Is NASTF requiring you to buy a credential to use YOUR AFTERMARKET scan tool? 

You think so? How many keys do you even make? I’ve been working on cars professionally for 22 years now. I can honestly say, I’ve probably done maybe 200 keys in all those years. Ppl don’t come to me for keys, ppl come to me to fix their cars. If they have a key issue, they call me, and I forward them to a locksmith. Not to mention, the cars I service, you order the key from the dealership, and it already comes programmed ready to go. All I need to do is sync the remote functions with the vehicle. So keys have never been a hindrance for me. Service parts locked away behind a security paywall have been my nemesis. Namely, Mercedes TRP. Which I’m not happy about paying the extortion fee to the NAFTS, but have no choice. I feel NAFTS has gotten more cozier with manufacturers than with us, and that’s never a good thing.

@@lynxstarautomotive208 That's true. I rarely do any key programming. I also rarely carry a handgun. I like to have the option to do either. Every time a new policy is passed like this we all lose a little bit more of our freedom. If someone is going to illegally use technology like a km100 or similar tool to steal a car, the penalty should be so harsh that no criminal would even think about stealing. Maybe a 5 year mandatory prison sentence.

@@TheShop10ohh I’m in Florida. Carry 24/7. It’s like an appendage at this point.

" I’ve probably done maybe 200 keys " thats 200 keys that you would NOT have under this system

@@chriscrowell6678WRONG. I specialize on European cars only. BMW/VW you just show proof of ownership, order it from the dealer, and the new key comes programmed and everything, ready to go out of the box. All you have to do is sync the remote fob. Mercedes does require a TRP tho. Mercedes is always the pita of the German brands tho.

Huh? Locksmith's are robbed and burglarized every day for their tools.

Except to add a key on many vehicles, it currently doesn't require a working key. So making it not necessary when adding a key would be pointless.

@@bstrickler making it voluntary and having cheap Chinese tools available already makes it pointless. The only affected people are the honest people who want the functionality.

@@sumduma55 I'd prefer making it mandatory.

@@bstrickler then I would support price controls to ensure right to repair, hobbyists, and lower income people have access. Maybe a $20 -$30 limit on programming fees?

@@sumduma55 There will be no discounts. They will set their prices and their rules. You have to buy a key from me, have me program it and by the way, that will be $500.

I had zero input on this voluntary system, it was already built for OEM tools, I am sure there is some kind of law against me telling a company (aftermarket scan tool makers) they are not allowed to use a system their OEM competitors use. ETI may be mandaditing this as required but that doesnt have anything to do with NASTF. Thats like being beingad at ASE (NASTF) that your employer (ETI) is making you get ASEs. Its uneducated thoughts.

Huh? Dude you have no idea what I do everyday.

@@BigDogDiagnostics that’s not true Keith is a good dude and does care. I’ve seen it and always helps. You can have a different opinion but don’t blast Keith for it.

I'm retired but still operate out of my 1 lift 2 bay shop and the only shop in town and within a 50 mile radius that does keys , I help out the other shops in town with their electronic including key, and do it for cost + 25 bucks, instead everyone around will have to have their car towed to Billings or pay the locksmiths in Billing to drive 100 miles round trip. In the cities I could care less, but in rural America, as always, We get screwed !! I'm not a fan the Police State ! ( just my 2 cents )

I get it if you are not in a position to just drop the money. Hell I'm not really either. But programming is a big part of my business and automotive lock smiting is a growing part of my business. But here is just the realty. Cars are being stolen with the aftermarket tools that we are using. OEM are taking things like server calculation for keys away from us on the aftermarket tools because of theft. I can't say this will bring that part back, but before OEM's say you know what we are just going to make all car modules antitheft modules and completely take it way from us this is a happy meet in the middle for now. Like I tell clients with new or complex vehicles, If you want to play you have to pay.

@@YOUZTUBE2000NASTF is a joke. They just let the manufacturers bully them. Been that way for several years now. This update doesn’t surprise me, because we are slowly heading into a future where you won’t even be able to scan a vehicle unless your tool is fully connected to the manufacturers’ servers. We are right back to the Wild West that was the OBD 1 days

NOT A SINGLE TOOL MAKER IS REQUIRED TO DO IT. so voluntary. The tool makers asked for it.

