he talks non sensical stuff most of the time and idgaf about his statements what matters is Jordan being discussed after being out in the league for decades only solidifies his GOAT status further more 💁🏻♀️💯🥰
No he doesn't. His attempted point is hurt further by the majority of terrible records in nba history have happened over the past 21 years. Expansion has less to do with talent available and more to do with financial viability. The raptors in 96' still had a better record than the spurs this year
To an extent sure, the talent is less concentrated. This is an argument that I believe both Wilt and Russell made to Jordan directly. I don’t think it’s really anything notable though, as the change of the floor of the league doesn’t really effect the ceiling.
Isn't he also making this point toward someone who literally co-carried one of those expansion teams with Penny to a Finals appearance and multiple deep playoff runs??
The Magic got real lucky pulling Penny and Shaq, along with good moves to get Dennis Scott and Horace Grant. But there were several new teams in Jordan's prime right before he started winning titles.
@@greggibson33And Lebron faced a superteam once while being on a superteam himself and was swept twice by the team the Rockets with CP3 and Harden went to game 7.
Redick has no business talking basketball when he has no respect for it's early years, pioneers, and hall of famers. His predecessors helped grow the sport so that spoiled nobodies like him could play.
he wanted to clarify that the top tier competition was still top tier and sound like he was slighting that era. But emotional ppl are gonna get in their feelings regardless
In 1996, the raptors had a 21-61 record. In 2024, the Pistons were 14-68, the Wizards were 15-67, and the Blazers were also 21-61. It seems the second worst team from the expansion year was better than some from "the most talented era".
first of all you took the 2nd worst expansion team. secondly nothing you said anything to do with 6 lottery teams with players full of scraps from other teams being added while he was in his prime 💀
@@TheBamaPrinceableTHANK YOU like bro I get it JJ reddick made it And he can say he was in the NBA which is more than I ever could , But holy fuck the dude talks as if he was some game changer Social media has gotten to his head.
Redick has no business talking basketball when he has no respect for it's early years, pioneers, and hall of famers. His predecessors helped grow the sport so that spoiled nobodies like him could play.
One argument that JJ and others skim over a lot is how 2016, the year everyone claims made Lebron the goat, was a watered down year. You had 5 good teams that year (Warriors, Cavs, Thunder, Spurs, and Raptors) and the rest garbage. Yes Golden State went 73-9, but do you know who went 10-72? The tanking Sixers. Hell I’m a Blazer fan and 2016 was supposed to be a rebuilding year for them yet they somehow got the 5th seed that year. Don’t tell me 2016 wasn’t watered down. I think the NBA stopped being so watered down in 2020, which Lebron only has 1 title (bubble). JJ’s argument is beyond stupid.
Great video as always Jonny. I love how JJ says to Shaq “you played against them” like he wasn’t on one of the expansion teams lol. Also, I’d love to see JJ coach the Lakers so we can watch them lose 60 games
Magic was very much an exception and not the norm to be having a deep playoff contender within years. They got Shaq, Penny, Horace, and Dennis Scott. They had guys for real.
This is one of the things I love about your channel! It's almost like dealing with things in real time and you come with the data. Not just feelings lol
remember when Bill Russell dissed MJ by saying he was lucky that Paxson hit the game winner because if MJ played in the 60s and he wouldn’t be able to pass to John because he’d in the stands. basically saying with the limited roster spots available. John wouldn’t be good enough to make the league (a benefit of having more teams….lesser players can make it). this same sentiment applied to JJ
Looool Bill Russell has to be one of the more overrated players of all time, he’s lucky there were no trades allowed and there were only like 8 teams back when he played 😂
@@Chilltown95 ahhh yes the age ole “he only faced 8 teams” despite the fact that he was facing those 8 teams 14-17 times in the regular season. and with less rosters spots meant ONLY THE BEST OF THE BEST would be playing. not like the 30 teams we got nowadays where players like Jarrett Jack are allowed to play because of the more available roster spots. way to show your age.
@@markjackson6431Russell a Pioneer and has a debate for GOAT for his on court as well as off court contributions against racism amd being a pillar of the black community. Jarrett Jack was nice. If Jarrett Jack in hus prime took a time machine to the late 50s hes dropping 60 pts a game. He's also right about Jaundice Eye Jordan. Lucky bum in the worst offensive era.
