James O'Brien questions 'uncomfortable' Equality Act changes | LBC 

As a biological woman who has been misgendered on several occasions, usually public toilets, thank you. I feel far more threatened by transphobic misogyny than I do by transgender women.

Just remember, the Tories need us to keep busy with culture wars so they don't come under scrutiny for what they've done.

Just a reminder: 1. Illegal things like assault, indecent exposure etc., are already illegal 2. Biological and masculine presenting men can be victims too 3. Biological and feminine presenting women can be perpetrators too 4. If the manliest man is intent on doing something illegal, a "biological women in skirts only" sign will not stop him from entering a room where he intends to do that.

My friend is a F to M trans. He has a low masculine voice a beard and is impossible to mistake. Is he going to be banned from the male bathroom? And if so will his presence in the female bathroom cause security to rush in and arrest him and will be then be taken to a police station and have to be biologically verified both documented and physically and then released. Until he wishes to go to the toilet again? It's a vacuous issue that has been manufactured by the Tory right of the right wing to be a shiny object to distract for their own misdeeds. And sorry James you dropped down one number on my speed dial.

I’ve lived and worked in SE Asia for many years. Attitudes to trans people are very different there. You soon learn not to care if the person serving you in Boots is trans. Regardless, the percentage of people with actual gender dysphoria is tiny. And the percentage of those who somehow exploit this situation is again tiny. A tiny percentage of a tiny percentage. Yet, somehow this has been made a burning issue. Methinks this is political misdirection - oh look! A squirrel!

I looked after a trans woman on a hospital ward designated for female patients 20 years ago. This was not an individual that 'passed', particularly once they were in their hospital gown, but nevertheless their identity was respected and not one person complained. Everyone's dignity and privacy was respected, as should be the case with everyone in a hospital regardless of gender or location. The other ladies in the room did not express feeling frightened or threatened in any way. It seems odd that a couple of decades ago seems like a more enlightened time! Nowadays this craven and disgusting moral panic would lead to that blameless individual being treated with fear and suspicion simply for existing and being in need of medical care.

I always say, how would those women who are complaining feel if a trans man with a beard walked into the ladies toilets wearing jeans, a tee shirt? Or if a trans man with a beard demanded a place in a women’s refuge because they’ve been attacked? In their definition they would be entitled to both, and James is right, who will check

I have just been reading your explanation of this issue in your book on how not to be wrong. I find it difficult as a cis male to have any internal guidance as to what it means to be trans. Even as an elderly person I rejoice in learning knowing that my ignorance is infinite, and I will never have to stop. Without any internal grounding for this issue, I am forced to rely on outside information. It is a bit helpful that the anti-trans faction has consistently shown themselves to be wrong about mostly everything. As I continue with life's journey, I need to remember that others are not here to please me but to be themselves and should always be treated fairly. Easier said than done sometimes.

As a former Police Officer, the actual application of a law is something that people frequently forget about.

Yesterday Trump was arrested. Main news on FOX was rainbow flag on Bud Light beer can.

I found this segment very thought provoking. I'm a transwoman and it's actually quite frightening to think that at the start of the year, the main news coverage was just about scotlands push to make it easier to change your birth certificates gender marker. Now I'm in danger of having human rights removed from me because of the tory parties draconian ideas about gender. What I do find truly ironic is kemi badenoch. A black woman of African descent who 100 years ago wouldn't have held rights due to her race and gender and would have been segregated; is now trying to push a different kind of segregation on a different minority. It's Conservative irony at its worst.

Lots of spaces could be made gender neutral

*Sidenote:* It is no accident that this culture war nonsense is word-for-word straight out of the USA. The GOP has its tentacles in UK politics. Trans men are men. Trans women are women. "I find trans people icky" is NOT a political argument or reason enough to give a section of society fewer rights than everyone else.

as a trans woman if i was to be forced to be in a male ward in hospital then i wouldnt go in to hospital and many other trans women would probably feel the same we have used female facillities for decades already and all the fearmongering hasnt happened despite it being LEGAL for trans women to use female facilities.

