Is Aptera's Efficiency Too Good To Be True? 🧐 

I'm also an engineer, and you nailed it!

I’m not an engineer, but I guess I think like one, because I had exactly the same immediate reaction to Aptera. It’s the thing in my life about which I’m most excited.

Assumptions are not data. No data on solar efciciency, no data of vehicle efficiency, No data if it will really withstand rain. What kind of engineer are you? An assumpted engineer?

@@vic321344 Since you ask, a (retired) Registered Professional Civil Engineer. My background is in geotechnical and hydraulics and hydrology. Obviously this means a wide range in many associated fields and the basics, of which you are referring. I look forward to the future test results on all the items you mentioned but until "official" results are determined and published we all have to rely on preliminary results obtained through testing the prototypes and their components and Aptera's honesty. So, for example, when I first saw the Aptera, I assumed a lower Cd than most anything on the road based on its aerodynamic shape, yet obviously not as low as those raced in Australia. Aptera states 0.13 and between their computer modeling and the wind tunnel tests I also assume that they are being honest with this information, rather than committing fraud. So in short, various claims by Aptera are probably pretty close to what we will find once "official" numbers are published. As far as assumptions in general are concerned, engineering requires making assumptions about real world conditions that you may not have any actual data on. Ask any geotechnical engineer if they know for sure all the subsurface conditions that they need to account for when designing a foundation for any structure, and they will typically state, they only know the apparent geology within the area of their borings. We must make assumptions about what is between each of those borings. My questions to those I worked with was simply "after the construction is complete, based on your design, can you sleep at night? Because that's all you get (for knowing "all the data"). Welcome to the real world.

@@Readerb86g So you assume Aptera is honest, while not keeping any promise since 2019? Assumptions have their natural limit. Called reality. Everything else is phantasy island.

I really like the Aperta design, but the motors scare me. I can't seem to get any technical info on them, including efficiency and speed torque curve. I expect the back EMF will really reduce efficiency at highway speeds. The faster you go the higher the back EMF. I would think that these losses would be more than a gearless axle.

Calcs based on what data? Asumptions?

@@vic321344 - Perhaps you didn't understand what you watched. He stated that we won't know the real-world performance data until owners have them, but we do know some things now. He based his calculations on *data* about the known size and the expected weight, power, etc. given by the company. His *assumption* was that each of these might be optimistic, so he modified them all to make them a little worse. Then he did his calculations. Even with these pessimistic assumptions, it looks like it'd be a terrific vehicle. With any luck, it'll actually be a little better than these assumptions allow. Time will tell.

Maybe you should have studied engineering. To know what you are talking about.

@@vic321344 After YOU made this statement "drag coefficient is the least important factor for efficiency under 90 mph" you have no leg to stand on Vic!

@tr-labs8320 If Aptera is half the weight of a conventional vehicle, it will stop in half the distance using the same braking force.

​​@@seeyouontheriver😂😂😂

Well said!

Yeah right…we’ll never see meaningful production numbers!

@@jezza6575 and you know that for a fact? Sorry you don't and are you aware of the massive amount of people that have contributed to this vehicle? Are you aware that literally everything is in place to get to production? Even if it doesn't get to "mass" production who cares as long as we get people on board and there's just tens of thousands (maybe even hundreds of thousands) of these on the road the world is better with it than without it and that's a fact.

AND it will get around peoples electric infrastructure gripes and worries which i am hype about. it will be a trump card to like half of peoples EV complaints of "what about...".

I really hope they will get it to market in 2024 - if they miss production start in 2024 they will probably go bankrupt, noone can keep up the R&D money burning for that long. As a development engineer I think I can spot their biggest problem: They are inventors/designers and they can't stop developing and optimising when they should be maturing and preparing a high quality production. Stop talking about alternative designs of cupholders and other silly details!!

I agree. At some point a vehicle like this will exist. Aptera is just the closest

I see Aptera clones as a total win. I'm sure Aptera has some patents to protect their seniority. But more small, light cars is good.

It was already copied once.... By Aptera, since they went bankrupt once already. 😂. Nobody is going to want a $30k deathtrap for two that is going to have all kinds of regulatory approval issues because it will be classified as a motorcycle, when Tesla and others will have 5 passenger normal EVs for the same or less money in the next year... And that's assuming Aptera can even build this weirdmobile in the first place.

@@killr0y The original founders of the company cannot "copy" the design from the board of directors that stole their business from them. They are the only real Aptera. Aptera will be far safer then Polaris Slingshot and other trikes that are on the market right now.