@@markjackson6431 you tried bro. 80% of players in the 60s wouldn’t even make a roster today 😂 not to mention he had all the best players on his team hence all the rings.
Redick has no business talking basketball when he has no respect for it's early years, pioneers, and hall of famers. His predecessors helped grow the sport so that spoiled nobodies like him could play.
Shaq agreeing with his is the silliest part. Which team drafted him again? How dominat was he as a rookie? Who'd he play in the playoffs? He's agreeing with saying that he watered down the league.
This is the problem with these kinds of podcasts. The famous person gets to say an off the cuff, unsupported comment. Then we need guys like Johnny who have a much smaller audience to put things in perspective. And guess which take goes viral. Thanks Johnny for doing the research that talking heads won't do or won't talk about!
Expansion didn't water the NBA down. It stopped the best teams having stacked teams. It also gave more players a chance to make the grade. So many great players were forced overseas before this. JJ is a red dick for saying that. Sick of the media.
That’s literally what watering down is. Same thing as how demonstrating how stacked the Celtics were in the 60’s, and how they benefited from trades not existing
Did expansion really do that, though? It didn't stop the LeBron Heat. It didn't stop the Warriors death lineup. It didn't stop the Spurs from dominating the West for, like, a decade. Not that Reddick is right, but expansion does not actually address the inequities in markets. No amount of NBA lottery, free agency or salary cap is going to make living in Minnesota more appealing to a NBA star than New York or Los Angeles. No amount of NBA lottery, free agency, or salary cap is going to prevent players from colluding to increase their own marketability in terms of endorsements and appearance fees.
@@Bennet2408 so allowing teams that otherwise wouldn’t even qualify has helped the league? Interesting considering we also have teams winning the inaugural in season tournament losing in form of a gentlemen’s sweep in the first round. Hey #GoOff though.
@@Gtdubb1obviously. A team that made the play in last year literally made the finals. It encourages more intensity from lower seeding teams that would have normally given up and started tanking in the old days. It makes the end of the season worth something for those young upstart teams
@@Gtdubb1what correlation does the in season tournament have to do with the playoffs? It's before the trade deadline, playoff intensity, tight rotations etc.
@@Intr0vertical the in season tournament and the play in tournament are both gimmicks that take away from the league. If the play in is meaningful then you definitely shouldn’t have the in season champion losing after qualifying via the play in. If we are really being honest the in season champion shouldn’t be in the play in if it is also meaningful.
Take it out your mouth. He didn't even play basketball at the youth level, too chubby. Knows nothing on ball. Only knows encyclopedias and BBall Reference stats.
🎯 I said this all in my head but Jonny is here to actually articulate it in a presentable form 🙂😁 JJ is just the latest Narrative pusher of these clowns today desperately and unreasonably trying to discredit anything before 2000s basketball. its pathetic. There has to be respect for the game and history
Great arguments and video, Jonny! I guess I can see where JJ is coming from, but it is a stretch. As you mentioned, half of the six teams became pretty solid teams - and 69-70 wins would still be a very high level of wins (tied for first at the time with the former and still having the most number of wins with 70). I'm not a fan of how Redick has often bashed past eras of NBA history either. As I mentioned in a comment on one of your previous videos, I think there's much to appreciate during each era of NBA basketball. Have a great week :).
I heard people talking about JJ's podcast. I listened to it once. I didn't even make it the whole way through. JJ is made for ESPN. He is such an ignorant smug bastard.
Redick has no business talking basketball when he has no respect for it's early years, pioneers, and hall of famers. His predecessors helped grow the sport so that spoiled nobodies like him could play.
Gotta be honest, I’m a Lebron fan, and I mostly like JJ. But honestly, it seems like JJ is straight up on Brons payroll. He may be tipping the conversation a bit, but overall, this Bron JJ linkup might end up hurting more than helping. Especially if JJ ends up coaching the Lakers
People like to pretend those 6 expansion teams came into the league all at once instead of spread out over time. There was also a boom of talent at the college ranks plus the Euro pros that were starting to come over, so it's not like those new roster spots were filled with bums.
Two teams came in back to back in 88-89, then two teams came in back to back in 95-96. Yeah, they came in kinda all at once through Jordan's title winning days.
