It's a game. When I die I want to come back to life and continue playing from where I left off. I only have a few hours a day to play and if I have to wait for my ship I lose my game time. At which point it's not worth playing at all because it is Star Citizen and you will die most of the time by no fault of yours. I want to stress that it's a game. I understand people wanting it to be as real as possible but it's still just a game and it's no fun having to wait for ships and spending time refitting your player and if I had to refit my ship every time too that's just a bunch of needless busy work that doesn't make me a better player or a more cautious player. It's just a waste of time!
It's a game, true, but every game like this has It's cool downs one way or another. It's called balance. If you could pull a draw 4 every 3 cards.......Man...that would be one crazy and eventually, boring game.... That's why there's a limit to how many draw 4's are in the deck... A limit to how many Kings and Queens are on the board, a limit to almost any game. There absolutely should be long claim times on ships of that caliber. Without it, you're going to be halfway up a tree that you quickly realize and regret climbing. Just look at Dormammu vs Dr Strange..... That's the type of BS you'd be dealing with regularly... A never ending cycle of returning players looking to f*ck your world. I assure you, it's not the setting you'd like overtime. Better to plan and have back up plans..
@@durtyred86 Yes but you're forgetting how much time it honestly takes to rebuild everything that was in your ship. To place all your components back on it if you have them at that station. Anything that you would have put in your ship to transport to three systems over that you have to now replace. There is already a huge penalty of time for losing a ship especially if you lose it not around your respawn point. I've literally timed it and when I was in a battle at pyro and not set my spawn point for me to re equip everything and get back there was 25 minutes. That's a lot of penalty for a game. In the future, had I reset my spawn point I would have not had my components to add.
@Ace-Brigade so what do you suggest they do though? Insta respawn? Extra insurance paid to cover the components of your choice, and where in the verse to deliver the ship? Losing claim timers, especially on capital ships has more con's than it does pro's imho. I just can't think of a great solution to this situation. But I do understand the length of time it can take to "prep" lol.. Once persistent hangars drop, it's gonna feel alot like Batman with his prep time. 😅
@@durtyred86 we will already have plenty to take care of with our bases. We already need to think about our respawn point. My point is the game is already punishing enough without having to wait insane amount of time for our ship as well. It would also add the unfairness of those of us with tons of ships just grabbing another ship. When we lose our components we will already have the pain of traveling to where we need to in order to find said components and reapply them to our ship. We will already be losing everything we brought in to our ship. We will also be losing any traveling that we've done if we haven't reset our spawn point. This would be much more punishing once we have 100 systems in and you could have spent days if not weeks traveling to a system. Screwing up the insurance and making wait times longer is not the answer end of story.
@Ace-Brigade I asked you for options that would help. All you offered was more complaints and in the end, a complete mental shut down..... In other words, you're being a brick wall... Typical, but still, I challenge you to....Think.... And not just say; NO!! NO!! NUH UGH!! NO WAY!! NEVER!.... Think.... offer up ideas. Don't be the hen of a wife that offers nothing but complaints and new problems but never considers rolling their sleeves up and exercising their brain. Lastly, neither of us knows how this will pan out... We don't know what will happen if we kick the bucket 30 systems away from our "spawn point".... Your complaints are relative to the current state of the game. Giving little to no thought into what the beta or released version will operate like. Saying "end of story" simply Slaps an "I'm in my own echo chamber and unable to hear anything outside of that" across your forehead.. Again, think. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it won't still happen... But brain storming and coming up with a logical idea could be passed over to CiG via their social networks. Saying no is not a great argument..
If I remember correctly, there was a round table discussion back around 2917\2018 to where insurance itself was discussed for a bit. Seemed more like them theory crafting, but still they seemed pretty sure of some of the direction. Mostly had to do with insurance being more variable vs fixed. So if you have insurance (LTI, 6 month, etc) you were covered and the cost\time would be reduced as if you had to replace the ship without having insurance. Now the variable part was that if you abuse your insurance, then the next time you had to claim your ship, the cost of UEC and\time was increased (but still cheaper than not having insurance). So it was not always reclaiming an Aurora costs you 3 minutes of time or 1,000 UEC to expedite for the next 50 reclaims - but the 2nd time you reclaimed it costs you 3:30 minutes and 1,200 UEC; next time 4:00 minutes and 1,450 UEC and so on. And if you had standard 6 mo, 12 mo, 36 mo, etc. insurance, if you have abused reclaiming, your next premium update would cost you much more. Anyhow, this is my understanding, but again, things change after 6-7 years. Congrats on your Channel as well, Jim !!