@@L1Training What does that have to do with anything

And how much kick back will the tool manufacturers get? Everybody’s hand get greased in these type of government arrangements. It is actually comical​@@advancedleveldiagnostics

A 2 year apprenticeship?? Geez

What state is this?

Everyday.

@@L1Training So, NASTF is going to make it more complicated. If the judicial system worked none of this bullshit would ever be needed. This makes it really hard for the small guy in a rural area!

There is, it’s called bring it to my shop, and I’ll charge you a small fee to work as a DIY for a day or similar. I’ve been doing this, and it works well.

But why home gamers have to pay that. Doesnt make sense. Only adventage to shops like you. ​@lynxstarautomotive208

⁠@@kkaroundit’s not an advantage for anyone except manufacturers friend. Do you know how much we pay in subscriptions? It’s in the ten + thousand. Just so we can get access to data, to fix their crappy designs. Who do you think shoulders the expense? The consumer does. The example I’m giving above is about the “DIY rental bays” a shop like mine will rent out a bay by the hour to the DIY’er. We provide it all. Basic tools, repair data, and specialty equipment you otherwise can’t afford. This helps us with the overhead, you save money not paying for a mechanic, and you get the piece of mind of doing it yourself.

@lynxstarautomotive208 I am paying subscription too for my tools. That's is just something extra they want us to purchase. I have been doing this since early 2019 and not a single time I needed NASTAF access. And it make absolutely no sense for me to take a customer to shop to make a key. And since we have our own repair shop with dealers license ans we program our own keys.

@@kkaroundNo disrespect, but my world is totally different. I NEED a VSP, otherwise I’m locked out of specific parts needed to fix certain cars. Research Mercedes Benz TRP. You ain’t getting shit done there without an NASTF credentials. With electric vehicles it’s only going to get worse. So no disrespect to you, but 2019? I started in 2002. Been independent since 2012. There is a lot you don’t know.

lol It's like in my area all the hyundai's that got the immobilizer installed, still get broken into because no one told the thief.

Yep, word will get around quick.

They are too difficult...

😂 😂 The same can be said about many of the so called qualified technicians. Can we get a list of founding companies and NASTF members? I'm sure you'd want customers to know who the approved service providers are! I searched and can't find any. @L1Training

Lol modern vehicles are too hard for the “professional” technicians to work on. So they definitely think it is too hard for the owner to work on. That’s why a cattle rancher like myself makes a decent amount of play money every year fixing what the guys at the dealership couldn’t. This entire program is a scam, but if my fellow citizens want to screw each other over, I’ve got no problem turning to China and Russia for the workaround.

I know right, all these thieves running around, scamming customers with "cheapest keys in town" !!!

Also identifies as native American 😳 I could be wrong, but I think most people want a plain metal key! The Chinese has already circumvented everything they have done. A $700 Launch beats the new Zeus+. The current state of the auto industry is mostly an annoyance. Everything is a computer module and tools require $100 to $200 subscription and Internet just to work. It's getting ridiculous.

@@jacksautorepairI agree there. Reminds me of the early OBD1 days, when you needed 300 connectors to scan all the different vehicles. It’s going to take another OBD2 mandate to fix a lot of this, but sadly I don’t see it happening anytime soon.

Good... People like you are exactly the people that are hurting legit locksmiths that do pay that commercial insurance liability insurance and everything that's needed. It's not cheap

@toiletclogger637 i dont program keys for $15 to the general public. I do replace modules that require existing keys to be relearnt. I have no issues with locksmiths and their job. So don't misunderstand what i stated. I'm sure scan tool manufacturers planned this for a while and could have given their authorized distributors a heads up to issue potential customers

@@toiletclogger637 so this is an occupation protection racket? You beef with the guy complaining is that now real locksmiths can charge more? I'm sorry but there is something seriously wrong there.

