Is Andrew Lloyd Webber a Plagiarist? 

Robert Lee, Countertenor And Stravinsky’s Firebird 1910. About 14 minutes in.

just listened to it, about 15:20 in, and yea who is to say Pink Floyd did not rip off that piece

@@DeE-pt5lz because i don't think the members of pink floyd were trained classical musicians. I know rick Wright was classically trained but he was more of a jazz pianist.

Dude, its a chromatic scale. Not a big deal.

Give "The Pink Panther" another listen. It's a common chord progression, and people fill out the distance between chords chromatically a lot, it's a common melodic embellishment.

No that is Otto

He actually had to pay to the Puccini Foundation, so no, that's completely unfounded.

@@xxsaruman82xx87 The only time he was tried by the Puccini estate was for "Music of the Night" from Phantom of the Opera, and that ended with an out-of-court settlement for an undisclosed amount and a portion of further royalties. That being said, the only song ALW wrote that I remember being mentioned as directly being made for this opera about Puccini was "Memory" from Cats.

Puccini regularly quoted other peoples melodies creatively and in a sometimes humorous manner in his through-composed operas, always crediting the original artist, instead of straight up plagiarism! His use of the Star-Spangled Banner in Butterfly is pure comic genius, whilst ALW just borrows melodies from other, more original artists to create just another boring ABA structured pop song after another, without even crediting the original sources!

The song “Till I Hear You Sing” also sounds almost exactly like the aria “Recondita armonia” near the end

They don’t deserve a penny since they did not compose a single note. Besides, Puccini stole hundreds of melodies himself so I believe he wouldn’t have had Webber sued. It is simply not possible to create anything from zero.

yeah thats the only one I dont agree with.

The 8 bar standard doesn’t apply anymore. A judge can decide if any part of a song is infringing, if the part allegedly copied is considered very identifiable with the original. Most likely a chorus from a later song that has the same melody as a previously written song chorus would qualify. Sam Smith was sued for the chorus of “Stay With Me”being the same as Tom Petty’s “Don’t Back Down” and it was only 3 notes! It never went to court because Sam Smith made a settlement with Tom Petty and Jeff Lynne and gave them songwriting credit. I was really shocked, because like you said, I always believed there had to be a longer identical phrase to quality as infringement. Sam Smith said any similarity was unconscious. I couldn’t believe with all their money that Tom Petty and Jeff Lynne sued him for using such a simple and short phrase, but there you have it. I’ve heard of other cases of copyright infringement which went to court for less than 8 measures/bars and the judge ruled the essence of the later song was the same as the earlier song. If you think about how certain songs open (for example, think of “Yesterday,” “A Hard Day’s Night,” “Day Tripper” and many other iconic pop songs (like “Satisfaction” for another example), it makes sense. If anyone used those opening sung melodies or the guitar riffs in any part of their song, it makes sense a judge would likely side with the original songwriters in an infringement lawsuit. So the moral of the story is people need to be careful about timing and placement in a song if there’s an iconic song that uses the same melody with the same rhythm/timing and placement in their song. Consciously or unconsciously done, it can become a very costly similarity if the original copyright owner decides to sue. George Harrison learned this the hard way, but he ended up buying the copyrights to “He’s So Fine” so he wouldn’t have to pay the copyright owners of “He’s So Fine.” He got the last laugh, for sure. Puccini’s family did successfully sue Andrew Lloyd Webber for the second Music Of The Night melody and ALW agreed to an undisclosed settlement and a portion of the royalties in perpetuity. Whenever someone sings Music Of The Night, Puccini’s family gets paid.

@@justintime42000 Well, then it clearly depends on the country. Because at least in my country the 8 bar standard still exists. It makes me wonder, though - can there be a time limit in which the legal law action can be taken? Because I know that Queen have at least 1 song that uses actual opera intro, Vanilla Ice stole the bass line from Under Pressure (tho I think they did it legally), and many, many more.

Izzy G funny how other modern composers don’t seem to have that issue though

Stella Bella so composing should be crippled as to become a negative of all things already composed?

The Carpenters cover of Klaatu's _Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft_ has an identical _dah-dah-dah-dah-dahhh_ bassline near the end. As a musical line, it's hardly original, but Lloyd Webber really ought to know better.

​@@ravenlit Yeah, I do get that. I feel like it's kinda in the same tier as using the chord progression of Pachelbel's Canon. Sure, it's common (common enough to warrant its own Wikipedia article), but that's because there's so little that can come from charging for copyright infringement with individual cases.

And Shostakovich.

John Williams has Gustav Holst to thank for his career.

Usually I would agree on this, but it's the same rhythm and even the same time signature as Echoes. That's too similar to be a mere coincidence.

@@drmagus6805 I think lots of film composers owe more than a passing nod of gratitude to Gustav Holst, not just John Williams.

Specifically this ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-fPtU6w9yGOc.html

However, you are not Mendelssohn or Bach.