@@a-a-rondavis9438 That is not in any way an objective standard for "all at once" when the last two teams came in 7 years after the middle two. Plus, like Jonny eludes to in the video even if the Raptors and Grizzlies didn't come in at all it's not likely to change much about the Bulls and the rest of the league. I won't argue that the league wasn't at least a little bit watered down, I just think people dramatically exaggerate it and only because of Michael Jordan. If Jordan's Bulls didn't win as many titles or if LeBron had won more to become the GOAT, this most likely doesn't get brought up at all.
@@davidmartinez52420I forgot, throw in 2 more teams in 90 as well. The league was inundated with brand new teams as soon as Jordan and Pippen started making waves.
@@a-a-rondavis9438 No 2 teams in 1990. Just 2 in 1988, 2 in 1989, then the final 2 in 1995(which were finalized before Jordan returned). This way of framing it to make it seem like all 6 of them came in at once is deceitful.
The logic doesn't make sense to me because if adding teams waters the league down then that would mean the league is still watered down. It isn't like they filled those positions with non-nba talent. They filled it with NBA talent just like they are now.
No. Because expansion only waters down the league in the first few years of expansion. The league is fine now because all the teams are balanced after decades without an expansion
@@Intr0vertical That doesn't make sense. Simply because they aren't going to win a lot the first few seasons doesn't mean the league was watered down. You literally have bad teams every year. The Pistons this year had one of the worst seasons ever in NBA history does that mean the league is watered down now? The idea the league is balanced after decades is silly. The league used NBA level talent to build the expansion teams just like they do now.
I respect the fact that he played many years in the NBA, even though he was mostly a bench guy. But dissing the great Larry Bird and other great legends is where I lose that respect for him
Jordan era "watered down"??? The league expanded because the talent available was ABLE to support more teams. Of the top 160 players of All Time, 81 of them had PRIME YEARS that overlapped with Jordan's career. He played against prime: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Kobe Bryant Julius Erving Tim Duncan Shaquille O'Neal Kevin Garnett Karl Malone Dirk Nowitzki Moses Malone Larry Bird Magic Johnson Hakeem Olajuwon George Gervin Isiah Thomas Artis Gilmore Charles Barkley Allen Iverson Patrick Ewing David Robinson Clyde Drexler John Stockton Jason Kidd Ray Allen Paul Pierce Michael Cooper Ron Harper Rod Strickland Robert Parish Dominique Wilkins Gary Payton Steve Nash Alex English Dikembe Mutombo Vince Carter Yao Ming Jack Sikma Kevin McHale James Worthy Alonzo Mourning Grant Hill Tracy McGrady Adrian Dantley Walter Davis Joe Dumars Mitch Richmond Shawn Kemp Jermaine O'Neal Pau Gasol Tony Parker Bobby Jones Dennis Johnson Sidney Moncrief Chris Mullin Reggie Miller Tim Hardaway Chris Webber Chauncey Billups Bernard King Bill Laimbeer Ralph Sampson Tom Chambers Alvin Robertson Mark Price Anfernee Hardaway Rasheed Wallace Ben Wallace Shawn Marion Larry Nance Mark Aguirre Kevin Johnson Glen Rice Richard Hamilton Bill Walton Kiki Vandeweghe Dennis Rodman Jerry Stackhouse Stephon Marbury Antawn Jamison Baron Davis Sam Cassel Ron Artest
@@Jsayoungin LeChoke is a professional sandbagging stat-padder. He's made every player around him, worse while they do all the work, carrying him. Jordan had Robin. LeYourFault needs the whole Justice League and still needs ref help just to make playoffs. Not a top 5 player.
@@DipsAndPushups Drazen was lethal for 2 years before he died young, but not enough to make any All Time lists. He was nuts tho. Talked trash to Jordan and didn't back down
JJ is on the LeBron payroll, so his job is to degrade former greats, especially Michael Jordan, in order to promote LeBron. The thing is this: The longer LeBron plays, the more it hurts his legacy and elevates Jordan's. How does it does that? Because it shows you just how great Mike was by the way he accomplished so much in a shorter period of time. LeBron James has been playing since the late 1960's and hasn't achieved what Jordan did.
