IS KINGDOM COME: DELIVERANCE RACIST? - Dude Soup Podcast  

Hello everyone! This is Lawrence - I produce the podcast and wanted to provide a bit of commentary on this week's episode. I can totally understand why some of the beliefs expressed in this episode would bother or annoy you. I won't speak on behalf of the beliefs of others; it's not really my place. I see my role as being an informed moderator, and I hope I did that well enough in presenting alternative viewpoints and challenging questions. If this isn't the kind of content you want to see, or the kind of commentary you want from us, I totally get it. As a producer, I have to balance making universally liked, fun content (poop stories) with content people will click on (RACISM). Ideally we can find a nice middle ground where we can be funny, interesting, thought-provoking, and maybe even educational. I think we've been getting better at it, even if many feel this particular episode was a misstep. I hope the past few weeks' worth of episodes speaks more for the current state and future direction of the show for you than this episode does. I always appreciate your time and willingness to spend time with us, and as such try to incorporate all feedback I see. TL;DR Please don't stop listening to this podcast because of this week. It won't all be like this!

People need to stop calling everything racist. It takes away from things that are actually racist.

Yes...everybody at Warhorse Studios all met up in a conference room. Someone stood up and said, "NO FUCKIN BLACKS!" they all preceded to high five and made Kingdom Come Deliverance.

If you want a game full of black people in the Middle Ages, have it based in the Congo not the Czech

To say that the white mans story has been told completely baffles me, I'm Irish, Spent all my life here we have or own culture, stories and way of life. My skin colour may be white but that doesn't mean i have anything in common with someone from Russia or Estonia or that our country's share the same stories simply because we share the same level of pigmentation. How many movies/Games/novels have been based on the great Irish famine? Where well over a million died of starvation, while others were forced to build roads that led to nowhere for scraps of food to feed their starving children, I see very few. Its stupid to use such a wide brush to paint an entire colour of people.

No, this isn't racist, not even close. Buggy on consoles, yes, racist, no

Admittedly, I'm only 26 minutes in, but as someone who is coloured... Man, their arguments are annoying. James saying that because it's a video game, claiming to be historically accurate isn't credible? He literally says "Pick your battles" and obviously, in terms of world and atmosphere, they did. They were also making a game, so they chose to use video game systems for actual gameplay, they made the characters speak modern English, they decided not to fight those battles. It's all just ridiculous to me.

“Why be informed when you can use your feelings as your facts” -Philip Defranco

Should there be a game set in (pre-colonisation) Australia with random white people walking around? Fuck no! Historical accuracy should *not* be sacrificed if the goal of the project is to historically accurate. Also, James' point that "you press A to jump" is completely stupid. Do you disregard books and their value because you have to turn the pages to interact with them? I'm sorry but some of the shit said in this episode really pissed me off, and I'm sure that James will disregard the detractors of his "arguments" as racists or whatever. Ignorance is bliss, apparently...

Less than 1% of the *modern* Czech Republic is black. What makes anyone think that 600 years ago it was somehow *more* black?

James, when they speak of realism they mean it in a sense that it is centred around the story and people, not around gameplay mechanics which have no connection to realism because its a fucking game.

i'm black but come on why does everyone complain about everything (if people are actually complaining about this). It's 100% the devs choice to make what kind of game they want, how could you force someone to put black (or any other race for that matter) in the game. I remember playing sleeping dogs, was a great game, but i don't remember anyone complaining there were too many Asians lol. Sidenote James should just stop talking like he knows everything.

"Better shoehorn in some non-white people so those minorities will feel engaged" seems like bigotry of low expectations, James. I think that most people can enjoy a game without having to play as somebody of their race. Maybe if we can can stop with racial headcounts we can actually progress and not regress. Also, it's pretty shitty that you dismiss Czech culture as some generic "white euro" history.

To respond to James, there's plenty of us who value historical accuracy in videogames even at the "expense" of inclusiveness. I'm Mexican and I think I'd be upset if this game allowed Latinos to be in the game. It wouldn't make any fucking sense to see a Mexican or any other Latin American in this time period. Asians wouldn't make sense either, and Africans could barely be in the game accurately. I'm glad the devs chose accuracy. Not every game needs to be inclusive just like how not every game needs to be realistic and accurate to real life. This is a historical game though; if you want unrealistic but inclusive games, go play Skyrim.

