It's Time to Fix Sacred Music at Mass 

That's not..... quite true. There are traces of Jewish cantillation in some of the repertoire's music, such as Dies Irae. But Gregorian chant has its entire own history, originating in the 8th century as a fusion of the liturgical music of Charlemagne's Carolingian churches and an earlier style of Roman chant that had developed in the city of Rome.

Dr. K is the most honest and knowledgeable theologian on the internet.

So well stated. I wish bishops would direct this topic in the parishes.

And so now you go to the traditional Latin Mass where you find it?

@philcortens5214 I would consider it if there's one near me. But I'm not sure that's necessarily the answer. Unlike the "rad trads", I am NOT a TLM purist. My first experience with the Catholic Church was a Novus Ordo mass in 2020, done in a very tasteful way. I was blown away by it! I think the Novus Ordo can be done in a way that holds onto many traditional elements and sacred music, and it's more than fine. How I wish there were more composers like Paul Jernberg, and that more parishes would use sacred music of that type!

@@donm-tv8cm I keep starting a reply and it keeps getting erased. So I'll just get right to the point. (You should know) the differences between the two 'rites' or 'forms' are not inconsequential, the Novus Ordo being (at best, on my view) a watered-down version of a time-tested treasure. It wasn't broke, why was it 'fixed'? What needed fixing was not the liturgy, but the hearts and minds of the priests and people.

@@donm-tv8cm I've been trying to respond to your comments. Did you receive my previous reply?

I was involved in NO "music ministry" for years myself and have had very much the same experience.

This is so true

Applause makes me want to fashion a whip of cords.

🤺☦🇷🇺For all you Protestants and Vatican II Catholics (=Protestants) out there: What do you think church music is a private program for your tastes? No, it ain't complicated at all, in fact it is very simple! 1. Protestant music (which includes Evangelical) is heretic secularist nonsense disguised as Christian. 2. Music for church is music that suppose to be passed down, just like oral Tradition and everything, from the church fathers! You don't understand the basics. The traditional Liturgy from Roman times is what Liturgy must be, and everything else is heresy. 3. Church music isn't even "music", it is PRAYER - holy eternal and never changing, just like the church style decorations and everything. Get it good inside your heads, that the whole world is in constant change, except from the church - because God's throne and kingdom is beyond space and time and never changes!!

While I do not question the validity of the new Mass, I also have come to the realization that it is not fixable. As harsh as it sounds, I think that trying to introduce chant and polyphony to the Ordinary Form is like loaning your Bentley to a frat party.

Yes. This 1000x. I know that my parish has some antiphons, but I don’t know how to introduce chant (or learn it myself). I bought By Flowing Waters and The Proper of the Mass, but I feel somewhat helpless as what to do with them sometimes.

Seconded; how do we get STARTED.

Organs sound like brassy crap. Greg chant is cool

​@@acrxsls1766 Brass conveys power

Brass sounds like crap compared to the human voice or even a simple piano. Even a harp sounds better

@@acrxsls1766 Someone was a woodwind player in highschool

Nothing like the sound of a good organ combined with human voices whose hearts love God!

Now that’s a new kind of low. A good exiting/ recessional song, though; it sends people running for the door to a land far, far away.

@@jefffinkbonner9551 🤣🤣🤣

@andrewvenables 😮😮😮

You must be joking?!!! Sancta Maria…. Ora pro nobis….🎶

I actually like 'When the Saints Go Marching In' but I think there's certainly a time and a place where it's appropriate

Return back home , you've fallen into apostasy Repent and become a member of the true body of Christ

At our ordinary form parish, we sing Gregorian chant propers, but also hymns. It is a goal in the present liturgy to engage the participation of the community, but it is also important to have beauty and the mass texts. We try to thread that needle.

it sounds like his list might just be short enough to accomplish that.

@@Gwyll_ArboghastA bit snarky? The list of wonderful music to listen to is vast. First, there is a very long choral tradition of sacred music from hundreds of composers over centuries. There is the Sacred Harp tradition of hymns. There are collections of hymns from many different denominations, which include many folk tunes. There is genuine folk music. Beyond the sacred, there is an array of wonderful, non-sacred early music, much of it instrumental, from the medieval, renaissance and baroque periods. There is the chant found in many churches worldwide. I am sure he would include all of it.

It's in this one of his videos: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Qe1c-4Tp2JE.html

you're right, we should only sing metaphysically

I asked the guy who does the Sat. Evening Mass music if he knew Panis Angelicus and he didn't. When I tried to play it. sung by Domingo on my phone for him he couldn't listen. That to me is one of the most beautiful hymns in the Church and this dope, who is a good musician actually, couldn't bear it.

Fortunately, those languages have long, deep, and proud musical traditions that are worth gleaning from. Translating songs from other languages may be very difficult as you say.

I don’t know about that, Russian Orthodox liturgical music (which is for the most part done in Slavonic) is arguably the best sacred music in the world. German, on the other hand, I know little about, other than that they have a rich operatic heritage (which must count for something).

(((Warhol))), I'm sure. He was a CIA asset and fraud. Nothing he did was benevolent.

There are reverent NO Masses which have the traditional beauty and even some Latin. From what I see online though, it looks like the NO in America is usually irreverent, so I wonder if it’s a bit of a geographical divide, where some places saw the NO as an excuse to modernize…

@@alexabihabib8215 The NO is a Protestant experimental Mass. It is a universal problem. At WYD, the kids were asked to write what they wanted from the Synod. They overwhelming asked for a return to the Traditional Mass and sound doctrine.

Altar, not alter.

@@jayhunstiger3609 thanks for the spell check...I could use...living in mexico for long time...I replacing my ingles for spanish... como se dice en espanol "saludos desde mexico"?

