Is There Magic In Dune? 

From my reading, the first Dune book tries to imply there's not. The Bene Geserite and other abilities are mundane, the effects of strict discipline, raw intelligence, training, or mind altering drugs. But as the story progresses, the abilities seem more and more unbelievable to the point that it's hard to just think these are not supernatural abilities.

Frank Herbet himself expresses it perfectly in Heretics: "This is the awe-inspiring universe of magic: There are no atoms, only waves and motions all around. Here, you discard all belief in barriers to understanding. You put aside understanding itself. This universe cannot be seen, cannot be heard, cannot be detected in any way by fixed perceptions. It is the ultimate void where no preordained screens occur upon which forms may be projected. You have only one awareness here-the screen of the magi: Imagination! Here, you learn what it is to be human. You are a creator of order, of beautiful shapes and systems, an organizer of chaos." And this is why Dune so wunderfully weaves together fantasy and science fiction. Herberts magic arises when an observer encounters the possbility space that is the physical universe.

A note on the voices of the sisterhood, in the real world right NOW movie studios realized they can use sounds that the human ear can pick up but the human mind can't perceive to influence how people are feeling. There is a specific tone that we can't hear but for some reason raises a human's anxiety levels, and that sound is often used in some scenes in scary movies. In my opinion, the idea that a human could train themselves to make a sound they can hear but not perceive is actually very much in line with Dune's setting and the idea of conflicting facts or realities having to be accepted in order to grasp higher levels of personal power.

Whether it's magic does depend on semantics, but from a writing standpoint Dune uses several "magic" systems, best explained by Brandon Sanderson in his talks about the laws of creating magic systems. Personally, I would say that while things like the mentats and the various Tleilaxu shenanigans are within possibility if we factor in an assumption of pre-series bio-engineering (bit of transhumanism, that is), the prescience abilities and other things the BG and their offshoots can do ease into magic (at least by my definition). It's a bit like the debate of whether psychic powers in sci-fi are considered "magic." Again, depends on your definition, but from a perspective of writing and world building, if you're designing the system with its strengths, weaknesses, and limitations, then it's effectively magic. I would further speculate that things like no-rooms and no-ships are properly labeled as "magitech," but, again, that's just me. Personally, I'm a fan of "sufficiently analyzed magic" (to quote Foglio). Because human minds are built to recognize patterns, and exploit them. But I'm also the type of person that loves trying to figure out how stage magicians do their tricks, and admires the skill that goes into creating the wonder.

"There's magic in the metal, there's magic in us all" -Manowar

There is certainly esoteric philosophy in Dune and some influence from occult magick - for example, Frank Herbert constructed his own ‘Dune Tarot’ into the fabric of the story. He speaks about this in one of his interviews on RU-vid.

If the Ixians can block prescience using technology, it does indeed imply that magic and science exist in the same system. Cool video.

Holtzman's work is not understood, it simply functions.

I thought that Dune's prescience was just pattern recognition cranked up to 11, just as the Bene Gesserit Voice is just psychological manipulation cranked up to 11.

Maybe the magic are the friends you make along the way.

I'm not typically one for nit picking, but quantum physics deals on the scale of the *subatomic* not *microscopic* , the particles in question are too small to reflect light, so it impossible to spot with a *microscope* . *Sigh*, ok I got that out of my system...

Would have been an excellent opportunity for a discussion of Asimov's quotation, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Just, in the Dune books, the technology is genetics and the human mind.

I find Dune more of a science fantasy rather than science fiction. The story took place so far in the future and there’s barely any focus on technology. A lot of the things are mystical. In that regard, Dune is in the same category as Star Wars with force powers and etc.

At first I didn’t like this channel but it’s grown on me. I don’t even like dune. Something about this guy seems so genuine.