That design isn’t technically the same as the new one but yes I agree I believe the cd is accurate

@@TailosiveEV The original and new Aptera are more similar to eachother than either is to any other vehicle which has ever been produced. As a result the results can, at minimum, be considered reasonable validation of the accuracy of the current CFD simulations. My concern is that if the short range version is half the cells it will either be 210 miles of range or (preferably) the 45 kwh aptera will have 475 miles of range. When considering the math it is hard to make the models line up with the basic range assertions of the site without the LE (400) and 66 kwh (600) over performing by 10-20%.

@@TailosiveEV Yes, and they have made improvements since then. My bet is it will come in even lower with their PI builds.

@@MrRickMeister If NHTSA would get off its 🍑 and allow cameras all the standard will very quickly be for all cars to use cameras. Good for Aptera but also the entire industry. Think of the amount of gas wasted in the last 15 years at 3% of the energy used; if nhtsa standardizes with europe and allows cameras all vehicle makers will quickly switch.

Last year's measurments of Aptera in Pininfarina's windtunnel in Italy yielded even better results than a Cd of 0.13 for the Gamma vehicle. As it is not yet the production vehicle they don't want to publish numbers. While I don't think that they were seeing more than 5% improvment it is very likely that the 0.13 Cd will at least uphold on the vehicles that will be delivered to the customers.

But you have an inefficient hub motor.

I believe he mentioned that a couple of times in the video....

Would still love to see your data! Love all your e-bike videos

Aptera always mentions this, but the simulation software today for CFD, Impacts, and electrical performance is remarkably accurate. If it wasn't necessary to satiate the public's desire for real world results, car manufacturers would never truly need to do real world tests ever again. Go aptera!

I agree. Most people don’t know 10 miles per kWhr is good. Everyone knows 800-1,000 mile range is amazing. Talk about headlines!

Actually they recommend that for health reasons that you get out and walk rather than be sedentary for that long. So I would be able to do a long drive without recharging. I would just stop at the highway services for a coffee and pee.

Yes David. And maybe the chargers you stop for are vandalized or busy. Or you can drive through Death Valley at 120 degrees with your AC blasting or go car camping for a week w/o a gas generator!

@@dougbrittsan-yn9sl Yes that’s a valid point, but if you are driving through Death Valley you should take extra water etc before attempting. Though I think the sun levels would get you through recharging, even if only 40 miles per day.

I can’t wait for Out of Spec Reviews RU-vid channel to test the range on the 1000 mile version. That’s gonna be a long test!🤣

I suspect that your numbers are correct, and when people start driving them the true range will be higher, granting good publicity.

AWD tends to help. If model y range gets cut in half in winter that’s 150 miles of range. If a higher variant Aptera range gets cut in half then it’s 300-500 miles in the winter

Like most vehicles it I suspect this will come down more to tire selection and driver skill. Plenty of good drivers in rwd sports cars with appropriate winter tires will cruise right by a Subaru in a ditch the driver didn't replace the tires on or know how to drive. I see no reason Aptera would be any different, if you know how to drive in snow and keep good tires on a car it'll get you there just fine. Keeping in mind snow means cold and cold means some reduced range for EVs, that shouldn't be a problem for most unless yer running yer car empty every day.

And once we get fusion, things will be revolutionary and sell at a way faster scale than anyone is anticipating. Same if once christmas and easter are at one day.

@@vic321344 Fusion?

True!

Love to see your data!

Apterra 2.0 will have pedals as well for when is claudy

Yes, at higher speeds the delta will increase since aerodynamic drag is exponential as speed increases.

You ordered a vehicle when not even a roadworthy production prototype exists? Genius.

Glad it was helpful!

yeah, the fact that the price-per-mile is going to be insane, I am certainly looking forward to it~ Could potentially pay for itself over time, compared to ICE.

The EPA uses the energy in one gallon of gasoline (33.7kWh) and divides it by the kWh/mile of the EV to calculate mpg-e. For the Aptera that is: 33.7kWh ÷ 0.10kWh/mile = 337mpg-e.

Yes, they've gone up very steep inclines for extended periods. Only reason they struggled in the CNBC interview was the coolant tubes weren't hooked up on the motors. It's a show model not a production model

I placed the 42nd order placed for an Aptera - but I was never promised a production order number - only a special edition model, which I still expect to receive. The quality of the vehicles they will be delivering is FAR above the vacuum resin infusion bodied vehicles they were showing when they were introduced. I think the delay is well worth the increase in quality. The glass covered solar panels is another huge plus.

@telerye: Do you mind telling why you canceled?