JJ's stupid. In the 10 years of the 80s the Dallas Mavericks made the playoffs 6 times. They made the playoffa in their 4th year with players like Mark Aguirre? Rolando Blackman and Brad Davis. They had Detlef Schremf, Dale Ellis, Derek Harper and James Donaldson. That team wasn't garbage. The 80s had to expand because the players were so good and they needed jobs i.e. playing time. That's why the Magic, Heat and the Hornets got so good so quickly. Good players needed some 🔥 burn...you think Mark Aguirre's getting some 🔥 playing behind Larry Bird in the 80's? JJ's so dumb. He's making his case to coach someday but as GM or an NBA historian? Nah, bruv.
The Mavericks were pretty good, but part of why they were as good as they were was because of the extra draft picks they had that the Cavaliers gave them. Trading draft picks for players on an expansion team is a dumb idea in my opinion.
But this video is so dumb. The point isn’t that the expansion teams were bad. The point is they took good players from drafts and free agency which could have been on other teams that Jordan faced in later rounds. That’s why Jordan never faced real super teams and could go 6-0 in the finals, because the talent was spread across more teams. It’s not rocket science.
And yes there are more teams now too but there are way more great players now, as the sport has developed so much since the 90s (hence all these foreign MVP’s for example). So Jordan and the Dream Team promoted basketball to the world, but before all those new talents could come in the existing crop of players was spread across more teams exactly during Jordan’s prime, making every opponent he faced less likely to win the matchup with the Bulls’ superteam. So it shouldn’t discredit Jordan necessarily, but the whole 6-0 crutch is pretty stupid. I’d like to see Jordan’s “elite mentality” against that Warriors team with KD.
@@Akashic85 the talent looks different when u can't play actual defense and they don't call traveling or carrying....that's why the playoffs look so different these days cause players can't do what they was doing in the regular season...idk why it's so hard to see....Mr King James himself your so called goat says there is alot of players that don't belong in the nba and his son could start in the league when his son ain't even good 😂
@@MakaveliCVWlet's not forget that players in the 90's couldn't shoot past 15 feet which is why they shortened the line for them lmao. Now adays you have players that can pull up from the logo on the regular. I'd like to see those 90's teams try to defend the players of today.
As always all your video takes, rebuttals, and disproving all the main stream/pod cast paid narratives are on point!!! Wish all these videos of yours could be played on all the main stream networks (ESPN, FOX Sports 1, etc..)
I don't think the argument is that the Bulls benefited from playing bad expansion teams, the argument is that every team was less good than it would have been because overall basketball talent in the era was being spread more widely across the NBA.
Shaq sat there and did nothing. Even agreed with him. These are the tough guys you idolize. JJ probably could of had his girl. Shaq would have sat quiet and watched.
JJ literally thinks he's better than The Logo, which is endlessly laughable. The only thing clutch about JJ over Mr. Clutch, is his where his paycheck comes from. Ooops, I misspelled Klutch.
JJ is acting like Jordan only played against the expansion teams. JJ wants to hype his man's resume. LeBron just played longer. The Mavs didn't play the Bulls when they were an expansion team. How many of those expansion teams did Jordan play against & how many games did he play against them?
Like 6 games a season. JJ and the Lebron stans make points that work if you are ignorant of the History. They are preaching to non-NBA fans, in order to get praise of man.
@@Q-bazZ Never faced Bird in finals when they did play Bird never lost a series to MJ. Magic at end of career, no Kareem. Jazz had 2 players, the rest average. Sonics one of the weakest 60 win teams ever, what other superstar did Barkley have? Any other questions?
@josipmarasovic2436 Is that why I made a video saying this current era is the most talented I’ve ever seen?? Lmao. Maybe I’m not biased for past eras, but MAYBE I actually just know about them, and respect their talent, unlike many analysts and fans today…
@@jonnyarnett so what did i said wrong then?? i just said u are bias about old basketball and most of times i agree but thats just the truth u prefer old players and thats fine. man ive been watch u for long time if i didnt think u are normal person i would not sub or even watch.
@@josipmarasovic2436 u saying he is bias is what u said that was wrong, it's not bias he actually knows about it unlike most people who talk about something they never witnessed which actually makes them bias u can be credible when u haven't seem it but still pretend u know what your talking about
While im not a plumber, i have worked for a roofing company, for a landfill and in the woods so i know about hard work. JJ wouldn't make the cut in any of those jobs.