Its based on 15th century Bohemia. It wasn't a very diverse place.

For once I completely agree with the comment section. And I completely disagree with 90% of the points made in this podcast.

Well hey guys. Judging by all the discourse in the podcast if I ever create a game based on Vikings in the 13th century I'll be sure to throw in a black/asian/latino man/woman/gender fluid merchant if a historian says one stopped by to sell a fuckin kumquat.

If this was a samurai game taking place in japan, would we be talking about the lack of white or black people in the game?

No. *Roll Credits*

"...not thinking forward while making the game..." a game set in the past

54:19 Im pretty sure Czech and Hungarian societies still exist guys you might want to check a fuckin map once in awhile

James..........

I don't think there was a whole lot of Medieval European black people, just saying. Maybe if this game took place in mid Africa with a bunch of white people there would be an actual conversation to be had.

Got to love Americans lecturing Europeans on their culture and views just because they share a skin colour. Bet they couldn't even find Czech Republic on a map....

I am a hispanic person. Whether that matters in this argument is up to you. But, I have never understood the whole diversity/inclusion argument because, to me, the public does not have the right to tell a creator what to do with his or her art. Even if the art is a "ps4 game", the creator still has the freedom to be as realistic or unrealistic with it. Thus, when someone says that a game should be more inclusive that just seems disingenuous to me. I value the creator's vision above anything else. Even If someone wants to be whole heartily racist/ offensive with their art, that still has the right to at the very least exist. However, we as an audience don't have to consume it, support it, or even knowledge it. The market is so diverse that we can find examples of genuine 'diversity' and 'inclusiveness', works of art in which the creator actively made the choice to be progressive.

I sure love when Americans say what culture a country in 15th century Europe should have.

There's nothing like listening to a bunch of Americans slant a foreign indie developer for wanting to represent their nation in a historical setting through a game which doesn't exactly align with 21st century US social views... Edit: 21st century California social views...

Now I remember why I stopped watching the podcasts.

Bit of a problem with James' reasoning: Pressing "A" to jump is essential, small ethic groups who may or may not have been present is not.

ill save you an hour: no

Is Funhaus racist because there aren't any black employees? No, that's a ridiculous argument. You guys are really scraping the bottom of the barrel, huh? And what's with the argument that video games can't be taken seriously? If you can't acknowledge the hundreds of video games renowned for incredible gripping stories and subject matter, I don't know how you can exist in the industry.

James is extremely uninformed and close-minded on this topic. If you aren't interested in a historically accurate game, then this game isn't the one for you, just don't play it. Why try to force creators to cater their creations, which they probably consider their art, to your specific tastes and morals? Just move on.

It's a real American thing to do to boil down other countries nationalities and history to just 'white' because its what they do over there. Its not how it works. Finland is not the same as Czech which isnt the same as England, the world isn't just black and white and white isn't all the same. I really enjoy yours guys content, and i'll definitely never stop watching just because of someones personal take on the matter, but I really do feel James was fairly misinformed on the subject and only spoke from where he lives and not the context of the game .

Remember when journalists called Witcher 3 devs racists, because there were no diverse cultures in the game? Here we go again. Game is based on ACCURATE model of XVs century EUROPE. You can't deny the fact that in those times black people (or any other cultures than Caucasians) were unlikely to be in Europe, if so, mostly as slaves. Americans raised on the culture where you have to be politically correct towards everything and everyone, has absolutely no idea how Europe function. Calling a game racist for being historically accurate is the lowest you can go. World doesn't end on US alone, I recommend to check up cultural differences between EU and US throughout the centuries

If you want a historical game why would you throw people in just to include them, is that not literally having the "token person of color" is that not more insulting?