@@MalteForstat Sure. It's a mix of a few things, in no particular order: 1. Multiple poor showings in media test drives. I've worked with pre-production machinery and software. You just don't let the public have access to something that has the possibility of failure, and I just can't overlook the oversight on not having systems enabled on what should have been a huge day for shoring up investments. 2. Unclear delivery timelines. Constantly missing/shifting deadlines mean that this purchase is not going to happen on a timescale that works for me. I've worked for startups. I get delays, but I need clear communication. Don't claim a year and then need multiple. 3. Unclear pricing & delivery tied to investment tiers. Having a launch edition product - the 400 mile est. version - only at launch I think is fine. What's less fine to me, is prioritizing the queue around dollars invested into the company (in the of 1,000s of dollars). To me this reads like these initial vehicles will go past the estimated prices and basically want those purchases locked in, otherwise the stock price drops and you're out on both sides of the equation. In the end, these items combine into a value proposition where I found it more economical to put solar on my property (almost 20 months ago now) that powers my entire house - and then some - so I can buy whatever car works best for me and my family instead of a niche car that might come out. And if it does , it would still be a long time coming even if I went for the supposed "launch version" as I won't be throwing $ into a stock purchase. Do I still want to see solar mobility take off? Absolutely! I hope Aptera is incredibly successful. I just don't see our timelines matching up for the next few years.

If recall the original AWD configuration was going to use 3 50kW motors for a combined 150kW. It could do 0 to 60 in 3.5 seconds. The front wheel drive option used two 50kW motors up front. I believe they had Elaphe Motors optimize the motor to better match their application to improve the efficiency. I think the new motor is ~42.7kW. So the 3 motor AWD configuration is 128kW and the two wheel front wheel drive configuration is ~85kW.

Chris Aanthony's last company uses LFP battieries. He knows as much about them as anyone. The BMS protects the battery pack from an unhealthy charge level. LFPs would add enough weight in comparison to decrease efficiency and they would also perform less well in Iowa, where I live. The range would be shorter and there is no certainty they would have better life, because they would be more loaded in everyday operation.

Musk does not only tweet, he produces. Thats the difference.

Nah I’m going into it expecting 8 miles per kWh

@@TailosiveEV I keep going between 8 and 9. Whats wild is that batteries in the future are to take other cars to the 500 to 700 range. which will make the Aptera go to 1500+ miles range. Good stuff ahead.

A blow out, you think car tire are like retread truck tires. Tires don’t, BLOW out anymore!

@@timsmith6815 you really said these words WOW. So objects in roads never happen? Sorry to tell you tire blowouts still happen.

Tim, my tire blew out. It got hit by a meteorite during that last earthquake.

Because the wheel covers go up and down with the wheel you will just be driving on your rim if you drive far enough to completely destroy the tire. The wheel covers are higher off the ground for production than on the prototype in the video. You are right on the prototype kill the tire and you could damage the covers.

Pretty sure anytime its daytime, the radio will be powered by the sun.

This has been discussed in many videos, and they will be doing crash testing fairly soon. The fact that it’s a monarch chassis made from carbon composite should give you confidence that it will be relatively safe. They’ve already shown that the roof crush rating is higher than any production vehicle.

Crash testing coming this year. I would watch it closely. Front on collisions look good in theory but side collision protection may be weak. It really depends on if the new body materials perform as expected. The Aptera will be WAY safer than any motorcycle, or even a trike like the Polaris Slingshot. It may even be safer than small smart cars. Again, it depends on if the side airbag protection is needed.

​@@richardryley3660yep, I expect that side impact may be an issue due to the lack of side airbags coupled with how close an occupants head is to the side wall/pillar in the cabin. I don't think it'll stop the rollout of the vehicle since it's classified as an autocycle, but may give the naysayers some ammo with their view of it being unsafe sharing the road with 5k+ lb trucks/SUVs. Hope I'm proven wrong!

@@AverageJoe928 Unlike most cars, Aptera has a passenger safety cage protecting the passengers, and the seats have been moved inboard in the production intent vehicles, compared to the prototypes. Also many side impacts may first hit the front wheel pod, lessening direct force transferred directly to an occupant.

@@AverageJoe928 I am hoping side airbags are an option in later models. It will add weight, of course, which will reduce range a little, and it may be difficult to fit the mechanism inside the side pillar. So they may need to develop some new technology. But I would like an option for those who want more safety. That said, a lighter vehicle will bounce off the other vehicle in a collision and reduce the G-forces. I'm hoping that the crash tests show that a side collision will be survivable with just seat belts and and the strength of the passenger cage. I also don't know if this is common knowledge but there are structures in the door designed to sacrifice themselves to absorb the energy. It's not a crumple zone (not enough room) but it's supposed to work the same. We will have to see if it works as well as the simulation.

Yes, eventually.

The original vacuum resin bodies had RHD designed. I don't know about what tooling changes will be required to provide UK compliant models with the carbon fiber/SMC. It is likely to be a function of funding.

The Aptera motorcycle cannot be registered in UK. It is too wide.

