Congratulations to Michael Vogel and the rest of the Berry In The Big City team!🎉 I’m so glad BITBC got nominated for a GLAAD award!🤩 BITBC, Geek Buddies, Huck, & Blueberry Forever!💕
The Rubicon that I can't cross or understand with Zack Snyder are the number of people who make some kind of case that Snyder's films have a depth, a seriousness, and a genuine philosophical approach, and yet they have none of that. To Vogel's point, they play at having those things. Snyder talks about them having those things. But there is no trace of it in the films beyond the surface. Tremendous visualist, but his films are frustrating because of that point. I agree that he would be better served by having stronger writers who help hold him to account with the stories.
I'm sure I watched an interview with Snyder where he said (paraphrasing furiously here) that his fascination with comic books was all about the art and not about the writing. And for me, the most obvious example of that is Watchmen, which was slavishly faithful to the images, but failed to capture the spirit of the story.
Zack is wrong about the craziness of the streaming model; his math doesn't even check out. People aren't paying $10 per movie they watch on Netflix, they pay that price for a subscription that lets them watch whatever Netflix offers. He would have to scale down by the pennies (less than, most likely) to get the math he wants to compare that viewership to the box office. The streaming model, across all mediums, has proven to have a wide gap between its outward facing numbers and its actual profitability compared to physical/in-person experiences.
@@JohnRochaSays I understand his argument, but in the quote you read, he makes the comparison to his audience size using Barbie’s metrics as a basis to say more people watched, but that wouldn’t necessarily be true no matter how he sliced it. It doesn’t even sound like he’s confident in the fact that those 80-90 million views came from individual accounts, and I wouldn’t assume that to be true either because that would bring the value of the views down. Theoretically, he could be right, but it doesn’t seem likely, given that a box office count is a more direct reflection of how many people actually saw the film than a Netflix number.
@@JohnRochaSaysbut watch numbers are nowhere near the same as people going to a theater. Also watch numbers can and are played with . The prime example only 28% that counted as watching rebel moon finished it. That it might of auto started and ran for a few minutes before someone turned it off counts as a watch .
@@jewscoI mean yes and no. My only “no” to what you said is that last part about watch metrics being played with, cuz even if you pay to see a movie and walk out 15min in, your ticket purchase is still added the money the movie’s making. I’ve never quite understood that portion of the streaming vs box office debate
@@famousthaneus9810 walk outs of theaters are a lot lower than out play starting a show and someone coming back a few minutes later and turning it off . Also even if you walk out you still chose to come to that movie versus auto play. Finally if you walk out within 15- 20 minutes you can get your money back
“That was pre-therapy Rocha”😄😂 “I don't do maths”🤣🤣🤣 John, it's a fantastic argument Michael made because, “You know what's so good about the truth? Everyone knows what it is however long they've lived without it.”🤭😅 Another thing about Synder is that he has this; “My movies are perfect, but it was someone else or something else's fault”. There's no evolution or growth because it's never his fault if a movie he makes doesn't work - so he is comfortable just copying and pasting movies that look great. I've always wondered - if Zack Synder remade a silent movie from the 1920s or 1930s, would the audience understand the story (with no sound at all), or would they still say; “oh that looked amazing but I don't know what it all means”
The problem with snyder is after riding the high at the height of his cultural cache as soon as he got full creative control, the thing he built his *entire* indentity on for basically a decade, he proceeded to almost immediately fumble the ball making two of his weakest films when finally given a blank cheque (suckerpunch is still his weakest but I was really disappointed by how premise-unfulfilling and a miss Army Of The Dead was, and as a big fan of dawn of the dead doubly so, and whilst i guess rebel moon 1 was "better" it was less interesting because it was so derivative and paced perplexingly) it crumbles the whole persona in my opinion. You can no longer live in a world where you can pretend that studios are 100% at fault all the time for snyder's flaws (and via his math he's saying rebel moon 1 would have made... $1.6 billion at the box office? They couldn't get BvS to half that and that movie had BATMAN and SUPERMAN!). So what should snyder do next? I think it is pretty obvious and he's already talked about it, he should adapt Gears Of War (also at netflix) but let someone else write it to take some of the creative weight off, zack is actually a *great* fit with the tone, aesthetic and ethos of that series but he has proven he can't shoulder whole productions on his own, which is fine this shit ain't easy, so just collaborate and make a better product it would help him a lot imo. Ultimately, we have heard of girl math but thie was definitely "boy math" haha (also it wasn't a mistake he didn't bring up oppenheimer instead as a comparison let's be honest).
