Jehovah's Witnesses and Child Sexual Abuse: Why Is the Two-Witness Rule a Red Herring? 

Exactly

@muted spark Your biblical gymnastics does you no credit. You are one of the very people that Eric talks about here, who hide these criminals in their midst! Hypocrite!

I couldn’t have said that better myself. You nailed it !!

That was the initial arguement l held. Then finding so many OTHER genuine reasons over which one might leave, dates proclaimed that did not meet with expectations, as well as harsh shunning policy which has had ,serious NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES for those affected in families etc. This caused me to wonder if there was any comment or hint in scripture that would explain what on earth was happening ! Together with the growing volume of voices in activism. Love WAS lacking. Scriptures mentioned this The love of the greater number said jesus, WOULD grow cold. This exactly described or explained the sad scene . Those feeling the weight of the lack of this Christike quality, know what l mean...its where l am , where lve been.. Then l realised, this proved actually that God was WITH these . Re reading revelation, which tells us new things we know MUST take place, With fresh eyes, Things that shake our faith because , doubts arise, Good to check it out from the ground up. . ( the introductory verses of rev tell us this comes from Almighty God , who gives it to jesus, who passes it on to john. Each in turn , from God down, reveals new information, before unknown , which in itself bears witness to the nature of God, not being triune ( for they are not all aware of the same things. Christ, was in heaven where he recieved the revelation, long since his resurrection to heaven ) Now coming to the reason why we must expect harsh policies by those God uses at that time : Rev 2 :27 as well as many other verses indicate that Christ is seen with an IRON ROD. With it he sheperds WHO DOES THAT !!?? Surely that runs counter to whatever sheperds have done in the past ! Imagine the results of the sheep (many of whom are already wounded and insecure, scared or weak,) being shepherded by a rod of iron Would not wood be kinder, gentler ? Cold ,unyielding and unfeeling, iron would not be the choice for me. Yet that is precisely what has been ordered to be used, by the Almighty ! Jesus submits as does as God wills , as always, but its news to him. Likely as before ,as a human , he might have to accede, to Gods greater wisdom in doing this. The Sovereign has destined that things now must come to a head, and is the reason that things must be different. He is in the process of gathering nations, as rev 16:14,16 says. In his letters to the future congregations, recorded in revelation 2, jesus mentioned the subject of love again , alerting us that the intensity of the love in the congregation originally, was greater saying " l hold this against you, that you left the love you had at first "! I can visualise Christ shaking his head, lamenting over this Giving it this Interpretation with a wider meaning, actually has had the opposite effect. The tables are turned. Rather than the harsh policies be reasonable justification to run away , these verses are telling us That the Almighty would use this method. Should we be surprised ? Perhaps not. The compassion we have learned of the Christ , we might expect everyone to be nice. Judicial matters handled often void of consideration to the devastating situations that shunning will leave the family . Ignoring mitigating circumstances , there are procedures that have direct NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES on individuals. This brings up another point that revelation revealed . Rev 11:5 , 6 The two witnesses ( ironically ) Is that the sense of humour of the Almighty, to include the issue cryptically in prophecy? Possibly, In the future, we might look back , and be impressed with Gods words' accuracy !! The two witnesses are authorised to strike earth with plagues. Plagues always have negative consequences or effects, always " as often and whenever they wish ". Can anyone dispute that this has not been the case , when looking through the modern day history of Jehovah witnesses .?!! This book of the bible is not termed , "a reminder",as if to say, the same way jesus was then, is the precise way we will see him coming again Revelation, a revealing of something heretofore unseen Unexpected, now revealed. Is this the senses in which scripture says " every eye will see him ".. Seeing is not recognising The jews saw him But did not accept his manner of coming They therefore rejected him Could this be a warning ? Not living up to ones expectations, Was the fault with Christ ? That couldn't be right. It is within we ourselves that adjustments are required. Our minds , interpretations, things written , the way theyve been taken, had the effect or would have, that it was written the entire inhabited earth, Satan would be able to mislead ! Outside of the box thinking Is required to achieve The victory. What the purpose be , for this dirth in the depth of love ? I believe Ezekiel 38,is in play To bring about the final attack on the land of decoration, Gods peoples' spiritual estate, Gog needs to be dragged into place. Hooks in jaws, how does he get that way ? Bait. No, its Not nice, being bait This is what must take place. Were not the Hebrew slaves, bait ? Pharoah had to put them in their place Only when Moses was ordered to give them nowhere to run , to make an escape Did the lord of lords, the sovereign, save the day. Who would have thought That God would save them that way They , we too, need to have that kind of faith !!@@

They talk about modesty yet I noticed how luxuriously & expensively he was dressed. Like a bishop in his purple silks(tie/handkerchiefs) & very expensive linen suit. It's not his wedding day! Back in the day he would have been counselled for a 'flashy display of wealth'.