Just for clarity. A non transgender woman can be born with a pp this is known as intersex when someone is born with characteristics within both genders. Intersex people are not (necessarily but can be) transgender. another issue with this new law would mean that transgender men will be forced to use the ladies bathroom and transmen can be extremely masculine and will always present masculine, this has the unintended effect that all the transwoman you just banned will be replaced with transmen who are actually men and will present male only now the transwoman forced to share spaces with men will be at risk of SH or SA or just regular old harassment or assault from cis men. Pointless policy designed to make Transpeople's lives more difficult.

The idea is that no one is going to check, but simply trans people will become so afraid of being harassed in public spaces that they will be effectively excluded from society. If you are the theoretical perfectly passing trans women with a beautiful figure, are you going to go into the men's toilet, or go into a men's ward, or the men's changing room? No, you will avoid going to shops, restaurants, avoid the doctor, fear needing to stop at a motorway service station because you drank too much water, so end up you never leaving your house. This is actually the existing reality for many trans people already, far from the stereotype that we are all dying for any chance to saunter round the dingy public loos in the city centre, and this rhetoric only makes this worse. These places are genuinely terrifying for trans people. At the moment we at least know that most service providers are aware of their duty under the law. If we have an issue, we might at least be able to site the Equalities Act and get someone off our backs long enough to get out of there. With that gone it becomes a complete gamble as to whether someone will just decide to take their bad day out on us. It's often forgotten, but the UK has had legal protection for trans people for nearly 20 years, first with Gender Recognition Act in 2004, then with the Equalities Act in 2010. The UK was pioneering in Europe, and the law was set to be further improved and updated as recently as a few years ago. And yet women's sports have not been overrun, toilets are not full of leery men clutching Gender Recognition Certificates, the apocalypse has not happened. Instead, trans people have started to assert their dignity, become part of society, be more visible and feel less afraid of the mob. That is too much for the tory party. We must be put back in our place.

The Tories have simply run out of ideas.

People seem to be really obsessed with penises these days

I believe Priest should be banned from using the mens room if child is in there.

Have to say that I think this has been a most thoughtful segment. Thoroughly agree with everything you said. It's straight out of the Conservative playbook these days. Deflect attention away from the mess we've made of the country by starting culture wars that anger the public. Well done once again on pointing out this craziness James. 👏

The issue with the phrasing of the question “who is going to check?” is that it implies a need to check, which only exists because a few people have loudly declared there’s a need to check when there isn’t.

Imagine the same question, but apply it to schoolchildren. That's what's happening in the US. They literally want to force children to undergo genital examinations just to play on a school sports team or use the toilets. Who's going to check that? And importantly, who would most want that job?

What about Transmen? Surely what we need is more privacy for all. Many people because of their religion want privacy as do many people of shy disposition. As a woman I hate women shared changing rooms. I don't want other women staring at me undressed.

Ignore the culture wars: We need to protect trans kids from bigots

One of the biggest issues is that we are highlighting people’s differences rather than similarities. Does the way someone look determine how they will interact with someone?

When have Tories worried about details, or actually making their plans work? Total lack of planning hadn't stopped them in the past, why would they start now?

James you're not transphobic nor misogynistic ✌

Such a great take. My respect for James continues to grow with each opinion I hear

A trans woman would have difficulty going into men's toilets. Has nobody thought this through?

A thought provoking monologue James, nice one.

Imagine the following: a 200+ pound steroidusing male, all clad in jeans and leather, shaved head and full beard, looking like he may have sinister intentions, demands entrance to a womens locker room because he claims he was born female. Ask the same question: Who will check? And to follow up: Who will stop him?

I like James, one of the very few commentators who conducts debate in an adult grown up fashion, not resorting to tropes or populism like a lot of others.

"P-dolts" (PDLT - People who Don't Like Thinking)

The equality act does not need changing

Annoying culture war distraction. Tories love this obfuscation. Side issue..It affects 0.1 per cent of us. Important issues abound.. Let's get on.

The biggest problem with this whole argument is not actually about trans women. It's more about "biological" men that would "pretend" to be trans to prey on women. Trans women on HRT have no action down there, so actual trans women who are undertaking HRT are not a threat in anyway. The assumption that a predator would go through all that effort to assault a woman is incredibly farfetched and ridiculous. So let's say they make everyone download an app or something that has their birth gender, and everyone was forced to use it when they enter a space, what about the trans people that have a grc and have legally changed their birth certificate (which is a very freaking long and hard process) how would that come into play? What about the trans people that have had srs and no longer have their boy bits? There's too many levels to this and they are all dumb.