Great episode. If a Kingdom Come based story is done it should be at the end of a looong run of movies that build the universe, like MCUs Infinity War and Endgame.
Mike nailed it. Snyder talks a big game, but his movies don't really touch on what he says. He just includes killing because he enjoys it. Even The Dark Knight Returns had Bruce abstain from killing the mutant leader. He pounded him to a pulp, but he didn't kill him.
The Dark Knight is my #1 favorite movie of all time, not just because I'm a Batman fan but also because of the story behind it. Christan Bale's Batman killed, yes. But he did when it was absolute necessary and then felt bad for it. That's why I like Christan Bale's Batman. Not only was he the closest to Conroy's Batman, he was not a Murderer when he killed. Batman isn't stoic. He feels pain. And that's why Bale's brought, emotion and pain.
He is stoic, but he does also feel pain. Bale did a great job at that. Was Dent the only one that dies at the hands of Batman in TDK? He's the only one that comes to mind right now. And he was saving the kid, not killing Harvey, which goes to your point. He's not a murderer. Batman should NEVER be a cold-blooded killer.
That scene after Harvey dies, Batman takes the blame and calls himself the murderer. But Gordon says he's not a murderer. He was saving his boy. Which is brilliant because in Batman: The Animated Series there's an episode where Gordon is shot in the line of duty and then sent to the hospital. When Batman sees that he becomes very upset about that and blames himself for it. The cop scene in the movie when Batman is fighting his way to the Joker is from Batman: Mask of the Phantasm. So this obviously hints towards Nolan aiming his Batman towards Conroy's, but with a more realistic approach to it. Which is what I have been saying and why Bale is my favorite live action Batman.
Folks can make good arguments either way about the "No Killing Rules" with superheroes..... For MOS it was the bs nitpicking about the destruction the superfights were causing and the double standard comparisons to Marvel(Who glossed over it largely until Civil War) that I really got sick of. As for Snyder...it'll always be a love/hate thing for me and his work with Supes.....Love the intensity,scale, and speed he brought to his Superman and the cast he chose.....Absolutely hate the rush to get to Supes darkest stories without building him up to be the worlds greatest champion first who actually loves being superman.
Zach is only interested in the visuals. His main point about preferring Affleck over Bale was about their relative sizes. Nothing about their portrayals of the
I typically don't agree with Mike when it comes to Man of Steel and BvS etc. But like Rocha, he made Excellent points! However, a slight push back is I'm BvS it was slightly brought up when he speaks with Alfred which was one of the better conversations and character moments in that movie in which Alfred points out just how different he is now, and Batmans comeback that he is a criminal etc. That's the only point I will say. Great conversation. It was refreshing not seeing Mike go so anti Snyder and not being derogatory. Well done fellas.
It was weird to hear Snyder seem so sensitive about Rebel Moon and to, specifically, point to Barbie? I'm sure there's some crossover (Rocha's seen both, for example) with the audience, but even if there are crossovers, I don't see the two as being direct competitors?
I want to deconstruct The Boys tv show as a movie where Homelander is actually just a nice guy superhero and Butcher tries to become his bestest friend so they can all be happy & friendly to the world foreverever.
The best part of the last airbender getting season 2 and 3 means we are getting Toph. Toph is the the absolute best character from the show and if done right everyone will love her . I can’t wait
Snyders math couldn't be more off, sure, the movie was turned on 96M times or whatever, he doesn't take into account that at least half of those people would never go out of their way to go to a theater to watch that train wreck!
This is why I like the Injustice animated movie. You get to see why Superman turns dark and Batman has to try and stop him, thanks to The Joker. I think that's what makes the story of that movie more interesting.
I wish John had argued the point when they talk about Superman killing is this: How exactly was Superman supposed to handle Zod in 'Man of Steel' once he'd made up his mind that he was going to destroy everything in his path? Superman kills Zod in 'Superman II' and though he doesn't die violently as he does in the Snyder version, a kill is still a kill. And yet NO ONE bats an eye about it! No one cries wolf about it...why? Because at the end of day, Supes killed an equally powerful villain in both Donner and Snyder's versions. C'mon, Rocha! 🤷🏾♂️
It's a different movie with a different context. We don't know that he kills Zod necessarily. He just disappears in a comical way so it's nowhere near the vibe of Superman snapping Zoe's neck so that argument would've been moot. And the argument wasn't Superman should never kill...it's that if you do that then you have to build up to it in a way that makes sense and has resonance when he does it. It was there in MoS, but it wasn't FULLY there.