The story itself is pure magic 😄

Dude your analysis is so beautiful and so integrating of many schools of thought to making points of answering questions. Bravo

The only possible standard we can use to measure science vs. magic is by comparing to the real world, but we don't know everything about science in the real world yet. Therefore anything we can't explain using our real life knowledge is therefore magic. The distinction between magic and fictional science really comes down to whether the author wants to use technobabble to attempt to make it make sense or not, which is always going to be a fruitless endeavor. One the reasons I struggle to find enjoyment in soft sci-fi that pretends to be hard sci-fi (like Dune) is that it takes itself too seriously instead of just admitting that its making stuff up wholecloth. Unless you can actually explain to me how the Voice would work in a logical sense, I'm putting it on the same shelf as psykers shooting lightning bolts out of their mind in Warhammer 40k. Which is awesome, I love 40k and I don't think psychic powers need to be perfectly explained, but its just so much more fun when the media is leaning into it instead of trying to justify why what its talking about isn't fantastical. And no, saying "its just a more overt version of humans manipulating each other though speech every day" doesn't cut it. Herbert could have put an explanation in there like "The Bene Geserit were gene scientists and they put a gene into most of humankind thousands of years ago that makes them susceptible to mind control through specific voice tones" but he didn't do that. He left it mysterious on purpose, so he wants mystery, but he wants to sit back and say that the mystery doesn't qualify it as magic. I think he really just wanted to write a fantasy epic in space but wanted to set himself apart somehow.

For internally consistent fantasy stories where the characters treat magic scientifically, check out Harry Turtledove. He even has one series where theoretical sorcerers work to unify the “laws” of similarity and of contagion, and they feel just like theoretical physicists working to unify general relativity and the Standard Model.

Great vid. On a related note, I'm on my second reading of Dune ... I tend to regard the Fremen as less superstitious than I did on my first read ... like they are onto something and everyone else is confused. Paul IS the Lisan al-Gaib. The Missionara Protectiva is kind of a foil ... with or without it, Paul is some kind of Chosen One. Whether that is natural or supernatural ... again probably a matter of semantics.

This was superbly done. You covered a great deal in a short time. I'd love to see you expand on this and present it in a formal paper or even at a convention. I'd back you with a donation for this specific goal if you decide to go this way with it.

Hey Quinn, I really enjoy your channel and the fact that you are actually being meticulous and analytical about the sci-fi classics you're reviewing. It's often the case, at least from my experience, that many reviewers on youtube are trying to provide a fan-boy service in relation to such series, without actually trying to discuss the ideas behind them. This here is a very interesting subject. While it might be a matter of semantics, as some might argue, that doesn't bring the connotation that you cant have a precise argument based on precise definitions. While I was doing my MA in philosophy there were several occasions in which I was wondering about magic and the metaphysical assumptions behind it. You discuss the problem from more of an epistemic perspective(how magic is known), but it is possible to discuss it in terms of its metaphysics as well(what form of existence would be necessary for magic). So let me try to present the problem from the second perspective. Often, historically, when philosophers talk about existence, they rely on two basic concepts: substance and ontology. Substance, in the philosophical sense of the word, you might think of simply as the most basic thing existing in the world, while ontology is the list of those basic existing things. Different models of the world, be it the actual or imagined one, can be based on very different ontologies. For example, I might think that matter is the most basic element of reality and thus, every object, quality, and interaction can be reduced to it or deduced from it. For such a world, its ontology, or its list of basic existing things, would describe only matter. Descartes, for example, would say that there are two substances: matter and consciousness, the idea being that, as substances, they are irreducible to each other. Now we might ask this question: what type of ontology would be necessary for a world, which can be described scientifically? There is no easy or short answer here, but, for the sake of this not turning into a full-blown annoying lecture, let's propose three. First, the ontology of the world would need to include one single substance. Second, everything in this world would need to be under causal closure. In other words, every object, quality, and relation produced by this substance has to be locked in a cause and effect relationship. Third, there are principles(or laws) governing these causal relationships, which are fully reducible to, or as, qualities of the basic substance. Now, why can't we fit magic within that system? Well, because magic breaks relations of cause and effect. In order for it to be described, it would be required for us to assume a second substance in our ontology(consciousness or transcendent forms/names of things), which is irreducible to the first and is not causally related to it. Now, let's observe the world of Dune. If there is something seemingly supernatural about it, it is connected with consciousness and its abilities. For us to accept these abilities as magical, we would need to accept that they and their effects are causally isolated from the causality of the physical world. They clearly are not, for The Spice which causes them is physical, part of physical(and biological) processes. As such, these abilities are part of a single web of causal relationships, stemming from one basic ontological substance: matter. Therefore, they can't be understood as magical, from a metaphysical perspective.