@@greggibson33 maybe but JJ routinely calls better ball players than himself firemen and plumbers like that's even a diss. Plumbers are well paid and firemen are generally looked at as heroes, so JJ "disses" players greater than himself calling them occupations that he wouldn't/couldn't be able to do.
@@greggibson33 Nah it ain't like that, last thing I'd ever be ashamed of is hard work but I've never had a problem manifesting what I want or need into reality. A 9-5 is just money to invest other places.
@@noname-hf9ty Kenny had 5.5 assists and 1 steal to JJ's 2 and 0.4 and also shot a higher FG%. Both would be water servers in any era, but Kenny was a decent role player who fit well in Houston's system. JJ was not a good fit and a consistent underperformer in LA; Doc is mocked for giving him and Jamal Crawford so much playing time.
Redick has no business talking basketball when he has no respect for it's early years, pioneers, and hall of famers. His predecessors helped grow the sport so that spoiled nobodies like him could play.
First, I appreciate your channel. Thank you for all the work you put in to bring context to the league/sport I love to watch. Now, I think the "watered down" remarks is a way of saying that in the 90's, there was no one else like Jordan in the league and the player who could arguably come close to him, played by his side, so it was easy for Jordan to dominate. Karl Malone was the only other player to average 30 ppg during the 90's.
3 big issues you missed 1. Bj Armstrong was made available because his salary and discontentment, not talent. They then had more money to spend on their 2nd 3-peat 2. Expansion doesn’t just make the expansion teams worse, it lowers the quality of the entire league until the player quality catches up. Going from 23 teams to 30 means 7 more teams worth of players had to be found. Reddick was technically 100 correct, as more teams were fighting over the same players 3. This happens in all sports, not just basketball. Many records are broken in expansion years, including Roger Maris in 61. Expansion years and a few years after usually have a slightly lower level of play and more extreme outlier seasons for players and teams.
So Bird, Rodman, Wilt, Dr. J and quite a few of the past greats have said this before. They just get tossed to the wayside. But now that JJ says it, it can be addressed since its JJ and not Larry Bird and Rodman who played in both decades and owned Jordan.
@@Sf75178 By having a winning record and never losing to him in the playoffs, winning rings on his watch blah blah blah. Juat pretend Jordan is Bron and Bird is Curry I'm sure you'll be showering me with info lmao
@andrewcook1246 the team has a winning record it was never 1v1. Jordan was always the best player on the court, he was not owned, the team was I never NEVER use team record for or against a player yet you sit there and say I would.
Did you watch the video?? I understand that... but the Bulls are not exempt.. so how is MJ taking advantage of the fact that HIS team is usually losing THEIR players FIRST in the expansion draft?
@@jonnyarnett it's not like it's Jordan's fault, but overall having less deep teams will always benefit the top heavy ones, and if your office is smart enough to draft properly you'll be dominant in the league for years, not like today, nowadays a free agent season can easily destroy your roster. that's why we won't ever see dynasties Like the 90's bulls again, even if the talent pool today is deeper than years before and you have higher chances of drafting great talent in the second round (jokic,brunson, green,butler). Team building is harder today, that doesn't take away any merit of what Jordan did, in fact it is only possible because of the hard work of legends of the past that we have a more competitive league nowadays
@@jonnyarnett Let’s say we have the Bucks and the Knicks, The Bucks lose Middleton and Beverly and the Knicks lose Hartenstein and Achiuwa. Would Giannis not have an easier time dominating against this weak rotation than the previous rotation even without Middleton?
@@Mogollita_actually team building is much easier today as free agency is player driven now. In ether era, it comes down to teams being better at accumulating talent. L.A. revamped their roster a few years ago and won a championship. While other teams like the Hornets continue to struggle. There are more teams and players in the league today than the 90s. Doesn’t that mean the league is more watered down now. And if we are looking at it from the fewer the better angle. Does take mean the Celtics from the 60s are the best teams ever and Wilt and Russell are whom we should be debating as the best players ever?
@@jonnyarnett In other words, it’s easier to play two rotations of a tired Mitch Rob and Bojan and a tired I Hart and Achiuwa than play one refreshed rotation of all 4.