If the safety of women is of any interest to these people maybe the tens of thousands of unpunished rapists might be a better target

I've come across women in ladies toilets who probably didn't start life as females but I can't be certain. Some women don't look very feminine, just as some men don't look very masculine. It has never bothered me but it clearly bothers some people to the point of hysteria. It takes all sorts!

We ask who will check, knowing there would be plenty of volunteers self declaring as some kind of "sovereign citizen protection & inspection force", filming an inch away from the faces of anyone they deemed unworthy & hoping for a reaction while they live stream it saying they are a citizen journalist for example.

Given that trans men are often ignored in all these conversations, I'm presuming - as a cis woman who personally has no problems sharing space with anyone - that these safe spaces for "people born as biological women" will be open to trans men too, right?

I really don't get how or why people are triggered so much by trans people, or treating people as human beings. I was always under the impression that what in is your pants is "private" and there are laws to make it "private" they could change the law so that everyone has to have their privates on show all the time, that would solve the issue, but I'm sure that would then have it's own set of handbag and pearls clutching. the main one being "but that affects me, I want it to only affect them" the argument about "Biological women" is still a bad argument, you can still have "Biological women" that present as male, does he mean "identified by sight at birth as female"?

Well James, over here in the USA, in Florida and Ohio and other right-wing states, male legislators have proposed authorizing school administrators (or themselves, I presume...) to conduct "mandatory genital inspections" of all the kids just to be sure. You know- like Rep.Jim Jordan helped do at Ohio State...

The two people walking towards the door are not really a problem unless the door potentially excludes one of them. Make loos all private non sexed/gendered spaces. Clean and usable by anyone, and private. If that means queues so be it. Just like it would be on a mixed ward. No need for checking because everyone uses the same loo. As to sports events create three types of event as part of a transitioning process for everyone. Women’s, men’s, and all comers events. Sportspeople already have to do checking anyway. The vast majority of people have no criminal intent at all. Those that commit crimes can go through the legal process. Prisons too could be mixed, it might help solve some other issues too, make the authorities think harder about how criminality should be managed, how it should be humanised. For violent criminal the penalties should be greater in terms of access to others anyway. But at least start to think about this whole issue in a way that is not head in the sand stuff. Or a bunch of ideologues imposing things top down.

It makes me really happy to hear someone saying logical and emapthetic things like this, thank you

I think that the biggest problem in this issue is that people don't clearly define what they mean by 'transgender'. The rightists will always use terminology to confuse the issue and jump on the 'redmeat' bandwagon. Same with terms like 'woke' and 'politically correct'. JOB is absolutely correct in identifying the issues here. Instead of wading in and taking up a tribal stance, we need to clarify what we mean by the term under discussion. It seems that nuance is no longer understood or accepted. Everything needs to be black/white; yes/no; this/that. Many people taking up these issues can't countenance the 'grey areas'.

Very true, we need policy makers who are focused on solutions and empirical evidence, not far stretched unrealistic situations

I remember going to a gym in central London where a transgender woman came to the women's only sauna. Ironically, not one of us were attacked or felt threatened. She was obviously post op but if they are going with 'born a woman', then was she not allowed to use the sauna? Physically she looked female so who was gonna do the biological tests? This is madness I have used gender neutral bathrooms/ toilets worldwide and have never had any problems. I have only ever been sexually threatened by a man coming out of the male toilets whom I showed how to use the hand washing facilities. It's not trans women that scare us.

Smoke and Mirrors. Strange how this raises its head now of all times

Unisex single person bathrooms eliminate all this bathroom panic. Very simple solution that works perfectly on that issue. At least in my state in the USA even public venues have handicap restrooms that are single person and can be used by trans people. Obviously, some other issues are a lot more difficult such as women's sports.

Here's a radical idea.... instead of making toilets a cultural battleground... why not remove gender from toilets entirely? a local bar i know just has "toilets" that anyone can use. wow. removes the issue entirely. pretty small loos and not very amazing, not exactly where you'd hangout exactly. i blame the pictures above the door, not the people needing to empty their bladders!

Maybe it's something else the tories want photo id for. Maybe not as it might widen the people who have photo id for voting.

