure how good it is because I'm bad at the game but I love the feeling that if I finish my invoc before the first gen is done, I am guaranteed to at least /sort of/ have helped everyone who completes a gen. - Disclaimer: the phrase "I have helped" is * not * the same thing as saying "I have helped in the best way possible" or "There was no better use of that time &/or those resources", im not saying ts the best, pr even good, BUT it * is * fun & * technically * helpful, even if it is MORE helpful to the killer by wasting time. - It feels great every time an ally finishes a gen right before a killer arrives, knowing the killer would've kicked the gen & wasted more of our time. Just like any time a bad gimmick works lol. Again I'm just assuming it's bad because better players say so, in low MMR it might actually be good
If this is meant to be an anti-3-gen perk, you could make it so that you could do the invocation in the basement instead of one of the last 3 gens. Maybe for a longer amount of time. Just so the killer would have to protect the 3 gen and the basement but it would only be the last gen.
Hell, you could make it so that it works from the start if it takes longer. If gens start popping and the killer can't find anyone, boom they're in the basement. Geet'em.
I like the idea of invocations being a sort of "high-risk high-reward" type of perk. It doesn't need to "win you the game" but something that can feel meaningful, while also having drawbacks Example could be giving all players aura reading for things like other survivors/chests/totems/gens within 30m, but the killer gets occasional aura reading within 20m as well (1s reading every 20s)
I think they way the perk is should be a base mechanic, while the suggested changes could be perks to modify it (with them not stacking, and taking the properties of the person that started the ritual.
I feel like this perk would be a much better fit as if instead making you broken it gave the killer exposed or aura reading under certain circumstances
Def needs to be a perk. If it's like boons when they add other perks into game that also invocations I'm assuming all their effects will stack. No idea how strong those will be so I don't want that base kit :p
Agreed that it needs to be a perk. SWF can easily abuse this mechanic by 3 genning themselves on purpose. Which is suspose to be punishable by the killer and drags the game out. Problem is, the perk is rewarding them for doing all gens on killer shack side of the map. This adds to the stall problem as a reward. The killer will not be able to protect the 3 gen and the basement at the same time. So why play the game as intended? Just stay on killer shack and 3 gen yourself. Get free progression the survivors didn't earn by a stall strat. When any survivor is injured throughout the trial. They'll just run you to the other side of the map. Are we killers suspose to drop chase everytime to stop the entire side from being done in 2 minutes? I dont understand why people want to give survivors more and more free perks. They basically have 6 perks per trial as is with the free borrowed time and Deliverance. What happened with that? Survivors are know body blocking killers with a free hit. Which is BS.
In my opinion the issue of making "this type of perk" basekit is that you'd need to make every other following invocation basekit at the same time then. Otherwise people would go "why weaving spiders basekit but perk xyz not ermagerd" and then you might end up with something that IS too powerful. Unless you make a completely different interaction basekit for invocation and then have every invocation perk stack on top of that, similar to boon totems. Though I think the concept will be dead after the next 3 chapters anyway, also just like boons lol.
Honestly when they nerded hatch/keys a few years ago I was pretty dissapointed. To me that always felt like a fun side objective for having another way to escape when things were looking rough. Feels like BHVR has been hesitant on introducing new objectives because of all the complaints the hatch and keys recieved.
The problem with it being basekit is it’ll be super confusing for new player. Repair generators to escape or use magic to repair them seems really dumb
@@ScottJund ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) On topic I personally think it should permanently remove charges as well as be a basekit mechanic. You could increase the time it takes to pull off a bit to compensate it being basekit and then have the perk itself either lower the time needed to complete or have it add like 5 or so extra charges from the base. I do highly agree this would be a great thing to have in some form as basekit.
It would only be worth doing if it was a burst option. That either means it needs to be much faster, or it needs to give fewer gens MUCH more progress. Perks like pain res and pop simply existing, entirely negate any reason to use this perk in its current form, basekit or not.
I think you forgot that finishing an invocation makes the person that started it broken permanently which means you definitely don't want to do it at the beginning of the match no matter what, with weaving spiders not only you loose gen time but also make your chases a lot shorter, even with bnp effect instead I think the loss in chase time is not worth the time it potentially saves. Not only that, but I think that makes issues with future invocations because that would mean everyone would have to do their unique invocation on their own, as opposed to trigger all invocation perks when one is finished.