I expect it to be a big setback as well. Something neat I thought of while watching was having a required materials modifier for regions based on the salvage and mining resources being acquired and sold in the area. Ships are doing business in the area and resources are available? Capital ship replacement is only 45 days. If not then it could be 90. Something like that
I love this take on claim times. should be long and that would give more reason to not just loss your ship or your characters. I know people would be up in arms over longer wait times, and when they stop the upgraded components being replaced there will be push back hard. but it will make one really think of what ship I need to pull and need to get many low and high level ships. Tho I don't think that dead of a spaceman will happen. maybe they should go longer respawn timers on characters after to many deaths in a short time (day)
I agree, I'm fine with my character being basically immortal within star citizen. There are plenty of other ways to penalize death without the need to true death my char.
The ideal would be that your claim timer depends on ship stocks, so if there are no F7A mk I in stock, there is not timer but an order is made for the station to buy one, perhaps with a priority freight order for that ship to be bought in from another location intersystem that does have one.
I suspect there may be other things they might be able to implement, like you have to actually go the drake interplanetary factory in system X to replace your lost drake ship. A time sink like that might negate the potential that LTI might introduce. I totally agree with your perspective on how long a lost Kraken should take to replace if they don't do additional stuff to complicate this system.
I like the idea that the NPC insurance companies have to buy the ships from the market. Claim time could be based on the simulated travel time to bring a ship to where you are. The companies could also generate purchase orders for ships up to a certain amount so they have some amount of hulls on hand.
Good thoughts on claim time. I wouldn't say that CIG is in the dark at all about the impacts though. A couple of things you might have missed, Chris doesn't want a fully player driven economy, he wants the players to have some impact but not be able to dominate the way they do in Eve online. That was why he came up with the idea that in the verse 9 "people" will be AI to every player. If you look at the economy simulations you can see that AI are reacting to events in the system as well as players. Production will largely be controlled by the manufacturers of the individual ships and components, not players. You will sell titanium to a production facility that will turn them into ships, guns or missiles. High demand for component resources will drive up the price you earn by selling to these facilities and also the price of the end product. There is also a ton of simulation going on in the background with non-physicalized NPCs competing with the players. So the market is largely controlled by CIG and your mega org parking a dozen Javelins near the main station isn't going to entirely kill the system economy. You are entirely correct though in that they have not shared their thinking on this subject of insurance and ship replacement in quite some time. Last time I heard something it was Todd Pappy saying we will have to rebuy our components eventually. Even with just that, I am more likely to take a space taxi down to a planet to retrieve even my Pisces if it only costs like $1K in fare vs $200K in parts I have to replace.
Yeah, I was gonna say this and looked for a comment first. The economy in SC is well known to only be 10% player driven. I have no idea where he is getting his info.
Very good points. Mildly concerning realizing that CIG might not have an idea of how to balance this and it could end up killing the game. I hope they have figured this out internally and know what they're doing but I don't exactly trust CIG that much. The first thing I can think of is a backround kind of guarantee of the ship with LTI. Meaning LTI lets you claim a ship after it's destroyed at no cost; but that claim time would be obscenely long. Weeks or more for bigger ships. You can acquire the ships normally faster in game through normal means but the LTI means you never lose it forever. Without putting too much thought into it that's what I would do.
Yeah, I agree. I believe a longer claim timer is the most obvious solution to the 10 year / LTI "problem". I just wish they would come out and state that from the beginning but I think 1. they don't want to upset the community when they aren't exactly sure what the "replacement" system looks like. 2. they don't want to discourage Warbond purchases. I think overall CIG is doing a good job with most things, I just feel like they are pushing this issue off onto their future selves instead of dealing with it now. Thank you for the comment and sub!
I don’t have a problem with insurance, but I would like to see claim timers reflect the amount of time it would take to build a ship. This could vary depending on the availability of resources or your place in the Q for that particular ship. Then, once the ship was completed, a player would either travel to the build location to pick it up or have it shipped to a location to be claimed. Smaller, less complicated ships would have multiple build locations around the verse, and larger, more complicated ships not so much.
I agree with this 100%. Consequences make gameplay very fun and meaningful. There needs to be varied security systems in game before a 45+ day claim timer is implemented, but when we have that system diversity, we should have serious consequences to death if we venture out beyond the reach of the UEE.