@@annabizaro-doo-dah You're right. In the 70's bethelittes dressed in donated clothing to show their poverty because of their total dedication to the ministry.

A good step in the right direction but you won't be free until you rid yourself of all superstition!

Amen

WOKE UP, THAT IS SO TRUE. THEY ARE PERFECT AND TO QUESTION THEM IS DEFINITELY A NO NO SMH!😶😐😵

@@unclesalty7778 I Got baptized in 1976 and never been a pioneer or regular in the field service. Never could get comfortable in this religion because in the back of my mind always felt something was not right. It took from then to last year for me to leave this organization completely and I feel so 😌. All because of this movement on RU-vid. I now know why I never felt right. I was more or less scared into this religion because of Armageddon. Can you imagine being a kid and learning about the end of the world and how devastating it will be and if you are not a baptized dedicated witness you will die. That is the main reason I got baptized because the sister that studied with me told me that all the time and scared me into baptism at the age of 14. Sad but true. Smh! There is so much more I can say but I won't. SO HAPPY TO BE FREE FROM THAT SO CALLED TRUTH! IM SO DEEPLY SCARRED...SMH!😟😧

@@sharonharris4441 Good for you! Please continue to speak out and expose. It's information, experiences and views such as what you provide that helps other people. You do make a difference.

@@gbnomore3918 I have already and my friend already shunned me. Im cool with it and I will every chance I get. Thank you!!!!😉

@@sharonharris4441 I like the way you said you could never get comfortable in the religion. That was the same thing I went through! And the reason I never advanced and left and went back until I finally woke up LOL. In fact my mom who is elderly now called me today and said did you go to the meeting? I was like heck no Mom what? Are you crazy I'm no part of that religion anymore. They protect child rapists why would I be? She's getting senile but it's kind of humorous, she just believes in God and wants to do what's right. Love her for that.

I had never before made the connection, Fayley. Thank you for that insight!

Perfect example

Excellent! This is uncluttered and straight to the point! Thanks for sharing. Sad to say you will never be gb worthy! lol!

Perhaps Eric could add this point at the end of this powerful video (also maybe Eric could make a slightly condensed version for our 'Yung wonz' who don't have our concentration span Lol)😂

Fayley A Excellent point.

same here!!!

Your organization hides pedophiles. What's there to debate?

Gods name ??

Chilly Perth: Is God nameless?

@@justaroundthecorner2883 how many languages

@@justaroundthecorner2883 come on Anglo Saxons

@BIG HORN MGTOW Could you enlighten me on the acronym? Then I will know how to reply. Thanks

@BIG HORN MGTOW Thank you. I am a MGTOW also. Very liberating! I have realized what John 8:32 and Matthew 11:28-30 really mean. Thank you for enlightening me.

@muted spark It is very interesting to me how Watchtower decided to base their policies on just a limited # of scriptures. Your point proves this perfectly. They doggedly hold to these against all reason. In my honest opinion, they are too arrogant to be honest. Because we live in an information age and people can now research all angles. If Watchtower plans to survive the leaders have to come clean, be honest and transparent. They will lose 1/2 their members immediately. What may remain is a kinder gentler group of people who can still base their core beliefs on God's word but refuse to go beyond what is written. Just my two cents. Have a great day!

@muted spark That is so interesting! Those Watchtower glasses will get you everytime. I would like to share a story with you sometime!

Ookla, are you currently attending then?

I’m sorry you’re going through this heartbreak, I am as well with my son and grandchildren. Take care 💐

Before the whole child sexual abuse issue raised its ugly head, I never heard about the two-witness rule. Now it is the flavor of the day. In my opinion, Watchtower scrambled to find something in the Bible that clears them from responsibility. Once they found it, the GB were so excited that it was in the Bible. They publicized their new found favorite "get out of jail" card to everyone outside their organization. We will never let go of our "two witness rule". And, to this very day, Watchtower will always weasel themselves out of responsibility and deflect their responsibility onto their publishers.

Now if you take the two-witness rule with child sexual abuse and apply it to the greatest commandments. Does the two witness rule with child abuse hold water? Ask yourself: is it loving your neighbor to cover up child sexual abuse? Is it loving your neighbor to not call the authorities and report a crime? Is it loving your neighbor... I believe the answers are obvious. The whole two-witness rule fails at the greatest commandments level entirely.