The weird thing is if you google muscular trans-men, you will see men who present a traditional physical form of masculinity more effective than a lot of men. Now once this change is enacted, are they honestly going to allow those men into those biological women only spaces?

The threat is mostly the fear and not the reality imo. It is in the interests of disruptors like tories, republicans, fascists etc to create fear, hate and division. It is in the interests of humanity, of men and women including all who identify in whatever way is what they need to for themselves which doesn't necessarily fit in with what bigotry and "convention" dictates, to create understanding, love and cooperation.

Maybe all public toilets should be set up like they do at big outdoor events and have individual units with seating room only.!!!!

There's also the dimension to this with the GRC and clinical transitioning process where pychiatrists and related professionals gatekeep/vet who can be the exception to those rules. One thing the more radical people on both the left and right have in common is they want to invalidate that process, for different reasons and outcomes of course, but it was a big step forward for trans people when it happened in 2004. Having been involved in the trans community and wider lgbt communities for along time I'm certain that gender non-conforming "assigned female at birth" women end up being challenged a lot more by these transphobic people because there are so few people who actually transition by comparison. As such the net effect is an enforcement of gender stereotype confirmation onto women. I've thought about this whole "who checks?" thing a lot and it seems like it would be impractical to police it. It's just political noise to sate a certain group of people and I feel like the climate has moved on a bit from where it was in the mid 2010s but the tories are grasping at straws because they've failed on what should be their main thing i.e economics.

If you always get called transphobic and misogynistic whenever you talk about this then maybe that’s something you should spend some time thinking about.

Trans women’s rights are women rights

What does "born into the wrong body" mean?? Were people with body dysmorphia "born into the wrong body" or do they have a mental illness?

i'm 36 years old and i've only just now, this second, learned that hospital wards are seperated by gender. can't believe i never knew that. ive been in hospital 4 times too, and it just never occurred to me that my ward-mates were all blokes haha

I wonder if this will cause our first openly trans MP Jamie Wallis to step down so much for the Tories planning to make lives better for them

I’ve been living in Thailand for 8 years James,No bull. And believe me,Caucasian men don’t make convincing transsexuals!

Well , as a Conservative, " Let the Free market decide that point Sir "

I imagine the current government would much rather spend money trying to implement some kind of checks at public toilets/ leisure centres etc than they would on trying to feed or fix the nation they have broken.

You are 1 of Greats without a doubt and not alone

Out of curiosity, who is checking the British public toilets now if you are in the correct one? Or that you don't have a hidden illegal gun? Most of the time noone, but if you cause trouble it is one of the charges you can get if you cause law enforcement to look better at who you are, where and what you are doing.

Thanks so much for this.

Graham Linehan puts his hand up.

I think that there has to be a lot more research into this area of medicine. I have both Transgender men and women as friends. some go for both "top" and "bottom" surgery. to some, seeing the genitalia that they were born with and they don't identify with is too much and they have to have that corrected. to others, the area of the bottom surgery can be, to them too much of a risk from infection and they won't proceed with that.

The norm (?) is that people know which gender they are and they know which gender they are sexually attracted to. Few would find that controversial. Now think about the person who knows their gender but it is not the one they see in the mirror.

Such a simplistic monologue. I think I'm safe in saying a small proportion of the male populationen have always tried to get into women only spaces, so not sure why O'Brien thinks he's being so clever in reducing the conversation down to "who's going to check?".

"Who's gonna check?" - the perfect question. 👏

I don't have any issue withixed weds, u get mixed nurses. Anything needing privacy goes on behind closed curtains. This is nuts.

I have never been insulted by you each to there own for me if it makes you happy. 🥺✊️

While we're all philosophising over which bits and bobs should be allowed into which loo, people in line are still dying for a wee.

I listened to you on the show growing up and always respected you're debating skills and openness, now seeing the 'trans issues' come up relentlessly with attacks from all sides, it brings me joy that you actually care about people's lives and experiences☺️

Bit odd that you've said all the other arguments are reductionist and go on to do the same yourself. This is like asking 'who is going to check that my wife consents? Do I get fifty goes and on the fifty first a copper turns up to ask her?' Law is by consent and punished when not followed. That's how it would work.

Always remember, whoever someone wants to be is none of your fooking business 😂

Great conversation James.