@@jimranallo686Saludos desde Arizona. Many of in Arizona know Spanish.

@@desertrat1111 very good to hear from you...take good care

And we love Dan Shutte, just not their songs, those we do not like

It's my understanding that a line can be drawn at about the baroque era when music began to be written exclusively in the tonal system of major/minor in such a way to be distinct from what we call the modes. The ionian mode uses the same notes as the major scale, and aeolian as natural minor; but in the tonal system the natural minor is rarely used without the raised 7th degree or raised 6th + 7th, which I think implies a different harmonic approach of intensifying the V-i cadence. Maybe we're using the terminology differently in our views of music history, but I think there's a real distinction here. The earlier modal music (aeolian, locrian, ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian) certainly sounds different to my ear than the tonal (major/minor) approach that came to dominate from the 16th - 19th centuries, and even most jazz and pop I've come across fits better with the tonal perspective.

@@roca967 yes, i admitted there is the movement toward the predominance of natural maj and min. but by the most modern (kind of strict) definition, those are modes. you speak of the natural minor being rarely used without raising the 6th or 7th degree. i was originally taught "melodic minor" as raising those degrees on the way up and dropping them on the way down, which is a tiny bit closer to the older conception of modes having melodic rules; to my understanding, most modern theory dispenses with that idea and calls "melodic minor" the one with permanent sharp 6 and 7. i remind you that writing in ~"modes"~ never went away, though major and minor came to predominate. in other words, there is a movement in time away from the medieval conception of modes and toward the reduced definition of a mode being just the base in a scale. what i hear you saying is that there is a place between the medieval and now that has an intermediate idea of mode. i agree, but i would say that you can still largely apply the modern idea of mode to any era, regardless of how you could also apply a different idea of mode.

Plato was aware of the harm done by the modes corresponding to the major and minor keys.

Cool. But the Church actually teaches that it's the supreme instrument for sacred music. Vatican II says, "In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man's mind to God and to higher things." Tra Le Solicitudini says that it's the only appropriate instrument at mass.

He wrote beautiful music for the Ordinary of the Mass.

Whelp, all southern gospel is demonic?

Your comment is all assertion and no argument. You don't support anything you say with evidence, scripture, or Church authority. You claims are entirely subjective about what you like and what you think works. But the magisterium, the tradition of the Church, and the timeless practices of the Church (and a variety of other cults of worship) are against you in that.

Charismatics aren't Catholics, and Protestant music is gay

Hymns are based on scripture and tradition. If they are played in front of a Bishop, that is an endorsement from the Magisterium itself. Vatican II joyfully accepts the contemporary arts. The former Archbishop Chaput stated that Vatican II was the greatest grace God bestowed upon the Church in the Twentieth Century. It was more important than Mary's appearance at Fatima! He was a living element of the Magisterium. Vatican II IS Catholicism. All artists embrace their time. If Beethoven wrote a bunch of Gregorian Chants, he never would have made an impact. By embodying Romanticism, Beethoven created the standard of Classical Music. His influence can be demonstrated. The compositions of other composters influenced by him are EVIDENCE. There isn't a music historian out their worth listening to that wouldn't say Beethoven was one of the most significant composers ever to have lived. At the most important moment in his 9th Symphony, the speaker looks up to the stars and sees evidence of God's existence. That is highly evangelical! It didn't take place in chant. Beethoven's text is evidence admissible in a court of law. Record sales, the fees being paid by churches to play hymns and views on RU-vid are EVIDENCE. It can be easily counted. The calculable influence contemporary hymns have had on faith in America is unmissable and a clear net positive. In my previous comment, I cited EVENTS which I attended. I was a WITNESS to those events. I could be cross-examined in a court of law. A jury would determine that those events took place. That the BEST evidence that there is. If one were to record a bunch of Catholics joyfully singing contemporary hymns and being inspired by a message based on The Gospel, EVIDENCE would be created. It isn't subjective because hundreds of unique individuals would be experiencing the same phenomenon. The Bishops, including the Bishop of Rome, the priests, the composer(s), the music director, the musicians and the generous faithful laity think it WORKS. Gregorian Chant had a beginning centuries after Christ's public ministry. It has a sacred function. Contemporary hymns also have a beginning and also have a sacred function. "Seek ye first " is also timeless. I expect it will be sung 500 years from now. Tradition is what is "handed on". Contemporary hymns are wonderfully inspiring faith-based works of art that help proclaim the Good News. I am very glad that many of them have been handed on to the following generations. They are now a part of the tradition of the Church. The long term success of the hymns tells me that they have received God's blessing. I think that is the best endorsement one could ever hope for. @@BrianHoldsworth

If you want contemporary Lutheran music, go to the Lutheran church. Nobody goes to a Catholic cathedral hoping to hear “What a Beautiful Name”.

@@MrSottobanco Regardless of how Contemporary hymns makes you feel, most of it is simply not fitting for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It is not all about us and our feelings, it is about giving our best to God, and that includes our music. Most contemporary music played and sung at Mass is anything but the best. I cringe when I hear most of it.

Music in the Mass shouldn't be one of them. Guitars and modern music are an abomination

​@@acrxsls1766He should definitely stick to talking about music unfortunately he hasn't.

@@halleylujah247 The music is integrally part of the mass... which touches on the issue of Sacrosanctum Concilium and the problems that came about after the council. It's all related so it's natural he's going to talk about the authority of the Pope and ecclesiology and all of that.

at this point, I think Lofton et al are more like gaslighters than "popesplainers".

Who cares who he thinks the Pope is? Don't you have your own sins to worry about?

Bye Felicia 🤣

That’s defamation calling him a schismatic.

If you've been around here long enough, you'd know that he doesn't denounce someone's ideas just because they have other ideas he disagrees with.

Why do you say he has "illgot" profits?