Obeying God means obeying the Superior Authorities that are put in place by God himself, especially when it's a matter of giving unto Caesar what belongs to Ceasar. Criminal cases belong to Caesar. And that's why they're always the first to report Arson or Burglary of Kingdom Halls to the Police!

@@pacvale9768 but if there is clergy penitent privilege in the law as regards child sexual abuse, then Watchtower will say they were obeying such law in the case of Montana's ruling.

@@byebyewatchtower Moral victory far outweighs ordinary court victory for any religious organisation. For example, 1973 secular victory for pro-abortion is still being haunted by many moralists.

And hearing a person speak who has both intelligence and wisdom makes the head man of a religion apoplectic.

That is another problem in the Organization which is often dealt with in the same cover-up manner as child abuse.

@@BeroeanPickets I know I was drugged and raped by elders but the world never talk about it! The two witness rule is just a protection for them.

@@lovelysosweet8386 I'm so sorry this happened to you Lovely. I just want to tell you I've heard you😢. Have you had any professional help around dealing with this terrible trauma? Can we help in some way?

Domestic violence is just as prevalent in the organization and is also swept under the rug!

@@annabizaro-doo-dah I just wish the world would acknowledge women, especially black woman! Thank you for hearing me!💕

Read Acts 27 onwards, Peter was talking about the Sanhedrin who would have used the Mosaic law.

Do you think that an elder sexually abusing someone else's child is a 'confidential' matter? Does raising your child in the discipline and mental regulating of Jehovah include allowing an elder to abuse your child in such a way? If so, then Jehovah himself is a sexual predator of children. Should that elder also be a married man, then is he also not guilty of the bible's prohibition of adultery and pornia? It would seem that the best course of action would be to burn all bibles, sieze the material assets of the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses , lock them all up and throw away the key. Perhaps then, these crimes will be referred for justice.

Your question is easily answered, just think about. Eric just explained to you what God's law is at Romans 13 1-7. The problem you pose is only a challenge if you believe 8 guys are synonymous with God. So here's how Jws interpret Acts 5:29. You must obey the Governing Body as ruler rather than Men. When has God ever commanded that his servants stand by and keep a crime confidential? As I mentioned earlier take Watchtower glasses off and the truth becomes crystal clear. Sad to say for many of us it took decades to remove the glasses.

muted spark.... and the funding of their money machine.

@muted spark Amen Brother!

Tasmanian Devil, What God do you worship?

There would be forensic evidence persumably.

This warms my heart lol!

GB NoMore 😂 Well... I love the construction and it is only fair. The JW always calls everybody prostitute organisation this that and here and there while doing the same stuff themselves. If you are the one to coin the meme I salute you ❤️

@@theohuioiesin6519 hey Theo, aren't you the one who was appointed as an elder then read the shepherd book and was like I'm done here LOL?

GB NoMore in summary yeah. A short Career as an elder... 😂😎😇

@@theohuioiesin6519 I recounted your story recently in one of my posts! Thanks! If I can go back and find it I'll send you the link.

Marie, I like using herbal and natural remedies, too. I knew a very good JW chiropractor. He heard feedback from his patients that Watchtower discouraged Witnesses from using his services. Nice to meet you here.

@@vintage6346 see, now that is what was always odd to me. They will share health info coming out of Harvard which is usually monitored by big pharma which is killing tons of people. There are major contradictions in their teachings. Nice to meet you.

@@LM-dl3yx, Yes, they support big pharma. But sweet little green leaves for a healthy tea, or especially healthy roots (turmeric, ginger, etc.),.. they are scandalized if we promote these. Smh.

I can

At Matthew 22:21, Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's." Romans 13:1 "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities..." The governing authorities aren't concerned with assembling a judicial committee. The governing authorities are concerned with judging whether or not a crime has been committed, and if so, what penalty should be imposed on the perpetrator. Where Watchtower goes wrong is in trying to keep everyone from reporting an act of pedophilia perpetrated by a JW to the governing authorities. Watchtower threatens the JWs who report a JW pedophile to the governing authorities with being disfellowshipped for making the report. Eric's video explains how Watchtower obfuscates the truth about the issues so as to protect JWs who commit pedophilia from (1) being reported to the governing authorities and (2) being brought to justice by the governing authorities. The elders can have their judicial meeting, listen to the confession of the one who is accused, and accept his repentance as genuine. Or, they can have their committee meeting, listen to his denial, and accept his denial as truth. And they can pray with him to their hearts content. No one is trying to stop the elders from having a judicial committe with the accused. The elders can admit or deny admittance of whatever evidence they see fit in their judicial committee meeting with the accused. Arguing with Watchtower about THEIR APPLICATION of the two-witness rule for proving whether or not "the accused" has committed child sexual abuse is of no practical value as regards getting legal justice from the governing authorities. Even when Watchtower KNOWS that "the accused" is guilty, they still threaten to disfellowship any JW who reports the JW pedophile to the governing authorities.