"If you want to make a historically accurate game, fuck off, if you want a historically accurate book, sure." Wow, James sure holds a low value of Video games as a medium. It was not difficult to understand the hate for this episode.

i gotta strongly disagree with james here. Just because it’s a video game doesn’t mean it can’t be historically accurate, just because you press a button to do an action like take off your armor and such doesn’t make it any less valid than a book or anything it’s just a mechanic of the game, extreme realism and historical accuracy are two very different things. Personally if there was a game based in africa before european conquest and colonization i would literally have no problem with not including a single white person. But of course that’s james’ opinion and he is obviously allowed to have one, still like you guys obviously just stating mine as well.

No. Also isn't Henry the main character faced discrimination. He was a blacksmith son, he was at the bottom of the totem pole. Can't be a knight, can't be a squire cause he's not part of some royalty. Some questioned his command to give him task cause he was a nobody. Also it show how female were just like for sex, breeding and working in the farm. No equality. This game was just showing the majority historical accuracy based on gender, race and even if it were white/European during that time, it was still based on who your family was or how much money you got.

You guys really have to understand that the rest of the world does not have the same sort of race issues that the US does. Criticising a Czech team that - like a lot of Europe - doesn't view race-relations in same way that an American team would is absolutely unfair. Wrong, even. I won't go into all of James' - and I hate to say this as a huge fan of his - frankly galling statements regarding whether or not a game should strictly adhere to history, or make leniencies in order to be more inclusive because others have already made more than adequate responses here in the comments. But I will say that I believe that historical integrity should never be lost in the name of "diversity", especially in this case, where the developers have said from the outset that as much as possible about this game was going to be historically accurate. History is not as diverse as we would like; actively trying to abridge - or in this case, actively alter - how history is portrayed in order to better fit our current ideas about inclusion is, in my opinion, disingenuous at best, and insulting at worst. I love you guys, but I think you've really got it wrong on this issue.

34:10 Supporting Gamergate does not make you an extremist. It is okay to support Gamergate. Gamergate was never pre-dominantly “Alt-Right”. It was always about holding games journalists to the the same standard we would hold the old media. It was always about ethics in games journalism, and it still is.

I fully stand by Warhorse and the awesome game they created. This "controversy" is ridiculous and makes absolutely no sense. As far as I can tell, none of them know anything about this game or the history of what this game is based on, yet they are making such strong remarks against this small company taking on a very ambitious project with very little basis besides a comment made by a historian, whose comment was so minor. Sometimes, maybe there would be some travellers of color in this area. Wow, that is such a big deal...also stop with the crap about wanting a customizable character who can be of a diff race or gender. It is stupid. Creating a game where you can place any character is far more difficult, and it takes away from the story of the game massively. Also it makes absolutely no sense for your character to be of color, or for your character to be a woman.

I line up with funhaus on most of their opinions, but when it comes to the PC culture topics I usually feel like they take it too far. The guy (and team) is not a racist because he made a historically accurate video game set in medieval Europe that consists of a ton of white people, just as he wouldn't be racist if he made a historically accurate video game set in medieval Asia that consisted of a ton of asian people. James talking about "inclusion" in a historically accurate medieval Europe video game is fucking laughable. You're basically asking him to purposely destroy the integrity of his vision and project for the cause of not hurting some extremely out of touch people's feelings.

When the joke title apparently isn't a joke title

Every time these guys get anywhere close to politics, they end up making me disappointed. I wish they'd just ignore these kinds of things, it's just an echochamber.

I'm really surprised and disappointed with this podcast (especially James). They have absolutely no knowledge of this game or of European history. They saw an article talking about the game being racist so they automatically took its side being the good white American SJW's they are.

I'm a black female and I don't see anything wrong with the game. If I want to feel "included" I'll go play a Bioware game.

Slavs are an ethnicity, that is underrepresented or misrepresented in American media. So instead of making us change it, try to learn something about us.

Czech doesn't have racial issues like the US... or any PC/SJW issues at all. An only notable minority are Vietnamese people (East Asia). Let's not forget that a Czech studio had developed Vietcong (killing Viet soldiers in Viet war). Vietnamese nor Czechs did not complain at all... it's just a game. That's why Czech developers don't bother with "representation and PC" as much as other developers.