I love the way how you explain and your voice makes it easy to listen. ✌🏽

Another very enjoyable video there. I have to thank you, because of your videos, I finally resolved to actually read Dune. Onto Dune Messiah now, and I am loving it. Thanks Quinn!

I really enjoy your work man, you've got a great presentation style.

So happy you're making this style of video again. Been too longggg

Another very nicely put together analysis. Keep it up man!

I believe there was a shift from supernatural to natural in Star Wars Ep. IV-VI and I-III. What was measured with a scientific doohickey as "mitichlorians" was originally simply called "The Force."

I'm of a similar opinion to you. There are certain differences in mechanics, but it's ultimately relative. Clark's Third Law comes to mind. Thanks for the indepth video.

Quinn’s channel is really one of the gems of RU-vid 😭

Great content. One of your best vids, IMO!

Your voice is amazing, Please do audiobooks and voicework in shows/movies/games.

As far as a sci-fi fictional world's (or even just a modern one, similar to our own) take on magic, I've always liked the way that the cartoon "Gargoyles" took. One line that still stands out in my mind is a character encouraging the fight against a magical force whereas most of the protagonist had little to no connection to make other than what was naturally available to them, saying something like "Energy is energy, whether magical or man-made." I just always thought "ok, that makes sense." Plus, I think it avoids the downfall of a lot of modern takes on magic, that being that there aren't a lot of clear rules and modernity and science can't seem to hold up against anything magical very well.

"Always in motion, the future is!". - Yoda 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

This video is awesome, thank you very much for putting so much effort into investigating this concept

Fun analysis - I wonder how great Quinn'd be analyzing philosophy.

Keep it up bro. Been with you since the game of thrones days and your channel went up in quality of content when you started dune and changed to Quinn ideas! Keep it up bro and I'm still waiting for the chapter house. No rush just excited for the final book. Meanwhile I started hunters of dune.... its OK but not full of philosophy like the first 6 books.

I think Frank Herbert did not intend for the superhuman abilities such as those of the Bene Gesserit, the Kwisatz Haderach or the Honored Matres to be viewed as magic, but I do believe that he must have been aware of the fact that there would be readers of his work who would do just that. To me, it also boils down to what genre of fiction one considers Dune to be: science fiction, fantasy or something in between. Fantasy deals mostly in the inexplicable or impossible, while also mostly maintaining an in-story consistency. Magic can be a centerpiece in fantasy. Science fiction deals mostly in what is feasible, if not with our current understanding of the laws of nature. In sofar as there is magic in science fiction, it has to be explained in-story. However, the genres are just two sides of the same coin, namely fiction, and not all works of literature generally considered to be fantasy or science fiction fall firmly in either category. Say for example you have a system of metahuman powers. If we are writing a story that is (mostly) science fiction, we would have to explain it thoroughly in-story. We could tell our readers that those with metahuman powers have the ability to affect the universe on a quantum level by affecting the probability or by influencing the outcome of such things as quantum entanglement. Perhaps this is achieved by nanites or other artificial enhancements in one's body and mind, perhaps not. The fact that it is explained to a certain amount, enough for the reader to get a grasp of how a person with such powers draws on them, and that there is a (somewhat) scientific explanation for them would classify a work of fiction as science fiction. If instead, we were writing a story that is (mostly) fantasy we would approach the same system differently. We would write that the character just imposes his or her will on the things around him or her, both inanimate and animate. With a single word or a wave of his or her hand entire armies or edifices are torn down. Enemies are choked to death with just a single gesture, or would be struck by lightning from his or her hand. Or the magic user would utter an incantation and life would spring up where there was none previously. There may be a an explanation of the origins of metahuman powers to a certain extent, or the cost of using them. However, in the end it would be a plot device most certainly way beyond our curent understanding of the in-story universe as a reader. To me, Dune fits in the category of fiction that sits mostly on the side of science fiction, but with enough things left to the imagination of the reader that it is not hard or pure science fiction. Which to me is the essence of all great literature: it defies true and firm categorization. And it shows: after having read the first book of Dune over 25 times (not kidding here), I still manage to find new layers to explore.