I heard someone say recently that they could introduce crafted ships that are slightly better than the real money or in-game ships in some way. More blade slots or maybe they can fit better components. That way even the ships we already bought with real money would be worth crafting
i am a whaler and i stll agree fully. honestly, i want people to fear taking out their expensive ships. In eve, going into 0.0, it was thrilling to get in there with some expensive freighter or Orca and miners and then get out. equally as painful if you didnt. many times i took a week break because i was too pissed about a loss. but that is what i would love to see in SC, the other issue that will occure is the ramming etc if you just get another ship right away. The game rewards large groups, there would never NOT be anything to do. there is always someone that will need crew. soo, if you run out of ships, make a claim and then grab your engineering equipment and help out a friend. buy a new one. or even lease. either way, i would like to see something else than idiots running endlessly into the fray with endless clones and ships. i fear the "call of duty, star citizen" possibility.
If they fuck up lti or claim times I'd quit all together. The 10 minutes it takes to reclaim my cutlass is borderline annoying. Any worse and the can fuck off all together.
Any reclaim timer longer than 24 hours is batshit crazy. I’m not taking 2 week break from the game because my favorite ship is in insurance for 45 days. Wtf man.
Well, so as always, I'm not saying this is the way something will happen or will be done or even needs to be done. Just that ship loss needs to be meaningful, and if they can create that sense of meaning and keep people from exploiting a claims process, then by al means, I'm open to whatever they come up with. Also, my example was for a free non expedited claim on a capital ship. I'm fine with getting it back much sooner so long as the claim fee is large enough to impact the decision. Thanks for the comment and view!
Sometimes I miss my aurora. The time to reequip, slup a cross the system, maybe find my body or equip, pick up from where I was. For a player that has limited time to play....that is big deal.
I would love to see the day where Player Built ships replace lost ships with insurance and the claim time literally be how long it takes to fill the build and delivery order be it by Player or the NPC
Wrong. I'm an over-the-road trucker with 2 days home a week. Between errands, chores, and family time, my gaming time is extremely limited and valuable. Being destroyed (or disconnected, let's be honest), waiting for my reclaim, and starting the mission over drastically affects my gameplay ability. Just sharing my own situation, I enjoyed your video.
I'm a very relaxed player. I'd be more than happy to place a multiday claim to move a giant freighter to a base. I'd then do something else in game while waiting for that to complete. I hate repetition, so I'm definitely not one of those players who tries to see how many of the same cargo run I can do in an hour. But, I think I'm not typical.
Back in the early days they said that even though you have to insure the ships without LTI before flight but you'll also be able to insure your ship upgrades and cargo if applicable over and above the ship base insurance.
Have some sort of in-game "training wheels" that are applied for a time period following an insurance claim It could l be a performance hit to your ship based on the frequency of your insurance history.
I’ve been wondering about this as well. How did Eve handle insurance? I just now stumbled on your channel. I do appreciate what you’re doing here. Asking hard questions. Keep up the good work.
o7 fellow Jim. Eve had a very straight forward insurance system. You started with 40% payout for free and could buy up to 100% for 12 weeks duration, so long as you didn't break the contract in a few ways, most notably getting killed by concord *meaning you tried to or did kill someone in high security space*. The payout wasn't based on the player traded value for the ship, it was based on the Mineral value it took to construct the hull, these two values could be very similar or VERY far apart based on the "rarity" of the ship. It also just covered the ship hull value, no ship modules (components) are covered (which can EASILY out value a ship hull price) and no cargo was covered. so depending on the ship and its intended use, often times you just left it with the native 40% and took what you got (which wasn't much), or some ships you knew 100% were going to go welp it and got the 100% coverage.
If the wait times become excessive or if there's a risk of losing ships that players have purchased with real money, I think the game would be dead in no time.
We wont be building ships, components and structures maybe but i think the ships comming from manufacturer makes sense. Makes even less sense for decommissioned military ships that were moved into civilian hands as any "new" ones of them should come from military store yards and are long out of production
Plenty of money sinks in SC to support a player driven economy brotha, ships are a very small part. Not to mention the future of upgraded components, weapons etc (specifically crafting and supercharging). The abuse part of the insurance system they have said that your claim cost Will depend on the amount of time you claim, kinda following insurance fraud.
A) i don't think players will be producing ships. we will be supplying materials to MISC and RSI and AEGIS to produce ships. if your ship goes boom, you claim in on insurance and a factory will have to build a replacement. there may be some stock on hand, but if a lot of Carracks go boom this month, there might be a back log.
@@Citizen_Jim well, that may be cool. I have been pretty much away from the game since Dec 2022. just getting back into it. Was it the 2023 Citizencon? I'll have to go back and listen I guess.