34:10 If your source of info on gamergate is polygon, kotaku, RPS or whatever else, then you've been spun a narrative designed to smear GG. I was in a ton of GG threads on 8chan, this was ground zero for discussion and organization of GG, the general consensus was never to "do shitty things" (I guess he's talking about harassment), it was never like "hey fellow white guys let's go harass women on twitter". It was indeed about ethics in journalism (I'm not meming) and encouraging developers to create the games they want to, not the games a vocal minority of SJWs would like.

Americans have such a weird view on race and diversity. Saying that people from let's say the UK and from Czechia are in any way the same just because they're both white is insane. "The white man's tale has already been told" is a pretty racist thing to say.

Ok, so I hope Lawrence, and hopefully James too, reads this as I want to make you see why having Black people (not people of color in general) in Bohemia was almost impossible in a more civil discussion without the "No" straight away: Let's make something clear, the developers never denied the existence of Black people in Europe. Nobody should. They existed 100% (even though it was primarily in its Western part and there were little of them). They denied the existence of Black people in Bohemia. People of Color definitely existed in that area: Turks and Cumans for example (needless reminder that Black People aren't the only People of Color). There are three main reasons that hurt Black people's chances of getting into Bohemia: Bohemia was not part of the Silk Road (which was a great source for migration). (Which by the way the Eurogamer article wrongly affirms that it was part of, that article was very sketchy). Bohemia banned slavery at the end of the 10th century. So when the European slave trade started, centuries later (in the 16th) and the Portuguese, French, Dutch...etc brought Black slaves there was no way they could get into the country, not legally. Bohemia was a very isolated place and very hard and dangerous place to travel to. It was miles away from trading posts (since most trading happened by sea). Nor was best place for immigrants to live there, they usually tended to immigrate to other prosperous places like France or Germany as it benefited them more. There were primarily three types of immigrants during that time: Turks, Slavs (used as slaves) and Jews (I believe even Asians but later). The ideia of saying there are no "People of Color" would be entirely wrong, but the game includes Cumans, Turks and Jews (who were not considered White at the time) so that isn't an issue. But saying there were not Black people is not wrong at all and entirely possible. Not every place had Black people. History isn't that black and white, there are other hundreds of kinds of ethnicity in this world and some that were there in their place. To this day you can live in those countries (Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia...etc) and spend your whole life without seeing one due to there being so few. Either way, even with all that said, this game takes place in Rural (the keyword here) Bohemia, in just 16km² to be precise. The chances of seeing a Black person (if there ever were any, even just 5 or 10), due to low numbers, would be basically none. It's not inaccurate.

It's one-sided discussions like this that are the reason this game sold so well and will continue to do so well.

Completely disagreed with James. Just because "You press A to jump", that doesnt discredit Video games as an art form. These developers set out to create a historically accurate game, and theres nothing wrong with that. Seems like (at least to me) James is mocking game developers who take the video game industry seriously, and that Games should only aim to be "fun" and nothing else. I think its a very close minded way of viewing the video game industry. That would mean that games like Journey, Unfinished Swan, Hellblade, Gone Home, What Remains of Edith Finch, and many others are fucking stupid and their developers are dumb for trying to make a game that aims to tell an emotional story because it doesn't satisfy James' definition of "fun". Theres nothing wrong with disliking these games, but these video game developers have every right to make the game they want to make.

Definitely isn't racist Truth be told, I don't particularly really understand the absolute necessity for diversity, so long as you aren't discriminating, what's the big deal? You shouldn't force someone to have a Black person in a game, the same way you shouldn't force Black people out of a game. Diversity may have a role in the real world, in the business place etc, but I fail to see what purpose it serves in a video game?

As a gay man, I am for the first time ever disagreeing with James. Including gay characters just for the sake of having gay characters doesn't make me feel better. If anything, it cheapens the experience to the point where I actually get hurt more than if there were no gay characters at all. I personally don't find it any different here. If the developers were to add characters of color just for the sake of having them there, it doesn't do any good. True inclusion would be having those characters be part of the story and add value to the experience, not just show up for roll call. The Ballad of Gay Tony from GTA 4 is a perfect example. Tony's sexuality wasn't just for the sake of having a gay character, it was a part of the story that was pivotal to the plot. I just don't see that happening authentically in Kingdom Come: Deliverance in a way that would make the game better or make the inclusion worthwhile.