Trying to read the quote with the stars moving in the background is marketing my eyes trip out. Great vid though! Love your work.

I like how you present the Dune mythos. Your presentations are a great primer for the books for those who are curious enough to read 'em. I've read the series once and it was quite the romance.. Chapterhouse left me unresolved....it was all a dream? I loved the character of Supreme Bashar Miles Teg yet that story remains unresolved without the original author. I understand that dune has continued to expand without the original author for the past thirty-plus years with his son Brian and several writers filling in the history. Admirable, yet....something I ignore as it doesn't meet the strange, bleak and potentially possible world Frank created. My question to you is; Where and when does your best DUNE story end? God Emperor? Heretics? Children? Sisterhood? Your love of the the initial story is fantastic, even if I feel you bias the story towards the first three books...well..ok...four books. I hope you discuss the two books past GEOD...im sure it's already on your radar. Keep up the love, mate!

Another Great video!!! I truly LOVE your work!!! But, because of my LOVE for your work, I must yet again ask the question......Ultimate Guide to Dune: Chapterhouse........I swear you said it would be out 12/19/2020......please......an update at least??

These videos are fun.

Just because something isn’t understood, doesn’t make it magic. Just because something can be explained doesn’t make it any less wonderous. Magic and science are merely lenses by which the world is viewed and explained.

Thanks for this video. Very interesting.

Dune is a medieval fantasy with magical mind control and dragons. It was ground breaking at the time because it became the LOTR of science fiction, but yes "the Voice" is magical adamantium plot armor.

Paul's prescience is the result of spice saturation couple to his mentat training. The limited prescience of the navigators is prescisely limited because they are no mentats. That is why the Bene Geserit feared Duncan be a Kwisatz Haderach in Heretics of Dune... By awaking him to his past, they knew he had mentat capabilities buried in there

It's funny, Your paraphrashing Fritz Leiber in the many lectures he gave on writing Fantasy. "It can be impossible. but it must be consistent." ( I'm parahasing him. LOL)

Awesome intro!

Correction, Quantum Mechanics and Classical Physics do indeed work together, in fact classical physics is shown to be a approximation of qm, its General Relativity that contradicts QM.

Great essay. Made my day.

Inject the dune content into my veins Love the videos Quinn!

This video feels a bit like an “Isaac Arthur” video, good stuff.

I'm of the mind that it has more to do with how much you want to actually consider the universe the story is being told in. The use of swords, knives, pellet guns and nobility gives it a medieval feel where magic would be a norm. Then the spaceships and multi-planet background of the story gives it a science fiction feel. Giant worms can fit in either scenario. One of the reasons Dune is great literature is that allows the user to go either way and still enjoy the overall story.

Hey man. . Can you let us know when the Ultimate Chapterhouse video is coming?

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic ~ Arthur C. Clarke

Love the dune content

I think of magic and science are two languages used to describe a cosmos in which there are strange areas where the two overlap. Rod Serling said it best “It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge.”

Good discussion. You get a thumps up, for the Aquinas quote alone 👍. My only caveat is that you should do more to define magic, because magic = unscientific is not necessarily a universally accepted definition.