First of all 10 year insurance is not LTI! I've been playing this game for 5 years and I plan on continuing to play it for probably another 20 to 30 years if I can stay alive that long. Look at how long wow or Eve online have lasted. Second, nobody's going to want to run stock components. You may not have been around earlier but components used to mean a big difference and they will in the future again. They only just set them all the same to start balancing. Next, I put in over $7,000 of my hard earned cash to ensure that I don't have to deal with a bunch of bull crap just to get my ship back. I have VERY limited time to play this game and if I have to spend it all jumping through a bunch of hoops just to get a ship I'm not going to bother playing and I bet most people that aren't retired or don't have their children all gone out of the house I feel the same way. Hell probably even people who are in a situation where they have a lot of time. The dynamic economy will mean a lot and most (The vast majority) of players do not have LTI on their ships. The way insurance works now will not be the way it works in the future and you will not have unlimited respawns for ships without LTI. This game is not Eve and I don't want it to be Eve if I wanted Eve I would have purchased, downloaded and played Eve. Insurance, is literally insurance. When I pay for insurance on my car my insurance company doesn't expect me to go mine the resources to build the body panels myself I just get a new car.
I will add also that ship timers didn't even used to exist. They added them and then they increased them dramatically. They are already a pain in the rear. My time is precious and spending it waiting for a timer to go down is annoying. They aren't going to change the ship timers again to make them even more dramatically painful. If they did there would be an uprising.
I can tell you're very passionate about the game and so for that reason alone I won't argue with you. These are, after all, just my opinions. I do hope you get the game you're looking for, I'm just not convinced that you will be.
The current claim time is product of a game riddled by bugs and 30K. I expect it to change when there is an economy and less game breaking bugs. I melted a Carrack, tired of being dropped in the middle of nothing during quantum and then waiting almost an hour to get it back.
One word. BUGS. Insurance is a great concept except, until they they are able to detect loss due to a bug vs game play they can't put any kind of complex Insurance in place. Also the game as a test is not ready for it they players back on the field to continue getting data. Insurance as intended for release will be one of the final projects and will be amped up at the end of development.
they would have to be able to stop ships from randomly exploding for no reason for any of this to make sense otherwise it would be extremally frustrating and upsetting. why would they make you wait that long for ships? do you think ppl would keep playing? is it a good strat to make your players wait days to get ships?? most would just stop playing or go play other games while they wait.
I'm more worried that once insurance is up on a non LTI item, would I have to rebuy that ship with USD? Where does it go, how does insurance work there?
Yeaaaa I’m ok with not waiting forever… I don’t have fucking time to mess with shit like this. I work a great deal and don’t time to wait a month for a ship I paid for. Guess we need an income tax mechanic too.
I don't agree with your theory , With respect ! . It might not be indicative of a Player based economy, but let me share my thoughts. i agree with you on a few points , While I agree i don't think a powerful org, or a bunch of pirates should just be able to spawn there same ships over and over in a perpetual bombardment of everlasting harassment , i do think all our ships and there components (if bough legitimately ) should be respawned when the respective ships are claimed, or Mabey even pay for separate insurance for components at the time of purchase . if the components are stolen salvaged then there gone. i do however think that the current respawn times are good as they are . there are other aspects to the game already in place to, make game play fair. its called Crime stat. there are different levels of crime and various levels of punishments and different areas of the galaxy that have different levels of crime and lawlessness , AND REWARDS, to make a person think about the choices they make . if your a criminal , pirate or murderer the rewards might be great, but if you die with a crime stat , your gone to jail, the time in jail is reflective of the crime done in the area its perpetuated in .( your ship the cant be claimed if your in jail), therefore pacing the assault. In some areas there will be no jail time at all ,,, if i choose to build a base in pyro, and its blown to smithereens, well sucks to be me, that's the risk you take. you see ,the rewards might be 5 times more rewarding for me to build a base in pyro but so is the risk . now if i choose to live a lawful life and build a base in a much less risky area like , let say new Babbage and make much less rewards, why should i be penalized for getting all my ships lost for days and days or months as you suggest. If i take my resources to a high risk area for more profit and more reward , again this is my choice and the risk is proportionate, I'm happy to be in a org and explore all the game play loops , and sometimes we get crime stats, then spend hours sometimes breaking out of jail, then more time clearing the crime stat just so we can land at our home with out getting shot down by a station or sometimes just call it a day and log off for the night . any way , that makes more sense to me as a risk /reward, as i think CIG might want people to actually play the game , and i don't no very many people people who want to buy in to a game if they cant fly the ship they want to fly because there locked out for days weeks or months, criminal or law abiding
This game won’t survive if people want space combat and it takes an hour per ship to claim AFTER expediting. Then another hour to re-outfit it. 😊 In EVE I can buy/replace my ship instantly and outfit it ALL AT THE SAME PLACE and time.