I really like the idea of x amount of progression split between the remaining amount of gens. But I will agree it hardcore disincentivize using it in the beginning good. I could fundamentally understand why they're being extremely cautious with this because they don't want another circle of healing problem. Sadly with all the new perks mechanics they've tried to introduce for survivor and killer the only one that's really stood up has been scourge hooks and even then they have their issue. Circle of healing pretty much single-handedly kneecapped boons. Like literally Boons could not be as strong as their initial ptb iteration because circle of healing was ridiculous and the weakening of boons made every other Boon pretty pointless. Scourge hooks - as I said above has been the best New perk mechanic added it's only issue is that RNG could screw you over if all the scourge hooks around one side. The perks are still strong but scourge hook perks are pretty much restricted by the RNG of the hook placement. Teamwork perks - don't even get me started on this. The two above were at least good initially or are slightly flawed this was dead on arrival outside of doing the adept or potential challenges there is no reason to put this on. Now we have invocations which is you stated could be a very good idea it's just the balancing of risk and rewarded needs a good looking at because right now cons are not worth the positives. ( I do hope the devs don't drop the invocation concept like they did with Boons and like they thankfully did with teamwork perks but I will say tweak weaving spiders until you find a sweet spot so you could have that as a template to work off before you start adding more)
Instead of 15 charges for every Gen, a much better alternative would be instantly repairing the Gen with the least progress, which would make it a MASSIVE counter to 3-gens
lol I’m imaging a killer kicking one of the last 3 gens, which is at 87.5%, goes down to 85%, then someone finishes meditation and the gen pops anyway.
“Umm actually 🤓” moment: They buffed the kick instant regression last update. It now immediately reduces 5% of the progress so in this scenario the generator would not pop. But it would be pretty goofy, even if that happened to me, to have essentially “repaired” the generator by kicking it
If this is the only invocation we ever get, it does need a buff to be of much use. Otherwise, the only thing needed for this invocation perk to suddenly be amazing is to have another invocation perk added that stacks. Having a second that stacks like two boon totem perks could easily make the invocations well worthwhile. Ideas for new invocations: seeing the killer's aura while they are in a chase, rebuild broken pallets, heal all other survivors one state, remove a hook state from each survivor that is on death hook, hide gen auras from killer, create a boon totem in the basement that slowly progresses all generators until broken (reverse ruin), demon trap that locks the killer in the basement if they go in there for a time (great idea if they ever add Supernatural IP)...
Giving the bnp effect would be too powerful, it would force the killer to search for the basement to try to stop it at the begining, and if they do so, they'd lose too much pressure buildup, but if they dont, then survivors get the full value of the perk.
When i first read the perk i thought it was implying 15 charges off all gens like a BNP instead of just 15 charges of current progress. I was so disappointed.
If we have other objectives I think moving things across the map like video tapes or xeno turrets as some sort of side object maybe like a breaker set to activate the gates would be cool. Something other than gens. If you made this a side objective it’s essentially just a reskinned generator.
Im fine with everything but the idea of making it like a BNP. The main reason why I dont like that as a killer is the potential of the perk stacking with BNP toolboxs. You spend the time to remove 15 charges from every gens and then the survivors can remove another 15 with BNP. That means 4 gens would have 30 charges removed and I think that just to powerful even if the perk cost them 2mins to do. Also how many killers you know who take the time to even check basement? Honest I hate basement as killer, I never go there unless Im force to. Im fine with the other ideas but I think making the perk a global BNP will be to strong when stacked with BNPs themselves.
I like the idea vs giving the last 3 gens all the stacks. Mainly bc the survivors would 3 gen themselves on purpose. Finish only the gens on the killer shack side of the map. If any survivor is injured, theyll run to the other side of the map while the other 3 are humping gens. So do I drop chase every chase because they leading me to the future 3 gen area??? Or do I never down anyone and protect my gens? Either way I'm losing 2 or 3 gens if the strategy is played correctly. Have to deal with killer shack or other very strong tiles the entire trial. Why even spread gens out? Do all gens by killer shack, 3 gen yourself, and punish the killer for not be an A tier killer. I hate that idea.
you talk about bloodlust? I feel like it is really bad and honestly almost never comes into play. I think if instead of losing it if you kick a pallet it should be the opposite. You kick pallets faster and retain bloodlust unless you lose chase. I also think it should build faster
I can't wait for them to maybe make one or two more that are worthless or do something else that already exists but worse and then never touch it again
I said this the moment I saw it, "one minor buff and it's broken". I don't think there is any way these are fair for both sides. It's either going to be too weak or too strong. Also, I think you really forget why the gameplay loop of TCM essentially failed. Victims have it so easy because there are multiple ways of doing things which makes it very hard for family to defend them all. Seeing as how it's already extremely difficult for M1 killers to patrol most maps in this game because most of them are massive, giving survivors another means to escaping isn't what I'd call a healthy design choice at this point. 5:53 sick dead hard there, btw.