The big issue is no one nowadays cares to do any sort of research. They just go with whatever is being told to them on these player podcasts! I’ve seen so many videos and comments of kids who know little to nothing about MJ and his career and just repeat the same shit they hear on tik tok about him not using his left
Nope In the 90s guys came to play no off day unless they that injured no load management and back then it wasn't cheap foul calls and ppl actually played defense the NBA was full of grown men
You have failed to capture the way expansion teams water down the league. If, at the start of Jordan's career it was a 300 men league, and, by the end, it was 400 men, assuming no change in the talent pool, every team is worse.
@@shorewallhow can you people never use basic logic and reasoning? The talent level has risen BECAUSE the player count hasn't changed. There's tons of players today whom are not in the league that would be NBA players in the 90's.
watered down? i dont know about that, but 1 thing is clear. Half the NBA players of the 90s wouldnt play in todays NBA. They werent good enough Edit: i also believe JJ Redick doesnt mean the league was watered down, because of the expension teams, but rather because the new teams made every team worse in general
@@Sf75178 wouldnt make it still. the talent nowadays comes from all over the world. the skill ceiling of the average NBA player today is simply way higher
@killadiator1014 oh the skill ceiling is higher. Well that explains why there is the gather step, constant travelling, palming and carrying the ball to make it easier fir them
@@Sf75178 man, look at all statistics you want, every metric will show you that todays average NBA would absolutly smoke players back then. Main reason for that ist, that today way more people try to get in the league, so obviously the players who get in, are way better
@killadiator1014 today's players would face different rules/enforcement and playing style. You are judging past players based on today's rule enforcement and playing style which is tge dumbest thing you can do
Isn't it crazy how they try to downplay Jordan and his era for years now? I wonder what fanbase, agency and player is behind that? You all know who I'm talking about and let's not act like he doesn't promote it.
Maybe it was watered down but one thing is fact - Jordan's Bulls never faced an all time great teams in any of their 6 finals. MJ couldn't have timed his career better. The dynasties of the Lakers, Celtics and Pistons were ending and all of the superstars were aging out. Not one team the Bulls faced in the finals were even close to the Big 3. As usual, luck plays into legacies.
Lebron lost in the finals in his prime with the Big 3 to Dirk and the Expendables, and to Duncan and a bunch of mid level Euros and a raw Kawhi, who wasn't anything close to what he would become. He and the Big 3 in Miami beat a young Thunder Team that didn't win anything ever, and barely beat that old Spurs team that came back to whoop his ass and drive him out of Miami the next year. And with another Super team in Cleveland, he barely beat the Warriors, who then whooped his ass the next two years. And in 2020, in the bubble, he and AD beat an injured Heat team. So not only less championships that MJ, but more losses, and where were the victories over all time teams? One over the Warriors, perhaps, with Super team #2? Those are also facts.
So we faulting Jordan for not allowing teams to beat him to boost their legacy? Pistons were the 2x defending champs and were still young when Jordan beat them. Magic was only 31 and second in MVP voting when Jordan beat him. Jordan has beaten the most 60 win teams in playoffs history. Maybe he should’ve lost more
@@suntansuperman26 Not allowing? What? 60 wins don't mean much if they're judged against all time great teams. Not one team in the 6 finals was anywhere near considered great. As i said, MJ couldn't have timed his career any better. No prime Bird. No prime Magic. No Kareem. Never faced Erving, Moses or Hakeem. No Superteams. Doesn't mean he's less of a player but it adds context to the revisionist history ball washers who think he never missed a shot.
@@greggibson33 In order to be considered an all time great team you have to win, Jordan didn’t allow his team to lose in the Finals. Had Jordan lost you probably would’ve looked at those teams differently but since Jordan won you down play how good those teams actually were, it’s like he was a victim of his own success. You can’t time your career, he took his licks and got better until he eventually got on top. You’re saying he didn’t play against prime Dr. J or Kareem, you faulting Jordan for being born later or something? Magic was still in his prime, man was 31 years old and second to Jordan in MVP voting when Jordan beat him, but now all of a sudden he’s out of his prime. Hakeem? It’s Jordan’s fault Hakeem couldn’t make it back to the Finals when he came back? The same teams that took Hakeem out Jordan took out
I haven’t watched the full video yet, but I’ll just say that I do believe the league lowkey was watered down in the 90s because of expansion, but that wasn’t Jordan’s fault. He didn’t control the talent he played against. It shouldn’t take away from what he accomplished, because if so how come the other top players didn’t take advantage of this talent drop and win their own championships?