Next week on dude soup: "IS BLACK PANTHER RACIST!?!?!?" FOR ONLY HAVING 2 WHITE GUYS WHAAAAAT

Interesting. Four people who know largely nothing about the background and history of the game have extremely strong feelings on an aspect of the game....that requires fairly good knowledge of the background and history of the game. There's so much that's wrong and blissfully uninformed about that podcast I'm at a loss. As a Czech native I'm delighted we finally have a game about my country, my history and my culture and that so many people seem to enjoy it. And your feedback is....why haven't you made a game about the American culture? About issues and problems that are front and center in the American life and public discourse? Do you guys know ANYTHING about my country? Could you even find it on the map? You really think it's ok to make a podcast trashing something you're as uninformed about as I am about the politics, history and culture of Malaysia or Bhutan? What you have done is just as arrogant, uneducated and loudmouthed as the guy you elected as your president. Shame on you.

No

The cult-like attitude over diversity is honestly insane to me. "We need it in everything, even if there is no justification!"

Love how Lawrence tries to start out the podcast by being neutral on the subject and then everyone starts to discuss how the developers "fucked up"

James is typically my favorite one on funhaus but I've never disagreed with him sooo hard

The White man's story has been told? This is a Czech story, how many of those have been told? Lawrence, saying all white people are the same is like saying all Asians are the same.

Nope, can't believe this is even a topic worth discussing

Is Shadow of the collosus racist? Is The Legend of Zelda Racist? Is Super Mario racist? Is Crash Bandicoot racist? Is Red Dead Redemption racist? Is The Witcher racist? Is Journey racist? Is Uncharted racist? Is the last of Us racist? Is Doom racist? Is Battlefield racist? Is my mom racist? Is Funhaus racist? Is achievement hunter racist? Is kinda funny racist? Is sugarpine 7 racist? Is everyone racist?

My respect for James is fading faster than his hair

12:53 "think of the past in a different way" What are you smoking lmao, the past is based on factual events and things that have already happened, not things that you wish would happen. Where would we draw the line from reality and fantasy if we establish this belief?

James saying that it's just a video game and historical accuracy isn't important when "you jump by pressing A" is basically him saying that video games shouldn't be taken seriously as an art form. Why would the lack of inclusion be acceptable in a book but not in a game that is trying to be realistic and accurate?

James: "I'm black Mark Twain! I'll talk in a stereotypical ghetto black accent!" Also James: "Blacks need to be represented in a game about a country that had no historical record of blacks"

God damn guys, it may be time to leave your LA bubble for a few weeks.

KKD isn't racist in the same way Black Panther isn't racist for not having white or Asian Wakandans

What's the racial diversity of rural Czech Republic in the modern era?

How does it feel to have lived long enough to see all your favorite youtubers/podcasts/etc go down in flames?

Lowest like to dislike ratio. Completely understandable.

Yeah! Fuck historical accuracy! To hell with reality! Feelings - is the only thing that matter! Never-ever let reality stay in the way of political correctness!

Short answer: No Long Answer: No

Is kingdom come: deliverance racist? No. There, saved you a bit of time.

California people =James That state needs to break away already.

Hungry is still around. Wtf is James going on about with his dead society. They still exist and have a history they'd want to share.

James: "Do I think someone that lived back then would be offended if someone depicted an inaccurate version of their world. No, because they're dead". *Insert game about slavery being depicted as cheerful and inaccurate*. Well, guess it's fine then

Wow, the arguments here are super flawed. From what I got from this, if you don't want to be accused of being a racist, go no accuracy or go full accuracy (which is impossible). Anything between no and full accuracy is considered racist... I guess.