I use all Autel for my locksmith company & we only got 2 vans on the road but have been doing it for years & I've never got a NASTF account I thought about it for a long time I've got 100k worth of equipment & tool so I decided to go ahead and fill my information out, but I have already started running into issues with them. I know they said it's tool companies discretion but I'm pretty sure Autel is going to be apart of it

@@AR-il9gkYou need to talk to your employer. Your employer should be registered with NASTF. They only need to claim you, and list you as a VSP employee. At that point you will be issued an LSID, and those are the credentials you share with your tool maker. I have a business registered myself, and that’s how I do it.

oh yes.

No D1 with AM tool transactions.

1 weekend and $800 in Oklahoma.

@@L1TrainingWould that be true for a Texas resident where the requirements to obtain a license include: 1) Take a 48-hour basic locksmith course; 2) Attend an approved locksmith trade school (must include a specific curriculum consisting of approximately 600 hours of class time); 3) Work for a licensed lock shop for one year full-time.

@@bobhutchins557 obviuosly not. You would have to follow your state laws.

@@L1Training Thanks, Keith. It's a real challenge. I'm 67 and wanted (note the careful use of the word "wanted") to get a locksmith license so I could do it legitimately part time. Turns out the barriers to entry (to get a license) are so high that it's not practical for somebody my age who wants to do it part time. There are other issues, too. Even though required by the regulating board, there are no schools that offer locksmith curriculums in Texas. That makes things really tough. Working full time for a year isn't exactly what I was looking for in retirement. The sad thing is that I feel I have a lot to offer the community but can't because I want to do it legally. Since, as a practical matter, I can't get a locksmith license in Texas, I can't get NASTF credentials. I don't know that my situation is unique, but it sure is disheartening. On the more optimistic side, I sure have enjoyed your online training classes! 👍👍

you dont say what your background is ? just curious, I can relate to your situation, i am a retired automotive tech and i stil hold a valid C of Q / license and do some stuff part time as i enjoy it annd it keeps me busy. It is not obtainable for myself either @@bobhutchins557

Only if the maker of the tools you use chose to use the validation program. NASTF isn't requiring anyone uses it.

@@L1Training true but it is in the sense that I'm running into a increasing number of vehicles that are flagging that in order to access the programming function or all keys lost function then they require that set of credentials in order to successfully program a new proximity fob or smart key anyway I am already in the process of presenting my idea to corporate outlying the added benefit of possibly one of our ppl at each location getting and being the only one to use said credentials I couldn't stress that enough in my email about the strict usage of that system being clear that it has to be by the one who got the license and now I wait to see if they will allow me to pursue this idea and give them a 1 year pilot test showing the costs and benefits as well as added revenue to the store based off being able to simply offer more services to broader customer base so ty and wish me luck.

Not if they are on the fbi watch list like autel and xtool 😅

@@danielben6960 Then that isn't voluntary, is it?

@@starrybear9778it’s voluntary for *them* the tool manufacturers, not for us, the owners of the tool. If your tool maker jumps onboard, well then you need to get your ducks in a row.😉 Remember the lingo and politics of this industry. It’s not mandatory, you can still be a mechanic without it! You just can’t fix anything without it either 😂

Voluntary for who? Not me!

Amen brother!

Well said bro

The chip and computer programming only drives up the cost of cars and maintenance. People should decide if they want a chip key for their car or not. Should be able to turn it off. Someone should tell this guy that almost no one wants that on their car especially an older car. Him being a Native American doesn't mean anything to me. I know his motives are to drive more customers to pay his even higher prices.. How many people have had to scrap their old or new car because of programming and chip key issues?

Yep, and this will make it harder for someone to buy a $400 tool and steal cars.

@@L1Training a thief is gonna steal a car no matter what. It can even be at gun point. There is basically nothing we can do. No need a scan tool to steal a car.

Most consumers are oblivious. The only time a customer of mines learns I’m an NASTF VSP, is when I have a Mercedes part failure that’s locked away through TRP. I will admit, while I find the practice to be pure hypocrisy, because it’s all about the money at the end of the day. It has generated extra income for me because other shops, used car lots, etc are forced to come to me to fix the issue, and that generates business. 🤷‍♂️

They would say "who cares, the other guy with the hack tools is cheaper".