There is that one aria from ‘Die Tote Stadt’ which is just heavenly!

he ripped off that aria from Fanciulla

@@Jocelyn925 And it's one of my favorites, too.

Yeah he borrowed a lot and sometimes it was going too far

Tim McCarthy you need a better set of ears. They were all close/ exactly the same, some of his others were just either sped up or slowed down versions of the original. It’s all the same general composition though

Wait but Any Dream Will Do came out before Ripple

Wow Bach was a genius knowing the kind of music that would come 2 centuries after he lived!

Simple I-IV-V chord progressions this is true of but when they get a lot more complex and identifiable with one particular song, I do believe an infringement case can be won, but it would likely have to be a very specific chord progression longer than 4 chords. I wouldn’t want to risk it. If someone used the exact same chords in a chorus and/or perhaps the same guitar riff or bass line but the sung melody was different than the original, I would think the original song’s copyright holder could have a viable lawsuit. Imagine someone using the exact chord changes and the same timing as the song “Imagine,” for one example, and then changing the sung melody either slightly or throughout a new song, and it could be too close not to be considered infringing, if the original copyright owner decides to sue. People only usually sue if there’s money to be made.

It's still called plagiary.

Not to mention rock songs too. It makes sense 🤷🏻‍♀️ he still created an entire musical which is crazy

Tunes*

Right? Is it even plagiarism if he didnt copy the whole song? It just seems he took bits and pieces maybe. More like he was inspired by it.

It's the same rhythm and tempo and only a half step different in key.

@@joshuathompson8372 and one of the most common non-original musical ideas. With this logic Floyd ripped off half of Bachs catalogue and Stravinsky's Firebird 😂

Also Stravinsky's estate would then have to sue Pink Floyd, so it's better to let sleeping lions lie.

@ComaBerenices Very true. Even though I listen to a lot of classical music, I've never once heard Tristan und Isolde.

@@flyingpenandpaper6119 you obviously have never listened to classical music then. It’s literally in the top 10. It’s literally standard repertoire.

@@boundary2580 It is possible to listen to classical music without listening to opera, you know. But I concede, I do know that Tristan und Isolde is very famous.

@@flyingpenandpaper6119 to be honest I did not mean to sound so harsh. Sorry.

@@boundary2580 You didn't sound very harsh at all-at least to me :-)-no need to apologise. Btw, cute dog in the profile picture.

That bit is a cliche for "Something scary." It's been done a million times.

Wait, what are you saying? Actually, the family of Puccini sued him, also Ray Repp sued him as well. They heard the similarities (as we all do hahaha).

Yes, and he settled with the Puccini estate, which is practically an admission that he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

ohh I didn't know that! interesting, I still love the musical nonetheless haha

Pink Floyd's Roger Waters also aknowledged that Phantom Of The Opera was a rip off at the time, but he said they were generally against suing him (probably because he was a big name and it wouldn't be good for either party).

It is pure rip off. if all those people were alive and had lawyers filing cases against him, he would be ruined. there is a limit for "inspiration".. he has definitely crossed that limit by far.

Is that why Webber paid off the Puccini estate?

@@labicie Yes he's an unimaginative thief. I wonder he can live with himself having made so much money out of theft.

Both songs have a riff using bass at the beginning, but they have different melodies.

There are way more than 12 musical notes

Musical notes in the "Chromatic Scale" (repeats every octave) are: 1 - C 2 - C♯/D♭ 3 - D 4 - D♯/E♭ 5 - E 6 - F 7 - F♯/G♭ 8 - G 9 - G♯/A♭ 10 - A 11 - A♯/B♭ 12 - B Many countries have a "Pentatonic Scale" which has 5 notes as the name indicates (repeats every octave).

1dir yes exactly, in the chromatic scale, but that is just the most widely used in western culture

If only one part of the Opera would be similar to one song, then it's understandable. But it's quite obvious he copied and pasted 5 different songs into his creation.

Some comparisons here are far fetched. But believe it or not, the reason why I clicked this video was because I had just watched an interview where Lloyd Webber played a tune that sounded to me like a copy from Puccini's La Fanciulla del West, act I. I came here and I found out I'm not the only one to have noted that this one was plagiarism indeed. The reason why it is so and not merely "borrowing/ inspiration" is because you won't find any references to such inspiration. But I think Lloyd Webber's music is mostly tasteless and therefore I avoid it, so I wouldn't know for sure what they write in the playbills of his shows.

I just listened to it. Definitely something there.

Webber's a thief pure and simple. He's classically trained, grew up in a musical household and rips off the greats. Shameful.

neverless its still a funny Video!

You are right and Webber is skilled at putting it together but some of the thefts are so blatant and he doesn’t really deserve the praise he gets

Almost

Try "Think of me. Think of me fondly" and "I'm all out of love. I'm so lost without you."

しるひろおもむろ it's a coincidence. This is absolutely no rip off. Two different melodies and All Out Of Love is not a hard composition

well I don't see a youtube on Stephen Sondheim ripoffs. That could be because he doesn't rip off other people's music.

that PUccini was a cut and paste