I feel like much of the New Wave and New Weird movements in SFF blur such boundaries often. For example, in China Miéville’s Bas-Lag novels, something akin to magic exists called thaumaturgy, which is a form of energy that comes in quanta-like units called thaumaturgons which is channeled through an individual’s body for them to use. Or in Philip Pullman’s His Dark Materials and The Book of Dust, the subatomic particle Dust which bestows consciousness and is also dark matter is matter by behaviour but spirit by essence. Dust is used to impart various magical abilities throughout the multiverse of the books, but is under lain by external forces beyond human understanding.

Awesome job!

Great video, as always. One suggestion, if I may; read the passages slower... don't rush over the words.

And I quote, “Fucking Magnets, How Do They Work?”

"The official Google definition of the word 'magic'" Oh man, please let's not go out of our way to allow old words to be redefined by the corp

Excellent thoughts as always, “ Magic is only something that’s science has not resolved yet.” The practitioners of the disciplines in Dune understand where there “magic” comes from. The ordinary humans do not. For example, the sisterhood are still called witches.

Hey Quinn, I was wondering if you have seen the Spicediver fan edit of the 1984 dune? You can find it on YT. I was just curious of your opinion of it? I liked it better than the original. Just throwing it out there, love your channel, thanks

It's semantics in the sense that it is possible to make a decent argument for both the "yes" and the "no" side if we so choose. Personally, however, I find it takes much more effort and handwaving to convincingly argue for "no magic", than it does to admit the notion of a little bit of magic in the Dune universe. So I take the lazy way out, and say that "yes, sort of a little bit, but nothing that you have to worry about."

Thank you, Quinn’s Ideas.

Love your stuff Sir, but my inner teacher can't help but point out that Google isn't technically a source, it's a search engine. There is no "official google definition" of anything, only what the algorithm ranks as the most relevant webpage. That being said, fascinating as always to hear your thoughts on the Dune Universe!

I have so much respect for you Quinn. You're a really deep thinker. Too bad you weren't there to advise on the later Dune novels.

“A technology is an orchestration of [captive] phenomena to our use” (Brian W. Arthur, “The Nature of Technology”, p53). Magic captures obscure phenomena and orchestrates it to some use by the wielder. Magic is a technology regardless of whether the nature of the underlying phenomena is fully understood or not. Semantically, we call anything that uses an unknown or not well understood phenomena, magic, and anything that uses a well understood phenomena technology. However, it’s all tech to me. “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic” (Arthur C. Clarke).

The problem with the supernatural is that one could argue that nothing is beyond nature, merely our understanding of it.

I suggest reading “magic realism” literature. I remember I read many years ago “The Aleph” by Jorge Luis Borges. The explanation of what the aleph is helped me to understand what prescience is and why is so difficult to explain and handle.

I once heard an interesting definition of magic that rather corroborates your preternatural semantics: magic is the ability to make the improbable [circumstance] a reality. And in many ways, that is the understanding what Paul says about prescience, but entwined with an understanding that you can apply energy to change the natural equilibrium so that from the new state emerges the improbable. Electrolysis, for example, applies electrical energy in water so that the improbable free hydrogen and hydroxy ions are perceptible. And its that possible application of willpower and effort that is missing from Pauls explanation to Stilgar. It might have been implied that their current efforts are indeed the most practical application of energy.

Once magic is understood, it becomes science. That is very true, magic might simply be science we don't understand yet. But my question for you is: Once you do understand it, what name will you give it? Why can't magic be the name of the science that allows one to break the laws of physics and the Universe. We have been calling it that for thousands of years why can't we just keep calling it magic and still be scientific about it? Great video as always.

True be told befor I saw this vid i never heard of the term preternatural but you explain it very well.

With the arguments about how "It is all a natural function", then worlds like Forgotten Realms also have no magic, as it is all natural functions and manipulation of a real thing. Dune has 'magic', or nothing does.

The whole genetic memory is magic, yes i could get the waters transfering memory's but then Alia somehow unlocks the baron's memories, who had never tasted the waters.