@@JohnRochaSays Indeed. The script for Superman II has the Kryptonians surviving and being arrested along with Lex. That's how it was written. That's how the actors approached it. That's how it was filmed -- the extended TV version of the movie uses this footage. It was only in Richard Lester's edit that it was left ambiguous; what an odd choice. I'm all for it has to be on the screen to count, but the intent was never there. Whereas with Man of Steel, it was from the get-go. And the idea that Clark has to learn to be Superman and learn not to kill as he starts out -- at 33 years old! -- is completely counter to the core of the character.
Snyder is the lazy kid at school that gets his work marked down because he won’t show his work on how he got to the answer . On paper I like the ideas he is trying to tell . The problem is he doesn’t show how he gets there
I believe, maybe(?), your favorite Captain of all time said the following, Rocha: "All right. It's instinctive. But the instinct can be fought. We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands, but we can stop it. We can admit that we're killers, but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes. Knowing that we won't kill today." Personally, one of my favorite episodes of all time.
Also, Michael was spot on with the way you 'subvert' expectations of heroes like Batman or Superman. It (Snyder's attitude/posture) reeks of "I wasn't told I could so I did!" Never mind that that, in and of itself, does absolutely nothing for the stories and narratives. It almost feels childish, like you have a sibling that says don't poke me b/c I don't like it and you're just there to push buttons while serving no actual purpose or reason other than you were told you couldn't/shouldn't. Pushing buttons just b/c makes you an asshole, pushing buttons with a purpose and b/c you have something to say with an artistic vision? That makes you creative.
Well said Vogel! He is absolutely right about that Snyder explanation. Man of Steel is the perfect example. Even though I’m one of the few that liked that movie. Snyder is not a great storyteller!
Traitors season 2 was incredible. I don’t want much reality tv these days but when I saw the commercial with all those familiar reality tv stars sharing the screen, it felt like No Way Home or Across the Spider-verse for me 😂😅 I had no choice but to watch and I ended up loving it. I didn’t know the bachelor contestants or John from Parliament but had familiarity with literally every single other contestant so it made more enjoyable. Been watching CT since I was a teen in high school and now I’m 34 so it’s like you have this weird parasocial history with these folks. The whole show just felt like a reunion of sorts. Also Rocha definitely needs to start an animated Avatar binge. We’re all doing it brother. I restarted it after I watched the live action series and I’m halfway through season 2 now. Season 2 is peak avatar for me.
Btw, you guys always have great discussions and takes on stuff, but I think the Snyder conversation at the end there might have been one of the best. Rocha coming at it from one angle, Michael from a different one and talking it out. I know Rocha was probably more receptive to it b/c it's his friend Michael hashing out his thoughts and making a counter(?) argument to Rocha's thoughts, but still a great chat and a great way to broach the topic.
It feels like the Fallout series will be less a by-the-book adaptation of one of the games, but rather a story in the world of Fallout? And I'm ok with that since it's kinda what the games seem to do (I will readily admit that this is the sort of game I would enjoy, but just have never picked up)? Either way, Goggins has already left a bit of an impression as the intro spokesperson and the Ghoul.
Joe Rogan was the one who brought up Barbie and was talking about the haters of Barbie. Joe Rogan repeatedly has mentioned how much he loves Barbie. It was actually a positive conversation. I watched the entire interview.
Don't make fun of Shannon's gaming motion sickness. I used to game when I was younger as well, but it got to the point where the graphics just got too much. Now the same happens to me as well. Leave our sensitive selves alone. lol
Fallout looks so good, as a person who has played almost all of the Fallout games. I am 90% sure that Walton Goggins is playing the same character. People who are exposed to alot of radiation turn into Ghouls and will then live for hundreds of years. More than likely he did not get to a vault when the bombs dropped and he turned into a Ghoul.
So glad Zack Snyder got kicked out of comic book movies. I hope he never directs a comic book movie. This just shows he didn’t even understand the characters
You guys don't see that bvs batman is like a cop who has been on the job for twenty year and that is jaded from his experiences. Which makes him more hard-edged and harden by his results on the streets.
@@quinntaylor4680 Yes...then put that in the movie. Handing us an already jaded Bruce Wayne without letting us see how this version got jaded is a cop out and a leap in convenient logic to fit a story you want to tell. This isn't some new character or stranger. Why rob the audience of the experiences that drove a superhero to become as jaded as he has become? It makes no sense.