I love how the british are still polite while also ignorant!!!🤦‍♂️😁👍

We can all wear symbols on our jackets… you know, like the jews in ww2. We all know what’s coming next if we go down this rabbit hole don’t we?

Isn't this change discriminatory?

The only way UK to deals with a problem is by slightly shifting attention to something that seems relevant that isn't and avoiding and addressing facing the problem at hand. Country is in complete shambles.

Great respect for you James

ps. i work with a trans women on a construction/ engineering site. she is one of the most grounded, likeable people i have ever worked with

Hya James I was born in the wrong body but what can I do. My whole life I have been discriminated against trying to be something I’m not!! No easy answer I’m in my mid 60s. All I can hope for is that younger people get a better life and are treated equally Dave

Takes us right back to the mysogenistic Contagious Diseases Act 1864

Maybe the issue is less around categorising people and more about making traditionally seperate spaces safe to now be shared spaces. It's already happening all over the place I.e swimming pool changing rooms, shared toilets etc. There is a bigger and far more nuanced discussion around sport that needs to happen though.

While James' comment about ID was meant to be sarcastic, it's obviously where things will end up. If the bar to self ID is continuously lowered then the counterweight will be documentation to support your status. Which is all a bit depressing, but if there are to be any "safe spaces" for anyone, what's the alternative?

It's very important for those of us who may not know how to talk about trans issues as appropriately or sensitively as we'd like to be able to explore our ignorance and learn through discussion with trans people or activists. The difficulty of that is, we don't know on an individual basis the level of trauma (and often there is trauma of some kind, whether that's the feeling of your body not matching your identity or direct abuse) that an individual has gone through and just how an innocent but insensitive comment from someone like me who doesn't know better can factor into all of that trauma. The upset response someone gives to your comment isn't so much an expression of anger against you as it is just all that bottled up tension looking for an outlet. My approach is to try and be as upfront as possible about my lack of understanding and nature of my curiosity, and also to try to not react defensively if I'm called out for holding an opinion that I may need to think about again. It won't prevent the conversation from being difficult, but if having these conversations about identity were easy they'd probably not be that interesting, or important.

James feminists are frustrated by this issue because with your "door check criteria" we have spent a century changing what is "feminine looking" and what is "masculine looking". A lot of the problem we have is enforced stereotypes unfortunately reinforced by a lot of celebrities including prominent m-f trans individuals who are sponsored by make up companies and fashion brands. I bet the "feminine looking" person at the door in your mind's eye is someone in heels with blow-dried hair and a skirt. Women fought for a century to be allowed to wear trousers and flat shoes to work. Companies were trying to enforce the wearing of heels in sales positions - this century.

It is possible to create gender-neutral toilets that are safe for everyone to use. That seems to be the sensible solution. Of course its more important that the issue causes division than engenders a solution, because the purpose of the trans debate is to distract us from the failing system and so sensible solutions are in short supply.

Talk to trans people 🤷‍♀️

Maybe the women in the changing room? I think ultimately this should be a social issue rather than a political one. My understanding is that currently there is no law stopping men from entering a women's changing room but it's what is socially acceptable that governs that. I think this is what we need to get back to rather than having the government do everything for us

It's not about checking, it's about the law interacting with cultural norms. It's quite simple, if you are male, you should not use the women's facilities or be in women's sports. Women are not asking for much here.

It's amazing to listen to a man you respect have some bad takes or ideas. Fear is a lot different from belief about your identity. When someone says hey I'm afraid of this or that the next logical question to ask is why and to ask has this or that done something to you? Fear cannot stop other people's freedoms from existing. Until we have a issue where trans or men are losing as women and attacking or assaulting them in these spaces you have to let them be.

Biological women? Trans women aren't robots, James. The word cis exists, it's just the opposite of trans. Its not insulting, it's not othering (unlike your well-meaning use of 'biological women').

We don't look at disabled citizens and judge whether or not they should use a disabled toilet facility.. it's just provided and it's used at their discretion. Why not just create a separate none binary space, then trans male or trans female can use a mutually tolerated space.. if they complain, then it would only show their own intolerance rather than involving the intolerance of biological male/female people.

It's not about checking. If a man can identify as a woman then you've taken the right for women to raise a red flag when a man enters a female only space and to even define what a female only space is.

What a confused world we live in.

Someone talking sense at last