Such a good point! How many GB helpers are charged with scouring the internet to collect data on apostates?

1 John 2 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ?i This is the antichrist,j the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either.k But whoever acknowledges the Sonl has the Father also.m 24 As for you, what you have heard from the beginning must remain in you.n If what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you will also remain in union with the Son and in union with the Father. 25 Furthermore, this is what he himself promised us-the life everlasting. So if we stay with Jesus and Jehovah passed the 1290 day Remain with them 45 more day If you’re evil you will not understand these words or give up on God and Jesus When everything around you falls apart like maybe they sell all the kingdom hall or the faithful slave Falls all apart Are we going to be like what Eric Wilson says and help those ones about ready to give up just remain with the Christ them 45 more days

Chris, you refer to Deuteronomy 19. I like your point. I'd say including all the verses of Deut. 19:15 - 21 give good context. Thanks.

Fran, I don't know about all JW's, but many were "born in", including me. As JW's, we thought that we were especially blessed. And I, having been "born in", wondered at how easy things had been for me,... not having to unlearn a false religion. Lol. Well, now it's me having to unlearn Watchtower. That's wonderful that you now are enthusiastic about getting baptised. :)

No I do not. I consider myself a Christian enjoying the freedom of the Christ

Which sound bite, Chris? Or, please give the minute and second on the video that you refer to.

vintage thanks for the reply. I was referring to the end of the video. You said you’d love to hear on the news how JW aren’t following Jehovahs laws and rules of owing things of Cesar to Cesar and following the laws of the land when it comes to Reporting child sexual Abuse crimes to the higher authority.

Hi Mike, You can email Eric at meleti.vivlon@gmail.com You might also ask him about how you can meet with other Christians online. We are currently using the Zoom platform for meetings.

Hi Mike, when you say you sent a PM to me, did you mean through Facebook. If so, I might have missed it as I rarely get on Facebook.

Hi Vintage. Many thanks for your info. Regards Mike

Hi Salviati. I assume by your comment you have asked every survivor if they object Meleti commenting about their pain. Have you asked survivors if you can speak for them. I think not ! Majority of survivors are only to happy for someone to comment on their behalf. The pain of their experience leaves them traumatised most unable to speak for themselves, cocooned in their thoughts and nightmares. I know I am a survivor. As a survivor I find your verbal attack on Meleti offensive, You could have asked me first if I would be interested in your opinion. Instead of trying to sway my thoughts on the subject. You have no right to address your comments to me without my permission. If I view Meliti’s views as brilliant that is my business. It is not your right to brand my decisions as false. I am quite capable of making my own decisions on individuals reasoning. Thank you but you are not a knight in shining armour coming to the rescue of survivors.

@@mikemesher8864 Excellently said brother Mike........

They are not a church they are a man made organization which has been protecting the abusers and not protecting the children . The organization has been covering up the child sexual abuse for more than 50 years and they bashed and criticized the Catholic church for their child sexual abuse while at the same time they were guilty of doing the same . It is the leaders of the organization who have been covering it up and they are a big part of the problem and it is their policy's that they have put in place which has allowed the child sexual abuse to thrive in their organization . It's not about hating the organization . It's about exposing the horrific crimes of the child sexual abuse that has destroyed so many lives of the children and their families . The leaders of the organization had claimed that it was all apostate driven lies that it was not happening . However it was not apostate driven lies it was the leaders who were telling lies . Those leaders don't care about protecting the children and this is shown by their actions . They say they care about these children but their actions speak much more and shows that they don't care by refusing to change their broken ways which only makes things worse and not better . The way they treat the children who have been sexually abused is so wrong and they ask these children questions that only causes more harm then good and these men are not qualified to handle such matters . They think they are helping but in reality they are only making things worse and the children are being victimized again . They claim to live by high moral standards . Covering up thousands of child sexual abuse cases and failing to report these horrific crimes is not a high moral standard in fact it's a very low standard .

@@ericbulman1752 Bigotry.

really ?mose's law isn t abolish..?