@@wantfaxYou can’t buy the replacement part, without the credentials. Mercedes won’t sell it to you. Google Mercedes TRP parts. They have several parts locked away behind this security pay wall. The only way you can get the parts is if you take it to the dealer, or to an independent who has the credentials.

It's $212 a year..... if you only work on 200 cars a year just add a dollar to each ticket.

The 1 million liability insurance requirement to make 200 car keys a year is what is ridiculous.

@@stevehardy4183it doesn’t cost a million for the policy tho. Policy is like 1200 bucks for the year if that.

If they include tools that have already been purchased you're damn straight I am interested.

None of them do as far as I know, but I know Advanced Diagnostics at least has password protection. Not that it helps if stolen. But to the self righteous NASTF people, the thieves can't use it...wooopie..!!

Nothing, it's voluntary.

​@@L1Trainingits not voluntary if the scanner manufacturer decides to volunteer you in. There is the problem. It will not stop Chinese/foreign manufacturers and will not stop hackers from removing the software. A Bluetooth adapter and a laptop or tablet and pirated software... all it does is cost some people lots of money. And once that it realized, it will become mandatory costing everyone lots of money while there will still be work around and hacked software and crap. And that crap will be needed so a diy'er doesn't get stuck with a couple hundred bill on top of the hundreds if not thousands replacing an ECM or BCM.

And the Chinese tools are what most startups use, So this wont do anything but affect the honest shops. Kind of like gun control, only affects those following the rules.

Actually, isn't the whole point of this to allow OEs to require VSP credential through the tools for certain functions? Otherwise, people would just buy chinese tools and it would be like nothing happened.

you will learn that while getting your VSC

It’s called AIR and has 15+ companies participating.

Update or evaporate. If it gets too hard to run the shop you don't have the right people in the right places.

Go to the NASTF site and check it out.

So whose getting the money, NASTF doesn't charge the scan tool maker, and the program is voluntary..... So...

@@L1Training You damn well the "voluntary" is horse shit. They all will do it. Making someone have insurance or more of it is a cost. Maybe you're made of money but out here in rural areas people don't have extra money. Who is getting the money? Scan tool companies. This is just a start like everything else and eventually there will be a fee to scan your own vehicle. There have always been criminals and this won't stop them!

We need to lobby bureaucrats, otherwise, nothing will change. You see how the uploader is on the NASTF board? Well we also need consumers on the board, because at the end of the day, their decisions will only affect you all. It’s going to affect you all in that you will no longer be able to work on your vehicle, you will need a guy like me to do it all. So if you don’t want that type of future, you need to have your voice heard.

@@lynxstarautomotive208 exactly. He was smirking the whole time he was telling the story. It’s all about separating peoples money from their already empty pockets.

This may not be "government" as Keith says but being anti government as he says, this is very closely related when it limits the honest guy. And requiring a million dollar insurance policy is bullshit! That's voluntary? Come on, Keith, you know that's horse shit. There should be no insurance requirement at all. That's interfering with life liberty and happiness! No need to require insurance let alone million dollars worth! "C'mon man"! I'll bet Keith knows who says that!

Not true, any document showing you are in good standing, that$100 for the first year and $25 each year after in most states. A very small price to be a legitimate business.

@@L1Training What would be considered an acceptable source for that letter? NYS does not consider anything less than LLC. I sent in the request so I could get an accurate answer. They sent that I am not found. And my business is legit. Sales in NY and PA. Legit

@@thekeyguy i you have a busimess name other than ypur actual name, by law you should have filed for an assumed name (DBA) with NYS. A LLC in NyS is $200.

@@L1Training Yep Got a DBA and I am not found. Yet with that DBA I am registered to collect tax in 2 states. I submitted to them and got a response. My own bewilderment is present.

There is nothing to cancel, it's a program that has been in place since 2008 for OEM tools, now aftermarket tools can use it if they chose to.

If you can't get through the paperwork, you shouldn't do immo work on cars.