I stated in the video that I'm fine with an instant claim so long as that was reflected in the cost to expedite it. Rebuying a ship and getting free claim on the ship are not the same thing. Eve largely balances a lot of the combat with the size of the universe and the time it takes to move *logistics* If you die in a random lowsec system or null if you want to make it even worse, its unlikely you have a ship in that system ready to go as a replacement, your going to make the 15 - 45 jumps it takes to get to the closest to you trade hub and purchase a new ship and fittings. You aren't getting back to that fight in anything less than an hour if not more.
I think the claim time should be longer on bigger ship but you start putting day on wait time on ship they will probably start loosing player and new player will rage quit it there brand new $60 drake cutter gets destroyed and you have to wait a day or 2 to get it back I think your on to something but I would say that a day or 2 is perfectly fine on a bigger ship because your still screwed and can’t use that ship to finish whatever you where doing
and that's perfectly reasonable, in retrospect I should have emphasized more heavily that I'm not opposed to any ideas other than my own, only that we will need something more than we currently have in order for ship loss to feel impactful. The game at the end of the day needs to feel fun and rewarding without being overly harsh on players. We just at current have zero value of our in game ships and I hope we don't see that for a full release. Thanks for the view and comment!
I do think claim times will increase drastically, although you can shave off large chunks when you shelve out some money, the way you suggested would be amazing imho, although I'd like to also believe that the timer might be marginally less in your own personal persistent hangar too. I'm not sure how everything will work, but just in case I have LTI on all my ships (except my starter). Edit: sudden thought that sprung to mind; what if every cross chassis upgrade diminishes the integrity of your ship, which in turn adds to your claim timer/cost/value/grade or whatever multiplier/debuff CIG would like to implement. So if you've bought a ship on the cheap (like most of us did, I'm guessing), you'll lose some premiums compared to ships bought straight up. Food for thought
Unless Star Citizen stops being "Bug Citizen", where you can randomly have your ship blow up or something happens to your character, like fall through the ground, this would meke the game more tedious & less fun.
If we make the game too damn "realistic" it will suck as much as real life and it won't be a game anyone WANTS to play. LTI should mean something and so should ten year, and even 6 months. I would very much like to see CSI use the engine that they are developing to fund the game and maybe skins. NO MORE SHIP SALES and those who were the "BAKERS" get to enjoy the bounty of having an actual benefit for funding the development for the game. You can always buy ships in game and buy insurance in game as well. But for all who paid for this game to exist it should have a reward for that. I know those who paid $45 want to have everything in the verse but I WANT A LAMBO and tough shit. I didn't buy one so boohoo. If the only REAL benefit to funding hundreds of millions of dollars is that we don't have to pay a insurance fee, well that isn't too much to let backers have is it?
One more thing. I am a state licensed INSURANCE AGENT. I thing Insurance should work like this. You have a policy, 6 months, 1 year, 2 year, 10 year, LTI. You need to PAY your PREMIUM to file a claim. It should in my opinion be 10% of the ships cost to claim. If you don't have a policy YOU LOSE YOUR SHIP!!!! Then you will have to buy it again IN GAME and then buy new insurance IN GAME. Also I think LTI should be a legacy option only for those backers who bought LTI on ships before the release of the ACTUAL game. That should be like another 10 years or so at this pace so no rush. lol
Your suggestion would make this game even more pay-to-win.... Example.. Person A spends $500 on a Combat ship then fights person B over area. Person A kills person B and win area. But person B spent $1,000 on 2x Combat Ships and goes back to kill A. Now person A will need to wait 1 week for his ship to come back. Person B just payed to win...This is a very shit system.
yeah I used a gaming headset to record the audio for this and the pyro video, I have since upgraded to a xlr condenser mic, so hopefully you will notice a big difference in audio quality on my newer videos. Thanks for the view and suggestions tho! let me know if you hear a difference going forward!
CiG doesn't seem to have the technical chops to make Star Shitizen anywhere near as complex as Eve Online. Eve Online was developed by software developers as was released far faster than Star Shitizen. Please get a grip on reality.
@@pureowner74 I have no tolerance for broken software of any kind but then I am also a software engineer with more than 5 decades of experience and my professional work has always been required to be of the highest quality and thus my lack of tolerance for using broken software. I also do not dig games that punish my lack of skill by taking my time from me as Star Shitagain does and always will.