The most 50 and 60 win teams where in the 90s. LeBron was playing in a weakass conference and player in a league that saw terrible lowlights from this year's Pistons, the 2011 Cavs and the 15 and 16 Sixers. Jordan's era did see bad showings from the Mavs, Nuggets and Clippers though. JJ is correct on expanaion but JJ clearly cares about the G.O.A.T. debate as he called Larry's competition "plumbers and firemen" while he would fit that description to a tee if he played then!!! Why not built up today's era inatead of tearing the past down?
Not that those in the 50-60 win range in the 90’s weren’t good, but some have argued that the expansion teams and a few others that sucked inflated their records a bit.
you really missed the point Redick made. League was much stronger in 80s cause all the stars and best players had to be fit in fewer teams. It's like deleting 8 nba teams now, and sharing their players into other teams. In 2000s more international players started to arrive, and the league become stronger and stronger up to 2010s. So yeah, it's not a ridiculous take, you just missed the point. If there is fewer teams and still only the best players, the league gets stronger. If you need a empirical prove, you can take some contenders from late 90s and compare them to some late 80s, or late 2000s teams. Jazz teams which made finals were WORSE then Jazz teams in 89,or 92. Pacers contending teams wouldn't make ECF in any other era after the merger (maybe in 70s- the league was also pretty weak back then). Not hating the era, it was good basketball, and amazing time to be a fan. Just there wasn't enough amazing players in every team, to serve an elite quality product.
Even Dennis Rodman said what JJ Redick said. Not now. Dennis said that in the 96 season. When the Bulls went 72-10. You know, the 2nd greatest team ever. And the 3rd best guy on that team agreed with JJ even 28 years earlier. It's just basic maths, as JJ is rightly saying. 90 more players, 6 more teams who aren't good coming in. Even if the players they had were good, the teams will just be bad for the first few years. And that's ok. The league was watered down in MJs prime, because those expansion teams (exept the Magic and the Heat for you smart***es pointing them out). But the time span of MJs prime and the expansion team becoming great just dont overlap fully. The Magic do, but the Heat only were good after 96. That still leaves 4 bad teams, and more 'easy' games for MJs Bulls to win
I mean did MJ face those "bad expansion" teams en route to the championship? Worst case scenario the Bulls don't end up 72-10 in 1997, but that's hardly a case against MJ. Adding those expansion teams doesn't change who he played in the playoffs and doesn't stop him from 3peating twice.
@@Bennet2408 He didn't win his rings against the expansion teams though. Even if the argument is correct, then it accounts for a handful of games during the regular season. His team lost players, other teams lost players, the best made it to the playoffs, and MJ beat those teams. So how does the expansion affect his rings? It would if the Bulls didn't lose players, but they did as well.
The watered down argument sounds as ridiculous as the asterisks they put on Lebron's rings. JJ's point was that you can technically put an asterisk on anything, he wasn't saying that era was garbage. He said this to Shaq, so obviously he wasn't disrespecting the era. He was saying there's slights against MJ's era just like there are against the current. Basically people need to stop thinking lowlights and flaws in rules or very specific and unique situations can downplay someone's greatness. Jordan is great, Russell is great, LeBron is great. Overall everyone should stop using the goat debate as an excuse to shit on a player who could destroy them 1v1 in a suit in loafers with 0 difficulty at age 40 LoL. Scalebrine made the difference in ability between regular folk and them very clear and people should just compliment the talent without disrespecting them with these takes that revolve around negativity. Be happy and have fun
Please correct me if im wrong, but the logic of JJ argument does not make sense. Did the league remain water-down until today since the same number of teams are still in existence?
It being watered down is when those teams are in their formative years, while the expansion and the draft “evens out” the talent in the league. That’s why he said the league would be watered down for a couple years if they added new teams today
Yes, it does mean that. Except the talent pool from which players are drawn has expanded. Take the NBA today, and get rid of all the Euro players. The teams would not be as good. Also, take the NBA and contract it by 7 teams, spreading the best players from those teams over the remaking 23. The quality of every team would improve.