I see greater than 6 mi/kwh in my 94ah 2017 BMW i3 REx under ideal conditions. But under ideal conditions, every other vehicle would also be exceeding its EPA rating. My i3 is EPA rated at 118 mpge which converts to 3.5 mi/kwh. If the Aptera is EPA rated at 10 mi/kwh, under ideal conditions it will likely be able to get 15 mi/kwh. The percentage gains available for the Aptera might be more limited since it is so aerodynamic, so avoiding higher speeds might not do as much - but this is actually a good thing.

Thanks to the government for picking winners.

motorcycles dont get tax credits.

Stacking the odds against Aptera because their data hasn't been proven yet, and they still pulled through by the end of the video. If my math was wrong it's wrong in Aptera's favor

Aptera has 1 windshield wiper which is smaller than a single model 3 wiper

@TailosiveEV I would still buy one just for their attitude toward the right to repair. It is getting ridiculous with $40K for a Rivian fender bender or $60K for EV6 battery replacement.

Aptera is citing EPA highway ratings now. An Aptera won't do that of course at interstate speeds in any conditions, but neither to ICE vehicles. I expect that here in Iowa my LE vehicle will still make it to Kansas City or Des Moines on a single charge even in winter on the interstate. That will be enough for me. If I needed more range, that will eventually be available.

This first Aptera was never presented as anything other than a niche vehicle. What is certain is that the niche is FAR larger than Tesla's first vehicle, and the acceleration is better than the first Roadsters, even though billed as an "economy" vehicle.

My point was in the situations where Aptera gets 8, my model 3 would get 3.5

Thanks so much!

I drove one on this channel. We went over several speed bumps with no problems. Its ground clearance is almost the same as my model 3 at 5.2”

I have ridden in a prototype. The clearance is better than with my Honda.

He does in longer less edited videos like test drives, but the sit downs his editing software that he uses that clips them together, pause would be nice the videos sound like some one that had way to much coke and cant stop talking.

We can… 60kw which is plenty for a 45kWh pack. Tesla rarely hits their numbers too but the point is Aptera would still be using less than half as much

This is why they have a page on their web site so you can determine what kind of photons are expected based on scientific data. It is an average, NOT the best case as you stated

I think the solar range will depend more on geography than local seasonal changes. If the year is sunny 75% of the time then you will be generating full power 75% of the time, while if it is sunny 25% of the time, you will still generate half or better of your power 75% of the time. The length of the day isn't important because for every day that the sun goes down two hours early, it will go down two hours late six months later. If anything, you will be gaining sunny days in the summer, while losing overcast days in the winter when you aren't making that much anyway. I live in Texas, but I still expect to be able to keep an Aptera charged in the summer, while in the winter I may have to keep it charging on 110 in the garage. Are you planning to be driving at 100 mph? I don't know what you mean by fast charging, unless you're talking about the slow rate. Remember, you only need.10 kw per mile. You can put 100 or 200 miles of charge on it, and drive home. You won't even be able to charge it for a full hour, because it will be full!

The estimate is based on the AVERAGE daily solar exposure in San Diego CA.

The main thing you'll be able to do in a model 3 vs an Aptera is carry more than one passenger. What else did you have in mind?

@@GoClimbARockEh again, this is not a criticism of the Aptera and more of the point on this video. I like the Aptera for what it is. Which is not a Model 3 or any other four doors replacement for most people. Of the top of my head: Child car seat Carry 5 adults Put a roof rack and triple your carrying capacity. I do this on my Model 3 Even without the roof rack carrying capacity for larger items particularly when lowering back seats

@@CarlosBorroto fair points. Yeah it's not the one car for everyone, and I can't see it being the only car I own. But it will meet my needs for the vast majority of my driving

Why would you doubt that it could't go 100 miles? Do you know that we have technology that works right? The Gamma has been driving around for a while now. and I don't know what size battery they have in the car, but if all the motors and cooling system works, then all you really need is a battery that will have it go 100 miles. But you need to see it? Really?

The 1000 mile version with a 100 kWh battery is the last model that will be produced. Aptera says that all the batteries will be the same length and width, but it height of the battery pack will increase with the longer range versions. Aptera will use 21x70 mm cells for the 250 and 400 mile versions, 21x90 mm cells for the 600 mile version and 21x120 mm cells for the 1000 mile version.

Yes I need to see it. I'm not saying it can't travel hundreds of miles but I'd like to see some evidence of this. Why not just film an Aptera on a long journey?

@@rw6262 Because it's a waste of time? If any EV can do 100 miles do you need to see a video to prove that it can? Do you do this with everything? How do you know the meat you're eating is from a cow or from a giraffe? Do you need to see that? We have technology that the Aptera is using that's proven. Batteries and electric motors. These things aren't new.

Production Aptera's do not exist yet. The test versions (alpha, beta, gamma) have been using smaller engineering test batteries so far. There is no reason to think that they will not be capable of travelling hundreds of miles once the production batteries are available.