I also follow David Lynch and his daily weather report came in right next to this, which I found amusing. ;)

This is definitely an interesting discussion. I mean, how many series that include magic have whole institutions dedicated to the "study of magic." From Hogwarts in Harry Potter, to the Mages Guild, the College of Winterhold and the Psyjic order in Elder Scrolls, the Scholia Arcana and the entire academies of gnomes in Amalur. I've seen webcomics where the spells are even expressed in writing as complex formula and the classes run like physics departments, all treated with the rigour of science yet always considered of something other than the material world. It could be a vague distinction that "magical" energied are separated usually from "material/real/physical" energy in the real world maybe, or something. Depends almost entirely in the author and the fiction and the semantics. I had a thought for my own writing to potentially tackle the difference. A music file plays sound but there is metadata on the track. Author, year, album, track listing etc. None of that is encoded in the actual song. Perhaps in some settings, "physical" is the music of the thing, while magic is the code that sorts it by its underlying nature. Or maybe music is magical, beyond hard facts of who, when, and where and is itself entirely subjective. Listen I have no idea I'm just word-vomiting writing brainstorms here.

Frank Herbert talked about prescience as an experience where the prescient observer (paul, or any other) floats amid an ocean of waves of time, only being able to see above and beyond those chaotically undulating waves relative to the observer's position. mentats saw time differently, seeking to predict events based on observations (like in the foundation series). our perception of time is a human construct. event linearity is real, but our perception of it through space and time is subjective and can be muddied. like heat-waves on top of cars in the summer... heavy

Fantastic video

"Any technology far advanced enough is indistinguishable from magic." (Arthur C. Clarke) or, as somebody in the Thor movies said: "Magic is just science we do not understand yet."

12:00 This is actually a point debated by many fantasy writers and fans. Brandon Sanderson's First Law of Magic is that a magical system must be described to the degree it is used to solve problems. His contention is magic without clear laws is a Deus ex Machina the writer uses cheaply to get out of jail. Whereas soft magic is fine in a series like Conan, or LotR, where magic is rarely used on the behalf of the heroes. OTOH is Steven Erikson, who says (without naming him as such) that the Hard Magic view reduces magic to the role of technology, and it undermines the very nature of magic in myth-making: the influence of the unexplained and unexplainable upon our world. That we all, to some degree, wield power and authority that we don't fully understand. And its effects go far beyond our expectations. Myths should encourage that sense of wonder. What's more the shamanistic view of magic common in history (as opposed to more alchemical views that were actually early attempts at science) no two practitioners are the same, or work the same. So Hard Magic does not align with anthropology and human experience. All that tangent has a point in that Erikson came to writing fantasy via Dune. Gardens of the Moon, the 1st Malazan Book of the Fallen, deliberately borrowed elements of Dune's narrative stylings. (Which is why many who have read only traditional fantasy bounce off it so hard.) Also, both were interested in the question, "What is history? How is it formed?" And the influence of events beyond our rational comprehension is a significant part of that.

Sooo...sort of? Great discusion on preternatural! I learned a lot:) 💚🤘🏽

One of your best videos. For an example of "magic" in a Fantasy setting that is perhaps more science than magic, see the books set in the Cosmere by Brandon Sanderson. Especially the Stormlight Archive. Ironically, the difference between how Sanderson describes surges and bindings in his Fantasy series and the way Herbert talks about prescience and Voice in Dune is that the former follow almost mathematical set of rules and the latter is more philosophy than science.

Here is a question I've only just thought of. I only read Dune once, but I remember mention of exiled Houses and Paul even said that the number of these Houses is actually larger than the number within the Landsrad. Are the exiles ever mentioned in any of the other books and do they play any role in the story?