The only two that really qualify as "super teams" failed because they were all old when they teamed up. Barkley joined the Rockets to ring chase and Pippen also old replaced Drexler in 99 and also failed.
@@CrazyxEnigma Yeah, and maybe Portland in 2000? Either way, their stars were old and trying to win more rings at the end of their career. I am pretty sure both a prime Barkley joining the Sonics or a prime Hakeem joining the Jazz could have beat the Bulls.
WHY is SO much attention paid to anything this guy says? He won zero rings, no all star appearances. Let it go, basketball people. He says things to stir the pot which is not a legit reason.
To be honest, he's probably the 2nd biggest name among analysts right now behind Stephen A Smith. Regardless of how he was as a Basketball player, his opinions and his podcast gains attention, which is why it needs to be addressed, otherwise you'll see even more people agreeing with him.
@@jonnyarnettJJ first called players from the 1950s and 60s plumbers and fireman. He was’t even addressing the 70s, 80s, and 90s. But now kids just call anyone “before their time” plumbers and fireman. I see kids today calling the 2000s NBA plumbers.
@@jonnyarnett But he's the loudmouth in the classroom who acts up for attention. I'll never forget the "plumber" remark; and anyone making that kind of remark needs to sit in the corner and have his channel shut off. And let's not get started on SAS. If those 2, along with Kendrick, are the biggest basketball analysts right now, we're in trouble. Now if someone like, say, Jonny Arnett was up there in name, easy ratings win share. My TV would be locked in and scheduled for the JA Show...best believe.
I never understood the "watered-down league" criticism. The best teams remained the best teams. The additions might have made for easier wins in their first seasons, but they were unlikely to make it to the playoffs. The playoffs were for the usual suspects. Championships weren't won or lost because of those expansion teams.
I hate that JJ Reddick disrespects great players of the past. He doesn’t respect the amazing people that gave him the opportunity to make so much money playing basketball.
What bothers me,is that Shaq said at the end. A little bit. He forgot that his team, eliminated the bulls. And the magic were one of the best teams in the 90s🤷
My answer to your question is ANOTHER QUESTION: Joe Dumars, John Stockton, Nate McMillan, Gary Payton, Clyde Drexler, Dennis Rodman, Larry Nance, Anthony Mason, Charles Barkley were all defensive plumbers??? And I'm NOT talking about THE CENTERS... NOW YOU TELL ME (IF YOU HAVE ENOUGH KNOWLEDGE...)
Yeah, there’s definitively a LITTLE bit. Raptors and Grizzlies were cakewalks in that first season… but like I said, I think it’s negligible in a Goat debate. Add expansion teams to the league right now… doesn’t change the fact that LeBron’s biggest concern is Denver. Lol
@@jonnyarnett yeah cause I was like wait a minute - a lot of bad new players did come in, but when u made the calculations on how many actual games that affected Jordan’s team records and stuff.. it’s just not significant at all to even make the slightest difference in the goat “debate”.
@@Josh.Pointer 12 of the top 20 all time steals leaders are from the 90's and 13 of the top 20 all time shot blockers are from the 90's! 3 of the 4 players to record a quadruple double are from the 90's, 3 of the 5 players to win MVP and DPOY in their careers are from the 90's, 2 of the 3 players to win MVP and DPOY in the same season are from the 90's, the only player to ever win MVP, DPOY, Finals MVP and the ring in the same season is from the 90's! No other era comes close
People need to remember that in 30 years, the young A’s gonna be saying that LBJ played against housekeepers and babysitters, or whatever the next stupid saying is. MJ is the GOAT in my eyes. If MJ played today, they’d probably change the rules back to the 80’ and 90’s rule enforcement because they’d say it’s too easy for him and they have to try to even the playing field.
Is JJ really gonna sit there and pretend that every team in the NBA is competitive? The Hornets, the Pistons, the Wizards, the Spurs, the Blazers, the Nets... As if every team now has an all-star and top-tier talent and coaching.
just a small thought, fewer teams harder to dominate, during our league when the teams were only 6. it was very hard for a single team to win all 3 conferences in a season. now the size was doubled we see 2 teams dominate for the past 7 years. getting 18 of the possible 21 conferences. of course in theory this should balance out in time...but the dominance has been set. and they just gobble up title after title.