@@L1Training Pretty childish response to an opinion on the sign up process but sure, if that's how you feel lol. Not sure how my ability to work on cars and program keys has anything to do with the fact that signing up is a prolonged hassle requiring multiple parties to get stuff done. It's the same experience like the DMV.

@@L1Training Your spiel about being an Indian and anti government doesn't bode well with that statement. Being all in on this bullshit requirement is one thing but making all these hoops to do it so difficult is another. You won't stop theft but it will stop those in rural areas that can't afford it. But big city folks like you just dont get it nor do you care so long as it prevents people from doing it and brings you more business is the way you come off by saying if you can't go through the hoops you shouldn't be doing IMMO. That's inconsiderate. Very inconsiderate. We don't all have your luxury and many people can't afford it in rural areas. Be a little considerate of others! And fuck the scan tool companies. Making their life easier and ours more difficult is a bad idea! Those poor scan tool companies, poor babies! Whine until you cave to them. Need to have unbiased people on the NASTF board for input!

Its up to the tool maker.

Yes.

@L1Training thanks for the info Keith. I'll get what's required and submit my application hopefully soon.

You probably didn't think about this, but all your aftermarket tools you use to program only had an opportunity to reverse engineer the OEM tool because NASTF fought for your right be able to buy an OEM tool. SO those companies like Autel, Xtool, AD were able to purchase OEM tools and have the NASTF access to use the OEM tools and then reverse engineer them! Awesome right!

well, at least you won't be my competition if your not going to NASTF, I can program newer cars and you won't be able to..Gotta keep up with the industry or fall behind

This is only for immobilizer functions on your scan tool. HOWEVER, modern vehicles (beginning 2018ish) have started to block access to the OBD port of the vehicle. Requiring you to either have the OEM scan tool, or be linked to the manufacturer through DOIP (diagnostic over internet protocol). Basically, your tool has to be connected to the internet, and has to link to the manufacturer’s server in order for you to scan the vehicle and perform controls and functions. This will slowly become the norm for everyone. Only professional mechanics, and dealers will be able to perform diagnostics on the vehicle. That is wrong in my eyes, and I’m a professional mechanic.

@@lynxstarautomotive208 this really seem to be going over the top . When you own a tool you should be able to use it. Thank you for the reply. 🇺🇸👍 Artie

Right to repair never included Immo functions or data, all the functions of immo on any aftermarket tools is reverse engineered or stolen, so a lawsuit will only remove functions from tools as it will expose the means used to create the functions.

It has no effect outside the US.

I thought all locksmiths have to be VSP and have an LSID? How else would you be able to operate?

@@lynxstarautomotive208A lot of these guys Lishi locks so they don't need codes. They haven't run into anything or they spent hours and gave up when certain vehicles need an additional code only NASTF can provide. I get these calls too. A locksmith spent 2 days on my car and couldn't make the key. This is a real profession not a weekend or part time thing. We get out there and in an hour we get them going. Sure we charge a lot more but we know what we are doing instead of trying to do "favors" because people are poor or the other hundred excuses I have read here. We don't Lishi BTW. If the lock code can't be obtained easily (we don't pull door panels any more) we buy a code and price the job before we go out accordingly.

Sorry bro, but people will forever be responsible for their actions, also a car theft is about the only thing preventing someone from getting one.

@@L1Training I agree, I was just stating that this was lobbied with auto markers and is more deep rooted than people think. I don’t have a record so I don’t care but I’ve heard felony in general. Are you saying that’s not the case? If it is just grand theft then obviously that makes sense.

Raise your rates and do business right. Not screwed, if you follow the rules and do it right you can do it. Currently you are making it hard on legit businesses.

Its not a law, or a mandate

@@L1Training They are charging honest people instead of charging criminals. You do know they don't charge these people? Makes their job easier and creates an intrusive industry that has never been needed. Car theft is mostly in urban areas near big cities with weak DA's. Most buy these tools to do their own car or help people with old cars that no one wants to steal in the first place. As a Locksmith I am ashamed of other Locksmiths like yourself who call the vast majority of tool owners dishonest. I'm done watching you. Unsubscribed.