Let me clarify a couple of things here. (Native Czech with interest in history). There were no POCs in the Kingdom of Bohemia, or more properly the "Lands of the Czech Crown" (consisting of the Kingdom of Bohemia a.k.a. the Czech Kingdom, margraviate of Moravia, duchy of Silesia, and Upper and Lower Lusatia) in the 15th century. Vast majority of the population were ethnic Czechs and Germans (e.g. white people). There was a small amount of Jews living in the country (as anywhere else in Europe), who were subjected to special rules, taxes, duties etc. and did not have the same privileges the citizens of royal towns enjoyed. At the beginning of the 15th century, Prague was a multi-cultural city, due to its University, but here again, the foreign students were other white Europeans: Germans, Poles, Scandinavians, Italians, etc. 13th century Mongolian invasion in Central Europe, that ravaged Eastern Poland and Hungary, did not even touch Czech kingdom, beyond one insignificant skirmish at the southeastern border of Moravia in the 1240s. All in all, there might have been an odd merchant travelling through, or a non-white individual in a retinue of a foreign visiting noble. But such individuals would be considered an extreme rarity and would be less than insignificant in terms of demographics. The Cumans were used as mercenaries by all major players in the Central Europe, incl. the kings of Bohemia. They came and went as required, and never settled. Those are historical facts, and anyone's feelings are immaterial. We're not going to re-write the history of my country just to cater to the sensitivities of people, who know nothing about the subject matter. While developing the game, the developers aimed at as much historical accuracy as possible. Ergo: no POCs, no bad-ass female knights. The situation would be different, if the game was less serious about historical accuracy, and more "cartoonish". But it isn't.

12:25 NO... History is history... if we do that its fantasy not history.

James was just talking out his ass this whole video.

This is definitely something you can't fix with Flex Tape

The real question is where's the Czech representation in GTA5? Because if Americans wants to argue that a small Czech game company needs to be more inclusive to others then a giant game like GTA5 needs to have people from every country on earth properly represented. Same goes for all major Japanese game companies how many countries and cultures are represented in Persona? Not enough! Now I don't want to say these American and Japanese developers are racist..... I have the people of Funhaus to do that for me.

yakuza games are racist too many asians

totally disagree with "its just a videogame, who cares about it being historically inaccurate, lets include as many black people as possible" attitude that james has. It just sounds so disregarding towards videogames and the art of it. same could be said about any other entertainment. Its just such a lazy argument dude...

You sub to someone for gameplay and personalities and then they beat you over the head with political views have been watching Adam since inside halo and I think this is far departed from the people I came to enjoy over the years and this was abhorrent in a day where the only way to get views is having wierd out of place social commentary for a group of entertainers so they can look back on a video and say they stood on a side of the people who stand for not judging people based on there merits or creativity but based on the color of their is skin when they get in trouble for some of the cuff joke good bye RU-vid it was cool while it lasted

That's like complaining that there are no Australians in a game about American mobsters. Did Australian's exist at the time? Yes, did they exist in America? Most definitely to some minor extent. Are they necessary or relevant AT ALL to the context and or narrative of the media? FUCK NO. (From an Australian).

James' position saying that books can be historically accurate but games can't / shouldn't is seriously offensive.

James please.

I'm disappointed. I typed a shit rant but I don't want to feed Lawrence. So I just want you to know I'm disappointed, and leaving. This isn't the first time you've done this. It's just the first time you've done it for an hour. Goodbye.

Lol, James says later in the podcast that he feels deep sorrow when someone mimics the social behaviour of anime characters. Because they're learning behaviour that is 10 degrees beyond want is normal. Because they're not finding out who they actually are, they're just repeating what they've seen others do, not really thinking for themselves. Sounds very fucking familiar.

I think funhaus should hire a token black guy in order to promote diversity

No.

I didn't know it was possible to be against gamergate especially being gamers on RU-vid. Did you guys just ignore the thousands of hours of people debunking every argument against gamergate on this platform alone?

damn, i'm from south america, no even close of been white, and i don't get mad everytime they don't put a latino in a game. maybe it is just my point of view but they are too sensitive with this racial thing

Wow James, just wow...

This Discussion is a joke. The Whole talk is around the Depiction of something should be the truth or the preferred truth. It`s like in 1984 rewritten history to benefit ideological beliefs

I watched Rooster teeth and Achievement Hunter for years until they started going complete SJW on everything. Haven't watched since. I guess I'll be tuning out from FH now too. Have your opinion. You're absolutely right to have it. But this is ridiculous. All the best, FH.