One way of thinking about the distinction between magic and science, even when magic is portrayed as following precise and knowable laws, is that magic involves *semantic relations being causal* . In other words, X has causal power to bring about or have an effect on Y because X is *about* Y. An example would be harming someone's shoulder by sticking a pin into the shoulder of a voodoo doll representing the person; it's the meaning-relation or reference-relation between the voodoo doll and the real person that enables the causal relation to happen. Likewise for reciting spells, etc. One upshot -- welcome or unwelcome as the case may be -- of this way of thinking about magic is that any account of the mind/body relation other than reductive materialism will apparently count as magical.

I can't wait to see this movie Dune.🌎💯❤🤯👍

I like the video and idea

You pulled me back right at the end, bravo. I was getting lost in the discussion of the semantics of the differences of the natural laws. I agree I don't believe Herbert wanted to push any kind of magical agenda. He would certain want us to understand that there are things outside most persons' understanding. (But could we not get there cognitively or make a machine to translate for us given enough time? He doesn't answer this, as his civilization doesn't get past the 100k+ year mark, though he does show that humanity will usually find a way to adapt to survive.) He didn't want that as part of his teachings. It was about how despite the extremes to which we could go in different directions ie biology(Tleilax), technology(Ix), warfare(the Fremen or Sardukar or Fish Speakers), etc. that we would still be held to the consequences of our actions. We'll never find that one thing that puts us outside of ourselves to truly make us gods. At least not while we're bound to this dimension. One quote that I have thought upon often of his “There is no escape-we pay for the violence of our ancestors.” Sorry for the ramble. Edit: I also want to point out how much I appreciate your thoughtful and often unique analysis of the material. I may not agree with everything you mention, but I certain give it serious consideration. As a Dune fan for the past 20 years, your channel has really reminded me of how much I appreciated Frank's novels(though I haven't read them all outside the Dune series). Keep up the excellent work, Quinn!

Not related to this topic, but do you think it would be helpful to the cause if more people go and see WB's new Tom & Jerry movie? I'm not very interested in it per se, but I feel it could potentially encourage WB to release Dune sooner. Great channel BTW

“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic” - Author C Clarke. Can be applied here. In one sense, 'technology' is the evolved techniques of the group that developed them (ie Bene Gesserite) relative to others; but in another sense, the whole setting of the Dune universe that takes place thousands of years in the future.

I never thought there was magic in Dune, as much as Humans who are psychologically WAY more advanced than us. The same way we are now a lot smarter than say, someone in the Middle Ages, humanity in Dune has had 10,000 years to continue developping. And the Butlerian Jihad accelerated this exponentially. And they can do things which we would nowadays consider "prescience" or "telepathy" or "vision".

Some things are really hard to explain as scientifically possible like having the memories of ancestors or slowing down time and teleporting in hand to hand combat.

Magic in Dune? Frank Herbert: It is something difficult to explain when you don't have the direct perspective of a near prescient awareness of the universe on a macroscopic level. As well as the subtle subconscious manipulations that can be attained with the right understanding of human behavior. Brian Herbert: GUESS WHAT?! But before the original books, there were telekinetic sorceresses. And the original guild navigator could teleport anywhere at will. Trust me, I read my dad's notes. David Lynch: Paul can crack the ground with a yell, and summon rain at will (never mind this would kill the sandworms he needs to enact his political takeover).

Very subtle view.

Can I recommend Jack Vance's Dying Earth series for it's view on technomagic that deeply influenced Dungeons and Dragons

Magick is the application of the knowledge of sacred fractal geometry of space and time cymatic energetics and the relationships of consciousness (at various scales) with the energetic flow or bending of those patterns.

I got into a discussion with my wife about the difference between science fiction and fantasy fiction and which category Dune would fall in, and this was at the center of it. The more I tried to argue that Dune is sci fi, the more I realized that the distinction between the two is mostly down to setting and recycled tropes. Both are alternate universes with altered natural laws, just done in a particular style.

i like to think prescience is an experience the brain produces when it processes the hyperanalysis characters in dune are able to achieve through various training. an uchiha in the dune universe would have prescience.

It’s only magic if we assume the laws of physics in a fictional world is the same as ours