@@dk4622 how is NASTF going to charge criminals? They are a non-profit...

@@L1Training The government doesn't charge them leading to repeat crimes. Just a few are doing the theft. Non-profit 😁?You profit by steering the work to yourself and strong arming legislators, tool makers and fellow Locksmiths. No one was asking for Nastif other than people like you and Advanced Diagnostics etc. You guys will never admit guilt.

Over 1 million car thefts in the US last year alone says there is a problem.

I agree. The price is way too high anyways. 500 bucks for two years then 400 every two years. You can't leave the scan tool sit turned off longer than a day... which us common for DIY'ers. I'm not looking to turn anything into a career and have to start charging myself to do my own keys.

​@@L1Training7 of the top 10 vehicles stolen in 2022 were 2007 or under. Only 1 make was over 2017 - the 2021 Toyota camry. Should we force every to buy new cars to prevent them from being stolen? I mean as long as we are gatekeeping and playing cop enforcer.

@@L1Training We can't correlate car thefts to key making scan tools.. or assume that reducing access to key making scan tools will reduce car thefts. Most cars that are professionally stolen are stripped and sold for parts anyway.... It's not like people can just make a key and then you're off driving it again... Also, the thieves would just have to "know a guy" to get it done anyway. Plus you can just swap the parts from a wrecked car... Just swapping the ECM and the matching ignition parts with the KEY, already bypasses this issue flat out. So it doesn't help stop theft-- it simply screws over our right to repair our own things. The ROI is not worth the trouble. And believe me-- I live in Oklahoma and recently got a stack of metal sheets stolen from my lot which is right next to my house.. So I absolutely hate thieves-- but I hate big brother over reach even more.

So much for being the hero that saves someone several hundred dollars on a something that people on the clock, didn't have time to solve. Now they have to absorb the cost. People ALREADY can't afford to fix their vehicle... THIS reduces their option and raises the cost. HORRIBLE THING TO DO TO THE LOWER CLASS!

The ones that already do yes, the others... no.

I have to disagree on the regulation. If anything we are over regulated to all hell. Things started going haywire around the mid 2000’s, when manufacturers found ways to circumvent the OBD2 connector. Remember the days when all you could communicate with a Mercedes via OBD 2 was the ME and TCU? You needed DAS and the multiplexer to comm with the rest of the vehicle. That shutout a bunch of shops. This leads to predatory practices. Hell I used to charge 150.00 to hook up my clone DAS and access SAM modules etc back in those days. This is the type of BS that has everyone in a frenzy. Today it’s immobilizer data, tomorrow every module will be considered immobilizer, and you need an LSID and VSP to access said data. All it does is elevate the costs for everyone, and for what really? Is it really going to stop thieves? Hell no. Also, do you have an automotive business? If you did, you would know you have to appease a plethora of different alphabet agencies. In my state it’s EPA, DERM, OSHA, FDOR, Sunbiz, the office of consumer services, that’s on top of the certifications and licenses required to actually perform work on the vehicles. The auto industry has been over regulated to hell and back. Something needs to give because we are reaching a breaking point. It’s like the OBD 1 days.

BUT isn't that the point - it's NOT a regulation it's "VOLUNTARY" but "NOT REALLY" and a regulation would come with federal oversight, this has none, Currently $2XX/year, 5years from now $$$$/YEAR totally voluntary to pay whatever they want to set the price too. @@lynxstarautomotive208

​@@lynxstarautomotive208 I do have an automotive business (I'm a locksmith and do immo and module programming work as well as complex electrical diagnostics most shops don't want to fool with). In my state there is zero regulation. Plenty of hacks out there grabbing what they can without so much as a business license or insurance, advertising on FB marketplace, and I get calls from customers who say things like "well I hired a guy to make a spare key, he fiddled around for an hour or so and then left and now my original won't work either and he won't answer my calls". WIll this fix that? Certainly not immediately, but it's a step in the right direction. Those of us doing key and immo work have a massive responsibility to do the right thing and zero oversight to make sure we're doing it. If I want to buy certain types of refrigerant, I need an EPA card. This is not that different.